From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 02:04:00 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 03:04:00 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] smtpfs
----- Original Message -----
From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@messagingdirect.com>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
> How do you handle the case where the RCPT TO address doesn't
> match the To: header address? They don't have to be the same.
>
this is ridiculous. read the RFC's.
how do think delivery works?
BCC TO
i think not.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 04:09:58 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:09:58 0900
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
cpu -c "command" will do the same as rx <hosname> "command".
There is no CPU command to let the job doing on the CPU server
even after the user logged off from the terminal.
Is it difficult to implement this function?
Kenji
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 06:03:46 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:03:46 -0500
From: Russ Cox 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
cpu -c "command" will do the same as rx <hosname> "command".
There is no CPU command to let the job doing on the CPU server
even after the user logged off from the terminal.
Is it difficult to implement this function?
As long as you set up the resources properly,
rx host "command &" should work, no?
(It's going to fail if, say, you don't
redirect standard output and the process
writes something after you log off.)
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 07:27:17 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:27:17 0900
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
Thanks Russ.
I tired
term% rx diabase 'du / &'
command, and it continues to run after I logged out from the
terminal. (This command consumes about 80 seconds in my
system when output is directed to stdout.).
However,
>(It's going to fail if, say, you don't
>redirect standard output and the process
>writes something after you log off.)
occurred.
How I can redirect the output from the du command to say,
/usr/okamoto/ken.
I tried following two.
(1) rx diabase 'du / &' >/usr/okamoto/ken
(2) rx diabase 'du / & >/usr/okamoto/ken'
In case (1), the output upto the time I logged out is wrote to
/usr/okamoto/ken, and in case (2), no output is kept.
Kenji
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 08:21:19 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:21:19 +0200
From: Lucio De Re 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 04:27:17PM +0000, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
>
> I tried following two.
> (1) rx diabase 'du / &' >/usr/okamoto/ken
> (2) rx diabase 'du / & >/usr/okamoto/ken'
>
> In case (1), the output upto the time I logged out is wrote to
> /usr/okamoto/ken, and in case (2), no output is kept.
>
The right one is: rx diabase 'du / >/usr/okamoto/ken &'
the "&" actually terminates the command, so the redirection occurs as a
separate, later command. The reason it works in the first instance is
more obscure :-) It is because the "rx" command terminates when you log
out.
++L
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 09:08:03 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:08:03 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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>>(2) rx diabase 'du / & >/usr/okamoto/ken'
rx diabase 'du / >/usr/okamoto/ken &'
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Subject: Re: [9fans] usage of CPU server
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Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:27:17 0900
Thanks Russ.
I tired
term% rx diabase 'du / &'
command, and it continues to run after I logged out from the
terminal. (This command consumes about 80 seconds in my
system when output is directed to stdout.).
However,
>(It's going to fail if, say, you don't
>redirect standard output and the process
>writes something after you log off.)
occurred.
How I can redirect the output from the du command to say,
/usr/okamoto/ken.
I tried following two.
(1) rx diabase 'du / &' >/usr/okamoto/ken
(2) rx diabase 'du / & >/usr/okamoto/ken'
In case (1), the output upto the time I logged out is wrote to
/usr/okamoto/ken, and in case (2), no output is kept.
Kenji
--upas-czsngikpkfrvtfusmdrwyfidvp--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 09:34:30 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 04:34:30 -0500
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] RCPT TO
>From: boyd@planete.net
>>From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon@messagingdirect.com>
>> How do you handle the case where the RCPT TO address doesn't
>> match the To: header address? They don't have to be the same.
>this is ridiculous. read the RFC's.
>how do think delivery works?
> BCC TO
>i think not.
Say what, Boyd? Lyndon was noting that the arguments to the
RCPT TO command(s) don't have to have any relation to the contents
of the To: line(s) in the RFC822 body, which is quite true.
Have *you* read the RFC's? I think not.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 09:53:02 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:53:02 0900
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
Thanks a lot, Lucio and Charles.
Yes, it did work right. I get headache usually when I read man pages
of sh/csh/rc. ^_^
Kenji
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 10:03:10 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:03:10 +0200
From: Lucio De Re 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 06:53:02PM +0000, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
>
> Yes, it did work right. I get headache usually when I read man pages
> of sh/csh/rc. ^_^
>
David Korn <dkg@research.att.com> has written a book about the Korn
shell, which seems greatly respected in development circles. The new
Korn shell is quite novel, but its roots are in the Bourne shell of yore
and David's knowledge is probably unsurpassed.
Of course, Tom Duff did a better job with RC, but he had no legacy to
contend with; he could _learn_ from previous mistakes instead of having
to be compatible with them.
++L
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 09:47:03 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 100 09:46:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Hohensee 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>
> On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 06:53:02PM +0000, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> >
> > Yes, it did work right. I get headache usually when I read man pages
> > of sh/csh/rc. ^_^
> >
> David Korn <dkg@research.att.com> has written a book about the Korn
> shell, which seems greatly respected in development circles. The new
> Korn shell is quite novel, but its roots are in the Bourne shell of yore
> and David's knowledge is probably unsurpassed.
>
> Of course, Tom Duff did a better job with RC, but he had no legacy to
> contend with; he could _learn_ from previous mistakes instead of having
> to be compatible with them.
>
> ++L
>
More flame bait:
The -n test, "newer than" I believe entered unix shells with the Korn
shell. IMNNSHO (In My Notoriously Not So Humble Opinion), that obsoleted
the "make" utility.
It also seems like much of the POSIX spec for the shell is from Korn,
where it's not from Bourne. This is the impression of someone who's never
actually seen a POSIX in real life.
Rick Hohensee
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 15:19:58 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:19:58 -0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
> More flame bait:
>
> The -n test, "newer than" I believe entered unix shells with the Korn
> shell. IMNNSHO (In My Notoriously Not So Humble Opinion), that obsoleted
> the "make" utility.
>
Which bit of the Korn shell models the dependency graph?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 17:09:16 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:09:16 GMT
From: Lyndon Nerenberg 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] smtpfs
>>>>> "Boyd" == Boyd Roberts <boyd@planete.net> writes:
>> How do you handle the case where the RCPT TO address doesn't
>> match the To: header address? They don't have to be the same.
Boyd> this is ridiculous. read the RFC's.
I have. (I've been doing MTA development for 15 years.)
Boyd> how do think delivery works?
By issuing a RCPT TO command via SMTP. The SMTP protocol has no
knowledge of the To: header in the message body. While it is very
often the case that the address(es) in the To: header match those
in the RCPT TO command(s), there is no requirement that this be
the case.
The behaviour you described seems to match that of "sendmail -t"
submission, in which case the RCPT TO recipients are derived from
the To:, Cc:, and Bcc: headers. This works in most cases, but
doesn't provide complete functionality in that you cannot have
SMTP envelope recipient addresses that are distinct from the RFC822
header recipient list.
And then there is the issue of MAIL FROM vs From:. It's much more
common for these to be different from each other (e.g. mailing lists).
And you still haven't explained how this will handle DSNs. Or message
tracking. Or SMTP AUTH.
--lyndon
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 17:13:30 2000
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 18:13:30 +0100
From: Henner Gratz 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Does 9fans-digest still exist?
Hello!
I haven't got a digest for a relative long. Does this list still exist?
(I've tried to mail to 9fans-digest-request, but got an "unknown user" error.)
Any hints?
regards,
Henner Gratz
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 18:21:08 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:21:08 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
boyd fell into the RFC trap by naming the service /n/smtp.
of course, smtp provides a few features that aren't captured
by that interface, both in the primary RFC and in the set of
derived ones.
rename it /chan/postoffice, do exactly the same thing, and it
should be fine. in fact, `smtp' is too specific anyhow, since you
might be using another delivery method in the postoffice.
if you're a real masochist, it might be x.400 (or
whatever the correct x.number might be); i still fondly remember those
x.400/rfc822 gateways in the uk. infrastructure.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 18:24:03 2000
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:24:03 -0500
From: Dharani Vilwanathan 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Does 9fans-digest still exist?
Hi,
I think it tries to match the mailid of the request mail with the one you used
for subscribing the mailling list. If there is a mismatch, it causes trouble.
Regards
dharani
Henner Gratz wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I haven't got a digest for a relative long. Does this list still exist?
> (I've tried to mail to 9fans-digest-request, but got an "unknown user" error.)
>
> Any hints?
>
> regards,
>
> Henner Gratz
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 19:58:24 2000
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:58:24 -0500
From: Scott Schwartz 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Does 9fans-digest still exist?
| I haven't got a digest for a relative long.
| Does this list still exist?
Yes, and you're still on the list (hpg@logistik.uni-bremen.de), but not
on the digest.
More generally, if mail bounces for too long, you'll be unsubscribed
automatically.
| (I've tried to mail to 9fans-digest-request, but got an "unknown user" error.)
Send to 9fans-request, or use the web page
http://lists.cse.psu.edu/mailing_lists/listinfo/9fans
(The local sysadmins recently switched all our mailing lists to this
new system; there may be some wrinkles still.)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 20:00:33 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:00:33 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
From: <forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk>
> boyd fell into the RFC trap by naming the service /n/smtp.
thanks. yes i should have called it something else: /n/rfc822
or /chan/postoffice.
it's sendmail -t funtionality that i want; reading the
destinations out of the headers. this does work. it has
nothing to do with smtp until the message gets sent via
smtp and i never envisioned an MTA dumping messages into
it, just the user agent.
russ told me that it would serve no purpose, but i
'counter attacked' :-) importing it off the firewall.
a free proxy; code running on the the firewall with
9P/styx gluing it to wherever it's needed.
how many plan 9 programmers does it take to change a
lightbulb? none, you just import one from somewhere
else :-)
if i could concentrate at work, i'd probably code
it. that, is the impossible part: 32 in a open plan
office, 32 phones, 32+ mobiles. by the time i've
'survived' the day i'm just too knackered to do
anything but veg out on the sofa, with 'coma' [my
sony vaio 505].
yesterday's brilliant achievement was:
chmod 775 dir
even better than the day of:
mkdir d1
mkdir d2
seriously, i get paid to do that. 18 years of unix,
15 years of IP -- wasted.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 20:47:31 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:47:31 -0500
From: Russ Cox 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
russ told me that it would serve no purpose, but i
'counter attacked' :-) importing it off the firewall.
a free proxy; code running on the the firewall with
9P/styx gluing it to wherever it's needed.
even after all this discussion,
i still don't think it serves any purpose.
the data only flows in one direction, and
only in one format. file servers are good
for handling interactive resources or
resources with complex presentations.
mail delivery is neither.
people have pointed out that it's like
sendmail -t. so have upas/marshal -t,
which i agree would be useful.
want to get the service from a firewall?
instead of marshal -t, do rx firewall marshal -t.
to me, it feels a lot more like a good
pipeline piece than a full-blown filesystem.
russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 21:48:56 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:48:56 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
From: Russ Cox <rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com>
> even after all this discussion,
> i still don't think it serves any purpose.
i understand what you're saying. i just don't agree.
given i smash a template into sam with B and then
hand up 'f /n/postoffice' and with one mouse click
[write] in can send it.
for years i've been using an MH like mail user agent:
com
<creates template and then uses B>
del
<delivers it>
anyway, a difference of opinion, i can cope with that :-)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:02:33 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:02:33 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
> given i smash a template into sam with B ...
B is acredited to me for the unix sam, but it wasn't
my idea. rob saw how i was using sam to send mail
via a mechanism that did a B via some god awful X11
thing. as soon as he saw that he just said that
sam should have a named pipe for commands, thus B.
the idea was John J. Mackin's:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/shand/jjm/index.html
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:10:53 2000
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 17:10:53 -0500
From: Scott Schwartz 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
> sam should have a named pipe for commands
Speaking of that... the diffs I just posted don't provide it. Sam wants
to use plumbing now, and having Plan 9 in front of me saps my will to
code approximations for unix.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:23:08 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:23:08 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
> Speaking of that... the diffs I just posted don't provide it. Sam wants
> to use plumbing now, and having Plan 9 in front of me saps my will to
> code approximations for unix.
the code is trivial. 50 lines?
i think it's in unix.c.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:23:38 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:23:38 -0500
From: rob pike 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
> sam should have a named pipe for commands
The code is adaptable, because there are a few diehards here that don't
use plumbing. B works for them since sam checks if plumbing is
available and if not, turns on the pipe stuff. That should be trivial
to make work on Unix, since it always did.
On Boyd's point, plumbing is of course the evolution of B.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:38:16 2000
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 17:38:16 -0500
From: Scott Schwartz 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
Yes, if you use the old unix samterm, it continues to do what it always
did.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 22:55:14 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:55:14 -0600
From: John Haynes 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] RE: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
-----Original Message-----
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Of 9fans-request@cse.psu.edu
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 4:32 PM
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Subject: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 1 20:08:04 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 100 20:06:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Hohensee 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>
> > More flame bait:
> >
> > The -n test, "newer than" I believe entered unix shells with the Korn
> > shell. IMNNSHO (In My Notoriously Not So Humble Opinion), that obsoleted
> > the "make" utility.
> >
>
> Which bit of the Korn shell models the dependency graph?
>
>
A dependancy graph is a tiny subset of what you can construct with -n and
friends, isn't it?
Rick Hohensee
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 01:24:35 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 02:24:35 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
the korn shell is an unmitigated disaster.
i remember korn standing up after the first
paper at a usenix to ask a question. his
real agenda was to promote a new release
of that abortion.
FYI: i put up the first version, back in '83/'84
at basser. after reading the doc once i
swore i'd never use it. i use it now,
'cos i need history. in a (once) (near)
perfect world i used byron's rc.
now, the 8th Edition shell, now that was a shell.
as rob once wrote 'programming the inputs'.
'whatis' over 'type' -- no comparison.
typing of shell variables? give me a break.
a PRNG in the shell -- don't make me puke.
steve bourne had the right idea. the problem
was the quoting was a nightmare (one i understand)
and it had no real grammar. tom duff nailed the
grammer down with yacc and fixed the quoting -- a
brilliant piece of insight.
korn reminds me of wnj. he wrote a 'shell' too.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 03:32:25 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:32:25 -0500
From: Dharani Vilwanathan 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] RE: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
----- Original Message -----
From: John Haynes <john@algx.net>
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 5:55 PM
Subject: [9fans] RE: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu]On Behalf
> Of 9fans-request@cse.psu.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 4:32 PM
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> Subject: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
>
>
> 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 659464
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 05:50:13 2000
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:50:13 -0600
From: Wayne Walker 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 799726
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 07:33:43 2000
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:33:43 +0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 349718
confirm 349718
> 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 349718
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> (Simply sending a 'reply' to this message should work from most email
> interfaces, since that usually leaves the subject line in the right
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>
> If you do not wish to subscribe to this list, please simply disregard
> this message. Send questions to 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 07:35:56 2000
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:35:56 +0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 349718
confirm 349718
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 03:22:03 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 100 03:21:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Hohensee 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>
> the korn shell is an unmitigated disaster.
>
> i remember korn standing up after the first
> paper at a usenix to ask a question. his
> real agenda was to promote a new release
> of that abortion.
>
> FYI: i put up the first version, back in '83/'84
> at basser. after reading the doc once i
> swore i'd never use it. i use it now,
> 'cos i need history. in a (once) (near)
> perfect world i used byron's rc.
>
> now, the 8th Edition shell, now that was a shell.
>
> as rob once wrote 'programming the inputs'.
>
> 'whatis' over 'type' -- no comparison.
>
> typing of shell variables? give me a break.
> a PRNG in the shell -- don't make me puke.
>
> steve bourne had the right idea. the problem
> was the quoting was a nightmare (one i understand)
> and it had no real grammar. tom duff nailed the
> grammer down with yacc and fixed the quoting -- a
> brilliant piece of insight.
>
> korn reminds me of wnj. he wrote a 'shell' too.
>
>
I don't doubt that there's severe
bletchery in ksh, but it's better than make. IMO.
rc is indeed nice. When abandoning Bourne altogether though,
I then look to Forth. I have put the bulk of the Linux syscalls
in 2 Forths and my 3-stack Forth-like thing. The tricky bit is
reconciling Forth's RPN non-syntax with unix command switches.
This may be ameliorated somewhat by most simple commands becoming
Forth words.
There's strikingly little namespace conflict between a unix PATH
and a Forth dictionary. The only Linux syscall that's also a
Forth word is dup.
Rick Hohensee
Forths and H3sm, tp://linux01.gwdg.de/pub/cLIeNUX/interim
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 10:02:54 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:02:54 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>> Which bit of the Korn shell models the dependency graph?
> >
> >
> A dependancy graph is a tiny subset of what you can construct with -n and
> friends, isn't it?
True, but it doesn't answer my question. I asked "which bit of the
Korn shell _models_ the dependency graph", not "which bits of the Korn
shell can be assembled to create the same effect as the dependency
graph in make".
I may as well have asked "which bits of the C language model the
dependency graph", at which point your reply would have suggested that
I should write a C program each time I want to assemble a kit of parts
in the right order to create a whole. Any language in which you can
invoke other commands, test the relative age of files and do some
filename manipulation is, according to your reply, better than make on
the grounds that it is more general.
Now I'm not proposing that make is all we need; it's been superceded.
However, I do suggest that the conciseness of a dependency graph
notation is important. There is plenty of evidence for this; the
concept has been preserved in subsequent tools, IDEs etc..
So the question is, "which bit of the Korn shell _models_ the
dependency graph?"
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 10:20:43 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:20:43 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>>However, I do suggest that the conciseness of a dependency graph
>>notation is important.
it is not only the conciseness that is important, but its declarative nature.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 07:55:58 2000
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 07:55:58 +0000
From: Steve Kilbane 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
> A dependancy graph is a tiny subset of what you can construct with -n and
> friends, isn't it?
I can see both points of view here. In one corner, we have the point that
what make does is compare the dates on two files, and issue commands via
a shell accordingly. Scripts are written ("makefiles") that test different
pairs, and recursively invoke other parts of the script if necessary.
In the other corner, we note that "recursive" is not something a shell
is good at, what with global variables and all, and coding this thing in
a shell would get old fast, since much of what's being specified is so
similar apart from the the names. Sooner or later, a little language would
arrive to macro-generate the scripts, and you're most of the way to make
anyway.
It's true that make's job could be done by other means, but make handled
a particular problem well, and did so conveniently enough to be preferable
to such alternatives.
I note that mk continues in this vein, rather than being dumped for rc scripts.
steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 11:25:45 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:25:45 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
take a look at inferno's [brucee's] 'mash'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 12:09:06 2000
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 13:09:06 +0100
From: Henner Gratz 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Does 9fans-digest still exist?
> | I haven't got a digest for a relative long.
> | Does this list still exist?
> =
> Yes, and you're still on the list (hpg@logistik.uni-bremen.de), but not=
> on the digest.
> =
> More generally, if mail bounces for too long, you'll be unsubscribed
> automatically.
Very strange! Our (my) mailserver wasn't down a minute in the last few mo=
nths.
Although I've got messages from the 9fans-list everyday. However, thank y=
ou
for the informations.
> | (I've tried to mail to 9fans-digest-request, but got an "unknown user=
" error.)
> =
> Send to 9fans-request, or use the web page
> http://lists.cse.psu.edu/mailing_lists/listinfo/9fans
In the last time there are a lot of messages for 9fans-request that made =
it
into the "real" mail list. Is it possible, that the list server inserts a=
wrong
reply-address to the subscription-confirmations?
> (The local sysadmins recently switched all our mailing lists to this
> new system; there may be some wrinkles still.)
Nobody and nothing is perfect.
Thank you again and good-bye for now.
With best regards,
Henner Gratz
-- =
Universit=E4t Bremen Email: hpg@logistik.uni-b=
remen.de
Lehrstuhl f=FCr Logistik Tel. : (0421) 218-3117
z.Hd. Henner Gratz Fax. : (0421) 218-4271
Wilhelm-Herbst-Str. 5
28359 Bremen
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 13:20:28 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:20:28 -0500
From: rob pike 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] mash
We needed a make-like facility in Inferno but I dreaded porting
make or mk. I had been musing for some time that mk is conceptually
just a special dependency-driven wrapper for shell scripts (this is its
major advance over make, in which the recipes are all mangled and
variables adjusted before the script is run). It therefore seemed that
a shell with a little extra could provide the ability to write building
scripts as shell scripts. But I didn't know how to do it right. I mooted
this to Brucee, who ran with it and made mash by exploiting the module
loading of Inferno. It was a brilliant coup and I wish I had it in other
systems.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 10:55:04 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 100 10:54:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Hohensee 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] mash
>
> We needed a make-like facility in Inferno but I dreaded porting
> make or mk. I had been musing for some time that mk is conceptually
> just a special dependency-driven wrapper for shell scripts (this is its
> major advance over make, in which the recipes are all mangled and
> variables adjusted before the script is run). It therefore seemed that
> a shell with a little extra could provide the ability to write building
> scripts as shell scripts. But I didn't know how to do it right. I mooted
> this to Brucee, who ran with it and made mash by exploiting the module
> loading of Inferno. It was a brilliant coup and I wish I had it in other
> systems.
>
> -rob
>
Hmmmm, haven't looked at that.
Rick Hohensee
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 11:04:04 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 100 11:03:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Rick Hohensee 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
>
> >> Which bit of the Korn shell models the dependency graph?
> > >
> > >
>
> > A dependancy graph is a tiny subset of what you can construct with -n and
> > friends, isn't it?
>
> True, but it doesn't answer my question. I asked "which bit of the
> Korn shell _models_ the dependency graph", not "which bits of the Korn
> shell can be assembled to create the same effect as the dependency
> graph in make".
>
> I may as well have asked "which bits of the C language model the
> dependency graph", at which point your reply would have suggested that
> I should write a C program each time I want to assemble a kit of parts
> in the right order to create a whole. Any language in which you can
> invoke other commands, test the relative age of files and do some
> filename manipulation is, according to your reply, better than make on
> the grounds that it is more general.
>
> Now I'm not proposing that make is all we need; it's been superceded.
> However, I do suggest that the conciseness of a dependency graph
> notation is important. There is plenty of evidence for this; the
> concept has been preserved in subsequent tools, IDEs etc..
>
> So the question is, "which bit of the Korn shell _models_ the
> dependency graph?"
>
You win your point, but mine is that modelling a dependancy graph within
the utility itself is not worth learning another "language". YMMV. I,
personnally, do things like convert the netpbm package to being make-less.
Rick Hohensee
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 16:27:36 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:27:36 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
From: Rick Hohensee <humbubba@smarty.smart.net>
> You win your point, but mine is that modelling a dependancy graph within
> the utility itself is not worth learning another "language". YMMV. I,
> personnally, do things like convert the netpbm package to being make-less.
so, when armed with the korn shell every solution is a shell script?
whatever happened to using the right tool for the job?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 17:44:32 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:44:32 GMT
From: Douglas A. Gwyn 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> now, the 8th Edition shell, now that was a shell.
Indeed, the BRL version of the Bourne shell adopted some of the
8th Edition features, which I found very handy. It also had
job control (from-scratch implementation mainly by Ron Natalie),
which led to an argument with Korn over what POSIX j.c. specs
should look like. Because it needed to serve as a common base
for 7th Edition, JHU/BRL, BSD, System V, etc. environments it
unfortunately had a lot of compile-time parameters for tailoring.
I fixed all the porting issues I could find, especially the one
that caught SIGSEGV to allocate memory (also addressed by Korn;
a tailorable choice in the BRL version); it was ported without
source-code changes to a large variety of UNIX variants. The
most useful extensions, some of which are now seen in other shells:
builtin and whatis commands
-S flag turns on cd spelling correction
$ENV per-shell startup command file (opposite order from Korn)
-E flag to prevent termination on (accidental) EOF
-H flag enables history ($HISTFILE) and command-line editing
ESC ESC filename completion, ESC ? lists candidates
-I flag enables reporting of process information
-J flag enables job control
$PPID set to parent process ID
directories etc. not attempted to execute
builtin cd/chdir, pwd keeps track of path a la Plan9r3
~username substitution
$TIMEOUT shell timeout (0 disables)
I'm still using it on Solaris 8, despite availability of Korn
and older Bourne shells there.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 18:02:43 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:02:43 -0500
From: rob pike 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
The one feature in that long list that is notably absent is the ability
to export functions. We had a long acrimonious debate with Korn.
I never understood his reason for not making functions exportable.
It was always Bourne's intention (I asked him) and the main reason
for doing the 8th edition shell was to have exportable functions.
The rest (builtin most especially) followed from that decision.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 2 19:18:58 2000
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:18:58 -0500
From: David Gordon Hogan 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 349718
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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confirm 349718
--upas-uywvzhwhidezsgtikjrnlscmbm--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 09:27:15 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:27:15 GMT
From: Leo Caves 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] mash
strange that mash appears to be so little utilised in the inferno release.
in a naive search of the inferno source tree I find two "mashfiles",
one to build mash itself and the other related to mail extensions
to acme.
the lack of adoption sends a confusing message.
the fact that there is another command shell for inferno without
these features seeemingly relegates the "make" functionality
to another special purpose language.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 14:22:15 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:22:15 GMT
From: Douglas A. Gwyn 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
rob pike wrote:
> The one feature in that long list that is notably absent is the ability
> to export functions.
I have to say that I never felt the need for them. The startup
file per interactive shell named by $ENV typically sources a
separate file in which a battery of useful functions are defined.
One constraint in many older UNIX systems is that the environment
has only a limited amount of space, and if there were a lot of
large function definitions in the environment it could easily
exceed the available space.
As a general design principle for anyone who does add function
definitions to the environment, the "env" command should print
them in a form that can be directly executed by the shell to
define the functions. Also, exported environment variables
should be printed in a form that can be directly ditto.
$ env # prints:
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:~/bin export PATH
setenv(){ eval $1="'"$2"'" export $1; }
# etc.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 14:56:00 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:56:00 -0500
From: rob pike 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
You're absolutely right: every reason anyone ever gave for not
exporting functions involved a failure of imagination. Sure,
the environment gets big; so give it more space. Sure, you can
import from a file; so why not do that for all variables and lose
export altogether? The point is having a dynamic programming
environment; cavils about stack size and available work-arounds
are just conservatism, and programmers are indeed a
conservative bunch. Pity.
I never understood the resistance. I still don't. Fortunately, I
don't have to care any more, either, since Plan 9 has the best
implementation of the environment out there, and rc does
functions very well, thank you.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 15:50:14 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:50:14 -0500
From: Michael 'Maki' Kato 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] RE: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 441560
-----Original Message-----
From: 9fans-request@cse.psu.edu [mailto:9fans-request@cse.psu.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:49 AM
To: maki@fool.com
Subject: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 441560
9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 441560
We have received a request from 208.241.66.240 for subscription of
your email address, <maki@fool.com>, to the 9fans@cse.psu.edu mailing
list. To confirm the request, please send a message to
9fans-request@cse.psu.edu, and either:
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(Simply sending a 'reply' to this message should work from most email
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If you do not wish to subscribe to this list, please simply disregard
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 17:25:54 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:25:54 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] mash
leo caves wrote;
> the lack of adoption sends a confusing message.
> the fact that there is another command shell for inferno without
> these features seeemingly relegates the "make" functionality
> to another special purpose language.
i liked mash, in principle, but i thought its syntax was unnecessarily
complex, leaving behind some of the simplifications that rc had given
us, and adding expressions, for instance. limbo made it very easy to
provide loadable shell modules, but i thought that it should be
possible to do more with less.
i had already written most of an inferno shell before mash, so i dusted
it off, borrowed most of the good ideas from mash, and that became the
inferno shell. it's comparable in size to mash but simpler and more
versatile, i think. the syntax is very small, but still substantially
similar to rc's.
it should be quite possible to write a "make"-style dependency module
for it without changing the syntax at all.
the key being that it allows the passing around of fragments of
shell-script as values, so it would be perfectly possible to write a
built-in shell module that defined a command "dep" (dependency) that
might look something like:
dep x.dis : x.b {
limbo -g x.b
}
or:
dep %.dis : %.b {
limbo -g $stem.b
}
and a "mk" command to do the customary make-style dependency
evaluation, executing recipes as necessary.
in this scheme, you do lose the advantages of having a special syntax
for the make features (e.g. distinguishing between quoted and unquoted
wildcard chars), but the shell syntax isn't cluttered with stuff that's
essentially only good for one application, and only in the way
otherwise. swings and roundabouts.
i don't know how long mash will stay in the inferno distribution, once
i've plundered its "make" code and converted it to sh... but then i'm
completely biased, and probably wrongheaded about all of this as a
result!
cheers,
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 16:55:22 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:55:22 GMT
From: Elliott Hughes 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
"rob pike" <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote in message
news:20001103145607.93809199DC@mail...
> I never understood the resistance. I still don't.
you explain it yourself: programmers are a conservative bunch.
or did you mean that that's the part you don't understand? i see it as a
natural reaction to the general state of things. almost everything is bad,
even the stuff we produce ourselves, and it's enough trouble getting to
grips with what we've got, understanding its quirks and remembering what
works under what conditions and what doesn't, et cetera, et cetera.
it's like not getting up from a bed of nails because you're scared that the
slightest movement will only increase the pain.
- elliott
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 18:44:13 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:44:13 -0500
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] suspicious confirmation
>From plan9.bell-labs.com!dhog Thu Nov 2 14:23:53 EST 2000
confirm 3.141592653559....
don't you mean 89, not 59, at the end there?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 18:48:32 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:48:32 -0600 (CST)
From: andrey mirtchovski 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] suspicious confirmation
ahh.. when we've calculated Pi to the n-quadrilionth number, what's a few
thousands between friends? :)
On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 baldwin@vitanuova.com wrote:
> >From plan9.bell-labs.com!dhog Thu Nov 2 14:23:53 EST 2000
>
> confirm 3.141592653559....
>
> don't you mean 89, not 59, at the end there?
>
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 18:56:06 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:56:06 -0500
From: David Gordon Hogan 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] suspicious confirmation
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I guess the value of pi must have changed since I memorized it ;-)
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From plan9.bell-labs.com!dhog Thu Nov 2 14:23:53 EST 2000
confirm 3.141592653559....
don't you mean 89, not 59, at the end there?
--upas-hekkmdfgguphoobbxagxvgogek--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 18:54:36 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:54:36 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
> "rob pike" <rob@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote in message
> news:20001103145607.93809199DC@mail...
> > I never understood the resistance. I still don't.
neither did i. the solution was to either change
the environment or be conservative on how much of
the environment you burnt up with functions.
personally, i've never run into environment/NCARGS
problems, but i've seen shell scripts that have,
written by idiots.
i used to use rc and before that i hacked 8th ed
stuff into the svr2 shell. after getting used to
8th ed shell i couldn't live without history,
whatis, builtin or exportable functions. i had
the code, so i coded the it. it's not hard.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 19:02:40 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:02:40 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] suspicious confirmation
either that or bitrot.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 19:21:46 2000
Date: 03 Nov 2000 14:21:46 -0500
From: Ozan Yigit 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
you mention your vaio; can you get p9 to powerdown the vaio properly?
my 505 tr always hangs, have to power down by unplugging... not nice.
cheers... oz
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 20:29:37 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:29:37 +0100
From: Boyd Roberts 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] /n/smtp
From: Ozan Yigit <oz@cs.yorku.ca>
> you mention your vaio; can you get p9 to powerdown the vaio properly?
> my 505 tr always hangs, have to power down by unplugging... not nice.
i've got an N505SN, still without plan 9 on it (USB floppy hell).
i've seen with '98 that you get the same type of problem.
i just leave it on :-)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 3 21:01:24 2000
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 21:01:24 0000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] plan 9 article
Plan 9 features in an enthusiastic review in the December 2000
issue of the United Kingdom edition of Computer Shopper.
the reviewer writes their regular column `Linux: big business'.
i'd tell you where to find the scanned-in version of the article
but no doubt it is copyright. i'll ask them about it.
perhaps eric raymond can convince them to try `open publishing'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 4 17:22:45 2000
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:22:45 -0000
From: Peter Jones 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 808560
confirm 808560
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 4 23:34:27 2000
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:34:27 -0500
From: Marc D Bumble 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9fans -- confirmation of subscription -- request 321297
confirm 321297
--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 10:06:04 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:06:04 -0800
Subject: [9fans] fdisk.c
Message-ID: <20001105020604.A5351@cnm-vra.com>
While trying to hunt down a bug in fdisk (all of the
subpartitions in an extended partition are said to have the
same starting sector when they do not), I noticed some weird
things in the code. Figuring it was either wrong or I
really had no clue after all, I compiled it. I see
something like this:
term% cd /sys/src/cmd/disk
term% mk 8.fdisk
8c -FVw fdisk.c
8l -o 8.fdisk fdisk.8
term% 8.fdisk
disk/fdisk [-p] prefix
term% 8.fdisk /dev/sdC0/data
prep: stating /dev/sdC0/datadisk: file does not exist
term%
Where might I find the current fdisk source?
Micah
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 04:52:31 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 23:52:31 -0500
Subject: [9fans] fdisk.c
Message-ID: <20001105045305.77D9F199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
The fdisk source is in /sys/src/cmd/disk/prep.
The one in /sys/src/cmd/disk is a half-written
version that I forgot to delete when I moved the
partitioning programs into their own directory.
We've deleted it in later distributions.
In general, btw, the src(1) program is quite
useful for things like this.
Sorry about the fdisk confusion.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 10:20:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:20:36 -0800
Subject: [9fans] fdisk.c
In-Reply-To: <20001105020604.A5351@cnm-vra.com>; from micah@cnm-vra.com on Sun, Nov 05, 2000 at 02:06:04AM -0800
References: <20001105020604.A5351@cnm-vra.com>
Message-ID: <20001105022036.B5351@cnm-vra.com>
> things in the code. Figuring it was either wrong or I
> really had no clue after all, I compiled it. I see
I guess the second one is true. Sorry.
/sys/src/cmd/disk/PREP/fdisk.c
Micah
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 10:23:24 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:23:24 -0800
Subject: [9fans] fdisk.c
In-Reply-To: <20001105045305.77D9F199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 11:52:31PM -0500
References: <20001105045305.77D9F199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001105022324.C5351@cnm-vra.com>
> In general, btw, the src(1) program is quite
> useful for things like this.
As usual, I'm running my system in a half-functional
state. Plumbing isn't turned on and I didn't think
about src -n, so I went striking out on my own and
did something dumb...
Micah
From Kenji Arisawa Sun Nov 5 00:12:04 2000
From: Kenji Arisawa (Kenji Arisawa )
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 100 13:35:33 +0900
Subject: [9fans] Perl 5
Message-ID: <20001105051131.395B1199F4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello 9fans,
Does anyone have imported Perl5 to Plan9 ?
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 12:51:00 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 04:51:00 -0800
Subject: [9fans] fdisk fix
Message-ID: <20001105045100.A5959@cnm-vra.com>
Well, having successfully located the source, here's the
fix that makes fdisk read secondary partitions correctly.
diff /sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/fdisk.c fdisk.c
384c384
< pp->secondary = mktab(table.entry[i], lba, base, i);
---
> pp->secondary = mktab(table.entry[i], lba, lba, i);
Now I can go to sleep happy.
Micah
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 07:34:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (andrey mirtchovski)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 01:34:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] re: kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID:
I have been meaning to give perl a go on p9 for quite sometime, but never
got around to it.. instead uf studying tonight I went to ww.perl.com and got
the latest perl source code.
amazingly it had a README.plan9 and a plan9 directory in it.. it looks like
someone did a p9 port of perl back in 1996 (5.003_01 i think was the
latest). I downloaded it and gave it a try, but due to many errors gave up
and tried an older port -- 5.004_05, which is available from:
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/src/perl5.004_05.tar.gz
I had to wrestle with this one too unfortunately -- many files
complained about redefinitions of 'FLT_MAX' apparently from float.h... i
solved this problem by just not caring (restarting mk after it exited with
error seemed to go pass it OK, or simply commenting out the include line
worked fine).. Then upon the creation of the miniroot environment tha perl
installation uses, it complained about redefinitions of getsockopt and
setsockopt, which happened to be dummy functions from plan9/plan9.c...
apart from that, the compilation went ok:
cpu% perl -v
This is perl, version 5.004_05 built for plan9_386
Copyright 1987-1998, Larry Wall
Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5.0 source kit.
Complete documentation for Perl, including FAQ lists, should be found on
this system using `man perl' or `perldoc perl'. If you have access to the
Internet, point your browser at http://www.perl.com/, the Perl Home Page.
cpu% perl -e '{print "Hello World\n";}'
Hello World
cpu%
so, in brief to compile perl one must perform (at least?) the following:
untar perl somewhere, read README.plan9; run plan9/setup.rc;
cd /sys/src/cmd/perl/5.004_05/;
edit plan9/plan9.c -- comment out the dummy getsockopt and setsockopt in the
beggining of the file;
mk install (repeat after it exits with FLT_MAX complaints)...
hope this helped :)
andrey
From Kenji Arisawa Sun Nov 5 05:08:04 2000
From: Kenji Arisawa (Kenji Arisawa )
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 100 18:31:46 +0900
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References:
Message-ID: <20001105100733.C1BD3199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello 9fans,
Hi Andrey,
Your information is very helpful and I have installed perl5.004_05.
I will put perl5.004_05 on my ftp server (plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp) with
your comments. Thanks.
>redefinitions of 'FLT_MAX' apparently from float.h
FLT_MAX, FLT_MIN, DBL_MAX, DBL_MIN are defined in both ape/float.h
and ape/limit.h
I also thank Nigel. Please give me Python 1.6.
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 14:39:22 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:39:22 +0100
Subject: [9fans] re: kenji arisawa's perl question
References:
Message-ID: <004401c04736$3055a860$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: andrey mirtchovski
> I have been meaning to give perl a go on p9 for quite sometime, but never
> got around to it.. instead uf studying tonight I went to ww.perl.com and got
> the latest perl source code.
>
> amazingly it had a README.plan9 and a plan9 directory in it.. it looks like
> someone did a p9 port of perl back in 1996 ...
tragically, this is true.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 17:41:51 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:41:51 -0500
Subject: [9fans] re: kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001105174158.7FAC5199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> amazingly it had a README.plan9 and a plan9 directory in it.. it looks like
> someone did a p9 port of perl back in 1996 ...
tragically, this is true.
g% perl -v
This is perl, version 5.005_02 built for plan9_386
...
g%
I don't remember how hard it was to get this compiled,
but I did get it to compile and subsequently lost the changes.
(I've still got the binary.) I looked at redoing the changes
in the new Perl (5.6.0?) and just didn't feel like going through
it since my need for Perl has gone away. I think the README
you point out dates from Perl 4. I've never been able to contact
the guy who did the Perl 4 port.
It wouldn't be that hard, I don't think.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 5 17:42:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:42:35 -0500
Subject: [9fans] re: kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001105174236.2E10D199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hmm. That'll teach me to read my mail in a stack fashion.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 08:03:23 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jonathan Sergent)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 03:03:23 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: Message from arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp
of "Sun, 05 Nov 0100 18:31:46 +0900." <20001105100733.C1BD3199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <200011060803.DAA12456@csociety.ecn.purdue.edu>
>
> I also thank Nigel. Please give me Python 1.6.
>
How's this:
$ ls -l python
--rwxr-xr-x M 3 sergent sergent 3193673 Nov 5 23:27 python
$ ./python
Python 2.0 (#3, Nov 5 2000, 23:27:32) [C] on plan91
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>
Check out that executable size...
Usually Python uses dynamic linking to load most of the modules. If I get
up the courage, I will see if I can make GNU dld work (it does dynamic
module loading, supposedly portably, but I have not looked into it)
since Python already has support for it.
Out of the regression test suite, test_cmath, test_openpty, test_popen2,
and test_socket failed. The first two caused python to suicide; the
second two generated error messages. The test_socket error was a host
name resolution thing. Does gethostbyname in APE work? Does DNS work
with it? Seems like someone mentioned this a while back.
Building Python was not that hard; I spent maybe two hours.
It's probably not that useful without the dynamic module loading, which
most Python programs I have seen use to load C code. This would also
reduce the python executable size significantly...
--jss.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 08:08:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:08:38 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-cgybhjhfmbejkxrbvxyumdirgk
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So where is it available?
--upas-cgybhjhfmbejkxrbvxyumdirgk
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: Message from arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp
of "Sun, 05 Nov 0100 18:31:46 +0900." <20001105100733.C1BD3199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
From: Jonathan Sergent
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>
> I also thank Nigel. Please give me Python 1.6.
>
How's this:
$ ls -l python
--rwxr-xr-x M 3 sergent sergent 3193673 Nov 5 23:27 python
$ ./python
Python 2.0 (#3, Nov 5 2000, 23:27:32) [C] on plan91
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>
Check out that executable size...
Usually Python uses dynamic linking to load most of the modules. If I get
up the courage, I will see if I can make GNU dld work (it does dynamic
module loading, supposedly portably, but I have not looked into it)
since Python already has support for it.
Out of the regression test suite, test_cmath, test_openpty, test_popen2,
and test_socket failed. The first two caused python to suicide; the
second two generated error messages. The test_socket error was a host
name resolution thing. Does gethostbyname in APE work? Does DNS work
with it? Seems like someone mentioned this a while back.
Building Python was not that hard; I spent maybe two hours.
It's probably not that useful without the dynamic module loading, which
most Python programs I have seen use to load C code. This would also
reduce the python executable size significantly...
--jss.
--upas-cgybhjhfmbejkxrbvxyumdirgk--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 08:26:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jonathan Sergent)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 00:26:15 -0800
Subject: [9fans] Python
Message-ID: <20001106082616.30095199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
nigel@9fs.org:
> So where is it available?
I'm working on that--give me until tomorrow (it's late here).
I didn't mention that I compiled GNU grep in order to make the
autoconf script run.
--jss.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 09:44:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:44:05 GMT
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
References: <20001103145607.93809199DC@mail>
Message-ID: <3A0604E3.9E11CCCB@null.net>
rob pike wrote:
> Sure, the environment gets big; so give it more space.
How? I think you're spoiled by being in a position to
modify the operating system. For most commercial OSes
we don't have that luxury, and therefore design choices
we make may well reflect the reality we're stuck with.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 09:43:49 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:43:49 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
Message-ID:
Is there support for the NVIDIA Geforce card? If not is there anyway I could
just install console mode only?
James
From marco@nbnet.nb.ca Mon Nov 6 09:43:23 2000
From: marco@nbnet.nb.ca (Marco Shaw)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:43:23 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Boot/install help?
Message-ID: <3A041EFE.3A6A7F98@nbnet.nb.ca>
I'm just planning to install Plan9, but when I use the boot/install
disk, all I get is 'boot from:'. From that point the install
instructions indicate to just hit enter, but that doesn't work.
If I try 'boot from: fd0', it complains about requiring 'fd0!file'. So
what is that boot file supposed to be?
The only things I picked were: boot from 1st floppy, linksys etherfast
10/100 (auto/auto), and mouse on com1, other than the defaults. Perhaps
this floppy boot image is bad?
Thanks,
Marco
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 09:54:37 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:54:37 0000
Subject: [9fans] Boot/install help?
Message-ID:
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--upas-hondesviimljgyattqkiyckzdz
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If you check the floppy, it will be DOS format, with an image such as
9pc, 9pcdisk, 9pccpu. You will require
fd0!9pc.
However, check the contents of plan9.ini on the disk. What does it say
as the bootfile?
If it says something sensible (i.e. something which is on the disk) then
you may have a disk reading problem, yes.
What is the motherboard chipset?
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:43:23 GMT
I'm just planning to install Plan9, but when I use the boot/install
disk, all I get is 'boot from:'. From that point the install
instructions indicate to just hit enter, but that doesn't work.
If I try 'boot from: fd0', it complains about requiring 'fd0!file'. So
what is that boot file supposed to be?
The only things I picked were: boot from 1st floppy, linksys etherfast
10/100 (auto/auto), and mouse on com1, other than the defaults. Perhaps
this floppy boot image is bad?
Thanks,
Marco
--upas-hondesviimljgyattqkiyckzdz--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 09:56:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:56:01 0000
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
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Sorry, no Nvidia Geforce (or any other Nvidia) support.
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From: James
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Organization: @Home Network
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:43:49 GMT
Is there support for the NVIDIA Geforce card? If not is there anyway I could
just install console mode only?
James
--upas-imbsdfhfqiadhzgnkniosrnzqi--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 13:05:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:05:21 -0500
Subject: [9fans] usage of CPU server
Message-ID: <20001106130538.ED79F199EF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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--upas-ljpmwpbffccjrmdrnxvdcvaoyj
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The discussions I was having at the time were with the System V people.
-rob
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Subject: Re: [9fans] usage of CPU server
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 09:44:05 GMT
rob pike wrote:
> Sure, the environment gets big; so give it more space.
How? I think you're spoiled by being in a position to
modify the operating system. For most commercial OSes
we don't have that luxury, and therefore design choices
we make may well reflect the reality we're stuck with.
--upas-ljpmwpbffccjrmdrnxvdcvaoyj--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 15:45:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 10:45:35 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: Message from Jonathan Sergent
of "Mon, 06 Nov 2000 03:03:23 EST." <200011060803.DAA12456@csociety.ecn.purdue.edu>
Message-ID: <20001106154536.4286.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu>
perl, python... anyone done tcl or es yet?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 15:51:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:51:12 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001106154536.4286.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <023601c04809$63a46e80$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schwartz
> perl, python... anyone done tcl or es yet?
or tso(6) for that matter...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 16:17:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:17:53 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
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i came across a copy of tso on tapes a few years ago and compiled
it (with changes for changed C and unix). it was satisfying to see
a manly user interface once more. i had more work to
explain the history to people to whom i showed it.
--upas-ljpcstovbsiiidglvrwdlywpfm
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:51:12 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Schwartz
> perl, python... anyone done tcl or es yet?
or tso(6) for that matter...
--upas-ljpcstovbsiiidglvrwdlywpfm--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 21:36:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:36:45 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Boot/install help?
Message-ID: <20001106221553.B43DA199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
The boot program is not recognizing your floppy disk.
If you have a 5.25" floppy drive as well, you might try
disabling it in the BIOS. We don't understand the problem,
but a fair number of people have had success with that
as a workaround.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 07:31:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jonathan Sergent)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:31:15 -0800
Subject: [9fans] first cut at Python port
Message-ID: <20001107073124.51D1F199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
My first cut at at Python 2.0 port to Plan 9 can be downloaded from:
ftp://csociety-ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/pub/plan9/python/
There is a README, binaries, and buildable sources.
I'm probably going to be too busy for the remainder of the week to try
to fix the regression tests that are failing. If I can get it to all work, I'll
submit a patch to the Python people so that it can become part of their
standard distribution.
--
Jonathan Sergent / sergent@csociety.purdue.edu
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 14:32:27 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 06:32:27 -0800
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
In-Reply-To: <200009110945.LAA19698@chuckle.iba.co.za>; from lucio@proxima.alt.za on Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 11:41:21AM +0000
References: <200009110945.LAA19698@chuckle.iba.co.za>
Message-ID: <20001107063227.A21140@cnm-vra.com>
--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+
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I took a look at vt tonight and while vttest still just turns
up its nose at me, it looks like I've eliminated most of the
real problems I had with Mutt and vi. There are mainly
three changes.
First, I finally think I've got scroll() right. Lucio's
previous patch said
> /mnt/wrap/sys/src/cmd/vt/main.c:577 c /sys/src/cmd/vt/main.c:584
> < draw(screen, Rpt(pt(0, dy), pt(xmax+1, ly-sy)), screen, nil, pt(0, sy));
> ---
> > draw(screen, Rpt(pt(0, dy), pt(xmax+1, ly+1)), screen, nil, pt(0, sy));
but it should really have dy+ly-sy in there.
Second, I made the delete to end of line and delete to end of
screen stuff work like the vt100 user's guide says it should.
Last, I changed yscrmin and yscrmax so that they are always the
beginning and end of the scrolling region even when that region
is the whole screen. That got rid of a bunch of lines that
looked like
M = yscrmax ? yscrmax : ymax;
Maybe there was a good reason for doing it the other way, but
I don't see it.
Anyway, attached are my current in-progress versions of vt.c
and main.c from /sys/src/cmd/vt. They do not include the
patch Lucio posted to this list a few weeks back. I hope
this is helpful to somebody.
Micah
--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+
Content-Type: text/x-csrc
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="main.c"
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include "cons.h"
enum{
Ehost = 4,
};
char *menutext2[] = {
"backup",
"forward",
"reset",
"clear",
"send",
"page",
0
};
char *menutext3[] = {
"24x80",
"crnl",
"nl",
"raw",
0
};
/* variables associated with the screen */
int x, y; /* character positions */
char *backp;
int backc;
int atend;
int nbacklines;
int xmax, ymax;
int blocked;
int resize_flag;
int pagemode;
int olines;
int peekc;
Menu menu2;
Menu menu3;
char *histp;
char hist[HISTSIZ];
int yscrmin, yscrmax;
Image *text;
Image *background;
Image *bordercol;
Image *cursback;
Image *red;
/* terminal control */
struct ttystate ttystate[2] = { {0, 1}, {0,0} };
int NS;
int CW;
Consstate *cs;
Mouse mouse;
int outfd = -1;
Biobuf *snarffp = 0;
char *host_buf;
char *hostp; /* input from host */
int host_bsize = 2*BSIZE;
int hostlength; /* amount of input from host */
char echo_input[BSIZE];
char *echop = echo_input; /* characters to echo, after canon */
char sendbuf[BSIZE]; /* hope you can't type ahead more than BSIZE chars */
char *sendp = sendbuf;
/* functions */
void initialize(int, char **);
void ebegin(int);
int waitchar(void);
int rcvchar(void);
void set_input(char *);
void set_host(Event *);
void bigscroll(void);
void readmenu(void);
void eresized(int);
void resize(void);
void send_interrupt(void);
int alnum(int);
void escapedump(int,uchar *,int);
char *term;
struct funckey *fk;
int debug;
void
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
initialize(argc, argv);
emulate();
}
void
initialize(int argc, char **argv)
{
int dayglo = 1;
rfork(RFENVG|RFNAMEG|RFNOTEG);
term = "vt100";
fk = vt100fk;
ARGBEGIN{
case '2':
term = "vt220";
fk = vt220fk;
break;
case 's': /* for sape */
dayglo = 0;
break;
}ARGEND;
host_buf = malloc(host_bsize);
hostp = host_buf;
hostlength = 0;
if(initdraw(0,0,term) < 0){
fprint(2, "%s: initdraw failed: %r\n", term);
exits("initdraw");
}
ebegin(Ehost);
histp = hist;
menu2.item = menutext2;
menu3.item = menutext3;
pagemode = 0;
blocked = 0;
NS = font->height ;
CW = stringwidth(font, "m");
text = allocimage(display, Rect(0,0,1,1), screen->chan, 1, dayglo?0x00F0F0F0:0);
background = allocimage(display, Rect(0,0,1,1), screen->chan, 1, dayglo?0x33333333:-1);
bordercol = allocimage(display, Rect(0,0,1,1), screen->chan, 1, 0xCCCCCCCC);
cursback = allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, CW+1, NS+1), screen->chan, 0, DNofill);
red = allocimage(display, Rect(0, 0, CW+1, NS+1), screen->chan, 1, DRed);
eresized(0);
if(argc > 0) {
sendnchars(strlen(argv[0]),argv[0]);
sendnchars(1,"\n");
}
}
void
clear(Rectangle r)
{
draw(screen, r, background, nil, ZP);
}
void
newline(void)
{
nbacklines--;
if(y >= yscrmax) {
y = yscrmax;
if(pagemode && olines >= yscrmax) {
blocked = 1;
return;
}
scroll(yscrmin+1, yscrmax+1, yscrmin, yscrmax);
} else
y++;
olines++;
}
void
curson(int bl)
{
Image *col;
draw(cursback, cursback->r, screen, nil, subpt(pt(x, y),Pt(1,1)));
if(bl)
col = red;
else
col = bordercol;
border(screen, Rpt(subpt(pt(x, y), Pt(1, 1)), addpt(pt(x, y), Pt(CW,NS))),
2, col, ZP);
}
void
cursoff(void)
{
draw(screen, Rpt(subpt(pt(x, y), Pt(1, 1)), addpt(pt(x, y), Pt(CW,NS))),
cursback, nil, cursback->r.min);
}
int
get_next_char(void)
{
int c = peekc;
peekc = 0;
if(c > 0)
return(c);
while(c <= 0) {
if(backp) {
c = *backp;
if(c && nbacklines >= 0) {
backp++;
if(backp >= &hist[HISTSIZ])
backp = hist;
return(c);
}
backp = 0;
}
c = waitchar();
}
*histp++ = c;
if(histp >= &hist[HISTSIZ])
histp = hist;
*histp = '\0';
return(c);
}
int
canon(char *ep, int c)
{
if(c&0200)
return(SCROLL);
switch(c) {
case '\b':
if(sendp > sendbuf)
sendp--;
*ep++ = '\b';
*ep++ = ' ';
*ep++ = '\b';
break;
case 0x15: /* ^U line kill */
sendp = sendbuf;
*ep++ = '^';
*ep++ = 'U';
*ep++ = '\n';
break;
case 0x17: /* ^W word kill */
while(sendp > sendbuf && !alnum(*sendp)) {
*ep++ = '\b';
*ep++ = ' ';
*ep++ = '\b';
sendp--;
}
while(sendp > sendbuf && alnum(*sendp)) {
*ep++ = '\b';
*ep++ = ' ';
*ep++ = '\b';
sendp--;
}
break;
case '\177': /* interrupt */
sendp = sendbuf;
send_interrupt();
return(NEWLINE);
case '\021': /* quit */
case '\r':
case '\n':
if(sendp < &sendbuf[512])
*sendp++ = '\n';
sendnchars((int)(sendp-sendbuf), sendbuf);
sendp = sendbuf;
if(c == '\n' || c == '\r') {
*ep++ = '\n';
}
*ep = 0;
return(NEWLINE);
case '\004': /* EOT */
if(sendp == sendbuf) {
sendnchars(0,sendbuf);
*ep = 0;
return(NEWLINE);
}
/* fall through */
default:
if(sendp < &sendbuf[512])
*sendp++ = c;
*ep++ = c;
break;
}
*ep = 0;
return(OTHER);
}
void
sendfk(char *name)
{
int i;
static int fd;
for(i=0; fk[i].name; i++)
if(strcmp(name, fk[i].name)==0){
sendnchars2(strlen(fk[i].sequence), fk[i].sequence);
return;
}
}
int
waitchar(void)
{
Event e;
int c;
char c2;
int newmouse;
int wasblocked;
int kbdchar = -1;
char echobuf[3*BSIZE];
static int lastc = -1;
for(;;) {
if(resize_flag)
resize();
wasblocked = blocked;
if(backp)
return(0);
if(ecanmouse() && (button2() || button3()))
readmenu();
if(snarffp) {
if((c = Bgetc(snarffp)) < 0) {
if(lastc != '\n')
write(outfd,"\n",1);
Bterm(snarffp);
snarffp = 0;
if(lastc != '\n') {
lastc = -1;
return('\n');
}
lastc = -1;
continue;
}
lastc = c;
c2 = c;
write(outfd, &c2, 1);
return(c);
}
if(!blocked && host_avail())
return(rcvchar());
if(kbdchar > 0) {
if(blocked)
resize();
if(cs->raw) {
switch(kbdchar){
case Kup:
sendfk("up key");
break;
case Kdown:
sendfk("down key");
break;
case Kleft:
sendfk("left key");
break;
case Kright:
sendfk("right key");
break;
default:
echobuf[0] = kbdchar;
sendnchars(1, echobuf);
break;
}
} else if(canon(echobuf,kbdchar) == SCROLL) {
if(!blocked)
bigscroll();
} else
strcat(echo_input,echobuf);
blocked = 0;
kbdchar = -1;
continue;
}
curson(wasblocked); /* turn on cursor while we're waiting */
do {
newmouse = 0;
switch(eread(blocked ? Emouse|Ekeyboard :
Emouse|Ekeyboard|Ehost, &e)) {
case Emouse:
mouse = e.mouse;
if(button2() || button3())
readmenu();
else if(resize_flag == 0) {
/* eresized() is triggered by special mouse event */
newmouse = 1;
}
break;
case Ekeyboard:
kbdchar = e.kbdc;
break;
case Ehost:
set_host(&e);
break;
default:
perror("protocol violation");
exits("protocol violation");
}
} while(newmouse == 1);
cursoff(); /* turn cursor back off */
}
return 1; /* to shut up compiler */
}
void
eresized(int new)
{
resize_flag = 1+new;
}
void
exportsize(void)
{
int fd;
char buf[10];
if((fd = create("/env/LINES", OWRITE, 0644)) > 0) {
sprint(buf,"%d",ymax+1);
write(fd,buf,strlen(buf));
close(fd);
}
if((fd = create("/env/COLS", OWRITE, 0644)) > 0) {
sprint(buf,"%d",xmax+1);
write(fd,buf,strlen(buf));
close(fd);
}
if((fd = create("/env/TERM", OWRITE, 0644)) > 0) {
fprint(fd, "%s", term);
close(fd);
}
}
void
resize(void)
{
if(resize_flag > 1 && getwindow(display, Refnone) < 0){
fprint(2, "can't reattach to window: %r\n");
exits("can't reattach to window");
}
xmax = (Dx(screen->r)-2*XMARGIN)/CW-1;
ymax = (Dy(screen->r)-2*YMARGIN)/NS-1;
if(xmax == 0 || ymax == 0)
exits("window gone");
x = 0;
y = 0;
yscrmin = 0;
yscrmax = ymax;
olines = 0;
exportsize();
clear(screen->r);
resize_flag = 0;
}
void
readmenu(void)
{
Rectangle r;
int fd;
if(button3()) {
menu3.item[1] = ttystate[cs->raw].crnl ? "cr" : "crnl";
menu3.item[2] = ttystate[cs->raw].nlcr ? "nl" : "nlcr";
menu3.item[3] = cs->raw ? "cooked" : "raw";
switch(emenuhit(3, &mouse, &menu3)) {
case 0: /* 24x80 */
r.min = screen->r.min;
r.max = addpt(screen->r.min,
Pt(80*CW+2*XMARGIN+2*INSET,
24*NS+2*YMARGIN+2*INSET));
fd = open("/dev/wctl", OWRITE);
if(fd < 0 || fprint(fd, "resize -dx %d -dy %d\n", Dx(r)+2*Borderwidth, Dy(r)+2*Borderwidth) < 0){
border(screen, r, INSET, bordercol, ZP);
xmax = 79;
ymax = 23;
exportsize();
}
if(fd >= 0)
close(fd);
return;
case 1: /* newline after cr? */
ttystate[cs->raw].crnl = !ttystate[cs->raw].crnl;
return;
case 2: /* cr after newline? */
ttystate[cs->raw].nlcr = !ttystate[cs->raw].nlcr;
return;
case 3: /* switch raw mode */
cs->raw = !cs->raw;
return;
}
return;
}
menu2.item[5] = pagemode? "scroll": "page";
switch(emenuhit(2, &mouse, &menu2)) {
case 0: /* back up */
if(atend == 0) {
backc++;
backup(backc);
}
return;
case 1: /* move forward */
backc--;
if(backc >= 0)
backup(backc);
else
backc = 0;
return;
case 2: /* reset */
backc = 0;
backup(0);
return;
case 3: /* clear screen */
eresized(0);
return;
case 4: /* send the snarf buffer */
snarffp = Bopen("/dev/snarf",OREAD);
return;
case 5: /* pause and clear at end of screen */
pagemode = 1-pagemode;
if(blocked && !pagemode) {
eresized(0);
blocked = 0;
}
return;
}
}
void
backup(int count)
{
register n;
register char *cp;
eresized(0);
n = 3*(count+1)*ymax/4;
cp = histp;
atend = 0;
while (n >= 0) {
cp--;
if(cp < hist)
cp = &hist[HISTSIZ-1];
if(*cp == '\0') {
atend = 1;
break;
}
if(*cp == '\n')
n--;
}
cp++;
if(cp >= &hist[HISTSIZ])
cp = hist;
backp = cp;
nbacklines = ymax-2;
}
Point
pt(int x, int y)
{
return addpt(screen->r.min, Pt(x*CW+XMARGIN,y*NS+YMARGIN));
}
void
scroll(int sy, int ly, int dy, int cy) /* source, limit, dest, which line to clear */
{
draw(screen, Rpt(pt(0, dy), pt(xmax+1, dy+ly-sy)), screen, nil, pt(0, sy));
clear(Rpt(pt(0, cy), pt(xmax+1, cy+1)));
}
void
bigscroll(void) /* scroll up half a page */
{
int half = ymax/3;
if(x == 0 && y == 0)
return;
if(y < half) {
clear(Rpt(pt(0,0),pt(xmax+1,ymax+1)));
x = y = 0;
return;
}
draw(screen, Rpt(pt(0, 0), pt(xmax+1, ymax+1)), screen, nil, pt(0, half));
clear(Rpt(pt(0,y-half+1),pt(xmax+1,ymax+1)));
y -= half;
if(olines)
olines -= half;
}
int
number(char *p)
{
int c, n = 0;
while ((c = get_next_char()) >= '0' && c <= '9')
n = n*10 + c - '0';
*p = c;
return(n);
}
/* stubs */
void
sendnchars(int n,char *p)
{
sendnchars2(n, p);
p[n+1] = 0;
}
void
sendnchars2(int n,char *p)
{
if(write(outfd,p,n) < 0) {
close(outfd);
close(0);
close(1);
close(2);
exits("write");
}
}
int
host_avail(void)
{
return(*echop || ((hostp - host_buf) < hostlength));
}
int
rcvchar(void)
{
int c;
if(*echop) {
c = *echop++;
if(!*echop) {
echop = echo_input;
*echop = 0;
}
return c;
}
return *hostp++;
}
void
set_host(Event *e)
{
hostlength = e->n;
if(hostlength > host_bsize) {
host_bsize *= 2;
host_buf = realloc(host_buf,host_bsize);
}
hostp = host_buf;
memmove(host_buf,e->data,hostlength);
host_buf[hostlength]=0;
}
void
ringbell(void){
}
int
alnum(int c)
{
if(c >= 'a' && c <= 'z')
return 1;
if(c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z')
return 1;
if(c >= '0' && c <= '9')
return 1;
return 0;
}
void
escapedump(int fd,uchar *str,int len)
{
int i;
for(i = 0; i < len; i++) {
if((str[i] < ' ' || str[i] > '\177') &&
str[i] != '\n' && str[i] != '\t') fprint(fd,"^%c",str[i]+64);
else if(str[i] == '\177') fprint(fd,"^$");
else if(str[i] == '\n') fprint(fd,"^J\n");
else fprint(fd,"%c",str[i]);
}
}
void
funckey(int key)
{
if(key >= NKEYS)
return;
if(fk[key].name == 0)
return;
sendnchars2(strlen(fk[key].sequence), fk[key].sequence);
}
void
drawstring(Point p, char *str, int standout)
{
Image *txt, *bg;
txt = text;
bg = background;
if(standout){
txt = background;
bg = text;
}
draw(screen, Rpt(p, addpt(p, stringsize(font, str))), bg, nil, p);
string(screen, p, txt, ZP, font, str);
}
--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+
Content-Type: text/x-csrc
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vt.c"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include
#include "cons.h"
struct funckey vt100fk[NKEYS] = {
{ "up key", "\033OA", },
{ "down key", "\033OB", },
{ "left key", "\033OD", },
{ "right key", "\033OC", },
};
struct funckey vt220fk[NKEYS] = {
{ "up key", "\033[A", },
{ "down key", "\033[B", },
{ "left key", "\033[D", },
{ "right key", "\033[C", },
};
char gmap[256] = {
['_'] ' ', /* blank */
['\\'] '*', /* diamond */
['a'] 'X', /* checkerboard */
['b'] '\t', /* HT */
['c'] '\x0C', /* FF */
['d'] '\r', /* CR */
['e'] '\n', /* LF */
['f'] 'o', /* degree */
['g'] '+', /* plus/minus */
['h'] '\n', /* NL, but close enough */
['i'] '\v', /* VT */
['j'] '+', /* lower right corner */
['k'] '+', /* upper right corner */
['l'] '+', /* upper left corner */
['m'] '+', /* lower left corner */
['n'] '+', /* crossing lines */
['o'] '-', /* horiz line - scan 1 */
['p'] '-', /* horiz line - scan 3 */
['q'] '-', /* horiz line - scan 5 */
['r'] '-', /* horiz line - scan 7 */
['s'] '-', /* horiz line - scan 9 */
['t'] '+', /* |- */
['u'] '+', /* -| */
['v'] '+', /* upside down T */
['w'] '+', /* rightside up T */
['x'] '|', /* vertical bar */
['y'] '<', /* less/equal */
['z'] '>', /* gtr/equal */
['{'] 'p', /* pi */
['|'] '!', /* not equal */
['}'] 'L', /* pound symbol */
['~'] '.', /* centered dot: ¡ */
};
void
emulate(void)
{
char buf[BUFS+1];
int n;
int c;
int standout;
int operand, prevOperand;
int savex, savey;
int isgraphics;
int g0set, g1set;
standout = 0;
isgraphics = 0;
g0set = 'B'; /* US ASCII */
g1set = 'B'; /* US ASCII */
savex = savey = 0;
yscrmin = 0;
yscrmax = ymax;
for (;;) {
if (y > ymax) {
x = 0;
newline();
}
buf[0] = get_next_char();
buf[1] = '\0';
switch(buf[0]) {
case '\000':
case '\001':
case '\002':
case '\003':
case '\004':
case '\005':
case '\006':
break;
case '\007': /* bell */
ringbell();
break;
case '\010': /* backspace */
if (x > 0)
--x;
break;
case '\011': /* tab modulo 8 */
x = (x|7)+1;
break;
case '\012': /* linefeed */
case '\013':
case '\014':
newline();
standout = 0;
if (ttystate[cs->raw].nlcr)
x = 0;
break;
case '\015': /* carriage return */
x = 0;
standout = 0;
if (ttystate[cs->raw].crnl)
newline();
break;
case '\016': /* SO: invoke G1 char set */
isgraphics = (isdigit(g1set));
break;
case '\017': /* SI: invoke G0 char set */
isgraphics = (isdigit(g0set));
break;
case '\020': /* DLE */
case '\021': /* DC1 */
case '\022': /* XON */
case '\023': /* DC3 */
case '\024': /* XOFF */
case '\025': /* NAK */
case '\026': /* SYN */
case '\027': /* ETB */
case '\030': /* CAN: cancel escape sequence */
case '\031': /* EM: cancel escape sequence, display checkerboard */
case '\032': /* SUB: same as CAN */
break;
/* ESC, \033, is handled below */
case '\034': /* FS */
case '\035': /* GS */
case '\036': /* RS */
case '\037': /* US */
break;
case '\177': /* delete: ignored */
break;
case '\033':
switch(get_next_char()){
/*
* 7 - save cursor position.
*/
case '7':
savex = x;
savey = y;
break;
/*
* 8 - restore cursor position.
*/
case '8':
x = savex;
y = savey;
break;
/*
* Received c. Reset terminal.
*/
case 'c':
break;
/*
* Received D. Active position down a line, scroll if at bottom margin.
*/
case 'D':
if(++y > yscrmax) {
y = yscrmax;
scroll(yscrmin+1, yscrmax+1, yscrmin, yscrmax);
}
break;
/*
* Received E. Active position to start of next line, scroll if at bottom margin.
*/
case 'E':
x = 0;
if(++y > yscrmax) {
y = yscrmax;
scroll(yscrmin+1, yscrmax+1, yscrmin, yscrmax);
}
break;
/*
* Received M. Active position up a line, scroll if at top margin..
*/
case 'M':
if(--y < yscrmin) {
y = yscrmin;
scroll(yscrmin, yscrmax, yscrmin+1, yscrmin);
}
break;
/*
* Z - Identification. The terminal
* emulator will return the response
* code for a generic VT100.
*/
case 'Z':
Ident:
sendnchars2(5, "\033[?6c");
break;
/*
* H - go home. (No, I think this sets a horizontal tab stop.)
*/
case 'H':
// x = y = 0;
break;
/*
* > - set numeric keypad mode on
*/
case '>':
break;
/*
* = - set numeric keypad mode off
*/
case '=':
break;
/*
* # - Takes a one-digit argument that
* we need to snarf away.
*/
case '#':
get_next_char();
break;
/*
* ( - switch G0 character set
*/
case '(':
g0set = get_next_char();
break;
/*
* - switch G1 character set
*/
case ')':
g1set = get_next_char();
break;
/*
* Received left bracket.
*/
case '[':
/*
* A semi-colon or ? delimits arguments. Only keep one
* previous argument (plus the current one) around.
*/
operand = number(buf);
prevOperand = 0;
while(buf[0] == ';' || buf[0] == '?'){
prevOperand = operand;
operand = number(buf);
}
/*
* do escape2 stuff
*/
switch(buf[0]){
/*
* c - same as ESC Z: who are you?
*/
case 'c':
goto Ident;
/*
* l - clear various options.
*/
case 'l':
break;
/*
* h - set various options.
*/
case 'h':
break;
/*
* A - cursor up.
*/
case 'A':
if(operand == 0)
operand = 1;
y -= operand;
if(y < 0)
y = 0;
olines -= operand;
if(olines < 0)
olines = 0;
break;
/*
* B - cursor down
*/
case 'B':
if(operand == 0)
operand = 1;
y += operand;
if(y > ymax)
y=ymax;
break;
/*
* C - cursor right.
*/
case 'C':
if(operand == 0)
operand = 1;
x += operand;
/*
* VT-100-UG says not to go past the
* right margin.
*/
if(x > xmax)
x=xmax;
break;
/*
* D - cursor left
*/
case 'D':
if(operand == 0)
operand = 1;
x -= operand;
if(x < 0)
x = 0;
break;
/*
* H and f - cursor motion. operand is the column
* and prevOperand is the row, origin 1.
*/
case 'H':
case 'f':
x = operand - 1;
if(x < 0)
x = 0;
if(x > xmax)
x = xmax;
y = prevOperand - 1;
if(y < 0)
y = 0;
if(y > ymax)
y = ymax;
break;
/*
* J - clear some or all of the display.
*/
case 'J':
switch (operand) {
/*
* operand 2: whole screen.
*/
case 2:
clear(Rpt(pt(0, 0), pt(xmax+1, ymax+1)));
break;
/*
* operand 1: start of screen to active position, inclusive.
*/
case 1:
clear(Rpt(pt(0, 0), pt(x, ymax+1)));
clear(Rpt(pt(0, y), pt(x+1, y+1)));
break;
/*
* Default: active position to end of screen, inclusive.
*/
default:
clear(Rpt(pt(x, y), pt(xmax+1, y+1)));
clear(Rpt(pt(0, y+1), pt(xmax+1, ymax+1)));
break;
}
break;
/*
* K - clear some or all of the line.
*/
case 'K':
switch (operand) {
/*
* operand 2: whole line.
*/
case 2:
clear(Rpt(pt(x, y), pt(xmax+1, y+1)));
break;
/*
* operand 1: start of line to active position, inclusive.
*/
case 1:
clear(Rpt(pt(0, y), pt(x+1, y+1)));
break;
/*
* Default: active position to end of line, inclusive.
*/
default:
clear(Rpt(pt(x, y), pt(xmax+1, y+1)));
break;
}
break;
/*
* L - insert a line at cursor position
*/
case 'L':
scroll(y, yscrmax, y+1, y);
break;
/*
* M - delete a line at the cursor position
*/
case 'M':
scroll(y+1, yscrmax+1, y, yscrmax);
break;
/*
* m - change character attributes.
* Attributes are:
* 0 Attributes off
* 1 Bold or increased intensity
* 4 Underscore
* 5 Blink
* 7 Negative (reverse) image
*/
case 'm':
standout = operand;
break;
/*
* r - change scrolling region. prevOperand is
* min scrolling region and operand is max
* scrolling region.
*/
case 'r':
yscrmin = prevOperand-1;
yscrmax = operand-1;
if (yscrmax == 0)
yscrmax = ymax;
break;
/*
* Anything else we ignore for now...
*/
default:
break;
}
break;
/*
* Ignore other commands.
*/
default:
break;
}
break;
default: /* ordinary char */
if(isgraphics && gmap[(uchar) buf[0]])
buf[0] = gmap[(uchar) buf[0]];
/* line wrap */
if (x > xmax){
x = 0;
newline();
}
n = 1;
c = 0;
while (!cs->raw && host_avail() && x+n<=xmax && n=' ' && c<'\177') {
buf[n++] = c;
c = 0;
}
buf[n] = 0;
// clear(Rpt(pt(x,y), pt(x+n, y+1)));
drawstring(pt(x, y), buf, standout);
x += n;
peekc = c;
break;
}
}
}
--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 09:27:52 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:27:52 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
References:
Message-ID:
Whats a good card then? Voodoo?? or will onboard (motherboard) video work?
Or is there away to install it in console mode only. I also got my hands on
Plan 9 manual today (old one) from work, pretty wild. :-)
I work at lucent, I just got my hands on a Sparcstation 5. Plan 9 should
work on that with no problems?
wrote in message
news:E13sj0V-000JY0-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net...
> Sorry, no Nvidia Geforce (or any other Nvidia) support.
>
>
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 09:28:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:28:21 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 Lucent
Message-ID:
I work at lucent, It seem that Plan 9 is unheard of (at least in Whippanny
NJ in the 5ESS world). Solaris and NT are the big thing. It would be nice to
see Plan 9 being used at work for something. If any of you guys work in
Whippanny and have Plan 9 up and running in the offices drop me an Email I
will love to see it.
James
Brojohnson@home.com
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 09:28:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jakub Jermar)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:28:38 GMT
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
Message-ID: <8u7d4t$1oda$1@news.vol.cz>
There are two kernel processes called "egi" and "ego" in the fs kernel
source. They do similar job as "etheri" and "ethero" processes.
i) what kind of network device is Eagle
ii) they seem to be unused today - I can't find any call to the routine that
spawns them
Jakub Jermar
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 10:06:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:06:11 0000
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-lkdcufgemafwpoefwbtelioyop
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The Labs web pages indicate a basic hardware compatibility.
If you check the archives, then more information is available.
In the most recent update, Voodoo was added. It was developed
on a 3000, but should work with others.
Plan 9 so far has not made use of 3D, so good 2D performance
is all that matters. This, plus the relative difficulty of getting
specifications for the market leading 3D cards makes keeping
up with current hardware tricky.
Currently the big holes are
ATi >= 128 bits: documentation is easy to get, but no-one
with the skills/hardware/motivation has stood up to
be counted yet
Nvidia: known to be hard to get documentation
Matrox G series: reasonable documentation can be got.
I have got a G400 working at 8 bits depth, but time
is short
As for on-board, if you mean SIS, then no.
Sparcstation 5. Not immediately; the latest release is only tested
on x86. I have one lying in the corner of the room as well.
I would download the 3rd edition manuals from the website and
read them. There are a _lot_ of changes. Put it this way, I don't
read the old manuals, pretty though they are.
Nigel
--upas-lkdcufgemafwpoefwbtelioyop
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From: James
Message-ID:
Organization: @Home Network
References:
Subject: Re: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
List-Archive:
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:27:52 GMT
Whats a good card then? Voodoo?? or will onboard (motherboard) video work?
Or is there away to install it in console mode only. I also got my hands on
Plan 9 manual today (old one) from work, pretty wild. :-)
I work at lucent, I just got my hands on a Sparcstation 5. Plan 9 should
work on that with no problems?
wrote in message
news:E13sj0V-000JY0-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net...
> Sorry, no Nvidia Geforce (or any other Nvidia) support.
>
>
--upas-lkdcufgemafwpoefwbtelioyop--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 11:33:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Marco Shaw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:33:53 GMT
Subject: [9fans] VMWare or Bochs?
Message-ID: <2wRN5.2092$rm4.47904@sodalite.nbnet.nb.ca>
Has anyone had success running Plan9 with some virtual machine software like
VMWare or Bochs?
Marco
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 12:23:47 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:23:47 0000
Subject: [9fans] VMWare or Bochs?
Message-ID:
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Yes, I ran 2nd edition under Bochs. It's very useful
for debugging the bootloader.
--upas-czlrgruuijxhconzorrssbdowb
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: Marco Shaw
Message-ID: <2wRN5.2092$rm4.47904@sodalite.nbnet.nb.ca>
Organization: NBTel Internet
Subject: [9fans] VMWare or Bochs?
Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:33:53 GMT
Has anyone had success running Plan9 with some virtual machine software like
VMWare or Bochs?
Marco
--upas-czlrgruuijxhconzorrssbdowb--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 15:31:55 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:31:55 -0500
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
Message-ID: <20001107153158.01B89199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Jakub Jermar :
There are two kernel processes called "egi" and "ego" in the fs kernel
source. They do similar job as "etheri" and "ethero" processes.
i) what kind of network device is Eagle
ii) they seem to be unused today - I can't find any call to the routine that
spawns them
Jakub Jermar
Two drivers (eagle and jaguar) are included in the distribution source
although the machines which used them are long gone (SGI Power series and
MIPS 6280). These are VME cards, the Eagle was ethernet, Jaguar was SCSI,
both made by Interphase.
I suppose I could remove them, I remove the dregs of other dead hardware
when I find them. Hands up, who knows what this typedef in fs/port/portdat.h
was for:
typedef struct Bit Bit;
If you know, I pity you.
--jim
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 16:03:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:03:01 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Boot/install help?
References: <3A041EFE.3A6A7F98@nbnet.nb.ca>
Message-ID: <3A0820E5.814EEC3D@arl.army.mil>
Marco Shaw wrote:
> I'm just planning to install Plan9, but when I use the boot/install
> disk, all I get is 'boot from:'. From that point the install
> instructions indicate to just hit enter, but that doesn't work.
While it is possible that the boot floppy was miswritten,
it is more likely that you have one of the systems on which
Plan 9's installation software has trouble with the floppy
controller. If you have two floppy drives enabled in your
BIOS, disable the second one and try again. If that doesn't
work then just keep trying anyway and maybe sooner or later
it will accidentally work. (Based on my own experience.)
From steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Tue Nov 7 16:24:22 2000
From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com (steve.simon@snellwilcox.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 16:24:22 +0000
Subject: Re[2]: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>
I know I'am going to regret this :-)
but what is tso(6)?
Any relation to the rje support the pwb?
-Steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 16:44:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:44:54 +0100
Subject: Re[2]: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>
Message-ID: <014d01c048da$0ea468a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
>
> but what is tso(6)?
>
well section 6 tells you it's a game. it was a tso
[time sharing option?] 'simulation'. i think i saw
it in 8th ed, but i'm not sure.
check out:
http://osr4.berkeley.edu/Public/TECH/TUTORIALS/tso.html
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 17:04:04 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:04:04 0000
Subject: Re[2]: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001107170031.EF95E199D5@mail.cse.psu.edu>
>>well section 6 tells you it's a game. it was a tso
>>[time sharing option?] 'simulation'. i think i saw
>>it in 8th ed, but i'm not sure.
it was a version of the unix shell (5th/6th edition) with prompts, diagnostics and other text
modified to reflect the IEH2374I INVALID DATA SET NAME style of TSO;
it also stty'd lcase so input and output was of course UPPER CASE.
i remember it had judiciously placed sleeps the better to mimic the full TSO feel.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 18:30:22 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:30:22 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <014d01c048da$0ea468a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <3A084622.B2414153@arl.army.mil>
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> From:
> > but what is tso(6)?
> well section 6 tells you it's a game. it was a tso
> [time sharing option?] 'simulation'.
Hm, should I port my Adventure shell to rc?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 18:58:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:58:01 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <014d01c048da$0ea468a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <3A084622.B2414153@arl.army.mil>
Message-ID: <01a201c048ec$a706db20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Douglas A. Gwyn
>
> Hm, should I port my Adventure shell to rc?
>
gotta be a better idea than the perl port :-)
From avp@alum.mit.edu Tue Nov 7 19:52:45 2000
From: avp@alum.mit.edu (Andrew Pochinsky)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:52:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] Nvidia Geforce card
In-Reply-To: (nigel@9fs.org)
References:
Message-ID: <200011071952.eA7Jqje25430@honti.mit.edu>
As for on-board, if you mean SIS, then no.
Neither Intel's 810/815 chipset graphics.
--andrew
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 7 23:30:00 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:30:00 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001107233009.E5618199D5@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//should I port my Adventure shell to rc?
oh, heck yeah! i'd rather have that
than perl and python combined!
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 02:20:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wayne Walker)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:20:03 -0600
Subject: [9fans] VMware
Message-ID: <20001107202003.A8783@buzzard.kdi.com>
Has anyone had any new luck getting R3 running under VMware? I've seen
comments about the :
VMware Workstation PANIC:
NOT_IMPLEMENTED F(562):1654
I have only seen that on VMware running on K6 processors. I had
different problems when running on a Pentium III, a loaner notebook I
had :) that is now gone :( In fact, I remember getting much further,
but don't remember the problem there. Has anyone tried
Plan9/VMware/Intel cpu? I could live without Ethernet (PPP over the
virtual serial is OK with me...)
--
Wayne Walker
Unix SysAdmin/Perl Hacker/System Architect
From promocioNET@fibertel.com.ar Thu Nov 9 06:32:00 2000
From: promocioNET@fibertel.com.ar (promocioNET)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 03:32:00 -0300
Subject: [9fans] lanzamiento internacional free
Message-ID: <3A0043D0001DC24A@smtp122.fibertel.com.ar> (added by postmaster@fibertel.com.ar)
buscas a alguien?
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Este mensaje es por unica vez.Tambien puede borrarse respondiendo este
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From digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) Wed Nov 8 08:43:07 2000
From: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) (Digby Tarvin)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:43:07 +0000 (GMT/BST)
Subject: [9fans] VMware
In-Reply-To: <20001107202003.A8783@buzzard.kdi.com> from Wayne Walker at "Nov
7, 2000 08:20:03 pm"
Message-ID: <200011080843.IAA21192@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk>
> Has anyone had any new luck getting R3 running under VMware? I've seen
> comments about the :
>
> VMware Workstation PANIC:
>
> NOT_IMPLEMENTED F(562):1654
>
> I have only seen that on VMware running on K6 processors. I had
> different problems when running on a Pentium III, a loaner notebook I
> had :) that is now gone :( In fact, I remember getting much further,
> but don't remember the problem there. Has anyone tried
> Plan9/VMware/Intel cpu? I could live without Ethernet (PPP over the
> virtual serial is OK with me...)
I havn't tried it yet, but was interested in doing so. The biggest show
stopper as far as I can see (as I think I have mentioned before)
is that in VMware only emulates a VGA hardware with 640x480 and 16
colours - which Plan9 won't be too happy with.
Support for higher resolution is achieved by installing custom
drivers which talk to VMware, rather than emulating any real
hardware. These drivers are only supplied for 'supported'
operating systems. And VMware considers the interface proprietary
and when I asked they indicated that they can not divulge it.
This is not a situation I am happy with, so have not yet felt
inspired to pay for a VMware license. It is a pity, because it
otherwise sounds very appealing.
Perhaps a solution, which might also be useful in many other situations,
would be a Plan 9 'virtual' graphics driver which, instead of supporting
directly connected graphics hardware, spits X protocol packets over
a network to allow a remote display to be used.
VNC may be another option - I am not sure if it requires real local
hardware to mirror, though.
An X based 'pseudo-device' would provide the same 'system in a window'
capability you get for supported VMware guest operating systems,
with the added bonus of being able to do the same for systems runnning
on physicaly separate hardware. Plus it could provide a fall-back
solution for all those systems with unsupported (by Plan 9)
graphics hardware - if you have an X-term or X equipped Unix workstation
on your network, then you have a display that Plan 9 can use.
I have a bit of experience programming at the Xlib (and below) level,
but none at all in writing Plan 9 display drivers, so I don't know
how practical this would be. I would guess that, as a worst case,
one could just treat the X window as just a large bitmap, and
ignore all the windowing, fonts etc functionality of the X protocol.
Of course there is still the problem of getting VMware's emulated AMD
ethernet device to work with the Plan 9 driver. Last I heard, that
was still problematic due to some emulation flaw that doesn't effect
the supported guest OS's.
Regards,
DigbyT
--
Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org
http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 09:23:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:23:30 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <01a201c048ec$a706db20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <973640592.223769@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
boyd@planete.net (Boyd Roberts) writes:
>From: Douglas A. Gwyn
>>
>> Hm, should I port my Adventure shell to rc?
>>
>gotta be a better idea than the perl port :-)
but would you of neccessity say the same thing of a python port? or
a tcl port? seems like it might be better to be explicit about
criticizing a language, not the idea of porting language(s) per se.
(and I believe some bumf on inferno implied it would be a killer java
platform)
-George
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 09:22:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jakub Jermar)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:22:57 GMT
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
References: <20001107153158.01B89199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <8u9s02$gtf$1@news.vol.cz>
> I suppose I could remove them, I remove the dregs of other dead hardware
> when I find them. Hands up, who knows what this typedef in
fs/port/portdat.h
> was for:
> typedef struct Bit Bit;
> If you know, I pity you.
I don't know what purpose was 'typedef struct Bit Bit' for -- I guess
I was only ten or so when Plan 9 used to be proud of
the SGI Power multiprocessor servers...
But now I see that things like the Bit typedef, Eagle and Jaguar drivers
merely ARE
and their one and only task is silent being in the kernel. No doubts they
should
go.
Besides these fossils, there is another thing that I would like to point
out. Both fs and CPUterm kernels suffer mutual duplication of code.
I've done a private survey on this issue in both kernels and found the
following simillarities/duplicities:
all kinds of locks
pieces of scheduler including sleep() and wakeup()
clock and time planning
interrupt dispatching
PCI, CGA, keyboard, floppy
ethernets (etherlnk3, 82557, 2114x), ethernet generic interface
scsi (NCR53c8xx), scsi generic interface
IP protocols...
...and possibly many more.
The result of my survey brought me to thoughts like: "let's have only one
Plan 9 kernel".
For there are only kernel processes in the fs kernel and all of them
cooperate in the algorithm described in the File Server paper written by
Ken Thompson, it should be no problem to transfer the functionality of it
to the CPUterm kernel -- CPUterm kernel supports kernel processes,
and all the hardware that fs kernel needs + more.
With some #ifdefined'ing and a little (more or less) coding, we could
achieve the fully functional fileserver kernel from the CPUterm source.
One would be able to build different images from one source, depending on
whether he wanted to build a file server or a CPUterm server kernel . (I
also
believe that there could be a slight distinction between kernels intended
for
CPU servers and kernels meant for terminals. While enterprise CPU servers
are probably not going to need devices like VGA and sound, they should
be given the opportunity to be free of them, terminals, on the other hand,
might need some of the multimedia drivers.
The scheduler could also be optimised for compute-bound processes on CPU
kernels and for transput-bound processes on term kernels.)
Well, what do you think?
Jakub Jermar
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 09:23:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (david.bates2)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:23:12 GMT
Subject: [9fans] someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <100O5.83751$hk2.227630@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
Hiya all,
I was reading about plan 9 recently. To be frank, I'd never head of it until
a week or two ago... I suppose I was just writing to ask whether it was
worth installing at this point in time. I don't doubt that it has some
powerful ideas, but does it have any decent apps that run on it at the
moment? An example would be apps for spreadsheets, databases, and text
editing.... and of course compilers for various langauges. Also, I am a
little unclear on the role of rio. Is it the window manager? Is it an
essential part of the system or can it be replaced as with a linux window
manager?
Anyway,
See you all,
Chris.
From marco@nbnet.nb.ca Wed Nov 8 09:23:48 2000
From: marco@nbnet.nb.ca (Marco Shaw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:23:48 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Plan9 on Bochs/Plex86
Message-ID: <3A08B716.926C560E@nbnet.nb.ca>
Does someone here have any recent experience running Plan9 on Bochs or
Plex86? I gotten some errors when trying to get Plan9 running under
Bochs.
Thanks,
Marco
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 09:24:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:24:05 GMT
Subject: [9fans] flickers on monitor + vgadb
Message-ID: <8ub0fk$11t$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Hello,
I see on my monitor on the right half of the screen some unpleasant
flickers (short white lines runing from top to bottom).
plan9.ini:
monitor=multisync
mode=1024x768x8
Monitor is NOKIA 449XaPlus
Video card is ATI 3D Charger (Rage IIc AGP)
I find out that when I change the clock entry in monitor definition in
/lib/vgadb
from clock=75
to clock=65.14
the thinks are better but some noise remain.
When I boot MSWindows the screen is clear.
Any idea?
vecera
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 11:41:09 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Marco Shaw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:41:09 GMT
Subject: [9fans] VMware
References: <20001107202003.A8783@buzzard.kdi.com>
Message-ID: <8HaO5.2294$rm4.51230@sodalite.nbnet.nb.ca>
I've tried and failed on a PII with Plan9 3rd Edition, and VMWare 2.0.2.
Can't remember the error.
The Bochs emulator fails as well.
Marco
"Wayne Walker" wrote in message
news:20001107202003.A8783@buzzard.kdi.com...
> Has anyone had any new luck getting R3 running under VMware? I've seen
> comments about the :
>
> VMware Workstation PANIC:
>
> NOT_IMPLEMENTED F(562):1654
>
> I have only seen that on VMware running on K6 processors. I had
> different problems when running on a Pentium III, a loaner notebook I
> had :) that is now gone :( In fact, I remember getting much further,
> but don't remember the problem there. Has anyone tried
> Plan9/VMware/Intel cpu? I could live without Ethernet (PPP over the
> virtual serial is OK with me...)
>
> --
> Wayne Walker
>
> Unix SysAdmin/Perl Hacker/System Architect
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 12:38:47 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:38:47 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <01a201c048ec$a706db20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <973640592.223769@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
Message-ID: <00c501c04980$d6e8dac0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: George Michaelson
> boyd@planete.net (Boyd Roberts) writes:
>
> >gotta be a better idea than the perl port :-)
>
> but would you of neccessity say the same thing of a python port? or
> a tcl port? seems like it might be better to be explicit about
> criticizing a language, not the idea of porting language(s) per se.
>
i'm criticising the language, not languages. perl is an abortion;
it is unreadable, the grammar is ghastly and it violates the 'tools'
approach.
i understand why sysadmins like it. i just won't use it,
although i have bug-fixed it.
i would also object to csh, sendmail, vi, *rn, readnews, X
and various other pieces of unix trash being ported to plan 9.
it's plan 9, if you want unix, you know where to find it.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 12:54:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:54:33 +0100
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
References: <20001107153158.01B89199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu> <8u9s02$gtf$1@news.vol.cz>
Message-ID: <00f401c04983$0b051600$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
IIRC an eagle was a fujitsu? winchester drive. i forget
its size [500Mb?], but it did have a massbus interface [vax].
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 13:56:55 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:56:55 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108125512.6E430199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> i would also object to [...] vi [...] being ported to plan 9.
luckily we already have vi.
*phew*
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 13:11:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:11:05 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001108125512.6E430199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <012701c04985$5a67bd40$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> luckily we already have vi.
> *phew*
well i hope the 'goto fonfon;' was kept -- its only saving grace.
at least you good laugh yourself silly at that one.
ever wondered why constructs like:
10~
never worked? that was because a bunch of stuff was implemented
by forcing stuff back into its input.
~ was implemented by peeking at the character the cursor was on,
changing its case and then forcing:
r.l
back on input, where . is the character in question. the
count gets thrown away in that ghastly main loop.
the 'l' would have been not added if you were at the
end of the line.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 15:09:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:09:15 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
References: <100O5.83751$hk2.227630@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID:
"david.bates2" writes:
> I was reading about plan 9 recently. To be frank, I'd never head of it until
> a week or two ago... I suppose I was just writing to ask whether it was
> worth installing at this point in time. I don't doubt that it has some
> powerful ideas, but does it have any decent apps that run on it at the
> moment? An example would be apps for spreadsheets, databases, and text
> editing.... and of course compilers for various langauges. Also, I am a
> little unclear on the role of rio. Is it the window manager? Is it an
> essential part of the system or can it be replaced as with a linux window
> manager?
You're missing a rather _crucial_ point; there is no such thing as a
"Linux window manager."
There are all sorts of window managers that run on "reasonably
Unix-like systems, in conjunction with the X Window System," and since
the Linux kernel combined with GLIBC and GNU binary and file utilities
provides a "reasonably Unix-like system," the WMs cope adequately.
The _proper_ tie is to describe them as "X window managers."
Plan 9 provides a bunch of parts that are "reasonably Unix-like,"
which would make it not unreasonable to hope that a window manager
might be able to compile and search for resources on Plan 9.
However, one of the resources typically required happens to be an
operational instance of the X Window System, which _doesn't_ happen to
have been ported to run on Plan 9.
"No X" has the result of "no applications that require X."
Which leads to:
- No X window managers
- No Motif-based applications like Netscrape
- No GTK-based applications like ApplixWare or the GNOME applications
- No Qt-based apps like the KDE apps
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@hex.net")
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months." - Oscar Wilde
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 15:36:08 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:36:08 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108153612.AB250199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//luckily we already have vi.
good thing, too. but i think the man
page should include emacs(1) in the
SEE ALSO section. i much prefer that
port to plan 9. âş
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 16:45:17 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:45:17 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108154332.0BC19199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> > luckily we already have vi.
> > *phew*
>
> well i hope the 'goto fonfon;' was kept -- its only saving grace.
% cd /sys/src/cmd/vi
% grep fonfon *.[ch]
%
i'm not sure what you're on about.
:-)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 15:57:50 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:57:50 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108155416.5E7CF199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-ucrizreindlgtvorgnrmbyypap
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
for those not seeing the joke: vi in plan 9 is a mips instruction interpreter.
emacs(1) is:
EMACS(1) EMACS(1)
NAME
emacs - editor macros
SYNOPSIS
emacs [ options ]
DESCRIPTION
This page intentionally left blank.
SOURCE
MIT
SEE ALSO
sam(1), vi(1)
BUGS
Yes.
--upas-ucrizreindlgtvorgnrmbyypap
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:45:17 0000
> > luckily we already have vi.
> > *phew*
>
> well i hope the 'goto fonfon;' was kept -- its only saving grace.
% cd /sys/src/cmd/vi
% grep fonfon *.[ch]
%
i'm not sure what you're on about.
:-)
--upas-ucrizreindlgtvorgnrmbyypap--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 16:37:22 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:37:22 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001108163740.D36CD199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>
okay, i'll bite. the statement:
//...the X Window System... doesnt happen to
//have been ported to run on Plan 9
isn't entirely correct. from /sys/doc/ape.ps:
//some large systems, including X11, have been ported
//successfully to Plan 9 using APE (the X11 port is not
//included in the distribution, however, because
//supporting it properly is too big a job).
fair enough. however, as much as i hate X (both the
protocol and the code), and as far superior as Plan 9's
/dev/draw and rio are, X is usefull for talking to Unix
systems (which many of us still have to do on ocasion,
unfortunatly). any chance of talking y'all (that is,
whoever in the Labs was responsible for the port) to do
either a Plan 9 package akin to the TeX package, or to
tell the rest of us what was done to make it happen?
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 17:11:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Theo Honohan)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 17:11:59 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:09:15 GMT."
References: <100O5.83751$hk2.227630@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>
Message-ID:
In message , cbbrowne@hex.net write
s:
> "david.bates2" writes:
> > I was reading about plan 9 recently. To be frank, I'd never head of it unti
> l
> > a week or two ago... I suppose I was just writing to ask whether it was
> > worth installing at this point in time. I don't doubt that it has some
> > powerful ideas, but does it have any decent apps that run on it at the
> > moment? An example would be apps for spreadsheets, databases, and text
> > editing.... and of course compilers for various langauges. Also, I am a
> > little unclear on the role of rio. Is it the window manager? Is it an
> > essential part of the system or can it be replaced as with a linux window
> > manager?
>
> You're missing a rather _crucial_ point; there is no such thing as a
> "Linux window manager."
That's not a very helpful answer! I wonder whether you might have
missed the word "as" in the second last line...
I think you could say that rio *is* analogous to an X window manager,
in some ways. In the sense that the X window manager is intended to
provide policy and the X server to provide mechanism, rio provides a
particular "window system" implementation on top of the underlying
raster graphics facility (/dev/draw). As such, it provides a set of
window management facilities, while the draw device multiplexes the
display among a number of "clients", to use the X terminology.
You could certainly replace rio with an alternative window system,
although it's probably the case that most of the interesting window
systems you might want to develop in Plan 9 would present a similar
interface. It's conceivable that if you want to have windows that differ
substantially from "asynchronous layers of text" -- some kind of
multimedia, maybe -- then they might be better handled by a different
display management discipline.
Just as you can run a "nested" instance of rio inside a window, you
could run an instance of your new window system within a rio window,
or vice versa. Knock yourself out!
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 17:34:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:34:57 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001108173504.E086E199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>
[on the discussion of X vs. /dev/dran and rio]
i think it's misleading to say rio is analogous to *wm while
/dev/draw is analogous to the X server. rio provides or defines much
more in the way of facilities than your typical wm, "intruding"
substantially into the realm of the X server.
look at the nearest thing to a replacement for rio we've got: acme.
I/O behaves very differently under acme, and graphics programs written
to the /dev/draw model are totally useless (producing interesting
results). /dev/draw isn't analogous to the X server - it's a hardware
abstraction layer.
//It's conceivable that if you want to have windows that differ
//substantially from "asynchronous layers of text"... ...then they
//might be better handled by a different display management discipline.
just to be clear, rio can handle windows other than "asynchronous
layers of text". Acme, for example, or Inferno running on Plan 9 (i'm
not talking about the console, obviously), or games/plumb. oh, and
additional instances of rio. we're kind of short on applications that
do that, but it's quite possible in rio.
the above statement could still be true, however. i'm just pointing out
that rio can handle what you're talking about. there may well be other,
better, alternatives waiting to be created. personally, i'm looking
forward to Acme supporting graphics.
//Just as you can run a "nested" instance of rio inside a window, you
//could run an instance of your new window system within a rio window,
//or vice versa.
the "vice versa" part is tricky. X, for example, runs inside a normal
rio window, as does Acme. both provide "different discipline" from rio.
but good luck running rio inside either. again, this could still be
true, but it depends on the "other" window system providing the same
/dev/draw model provided by #i and rio.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 18:13:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Greg Shubin)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:13:03 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <00c501c04980$d6e8dac0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <3A099697.4BCC40E8@sonic.net>
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> From: George Michaelson
>
> > boyd@planete.net (Boyd Roberts) writes:
> >
> > >gotta be a better idea than the perl port :-)
> >
> > but would you of neccessity say the same thing of a python port? or
> > a tcl port? seems like it might be better to be explicit about
> > criticizing a language, not the idea of porting language(s) per se.
> >
>
> i'm criticising the language, not languages. perl is an abortion;
> it is unreadable, the grammar is ghastly and it violates the 'tools'
> approach.
>
> i understand why sysadmins like it. i just won't use it,
> although i have bug-fixed it.
>
> i would also object to csh, sendmail, vi, *rn, readnews, X
> and various other pieces of unix trash being ported to plan 9.
> it's plan 9, if you want unix, you know where to find it.
As a Plan 9 newbie, that's one of the things that I don't quite get. On
one hand it seems that the "official" position is Plan 9 contains
everything you need. But then I see everyone porting their favorite
tools to it. As you point out, pretty soon it will have as much bloat as
Un*x. Is there an official position on what should and shouldn't be
ported?
(Personally I like the features of bash (completion, history using arrow
keys, emacs command editing, etc). )
At the risk of escalating language flame wars, what's your opinion of
(wait a second, let me get into my bomb shelter) C++?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 18:35:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:35:59 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108183605.91A6D199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> At the risk of escalating language flame wars, what's your opinion of
> (wait a second, let me get into my bomb shelter) C++?
Nasssty language, precious. It hurts poor Smeagol. We hates it forever.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 18:39:09 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:39:09 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001108183912.5957A199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Dodging the C++ bomb shell (quiet, Boyd!), I think I
would summarize my view of the feeling by saying that
Plan 9 provides you with a new perspective on how
to implement various things that in Unix are taken
for granted as the ``only way to fly''.
The bash features you cite are a great example: instead of
endowing the shell with command completion, history
using arrow keys, and emacs command editing, Plan 9 puts
roughly equivalent capabilities in the hands of the window
system: you can edit any text in any rio window, cut, paste,
etc. The feel is different, but now it applies to _all_ applications,
not just the shell, and without requiring everything to link
against the GNU readline library.
Similarly, the editors are of a different flavor: simpler,
less to understand, but just as powerful when you do.
Plan 9 is neat because most things that are part of
the center of the system have been rethought and
redesigned at least once more than Unix counterparts.
At the same time, no one is going to argue that Plan 9
is complete: there are plenty of things I want to be able
to do that I can't. Reading news is one of them. But if
someone were going to expend the effort to get news
running on Plan 9, I'd rather see a file system presentation
than just a port of trn.
Bringing in tools from Unix usually happens because they're
needed for some particular job: I have a perl binary because
I had to run one Perl script with some frequency when I was
working with a die-hard Perl fan on a project. I have cvs
because I had to use it for a project last summer. The
TeX and Moscow ML ports happened for similar reasons.
That's why vncviewer exists too.
Those have been brought in because no one wanted to think
about redoing them, and they were needed.
Things like csh, sendmail, vi, and X we have replacements
for, and they're good examples of the Plan 9 approach to
cleaner solutions for old problems. If you were going to
use Plan 9 without using rc, upas, and rio, it really wouldn't
be much different from Unix.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 6 23:23:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Pedro Gomes)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:23:54 -0000
Subject: [9fans] subscribe pedro gomes
Message-ID: <000001c049bf$31d5cbd0$c12a1ed5@laptop>
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:06:24 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:06:24 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001108154332.0BC19199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <01b501c049d0$230c2e80$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> > > luckily we already have vi.
> > > *phew*
> >
> > well i hope the 'goto fonfon;' was kept -- its only saving grace.
>
> % cd /sys/src/cmd/vi
> % grep fonfon *.[ch]
> %
>
> i'm not sure what you're on about.
> :-)
i'm talking about the _original_ BSD source.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:27:39 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:27:39 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <1971527636@snellwilcox.com>, <00c501c04980$d6e8dac0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <3A099697.4BCC40E8@sonic.net>
Message-ID: <01f301c049d3$1a692780$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Greg Shubin
>
> (Personally I like the features of bash (completion, history using arrow
> keys, emacs command editing, etc). )
bash...
you have not understood rc.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:34:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:34:12 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001108183912.5957A199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <020c01c049d4$04f2f6a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Russ Cox
> Dodging the C++ bomb shell (quiet, Boyd...
i won't even comment on c++. i know the stories.
fine reply, russ.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:59:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (andrey mirtchovski)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:59:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: <020c01c049d4$04f2f6a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID:
On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Boyd Roberts wrote:
> i won't even comment on c++. i know the stories.
>
tell us the stories then... part of why people are attracted to p9 is the
history that goes with it :)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:53:10 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 23:53:10 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001108235309.A242@localhost.local>
I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
connect to my ISP with PAP?
I have read the manuals for ppp and con and telco
but cant seem to get logged on successfully.
I've tried,
telco /dev/eia1
con -l telco!5551212
(this gets me dialed in, but not
logged on)
Also tried,
ip/ppp -p /dev/eia1 -s myusername:password -t atdt5551212
(The only thing this does is produce a clicking
sound as my modem responds. There is no dialtone
or anything else that follows)
/Bill
wstanREMOVETHIS@planet.nl
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 23:15:14 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:15:14 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References:
Message-ID: <025f01c049d9$c04d5bc0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: andrey mirtchovski
> tell us the stories then... part of why people are attracted to p9 is the
> history that goes with it :)
c++ and plan 9 have nothing to do with each other.
i have a reliable source about c++, back in the '80s.
i wasn't there, but my source is/was reliable.
ok, i'll tell you one story:
programs that compiled one day would not compile the next day
with this sort of reliability, would you choose it as a programming
language -- and that's long before the bloat.
those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 22:57:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:57:36 -0500
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
Message-ID: <20001108231525.61B98199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>
if you and lucio can agree on a version, I stick it in the distribution.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 8 02:20:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wayne Walker)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:20:03 -0600
Subject: [9fans] VMware
Message-ID: <20001107202003.A8783@buzzard.kdi.com>
Has anyone had any new luck getting R3 running under VMware? I've seen
comments about the :
VMware Workstation PANIC:
NOT_IMPLEMENTED F(562):1654
I have only seen that on VMware running on K6 processors. I had
different problems when running on a Pentium III, a loaner notebook I
had :) that is now gone :( In fact, I remember getting much further,
but don't remember the problem there. Has anyone tried
Plan9/VMware/Intel cpu? I could live without Ethernet (PPP over the
virtual serial is OK with me...)
--
Wayne Walker
Unix SysAdmin/Perl Hacker/System Architect
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 01:03:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:03:13 0900
Subject: [9fans] X3T10-1408D document
Message-ID: <20001109010224.802D3199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I happened to search this document, and found it somewhere on
www.symbios.com. However, this site seems now to be taken over by lsilogic.
Does anyone know where I can get that document now?
Thanks in advance
Kenji
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 01:40:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:40:54 0900
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001109014002.BC814199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
>layers of text". Acme, for example, or Inferno running on Plan 9 (i'm
>not talking about the console, obviously), or games/plumb. oh, and
>additional instances of rio. we're kind of short on applications that
I suppose you forgot acd (audio or acme cd player? which is right?)
and mixer by Russ. I'm enjoying music by DVD drive from my Plan 9
terminal.
Kenji
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 01:56:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 20:56:35 -0500
Subject: [9fans] X3T10-1408D document
Message-ID: <20001109015636.D45EC199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
try www.t10.org
From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Nov 9 04:23:18 2000
From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:23:18 +0200
Subject: [9fans] C++ (Was: Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question)
In-Reply-To: <025f01c049d9$c04d5bc0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>; from Boyd Roberts on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:15:14AM +0100
References: <025f01c049d9$c04d5bc0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <20001109062317.A29086@cackle.proxima.alt.za>
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 12:15:14AM +0100, Boyd Roberts wrote:
>
> ok, i'll tell you one story:
>
> programs that compiled one day would not compile the next day
>
I watched comp.lang.c++ as version 1 evolved into version 2. I
also had Zortech C++ version 1, 2 and eventually 3 (for MS-DOS,
and I would still use it today if I wasn't a regular fool) so was
quite interested in David Bright's discussions with Bjarne Stroustrup.
My impressions, going back a long time, were that Bjarne was
unnecessarily arrogant, but far less so than many others I encountered
at the time.
The language? I still think it is an important milestone and, like
a lot of other things in this wretched industry, it would have
benefitted mightily from discarding its legacy, but would have been
much less successful had it done so (look at Plan 9 as an example
of the reverse, and RC for an extreme instance).
Whether cfront managed to retain its sanity from one day to the
next, Zortech C++ never let me down. I occasionally teach C++ at
a theoretical level, and each time I get reminded of features I
miss in other programming languages.
OK, so I should be trying [incr tcl], but the documentation is so
unbearably shoddy...
++L
From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Nov 9 04:27:01 2000
From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:27:01 +0200
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
In-Reply-To: <20001108231525.61B98199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:57:36PM -0500
References: <20001108231525.61B98199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001109062700.B29086@cackle.proxima.alt.za>
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:57:36PM -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>
> if you and lucio can agree on a version, I stick it in the distribution.
Surely Rob should be arbitrator. I have not had time to look at the
patch, but I'd like to point out one issue I have not examined and I
don't think the patch addressed: the highlight termination does not work,
vt (-2 is what I always use) waits for the end of line to turn highlight
off.
I'm going through a bad patch, so Dave please bear with me for a couple
of days.
++L
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 07:00:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:00:56 -0500
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
Message-ID: <20001109070058.17E9D199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-nejbmsfatfobvzzrvnltniqsya
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it's worse than you know, some drivers are used in 5 different
operating systems, all requiring them to be mangled to fit, it's
a maintenance headache i'm well aware of.
after saying so for years, i have actually started on merging the
kernels. but don't hold your breath, there are lots of things to
get in the way.
--upas-nejbmsfatfobvzzrvnltniqsya
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: Jakub Jermar
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References: <20001107153158.01B89199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:22:57 GMT
> I suppose I could remove them, I remove the dregs of other dead hardware
> when I find them. Hands up, who knows what this typedef in
fs/port/portdat.h
> was for:
> typedef struct Bit Bit;
> If you know, I pity you.
I don't know what purpose was 'typedef struct Bit Bit' for -- I guess
I was only ten or so when Plan 9 used to be proud of
the SGI Power multiprocessor servers...
But now I see that things like the Bit typedef, Eagle and Jaguar drivers
merely ARE
and their one and only task is silent being in the kernel. No doubts they
should
go.
Besides these fossils, there is another thing that I would like to point
out. Both fs and CPUterm kernels suffer mutual duplication of code.
I've done a private survey on this issue in both kernels and found the
following simillarities/duplicities:
all kinds of locks
pieces of scheduler including sleep() and wakeup()
clock and time planning
interrupt dispatching
PCI, CGA, keyboard, floppy
ethernets (etherlnk3, 82557, 2114x), ethernet generic interface
scsi (NCR53c8xx), scsi generic interface
IP protocols...
...and possibly many more.
The result of my survey brought me to thoughts like: "let's have only one
Plan 9 kernel".
For there are only kernel processes in the fs kernel and all of them
cooperate in the algorithm described in the File Server paper written by
Ken Thompson, it should be no problem to transfer the functionality of it
to the CPUterm kernel -- CPUterm kernel supports kernel processes,
and all the hardware that fs kernel needs + more.
With some #ifdefined'ing and a little (more or less) coding, we could
achieve the fully functional fileserver kernel from the CPUterm source.
One would be able to build different images from one source, depending on
whether he wanted to build a file server or a CPUterm server kernel . (I
also
believe that there could be a slight distinction between kernels intended
for
CPU servers and kernels meant for terminals. While enterprise CPU servers
are probably not going to need devices like VGA and sound, they should
be given the opportunity to be free of them, terminals, on the other hand,
might need some of the multimedia drivers.
The scheduler could also be optimised for compute-bound processes on CPU
kernels and for transput-bound processes on term kernels.)
Well, what do you think?
Jakub Jermar
--upas-nejbmsfatfobvzzrvnltniqsya--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 07:05:25 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:05:25 -0500
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
Message-ID: <20001109070527.BFA6A199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
(I also believe that there could be a slight distinction between kernels intended
for CPU servers and kernels meant for terminals. While enterprise CPU servers
are probably not going to need devices like VGA and sound, they should
be given the opportunity to be free of them, terminals, on the other hand,
might need some of the multimedia drivers.
Although, as Jim points out, you are quite right overall,
this part we already do: see the differences between
/sys/src/9/pc/pcdisk and /sys/src/9/pc/pccpu.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 07:24:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:24:12 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001109072416.23432199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i didn't forget acd, i just didn't flesh out the
list. there's a good bunch of graphics programs;
even more for 2nd edition, which used pretty much
the same theory, if a totally different mechanism.
faces, ip/gping, stats, page, proof... you get the
idea. there's a bunch, but i still say we're short
on applications making use of this. as i've said
before, i still want the fb suite back. there's
various media players i'd like. i could go on.
my point was just that rio can do it; i stopped
listing things when i though i had made that point.
-Îą.
From cnielsen@pobox.com Thu Nov 9 08:17:07 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:17:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
In-Reply-To: <20001109070058.17E9D199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> after saying so for years, i have actually started on
> merging the kernels. but don't hold your breath, there
> are lots of things to get in the way.
You've mentioned this to me privately. Knowing my own skills
and familiarity with plan9, I'll assume you're going to be
better at unifying the kernels than I, but if there is
anything I can do to help, let me know. I can at least act
as a alpha/beta tester.
--
Christopher Nielsen
(enkhyl|cnielsen)@pobox.com
"Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." --rob pike
From cnielsen@pobox.com Thu Nov 9 08:21:19 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:21:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
oops... *sheepish grin*
That was meant to be private, but hey... :-)
On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Christopher Nielsen wrote:
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 00:17:07 -0800 (PST)
> From: Christopher Nielsen
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> Subject: Re: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
>
> On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>
> > after saying so for years, i have actually started on
> > merging the kernels. but don't hold your breath, there
> > are lots of things to get in the way.
>
> You've mentioned this to me privately. Knowing my own skills
> and familiarity with plan9, I'll assume you're going to be
> better at unifying the kernels than I, but if there is
> anything I can do to help, let me know. I can at least act
> as a alpha/beta tester.
--
Christopher Nielsen
(enkhyl|cnielsen)@pobox.com
"Not only is UNIX dead, it's starting to smell really bad." --rob pike
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 09:33:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Greg Shubin)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:33:03 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001108183912.5957A199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A09AE3B.8ABB4D07@sonic.net>
Russ Cox wrote:
> Dodging the C++ bomb shell (quiet, Boyd!), I think I
> would summarize my view of the feeling by saying that
> Plan 9 provides you with a new perspective on how
> to implement various things that in Unix are taken
> for granted as the ``only way to fly''.
>
> The bash features you cite are a great example: instead of
> endowing the shell with command completion, history
> using arrow keys, and emacs command editing, Plan 9 puts
> roughly equivalent capabilities in the hands of the window
> system: you can edit any text in any rio window, cut, paste,
> etc. The feel is different, but now it applies to _all_ applications,
> not just the shell, and without requiring everything to link
> against the GNU readline library.
In my limited experience with Plan 9, I found the "history" just about
useless compared with bash. With bash, I can let the computer grep a few
thousand lines of history, and select whatever is appropriate. With the
Plan 9 cut and paste, I have to visually search, then move from the
keyboard to the mouse and back. Plus I only get a page or two of history.
Also, does Plan 9/rc have [command | filename] completion? I haven't
found it yet. (maybe I should RTFM?)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 09:33:42 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:33:42 GMT
Subject: [9fans] WTB: Old Digital DEC PDP-8 Computer Or Software
Message-ID:
I am looking to purchase an old PDP-8 minicomputer like the PDP-8/E or PDP-8/M, etc... I am also looking for any spare boards, manuals, or software.
If you have any of the above available then please e-mail me at johnb@teachers.org
john.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 09:34:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alberto Nava)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:34:01 GMT
Subject: [9fans] devlml.c status
Message-ID: <3A0A122C.83670A9F@ncube.com>
Hi,
I was wondering what's the status of
devlml.c on the current distribution.
Does it work? Which boards?
I couldn't find any programs to interactive
with it. It looks like it shares buffers with
the user, so a special program is required :-(.
Thanks
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 11:48:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:48:26 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID:
> X is usefull for talking to Unix
> systems (which many of us still have to do on ocasion,
> unfortunatly)
VNC does this job admirably (and also talks to Windows, NT, et al).
-- Richard
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 13:48:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:48:03 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001109135314.BEF4E199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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Acme's use of mouse button 2 to execute a command addresses requirements
of the history feature of shells. This idea was imported from Wirth's Oberon.
In Oberon you only have to type a command once and it live forever in a text
window. This is simular to the Acme guides. You don't have to look
through thousands of lines of output with some small number of commands all mixed.
The Oberon and acme interfaces allow these functions for ANY program,
not just the shell. I don't miss the virtual roll of TI Silent 300 terminal paper.
Look closely at Acme. It takes some work to break free of the tyranny of the
old ways.
Brantley Coile
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:33:03 GMT
Russ Cox wrote:
> Dodging the C++ bomb shell (quiet, Boyd!), I think I
> would summarize my view of the feeling by saying that
> Plan 9 provides you with a new perspective on how
> to implement various things that in Unix are taken
> for granted as the ``only way to fly''.
>
> The bash features you cite are a great example: instead of
> endowing the shell with command completion, history
> using arrow keys, and emacs command editing, Plan 9 puts
> roughly equivalent capabilities in the hands of the window
> system: you can edit any text in any rio window, cut, paste,
> etc. The feel is different, but now it applies to _all_ applications,
> not just the shell, and without requiring everything to link
> against the GNU readline library.
In my limited experience with Plan 9, I found the "history" just about
useless compared with bash. With bash, I can let the computer grep a few
thousand lines of history, and select whatever is appropriate. With the
Plan 9 cut and paste, I have to visually search, then move from the
keyboard to the mouse and back. Plus I only get a page or two of history.
Also, does Plan 9/rc have [command | filename] completion? I haven't
found it yet. (maybe I should RTFM?)
--upas-twwgyoedlnkuptqxsqftggviue--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 14:01:18 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:01:18 -0500
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001109142326.3091D199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
You wouldn't feel the need for history so much if you
didn't type such long commands. Try mk or make or
defining a function. It's much less work to type
mk
than
gcc -Isomenonstandardplace -Dverylongoption -Wpleasedontcomplainaboutmyprogramiknowhatimdoing ilikethingstobeclearsoigivemyfileslongnames.c
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 14:24:31 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:24:31 -0500
Subject: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
Message-ID: <20001109142433.E0A87199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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We're already redoing the fs to run off of the same kernel. The reason
for the current dichotomy is that ken was doing the file server while
the rest of us were doing the normal kernel. We started from some common
code but that didn't last very long. We've lived with the situation
because Ken was willing to do all the work on the fs side and didn't
feel comfortable with the rate of change in our kernels, i.e., the
file server had to be solid, our lives depended on it, while the
other kernels just had to be up long enough to edit and compile
the next kernel.
Now that ken is leaving, we're going to have one kernel. It also
means that we can use the same IP stack on both sides, which will
be a big win.
--upas-qcnnwmnvgkkejtfaoaimfkmiwv
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From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
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it's worse than you know, some drivers are used in 5 different
operating systems, all requiring them to be mangled to fit, it's
a maintenance headache i'm well aware of.
after saying so for years, i have actually started on merging the
kernels. but don't hold your breath, there are lots of things to
get in the way.
--upas-nejbmsfatfobvzzrvnltniqsya
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: Jakub Jermar
Message-ID: <8u9s02$gtf$1@news.vol.cz>
Organization: Video On Line
References: <20001107153158.01B89199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] fs kernel: eagle
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:22:57 GMT
> I suppose I could remove them, I remove the dregs of other dead hardware
> when I find them. Hands up, who knows what this typedef in
fs/port/portdat.h
> was for:
> typedef struct Bit Bit;
> If you know, I pity you.
I don't know what purpose was 'typedef struct Bit Bit' for -- I guess
I was only ten or so when Plan 9 used to be proud of
the SGI Power multiprocessor servers...
But now I see that things like the Bit typedef, Eagle and Jaguar drivers
merely ARE
and their one and only task is silent being in the kernel. No doubts they
should
go.
Besides these fossils, there is another thing that I would like to point
out. Both fs and CPUterm kernels suffer mutual duplication of code.
I've done a private survey on this issue in both kernels and found the
following simillarities/duplicities:
all kinds of locks
pieces of scheduler including sleep() and wakeup()
clock and time planning
interrupt dispatching
PCI, CGA, keyboard, floppy
ethernets (etherlnk3, 82557, 2114x), ethernet generic interface
scsi (NCR53c8xx), scsi generic interface
IP protocols...
...and possibly many more.
The result of my survey brought me to thoughts like: "let's have only one
Plan 9 kernel".
For there are only kernel processes in the fs kernel and all of them
cooperate in the algorithm described in the File Server paper written by
Ken Thompson, it should be no problem to transfer the functionality of it
to the CPUterm kernel -- CPUterm kernel supports kernel processes,
and all the hardware that fs kernel needs + more.
With some #ifdefined'ing and a little (more or less) coding, we could
achieve the fully functional fileserver kernel from the CPUterm source.
One would be able to build different images from one source, depending on
whether he wanted to build a file server or a CPUterm server kernel . (I
also
believe that there could be a slight distinction between kernels intended
for
CPU servers and kernels meant for terminals. While enterprise CPU servers
are probably not going to need devices like VGA and sound, they should
be given the opportunity to be free of them, terminals, on the other hand,
might need some of the multimedia drivers.
The scheduler could also be optimised for compute-bound processes on CPU
kernels and for transput-bound processes on term kernels.)
Well, what do you think?
Jakub Jermar
--upas-nejbmsfatfobvzzrvnltniqsya--
--upas-qcnnwmnvgkkejtfaoaimfkmiwv--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 14:02:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Sape Mullender)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:02:38 -0500
Subject: [9fans] devlml.c status
Message-ID: <20001109142555.24BEB199ED@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I wrote devlml.c. It is a driver for an older version of the Linuxmedia
video card. I understand there is a new version of it that does integrated
sound and video. I plan to get one of those new cards in January and
do a new driver for it.
The current one indeed requires special software to interact with it.
The application shares a circular buffer in memory with the driver. The
driver can write uncompressed data into the frame buffer, reading or
writing compressed data (Motion Jpeg (i.e. not MPEG)) into that circular
buffer.
If you have a linuxmedia board I can give you the user-space software;
if you don't, but you might want to buy one, wait until early next year.
Sape
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 15:29:46 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:29:46 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001109142804.103B319A05@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i have to say that although i get along with the plan 9 way quite
happily, i do have a sneaking regret for the rc history file that was
provided with unix rc. i never deleted it, which meant that if vaguely
remembered a slightly contorted ad hoc rc script that i'd typed some
months back, i could always find it (NFS file appending bugs
permitting...)
at the end of my last job the history file contained about 70,000
commands, if i remember rightly...
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 14:42:42 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:42:42 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001109142804.103B319A05@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <03f201c04a5b$5159e8a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
i believe that history was taken out of the plan 9 rc
'cos nobody used it. rob is right. all those horrible
gnu tools with their ridiculous options. on unix i need
history, on plan 9 i don't. the text is in the window.
just pick it up and send it. if it's complex, write
a function or use 'mk'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 14:50:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:50:30 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109142326.3091D199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <03f801c04a5c$683f4f00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
when i was fooling around with the unix 9term i added
'look' on button 2, but i couldn't convince rob that
this was a good idea. fortunately i had ultrix and
it had undocumented pty messages to tell you when
the tty modes had changed. otherwise it was an
ioctl for each character typed -- ugly.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 15:01:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:01:12 0000
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID:
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--upas-okfanwmylynvctaswlhyojayyp
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> I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> connect to my ISP with PAP?
Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
PAP authentication. Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
(password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.
The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:
% ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass
-- Richard
--upas-okfanwmylynvctaswlhyojayyp
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#!/bin/rc
#
# command: boddle /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp .
# srcdir: /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
# version: 973778772
# date: Thu Nov 9 14:06:12 GMT 2000
#
myname=$0
doextract=no
fn usage{
echo $myname: usage: $myname '[-X] [src-directory]' >[1=2]
exit usage
}
fn sigint{
rm -rf 973778772
exit interrupt
}
while(~ $1 -*){
switch($1){
case -X
doextract=yes
case -*
usage
}
shift
}
switch($#*){
case 0
srcdir=/sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
case 1
srcdir=$1
case *
usage
}
if(! ~ $doextract yes){
echo This shell file contains a bundle of diffs representing changes
echo to original source files in the Plan 9 distribution. It will run
echo against the files in
echo ' ' $srcdir
echo '(unless overridden by the optional source directory argument)'
echo and create a directory 973778772 containing the updated files.
echo It will NOT automatically update the original files.
echo
echo Invoke with argument -X to perform the actual extraction.
exit 0
}
rm -rf 973778772
mkdir 973778772
target=973778772/ppp.c
echo -n '973778772/ppp.c: '
if(! test -f $srcdir/ppp.c || ! test -r $srcdir/ppp.c){
echo $srcdir/ppp.c unreadable
exit unreadable
}
sum=`{sum < $srcdir/ppp.c}
if(! ~ 904fd29c49640 $sum(1)^$sum(2)){
echo $srcdir/ppp.c is not the original distribution file
exit original
}
cp $srcdir/ppp.c 973778772/ppp.c
sed s/.// <<'//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.c' | ed 973778772/ppp.c >/dev/null >[2=1]
-1919a
-static void
-papinit(PPP *ppp)
-{
- Block *b;
- Lcpmsg *m;
- Chap *c;
- int len, nlen, slen;
-
- c = ppp->chap;
- c->id++;
- netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, ppp->secret);
-
- nlen = strlen(ppp->chapname);
- slen = strlen(ppp->secret);
- len = 4 + 1 + nlen + 1 + slen;
- b = alloclcp(Pauthreq, c->id, len, &m);
-
- *b->wptr++ = nlen;
- memmove(b->wptr, ppp->chapname, nlen);
- b->wptr += nlen;
- *b->wptr++ = slen;
- memmove(b->wptr, ppp->secret, slen);
- b->wptr += slen;
- hnputs(m->len, len);
- putframe(ppp, Ppasswd, b);
- freeb(b);
-}
-
-static void
-getpap(PPP *ppp, Block *b)
-{
- Lcpmsg *m;
- int len;
-
- m = (Lcpmsg*)b->rptr;
- len = 4;
- if(BLEN(b) < 4 || BLEN(b) < (len = nhgets(m->len))){
- syslog(0, LOG, "short pap message (%ld < %d)", BLEN(b), len);
- freeb(b);
- return;
- }
- if(len < sizeof(Lcpmsg))
- m->data[0] = 0;
-
- qlock(ppp);
- switch(m->code){
- case Pauthack:
- netlog("PPP: pap succeeded\n");
- setphase(ppp, Pnet);
- break;
- case Pauthnak:
- netlog("PPP: pap failed (%d:%.*s)\n", m->data[0], m->data[0], (char*)m->data+1);
- dying = 1;
- }
- qunlock(ppp);
- freeb(b);
-}
-.
-1415a
- case Ppasswd:
- getpap(ppp, b);
- break;
-.
-942a
- if(pap)
- ppp->chap->proto = APpasswd;
-.
-799a
- if(proto == Ppasswd && !server){
- pap = 1;
- continue;
- }
-.
-754a
- pap = 0;
-.
-738c
- ulong rejecting, nacking, flags, proto, pap;
-.
-240a
- else if(ppp->chap->proto == APpasswd)
- papinit(ppp);
-.
-91a
-static void papinit(PPP*);
-static void getpap(PPP*, Block*);
-.
-wq
//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.c
sum=`{sum < 973778772/ppp.c}
if(~ 76e4eaf151025 $sum(1)^$sum(2))
echo
if not{
echo 973778772/ppp.c checksum error creating updated file
exit checksum
}
target=973778772/ppp.h
echo -n '973778772/ppp.h: '
if(! test -f $srcdir/ppp.h || ! test -r $srcdir/ppp.h){
echo $srcdir/ppp.h unreadable
exit unreadable
}
sum=`{sum < $srcdir/ppp.h}
if(! ~ 386b09777989 $sum(1)^$sum(2)){
echo $srcdir/ppp.h is not the original distribution file
exit original
}
cp $srcdir/ppp.h 973778772/ppp.h
sed s/.// <<'//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.h' | ed 973778772/ppp.h >/dev/null >[2=1]
-134a
-
- /* Pap codes */
- Pauthreq= 1,
- Pauthack= 2,
- Pauthnak= 3,
-.
-113a
- APpasswd= Ppasswd, /* use Pap, not Chap */
-.
-wq
//GO.SYSIN DD VADIM ppp.h
sum=`{sum < 973778772/ppp.h}
if(~ b5120e548094 $sum(1)^$sum(2))
echo
if not{
echo 973778772/ppp.h checksum error creating updated file
exit checksum
}
--upas-okfanwmylynvctaswlhyojayyp--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 16:15:49 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:15:49 0000
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001109151413.6EC1219A08@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-qkrzwtuuepksetawppxztckihh
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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some long commands don't deserve to be put into a function. i'm
thinking of the usual only-useful-this-time one-shots like
for (i in `{tail -4000 odd | tr ' ' '\012' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | sed 's/ *[0-9]+ //'}) {
if (test -f $home/dict/$i) {echo strange}
}
although it's probably never going to be used again, sometimes one
remembers "oh yes, i did something like that a while back" and it's
nice if it hasn't gone forever.
acme win is better than rio, where a reasonable amount of debug output
causes all previously typed commands in that window to be lost.
i'm sure there must be a better way.
rog.
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Subject: [9fans] History
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:01:18 -0500
You wouldn't feel the need for history so much if you
didn't type such long commands. Try mk or make or
defining a function. It's much less work to type
mk
than
gcc -Isomenonstandardplace -Dverylongoption -Wpleasedontcomplainaboutmyprogramiknowhatimdoing ilikethingstobeclearsoigivemyfileslongnames.c
-rob
--upas-qkrzwtuuepksetawppxztckihh--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 15:20:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Axel Belinfante)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 16:20:29 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:50:30 +0100."
<03f801c04a5c$683f4f00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
References: <20001109142326.3091D199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
<03f801c04a5c$683f4f00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <200011091520.QAA04470@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl>
> when i was fooling around with the unix 9term i added
> 'look' on button 2, but i couldn't convince rob that
> this was a good idea.
I occasionally use the 'fwd' and 'bkwd' button-3 entries
in unix 9term to find back commands in a window that contains
a lot of output, by looking backwards for the prompt.
For such things these entries are quite useful,
in my experience.
Axel.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 15:26:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:26:54 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109151413.6EC1219A08@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <041001c04a61$7de95260$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
> i'm sure there must be a better way.
i just used so save 'em all in a directory called 'hacks'.
anyway, i'd stepwise refine the command, and editing it with
sam was a lot easier than dicking around with history/xterm.
one click to write it. one xterm click to execute. not
perfect, but i could live with it.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 15:30:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 15:30:53 0000
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID:
Oops .. after applying the PAP update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp, you might want to
change the following line:
netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, ppp->secret);
to
netlog("PPP: pap: send authreq %d %s %s\n", c->id, ppp->chapname, "****");
to prevent your ISP password from appearing in debugging output.
-- Richard
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 16:10:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (erik quanstrom)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:10:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001109161043.18D5DC5F5@conchobor.berzerked.org>
heck, i've got 7 years and 1/4 million lines of history. ;-)
i think that's the real utility of history. since rc lets
you do fairly complicated things on the command line,
sometimes the history is the only way to drege up the
code you wrote a couple of months^wdays ago.
erik
------------------
i have to say that although i get along with the plan 9 way quite
happily, i do have a sneaking regret for the rc history file that was
provided with unix rc. i never deleted it, which meant that if vaguely
remembered a slightly contorted ad hoc rc script that i'd typed some
months back, i could always find it (NFS file appending bugs
permitting...)
at the end of my last job the history file contained about 70,000
commands, if i remember rightly...
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 16:39:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:39:29 0000
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
if you are intent for whatever reason on capturing, recovering, and
especially modifying typed input on the fly (as with command
completion but other things as well), i'd plug something (cf. pipefile)
between typist and the recipient of the typing. it could keep as much
history as desired, make the contents available as a real or virtual
file, and generally do what it liked. putting the facility in the
shell alone seems to assume that's the only thing that would ever
benefit (which probably explains why so many other applications on gnunix
include readline, so lots-but-not-all typed-at commands get it, not just bash).
since the typed-editing-history facility is used interactively, would
tend to me to suggest that it belongs (only) along a path of interaction.
there are several points where that could be done, depending on the desired
scale of memory.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 16:51:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Dave Atkin)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:51:56 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <973787527.26907.0.nnrp-01.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
As a relative newcomer to Plan 9 I find it a bit "mouse-centric".
I don't believe it's easier to find a command in an acme window and
then flaff around with mouse button 2 to execute it (trying not to
accidentally execute half of the next line, too!) than it is to hit
the cursor-up key in old fashioned shells like tcsh. It's not a
question of tyranny of the old ways, rather it's a question of ease of
use, sometimes at the end of a hard day, and the number of muscles you
need to use to perform a common operation.
Also, the virtual roll of terminal paper has a splendid audit trail
capability. There's no chance of looking back in a Plan 9 window to
see what you did previously because you've probably edited half the
commands to make new ones!
Dave Atkin
>
> Acme's use of mouse button 2 to execute a command addresses requirements
> of the history feature of shells. This idea was imported from Wirth's Oberon.
> In Oberon you only have to type a command once and it live forever in a text
> window. This is simular to the Acme guides. You don't have to look
> through thousands of lines of output with some small number of commands all mixed.
> The Oberon and acme interfaces allow these functions for ANY program,
> not just the shell. I don't miss the virtual roll of TI Silent 300 terminal paper.
> Look closely at Acme. It takes some work to break free of the tyranny of the
> old ways.
>
> Brantley Coile
>
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 17:44:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:44:53 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001109174513.A521F199ED@mail.cse.psu.edu>
well, to answer your question first, no, rc has no command or
filename completion. moving on... if you found the "history"
provided by Plan 9 (i assume you mean rio) "useless" i suggest
you spend some more time getting used to it. being able to see
the output associated with a command a big win. the editing of
input and output is huge, too. they're certainly not the same,
but it's a far cry from "useless".
i will, however conceed that being able to search the history
would be quite useful. Acme provides this automatically. i'm
aware of the concern about making the button 2 menu in rio
too long, but i still think i'd be in favor of "look".
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 17:48:18 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:48:18 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001109174824.1DD92199FB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//VNC does this job admirably
true, but only if the system in question has a
VNC server installed on it, right? i have unix
boxes i'd like to talk to on which i don't have
root, like my university account. and the
admins there arn't particularly open to taking
user requests for software additions.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 17:51:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:51:45 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001109175152.47F89199EF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
you don't need to be root to run a vnc server.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:53:06 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:53:06 0000
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <20001109175507.A3CBC199FE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hi
I have done an initial draft for what can be considered to be
`A commentary on Plan9', it's a (189 pages) description of how the
kernel works (terminal/cpu only, not the fs kernel, sorry).
Although my english is kind of poor, and I've found that some things I
wrote are incorrect (and many others will still be incorrect), I'd
really love to get some feedback on the text. My students are going
to suffer the text during the next semester in my OS design course.
Be warned that I'm still rewriting parts of the last couple of
chapters. Beware that I also described some things in the first
chapters, which I've later found that were wrong (while doing the last
chapters)
I wouldn't like to put it on the web (yet) until you 9fans guys have
the chance to let me know what you think, and I have the chance to fix
things up. So, if any of you would like to take a look at this thing
(please, do :-) ), just send me an email. I'll send you back a
postscript.
Hope to hear from u soon.
cheers
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:05:17 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:05:17 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: someone thinking about trying plan 9
Message-ID: <20001109180521.83973199FA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//you don't need to be root to run a vnc server.
true, but in addition to admins who don't really
care what their users want, we've got disk
quotas; an awful combination. i need to build my
own copies of mk, sam, rc... even things like
pgp don't find their way onto their boxes. the
source and binaries quicly eat up that quota.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:05:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:05:56 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <20001109180558.14FDE199FA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Sure, I'd like to see it.
If you've already sent it to others here just let me know
who it was and I'll get it form them.
Thanks, Jim.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:07:41 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:07:41 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <20001109180742.67DAF19A0D@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Ooops. Sorry about that. This new fangled e-mail stuff is
hard to learn.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 19:14:24 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:14:24 0000
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <20001109181243.DB5BF19A07@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-mktermdhqizsflklxrwmrfzxxs
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i'd like a copy.
rog.
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Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
List-Archive:
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:53:06 0000
Hi
I have done an initial draft for what can be considered to be
`A commentary on Plan9', it's a (189 pages) description of how the
kernel works (terminal/cpu only, not the fs kernel, sorry).
Although my english is kind of poor, and I've found that some things I
wrote are incorrect (and many others will still be incorrect), I'd
really love to get some feedback on the text. My students are going
to suffer the text during the next semester in my OS design course.
Be warned that I'm still rewriting parts of the last couple of
chapters. Beware that I also described some things in the first
chapters, which I've later found that were wrong (while doing the last
chapters)
I wouldn't like to put it on the web (yet) until you 9fans guys have
the chance to let me know what you think, and I have the chance to fix
things up. So, if any of you would like to take a look at this thing
(please, do :-) ), just send me an email. I'll send you back a
postscript.
Hope to hear from u soon.
cheers
--upas-mktermdhqizsflklxrwmrfzxxs--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 19:25:46 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:25:46 0000
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <20001109182401.679C619A0A@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> Ooops. Sorry about that. This new fangled e-mail stuff is
> hard to learn.
ho ho.
i was just kicking myself for doing exactly the same thing!
at least i'm in good company.
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:34:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:34:57 -0500
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001109183459.1DEAA199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Now that you've recovered your breath from laughing uproariously at my
joke this morning - oh, was that politics you were laughing at? sorry
- anyway, here's what I do for history. I've sent them before but I
keep tweaking them and maybe it's time to send them again. You need
to fix the pattern to match your prompt. It's an exercise for the
reader to see how they work and how to use them. Based on an idea
from rsc, I think. I hardly ever use them when I have a mouse, but if
I'm stuck with a nipple-mouse I use them a lot.
-rob
% cat /bin/"
#!/bin/rc
rfork en
if(test -r /mnt/acme/acme/body)
bind /mnt/acme/acme/body /dev/text
PROMPT='[^ ]*%+[ ]+'
fn cmds {
grep '^'$PROMPT'[^"]' /dev/text | sed 's/^/ /'
}
switch($#*) {
case 0
cmds | tail -1
case *
cmds | grep '^ '$PROMPT^$"* | {echo; cat} |
pr -t -n | sort -nr | sort -u +1 | sort -n |
sed 's/^ *[0-9]+ //' | grep .
}
# the silly {echo; cat} gets around pr printing "empty file" when
# presented with no input.
% cat /bin/""
#!/bin/rc
rfork e
PROMPT='[^ ]*%+[ ]+'
_x = `{" $* | tail -1}
if(~ $#_x 0) {
echo no such command found
exit notfound
}
echo $_x
_x=`{ echo -n 'eval '; echo $_x | sed 's/^'$PROMPT'//'}
rc -c $"_x
%
From Mark_Otto@FWS.Gov Thu Nov 9 18:37:18 2000
From: Mark_Otto@FWS.Gov (Mark C. Otto)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:37:18 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
References: <20001109175507.A3CBC199FE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A0AEEDE.543736F8@FWS.Gov>
Estimado Dr. Nemo,
Quiero una copia de tu manuscrito de Un Commentario sobre Plan9. Creo que un
archivo de .pdf es mas pequeno. Gracias.
Mark
9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu wrote:
>
> From: nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es@cse.psu.edu on 11/09/2000 06:53 PM GMT
>
> Please respond to 9fans@cse.psu.edu
>
> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
> cc:
> Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel
> source"?
>
> Hi
>
> I have done an initial draft for what can be considered to be
> `A commentary on Plan9', it's a (189 pages) description of how the
> kernel works (terminal/cpu only, not the fs kernel, sorry).
>
> Although my english is kind of poor, and I've found that some things I
> wrote are incorrect (and many others will still be incorrect), I'd
> really love to get some feedback on the text. My students are going
> to suffer the text during the next semester in my OS design course.
>
> Be warned that I'm still rewriting parts of the last couple of
> chapters. Beware that I also described some things in the first
> chapters, which I've later found that were wrong (while doing the last
> chapters)
>
> I wouldn't like to put it on the web (yet) until you 9fans guys have
> the chance to let me know what you think, and I have the chance to fix
> things up. So, if any of you would like to take a look at this thing
> (please, do :-) ), just send me an email. I'll send you back a
> postscript.
>
> Hope to hear from u soon.
>
> cheers
--
Mark Otto, Biological Statistician work: 301-497-5872
Population and Habitat Assessment Section fax: 301-497-5871
Office of Migratory Bird Management e-mail: Mark_Otto@FWS.Gov
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 07:45:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Kilbane)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 07:45:35 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2000 00:15:14 +0100."
<025f01c049d9$c04d5bc0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <200011090745.HAA13892@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
> ok, i'll tell you one story:
>
> programs that compiled one day would not compile the next day
>
> with this sort of reliability, would you choose it as a programming
> language -- and that's long before the bloat.
well, that's not particularly uncommon in the very early days of a
programming language. how many times has ken said they decided not
to change something in the early unix because they now had three
sites with installations? sun learned from that, and allowed java
to continue developing in the early days, leading to the same "problem".
where it becomes a problem is when the language *keeps* changing.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:54:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:54:21 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
Message-ID: <20001109185932.A127419A13@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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> I don't believe it's easier to find a command in an acme window and
> then flaff around with mouse button 2 to execute it (trying not to
> accidentally execute half of the next line, too!) than it is to hit
> the cursor-up key in old fashioned shells like tcsh.
I keep the commands in a text file. I don't use Win that much.
> It's not a
> question of tyranny of the old ways, rather it's a question of ease of
> use, sometimes at the end of a hard day, and the number of muscles you
> need to use to perform a common operation.
I kind of like moving my arms.
> Also, the virtual roll of terminal paper has a splendid audit trail
> capability. There's no chance of looking back in a Plan 9 window to
> see what you did previously because you've probably edited half the
> commands to make new ones!
> Dave Atkin
I suggest using ed(1) then, you even get an audit trail of your
editing. :-)
Brantley Coile
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From: Dave Atkin
Message-ID: <973787527.26907.0.nnrp-01.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK
Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:51:56 GMT
As a relative newcomer to Plan 9 I find it a bit "mouse-centric".
I don't believe it's easier to find a command in an acme window and
then flaff around with mouse button 2 to execute it (trying not to
accidentally execute half of the next line, too!) than it is to hit
the cursor-up key in old fashioned shells like tcsh. It's not a
question of tyranny of the old ways, rather it's a question of ease of
use, sometimes at the end of a hard day, and the number of muscles you
need to use to perform a common operation.
Also, the virtual roll of terminal paper has a splendid audit trail
capability. There's no chance of looking back in a Plan 9 window to
see what you did previously because you've probably edited half the
commands to make new ones!
Dave Atkin
>
> Acme's use of mouse button 2 to execute a command addresses requirements
> of the history feature of shells. This idea was imported from Wirth's Oberon.
> In Oberon you only have to type a command once and it live forever in a text
> window. This is simular to the Acme guides. You don't have to look
> through thousands of lines of output with some small number of commands all mixed.
> The Oberon and acme interfaces allow these functions for ANY program,
> not just the shell. I don't miss the virtual roll of TI Silent 300 terminal paper.
> Look closely at Acme. It takes some work to break free of the tyranny of the
> old ways.
>
> Brantley Coile
>
--upas-bahxpeuvpvdkocfggzsvpkrzlg--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 20:02:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:02:03 0000
Subject: [9fans] 9 notes
Message-ID: <20001109190022.1D6AF19A17@mail.cse.psu.edu>
it's worth pointing out that page likes nemo's postscript
better if you've run:
Edit ,x/^%DVIPSSectionPage:/c/%%Page:/
on it.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 18:55:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Simon)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:55:57 -0000
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
Message-ID: <00c801c04a7e$b2a97a80$a3fdedc1@paris>
I would be very interested in a copy of this
-Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: nemo@gsyc.escet.urjc.es
Newsgroups: comp.os.plan9
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 6:11 PM
Subject: [9fans] Would you want "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd ed. kernel source"?
>Hi
>
> I have done an initial draft for what can be considered to be
>`A commentary on Plan9', it's a (189 pages) description of how the
>kernel works (terminal/cpu only, not the fs kernel, sorry).
>
>Although my english is kind of poor, and I've found that some things I
>wrote are incorrect (and many others will still be incorrect), I'd
>really love to get some feedback on the text. My students are going
>to suffer the text during the next semester in my OS design course.
>
>Be warned that I'm still rewriting parts of the last couple of
>chapters. Beware that I also described some things in the first
>chapters, which I've later found that were wrong (while doing the last
>chapters)
>
>I wouldn't like to put it on the web (yet) until you 9fans guys have
>the chance to let me know what you think, and I have the chance to fix
>things up. So, if any of you would like to take a look at this thing
>(please, do :-) ), just send me an email. I'll send you back a
>postscript.
>
>Hope to hear from u soon.
>
>cheers
>
>
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 20:10:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:10:26 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: 9 notes
Message-ID: <20001109190848.E647219A1F@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i wrote:
> it's worth pointing out that page likes nemo's postscript
> better if you've run:
>
> Edit ,x/^%DVIPSSectionPage:/c/%%Page:/
>
> on it.
sorry, that's rubbish. it dies after the first 15 pages or so.
i thought it was too good to be true.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 19:15:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:15:11 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <20001109174513.A521F199ED@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <048201c04a81$622fa4a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> i will, however conceed that being able to search the history
> would be quite useful. Acme provides this automatically. i'm
> aware of the concern about making the button 2 menu in rio
> too long, but i still think i'd be in favor of "look".
i believe that was rob's argument against 'look'. he wanted to
keep the button 2 menu short, which i agree with, but not in
this case. guess that's a feature of open source; i can add
it if i want it.
however i _would not_ add a forward/backward entry. that
would make the menu far too long and i've always found
that you could zip around a window pretty quickly, just by
a forward search
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 01:05:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Micah Stetson)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:05:30 -0800
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
In-Reply-To: <20001109062700.B29086@cackle.proxima.alt.za>; from lucio@proxima.alt.za on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 06:27:01AM +0200
References: <20001108231525.61B98199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu> <20001109062700.B29086@cackle.proxima.alt.za>
Message-ID: <20001109170530.A322@cnm-vra.com>
--X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Surely Rob should be arbitrator. I have not had time to look at the
> patch, but I'd like to point out one issue I have not examined and I
> don't think the patch addressed: the highlight termination does not work,
> vt (-2 is what I always use) waits for the end of line to turn highlight
> off.
Hmmn, I hadn't paid any attention to vt -2. I don't have
the problem without it and not always with it. Maybe
there's an unimplemented VT220 escape sequence that does
that. Let me grab the manual... (Incidentally, if you
want a user's guide, you can download one from vt100.net.
They have the manuals for several of the VT models including
the 100 102 and 220.) Hmmn...It looks like the VT220 uses
some nonzero arguments to the SGR control sequence (ESC[m)
to set certain kinds of standout to off. The current
implementation will not support this properly.
Attached is a diff against the version of vt.c that I posted
here a couple of days ago. This is still problematic as it
only handles the last option to the control sequence, but if
I'm going to fix that, I may as well do it for all of the
escape sequences. Also, it interprets the vt220 options
even when in vt100 mode which it probably shouldn't do, but
it does fix the problem for me.
There's still a lot to fix here, especially in vt220 mode,
so I'll get back to work.
Micah
--X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vt.c.diff"
56a57,63
> enum SGR {
> SGR_BOLD = 1,
> SGR_UNDER = 2,
> SGR_BLINK = 4,
> SGR_NEG = 8,
> };
>
439a447,451
> * Also for VT220:
> * 22 Normal intensity
> * 24 Not underlined
> * 25 Not blinking
> * 27 Positive image
442c454,482
< standout = operand;
---
> switch (operand) {
> case 0:
> standout = 0;
> break;
> case 1:
> standout |= SGR_BOLD;
> break;
> case 4:
> standout |= SGR_UNDER;
> break;
> case 5:
> standout |= SGR_BLINK;
> break;
> case 7:
> standout |= SGR_NEG;
> break;
> case 22:
> standout &= ~SGR_BOLD;
> break;
> case 24:
> standout &= ~SGR_UNDER;
> break;
> case 25:
> standout &= ~SGR_BLINK;
> break;
> case 27:
> standout &= ~SGR_NEG;
> break;
> }
--X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 19:48:19 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:48:19 -0500
Subject: [9fans] %DVIPSPage
Message-ID: <20001109194831.50777199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
that's a weird bug in the plan9 dvips setup.
if you do
dvips -Ppsfonts foo.dvi > foo.ps
or dvips -Pbitmapfonts foo.dvi > foo.ps
then you get nice %%Page: boundaries,
but if you do
dvips foo.dvi >foo.ps
or (i think) dvips -Pps foo.dvi >foo.ps
you get this weird %DVIPS stuff.
if any tex wizards out there know how
to fix this, please let me know.
thanks.
russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 21:15:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 16:15:29 -0500
Subject: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
Message-ID: <20001109211530.9CCDB199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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First. Am I right when supposing that the reason ilock() doesn't call
scheduler is that it has to be sure
that iunlock() executes on the same cpu?
In general, if you are doing an ilock, it should be for something that
can be done quickly. ilock is used when you're locking something that
an interrupt routine also uses and scheding in the middle of it would be
deadly.
Second. Why doesn't sleep() simply call sched() right after it releases both
locks? Am I unaware of some possible race condition?
Off hand, I can't see any particular reason other than tunnel vision
on our part. Looks like all we're doing is duplicating code with the
net effect of saving 2 subroutine calls (splhi and sched). I may try
it the other way and have Gerard Holtzman verify it again and see if
I'm missing something myself.
Third. It seems to me that sleep() might disable interrupts on a different
cpu than is the one that enables them again before sleep() finishes. Is it
ok when a process brings the old processor state to the new current
processor and leaves the old one in (say) the splhi()'d state?
Once you go frolicking through 'gotolabel(&m->sched)', the spl level
is lost, i.e., schedinit always starts hi and returns low: any
process coming out of a rescheduling comes out spllo(). That
means that calling sched() when you are splhi() is wrong. This
refers back to your first point. The processor that you did the sleep
on will go spllo while its looking for a new process to run and will
start that process up spllo.
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Subject: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 04:40:12 +0200
I am now reconsidering some aspects of sleeping, scheduling and ilocking
that I considered clear.
First. Am I right when supposing that the reason ilock() doesn't call
scheduler is that it has to be sure
that iunlock() executes on the same cpu?
Second. Why doesn't sleep() simply call sched() right after it releases both
locks? Am I unaware of some possible race condition?
Third. It seems to me that sleep() might disable interrupts on a different
cpu than is the one that enables them again before sleep() finishes. Is it
ok when a process brings the old processor state to the new current
processor and leaves the old one in (say) the splhi()'d state?
Jakub Jermar
--upas-hxbaipwqhdvpsobwvrhxhawbzu--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 21:52:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Kilbane)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 21:52:29 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Nov 2000 16:51:56 GMT."
<973787527.26907.0.nnrp-01.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200011092152.VAA00381@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
> I don't believe it's easier to find a command in an acme window and
> then flaff around with mouse button 2 to execute it (trying not to
> accidentally execute half of the next line, too!) than it is to hit
> the cursor-up key in old fashioned shells like tcsh.
I'd agree with that, but that only goes so far - the last few commands
are great, but then you start getting less return as you have to
linearly and manually search back through time.
Once you get into actually searching for things, then you're past the
simple up-arrow idea, and it's time to revisit. ye olde "=p pattern"
works well on a system that saves over time, and allows you to edit
the results before executing.
In addition to being "forever", the old rc history file was also
shareable across shells. With plan 9, it's shared across everything,
if you want. This may be good or bad, depending on your opinion
(and probably your mood).
> It's not a
> question of tyranny of the old ways, rather it's a question of ease of
> use, sometimes at the end of a hard day, and the number of muscles you
> need to use to perform a common operation.
I can't help but feel you can work around this, if you want. The great
thing about setting a prompt to whatever you want is that the prompt
can be your most commonly-executed command, if it helps. Having a
prompt like:
hist ;
could show your last ten commands immediately, ready for re-execution.
steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 9 22:00:46 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:00:46 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Re: Perl5 & kenji arisawa's perl question
References: <200011092152.VAA00381@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <050901c04a98$83dc2120$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Steve Kilbane
> Having a prompt like:
>
> hist ;
>
good point.
programming the inputs.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 02:11:32 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:11:32 -0500
Subject: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
Message-ID: <20001110023525.CC1E7199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
You never do anything that would schedule
or sleep when you hold an ilock.
Second, the ilock sets the processor splhi,
so you won't get interrupted.
Thus iunlock always happens on the ilock
processor.
Russ
From lucio@proxima.alt.za Fri Nov 10 04:14:16 2000
From: lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 06:14:16 +0200
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
In-Reply-To: <20001109170530.A322@cnm-vra.com>; from Micah Stetson on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:05:30PM -0800
References: <20001108231525.61B98199E9@mail.cse.psu.edu> <20001109062700.B29086@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <20001109170530.A322@cnm-vra.com>
Message-ID: <20001110061415.A381@cackle.proxima.alt.za>
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:05:30PM -0800, Micah Stetson wrote:
>
> > Surely Rob should be arbitrator. I have not had time to look at the
> > patch, but I'd like to point out one issue I have not examined and I
> > don't think the patch addressed: the highlight termination does not work,
> > vt (-2 is what I always use) waits for the end of line to turn highlight
> > off.
>
> Hmmn, I hadn't paid any attention to vt -2. I don't have
> the problem without it and not always with it. Maybe
> there's an unimplemented VT220 escape sequence that does
> that. Let me grab the manual... (Incidentally, if you
To answer Presotto's comment (was it private mail?) I bow to superior
knowledge :-) Micah is doing a spectacular job, and I'm dying to see the
final product.
++L
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 07:05:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:05:11 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: building drawterm on IRIX.
Message-ID: <20001110072551.04D9C199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
1. Is there a port of mk for Unix? drawterm comes with mkfile-Irix
etc., so that I assume this must be somewhere...
There is; it should be available from Vita Nuova before long.
2. Well I've scraped together some Makefiles. I get all sorts of
problems with IRIX #include files, to do with Posix issues,
which judging by the comments in the source is nothing new.
I have been using the cc -n32, which seems to get a different
set of problems to the o32. -xansi also has helped.
I've also tried -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=199506L
I'm wondering which version of IRIX you built this on?
Also what sort of graphic hardware?
I built it on IRIX 5.3, tested on an Indy and
on a Windows X server. It was running Irix cc.
I couldn't get it to build on our IRIX 6.2 box,
mainly because I think the only installed compiler
was gcc.
3. I eventually got a build complete. I get a
fatal("cannot detect x server byte order") in screen-x11.c,
in initmap().
I'm confused. Your pixels should be much wider.
That is, c.pixel should be something like 0x000099 or
0x990000. It's as though something else has decided
you're running on an 8-bit color mapped display.
Are you?
4. I'm wondering what I need to configure on the plan9 machine
while I still have a screen on it so that I can be able to
afterwards access it over the net with drawterm, or other means to
get a shell?
This is actually non-trivial. You need to set the machine
up as both a CPU server and an authentication server.
Information on both is in the start.pdf documentation.
Russ
From arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Fri Nov 10 08:28:34 2000
From: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp (arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:28:34 0900
Subject: [9fans] newns
Message-ID: <20001110082938.9949D199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello,
I have a question on the system library function "newns":
newns does not inform the line in /lib/namespace*
when it failed in building namespace.
That is, function "nsop" in newns.c does not check the result status
of the functions bind, mount, ... etc.
Are there anything wrong if newns returns when
it failed in executing these commands and report the problem ?
P.S.
I thought of that, because httpd does not work on my cpu server
with 9pccpudisk.
httpd fails at:
becomenone(char *namespace)
{ ...
if(newns("none", nil) < 0)
sysfatal("can't build normal namespace: %r");
...
}
of httpd.c, and the problem comes from:
mount -a /srv/net /net
in /lib/namespace
Of course I added a patch to newns to report the problem.
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 08:50:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:50:59 0000
Subject: [9fans] newns
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Yes, I'd noticed that. The ftp namespace is similar as well.
If you don't have /usr/web then anonymous users see
_everything_.
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Subject: [9fans] newns
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:28:34 0900
Hello,
I have a question on the system library function "newns":
newns does not inform the line in /lib/namespace*
when it failed in building namespace.
That is, function "nsop" in newns.c does not check the result status
of the functions bind, mount, ... etc.
Are there anything wrong if newns returns when
it failed in executing these commands and report the problem ?
P.S.
I thought of that, because httpd does not work on my cpu server
with 9pccpudisk.
httpd fails at:
becomenone(char *namespace)
{ ...
if(newns("none", nil) < 0)
sysfatal("can't build normal namespace: %r");
...
}
of httpd.c, and the problem comes from:
mount -a /srv/net /net
in /lib/namespace
Of course I added a patch to newns to report the problem.
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
--upas-ppywgmegcfnyeejbdhpapkhypk--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 09:17:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:17:26 +0100
Subject: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
References: <20001110023525.CC1E7199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <05a001c04af7$0b262280$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
multi-processor or not, a quick squiz at the lyons'
commentary would explain a lot.
you can derive a lot from first principles...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 09:35:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:35:56 GMT
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A0AE9EA.96265BA2@arl.army.mil>
forsyth@vitanuova.com wrote:
> if you are intent for whatever reason on capturing, recovering, and
> especially modifying typed input on the fly (as with command
> completion but other things as well), i'd plug something (cf. pipefile)
> between typist and the recipient of the typing.
Indeed, one measure of how good an operating system really is
is how transparent and efficient a program like BSD "script" is.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 09:35:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:35:40 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: WTB: Old Digital DEC PDP-8 Computer Or Software
References:
Message-ID: <3A0AE94A.8427076@arl.army.mil>
johnb@teachers.org wrote:
> I am looking to purchase an old PDP-8 minicomputer like the PDP-8/E or PDP-8/M, etc...
If you haven't already, be sure to check out Supnick's PDP-8 simulation
(C source code), which allows one to "use a PDP-8" on common hosts like
Windows PCs, UNIX, etc. (There are also simulations of several other
machines, including Nova, PDP-11, and [elsewhere] DDP-516.)
From arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Fri Nov 10 10:19:29 2000
From: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp (arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 19:19:29 0900
Subject: [9fans] Re: newns
Message-ID: <20001110102034.5206E199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello
I said:
>Are there anything wrong if newns returns when
>it failed in executing these commands and report the problem ?
/lib/namespace does not have if statement.
so every command must be executed without check.
By the way, user none cannot write "none" to "#c/user" on our current
system. Therefore
fd = open("#c/user", OWRITE);
in becomenone() in httpd.c failes.
It seems we should avoid writing in case that user is none.
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 11:36:37 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:36:37 0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: building drawterm on IRIX.
Message-ID: <20001110104105.D3607199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
>> 1. Is there a port of mk for Unix? drawterm comes with mkfile-Irix
>> etc., so that I assume this must be somewhere...
>>There is; it should be available from Vita Nuova before long.
free of charge in source form, i should add.
i've built the package but need to include some notes
and tidy up the (free) licence.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 11:54:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:54:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] #i: no frame buffer
Message-ID: <200011101154.eAABsjM04073@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
At last, I received the machines where I intend to install the new release
of Plan 9.
The system went nicely as a terminal (Pentium III/Xeon 733MHz on an
ASUS CUV4XM motherboard, HD IDE 15G, 3C905 TXM network card and Matrox
vga card based on MGA2164W AGP rev. 0).
Trying to configure the very same machine as a cpu/auth server, I
have the same 'bind: #i: no frame buffer' problem that some others
encountered.
I tried to add (blindly) in main.c:confinit the memory allocation
done on terminals, but if doesn't change anything.
I know video is not necessary on cpu servers, but out of curiosity,
has anyone a working draw device on a cpu server ?
jmehat@ai.univ-paris8.fr
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 13:06:55 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 08:06:55 -0500
Subject: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
Message-ID: <20001110130656.CD862199EA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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I can't figure out what you're asking. ilock() keeps interrupts from happening.
Therefore, unless you explicitly call sched() in the ilock'd code, you can't
move to a new processor because nothing else can run to switch the context.
Therefore, the ilock() will complete on the same processor.
If you do call sched() you're making a mistake. You will give up the processor
with the lock still held and any interrupt that needs the lock will deadlock.
That's the reason ilock exists as opposed to lock.
The same is true of the splhi and the lock's around sleep. The splhi is
there because wakeup can be called from interrupt level and hence the
process can't give up the processor until the locks are released. The
splx is necessary because we may not sleep and we need to return in the
same state we arrived. An spllo there would probably be good enough since
we don't expect sleep to be called splhi except by accident.
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From: "Jakub Jermar"
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
References: <20001109211530.9CCDB199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] sleep(), sched() and ilock()
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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 06:35:33 +0200
> First. Am I right when supposing that the reason ilock() doesn't call
> scheduler is that it has to be sure
> that iunlock() executes on the same cpu?
>
> In general, if you are doing an ilock, it should be for something that
> can be done quickly. ilock is used when you're locking something that
> an interrupt routine also uses and scheding in the middle of it would be
> deadly.
I understand that there can be a deadlock if both a process and an interrupt
race for one lock - therefore the concept of ilock(). I also understand why
ilock() dies when it finds the ilock locked on a uni-processor - because no
one can unlock it and, seen from the other side, ilock() must have been
called twice without first calling iunlock().
But I still don't know, whether iunlock() executing on the same cpu is a
goal (maybe because of the willingness to restore the processor state as it
appeared before ilock()???) or a mere consequence of the fact that there was
no rescheduling in between.
> Second. Why doesn't sleep() simply call sched() right after it releases
both
> locks? Am I unaware of some possible race condition?
>
> Off hand, I can't see any particular reason other than tunnel vision
> on our part. Looks like all we're doing is duplicating code with the
> net effect of saving 2 subroutine calls (splhi and sched). I may try
> it the other way and have Gerard Holtzman verify it again and see if
> I'm missing something myself.
That's interesting. Sleep is an example of routine that goes to scheduler
splhi()'ed (as you refer to in your comment to my third point). Furthemore,
it emulates the behaviour of normal sched() after the process resumes its
p->sched: it spllo()'s but immediately after it, there is splx(x) which
cancels the effect of spllo(), no matter what x was.
Actually, this function makes me think there must be a reason for it to
duplicate piece of sched(), but I can't figure out what it is. I thought it
was because of the two locks being held, but their releasing before
gotolabel(&m->sched) is as neccessary as it would have been if sleep() had
called the normal sched().
> Third. It seems to me that sleep() might disable interrupts on a different
> cpu than is the one that enables them again before sleep() finishes. Is it
> ok when a process brings the old processor state to the new current
> processor and leaves the old one in (say) the splhi()'d state?
>
> Once you go frolicking through 'gotolabel(&m->sched)', the spl level
> is lost, i.e., schedinit always starts hi and returns low: any
> process coming out of a rescheduling comes out spllo(). That
> means that calling sched() when you are splhi() is wrong. This
> refers back to your first point. The processor that you did the sleep
> on will go spllo while its looking for a new process to run and will
> start that process up spllo.
But when I gotolabel(&up->sched) in sched(), after it runproc()'s a new
process, it restores its PC
and SP. SP points to the process's stack which contains the process's x
(variable from sleep()) with previous processor state, which is restored in
sleep() on the current cpu afterwards.
I believe this is the way that sleeping and waking processes carry processor
state with them. Never mind if the two processors are not the same - I
realized the functionality must be the same - it works just as though there
was no processor switch (the emphasis must be on the code and not the
processor). If the process just gets rescheduled, it leaves sched()
spllo()'ed - just as you said..
Jakub Jermar
--upas-qmrztztwbtehutpkjwtkjwbfbj--
From Kenji Arisawa Fri Nov 10 08:19:03 2000
From: Kenji Arisawa (Kenji Arisawa )
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 100 21:42:09 +0900
Subject: [9fans] #i: no frame buffer
References: <200011101154.eAABsjM04073@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
Message-ID: <20001110131827.8DDBB199FF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello,
>Trying to configure the very same machine as a cpu/auth server, I
>have the same 'bind: #i: no frame buffer' problem that some others
>encountered.
distributed pccpudisk support only few vga
and pccpu support nothing.
change pccpudisk and pccpu as bellow.
(you can remove redundant vga support)
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
------------ /sys/src/9/pc/pccpudisk ------------
dev
root
cons
arch
env
pipe
proc
mnt
srv
dup
rtc
ssl
bridge
ether netif
ip arp dial inferno ip ipaux iproute kio netlog
nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386
draw screen vga vgax
mouse mouse
vga
sd
floppy dma
lpt
ns16552
astar pci
link
ether82557 pci
etherelnk3 pci
ethermedium
misc
archmp mp apic
ipconfig.root
kfs.root
sdata pci sdscsi
sd53c8xx pci sdscsi
sdmylex pci sdscsi
vga3dfx +cur
vgaark2000pv +cur
vgabt485 =cur
vgaclgd542x +cur
vgaclgd546x +cur
vgact65545 +cur
vgacyber938x +cur
vgahiqvideo +cur
vgamach64xx +cur
vgamga2164w +cur
vganeomagic +cur
vgargb524 =cur
vgas3 +cur vgasavage
vgat2r4 +cur
vgatvp3020 =cur
vgatvp3026 =cur
ip
il
tcp
udp
rudp
ipifc
icmp
gre
ipmux
port
int cpuserver = 1;
boot cpu boot #S/sdC0/
local
il
-------------- /sys/src/9/pc/pccpu ----------
dev
root
cons
arch
env
pipe
proc
mnt
mntstats
srv
dup
rtc
ssl
bridge
ether netif
ip arp dial inferno ip ipaux iproute kio netlog
nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386
draw screen vga vgax
mouse mouse
vga
sd
floppy dma
lpt
ns16552
link
ether2000 ether8390
ether2114x pci
ether79c970 pci
ether8003 ether8390
ether82557 pci
etherelnk3 pci
ethermedium
misc
archmp mp apic
ipconfig.root
sdata pci sdscsi
sd53c8xx pci sdscsi
sdmylex pci sdscsi
vga3dfx +cur
vgaark2000pv +cur
vgabt485 =cur
vgaclgd542x +cur
vgaclgd546x +cur
vgact65545 +cur
vgacyber938x +cur
vgahiqvideo +cur
vgamach64xx +cur
vgamga2164w +cur
vganeomagic +cur
vgargb524 =cur
vgas3 +cur vgasavage
vgat2r4 +cur
vgatvp3020 =cur
vgatvp3026 =cur
ip
il
tcp
udp
rudp
ipifc
icmp
gre
ipmux
port
int cpuserver = 1;
boot cpu
il
From steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Fri Nov 10 13:22:07 2000
From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com (steve.simon@snellwilcox.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:22:07 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Lions commentry
Message-ID: <1490787434@snellwilcox.com>
The origonal commentry is now republished
http://www.peer-to-peer.com/catalog/opsrc/lions.html
[ the cover photo could have been me when I was at UNSW :-) ]
He started doing one on Plan9 but it was never finished and was not
concidered worthy of his memory and was never released.
-Steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 15:33:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Fco. J. Ballesteros)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:33:59 +0000 (WET)
Subject: [9fans] #i: no frame buffer
In-Reply-To: <20001110131827.8DDBB199FF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
References: <200011101154.eAABsjM04073@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
<20001110131827.8DDBB199FF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <14860.5479.612904.602790@nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es>
I also had to edit my cpurc script to bind a couple extra devices.
Perhaps that's happening to you too.
>>>>> "arisawa" == arisawa writes:
arisawa> Hello,
>> Trying to configure the very same machine as a cpu/auth server,
>> I have the same 'bind: #i: no frame buffer' problem that some
>> others encountered.
arisawa> change pccpudisk and pccpu as bellow. (you can remove
arisawa> redundant vga support)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 14:37:44 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:37:44 -0500
Subject: [9fans] The VT saga
Message-ID: <20001110143745.CCA0E199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I have your diff but I seem to have misplaced your previous
version. Want to send me a pointer?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 15:10:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Dave Atkin)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:10:45 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Inferno and Plan 9 Newsletter from Vita Nuova
Message-ID: <973868464.27395.0.nnrp-08.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
The November 2000 Inferno and Plan 9 Newsletter is now available on the
Vita Nuova web site.
Inferno T-Shirts are now available!
Contents:
Introduction
Inferno News
- Contributions Area
- Inferno T-Shirts
- THUMB port coming soon
Plan 9 News
- Plan 9 T-Shirts
Company News
- Ordering Information for US and Canada
Links
- Recent Articles on the Web
User News
- Inferno Book and Limbo Article
- Plan 9 User Group set up in China
The newsletter can be found at
http://www.vitanuova.com/newsletter/Nov_2000.html
User contributions to the Newsletter will be rewarded with a free T-Shirt!
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 17:09:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:09:30 -0600
Subject: [9fans] I have PDP8E's
Message-ID:
--0__=86256993005E3DAC8f9e8a93df938690918c86256993005E3DAC
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
---------------------- Forwarded by William Ericson/Tivoli Systems on
11/10/2000 11:09 AM ---------------------------
William Ericson
11/10/2000 11:06 AM
To: johnb@teachers.org
cc:
Subject: I have PDP8E's
I have an extensive collection of DIgital Equipment machines - including
two PDP8E's, and manuals and software and many such things.
Feel free to write me to discuss your interests....my machines could be
possibly be available.
FYI - I worked at Digital for 20 years (badge 42305) - in the groups that
designed the PDP8E and LSI-11.
I also was #945 at Data General - started by Edson DeCastro who designed
some of the earlier PDP'8's at Digital before starting Data General.
At Digital - John Clark was the manager of the PDP group and John Kirk -
was one of the superstar designers.
At Data General - I was in the team of 3 that designed the Eclipse - the
follow on machine to Ron Gruner's Nova 1200 at Data General. Larry
Seligman had designed the Nova 800.
Naturally I have all of the schematics, manuals, books etc and am very
skilled at fixing PDP8 machines. All this was done in the old Mill
building in Maynard Mass in ML1-2 (building 1 floor 2).
The PDP 8 may be one of the last machines that was truely easy for one
person to understand completely - to the last bit.
It is easy to design IO boards for it. The evolution to Data Generals
Nova was just an incremental step - but familiarity with the logic design
would show you what an elegant evolution it was - with everything on one
card instead of the PDP8E big chassis and 3 board CPU.
At Digital - I was a logic designer in for the LSI-11, for the PDP
terminals, for the VT100 video terminal and was a software engineer on the
X Windowing terminals.
Tell me about your desire to acquire PDP8E's.
I am also williambericson@yahoo.com
William B. Ericson
(Embedded image moved to file: pic29174.pcx)
Tivoli Certification Tel.: 512-436-1274
Office 17005 Plaza One 7th Floor Pager:
888-758-4969
Tivoli Systems Inc. Pager Email: 7584969@skytel.com
9442 Capital of Texas Hwy N
Austin, TX 78759
--0__=86256993005E3DAC8f9e8a93df938690918c86256993005E3DAC
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--0__=86256993005E3DAC8f9e8a93df938690918c86256993005E3DAC--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 17:27:23 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (John A. Murdie)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:27:23 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on notebooks
Message-ID:
Is the `Plan 9 from Bell Labs - supported PC hardware' page
(http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/pchardware.html) the whole
story, particularly on the subject of Plan 9 on notebooks? The
August 2000 FAQ (the latest I've seen) says nothing more. I'd
rather like Plan 9 on a notebook.
There are various companies over here (the UK) who sell second-hand
notebooks - Morgan Computers (www.morgancomputers.co.uk) is best known
to me, but e.g their second-hand IBM ThinkPads are - I think - all more
recent than those in the Plan 9 hardware list (365, 760, 760XL, 770
versus 560, 560E, 560X, 570 and 600E).
I'm aware of the general problem; notebook manufacturers rarely give
out details of their hardware.
John A. Murdie
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 17:36:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:36:29 0000
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on notebooks
Message-ID:
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--upas-gorauakeoklsgkjntwzbewpwjv
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When you say that manufacturers rarely give out details, that's only half true.
Most now tell you the graphics chip, since this is a matter for comparision.
They certainly are less forthcoming on such things as pcmcia controllers.
Of course, Linux and FreeBSD are booted on these devices, so there are
loads of web pages for how to get Xfree and *nix running on laptops which do tell
you the hardware in detail of each model.
--upas-gorauakeoklsgkjntwzbewpwjv
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Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on notebooks
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Is the `Plan 9 from Bell Labs - supported PC hardware' page
(http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/pchardware.html) the whole
story, particularly on the subject of Plan 9 on notebooks? The
August 2000 FAQ (the latest I've seen) says nothing more. I'd
rather like Plan 9 on a notebook.
There are various companies over here (the UK) who sell second-hand
notebooks - Morgan Computers (www.morgancomputers.co.uk) is best known
to me, but e.g their second-hand IBM ThinkPads are - I think - all more
recent than those in the Plan 9 hardware list (365, 760, 760XL, 770
versus 560, 560E, 560X, 570 and 600E).
I'm aware of the general problem; notebook manufacturers rarely give
out details of their hardware.
John A. Murdie
--upas-gorauakeoklsgkjntwzbewpwjv--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 10 17:41:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (John A. Murdie)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:41:11 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 on notebooks
Message-ID:
I guess I should have been more direct; I'm in the UK and I
would like to purchase a notebook, probably second-hand, in
order to run Plan 9. Ideally, I'd like to spend up to #500.
Recommendations, please.
John A. Murdie
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 09:23:02 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:23:02 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
In-Reply-To: ; from miller@hamnavoe.demon.co.uk on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:01:12PM +0000
References:
Message-ID: <20001111102302.A206@localhost.local>
Richard,
1. How do I install the update you provided? Here is what I get:
% wrap/inst ppp.bod
archfs: reading archive: bad format
wrap/inst: no such package found
2. Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
Should I put my login name and password directly in the
command line here or somewhere else?
I am using Plan9 as a standalone machine and have not configured
any network related items. Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
to connect to the internet and get email working. If you would
like to extend your reply to include those issues it would be
appreciated.
Bill
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:01:12PM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> > I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> > connect to my ISP with PAP?
>
> Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
> PAP authentication. Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
> (password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
> servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.
>
> The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:
>
> % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 14:08:04 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:08:04 0000
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-iopwsrmdhltczwkqexozbhxggk
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.bods are "bundles of diffs", or a form of patch used in 2nd edition Plan 9. The file
should be an rc script. Just run it to get a small amount of help on the arguments
needed to run it in anger.
--upas-iopwsrmdhltczwkqexozbhxggk
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From: "William Staniewicz"
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001111102302.A206@localhost.local>
References:
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:23:02 +0100
Richard,
1. How do I install the update you provided? Here is what I get:
% wrap/inst ppp.bod
archfs: reading archive: bad format
wrap/inst: no such package found
2. Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
Should I put my login name and password directly in the
command line here or somewhere else?
I am using Plan9 as a standalone machine and have not configured
any network related items. Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
to connect to the internet and get email working. If you would
like to extend your reply to include those issues it would be
appreciated.
Bill
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 03:01:12PM +0000, Richard Miller wrote:
> > I know CHAP is supported, but is it possible to
> > connect to my ISP with PAP?
>
> Attached is an update to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp (14 Oct version) to support
> PAP authentication. Note that although PAP is less secure than CHAP
> (password is transmitted in cleartext), the specification says that
> servers which provide both must offer CHAP first.
>
> The command I use to connect to Demon UK is:
>
> % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0845-212-0666 -s $host:$pass
--upas-iopwsrmdhltczwkqexozbhxggk--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 14:51:04 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Ish Rattan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:51:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
Message-ID:
Is there a way to find (discover the path) of a file
in the source tree? For example, source for echo server
running on port 7 (if the name is echo.c??).
- ishwar
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 15:02:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 15:02:45 0000
Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
Message-ID:
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--upas-drlrxydlbykpbtrifzzgxyudru
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One might normally use the src(1) command,
however,
src echo
finds the source to the echo(1) command.
cat /rc/bin/service/tcp7
shows the real command for tcp echo. It its cat(1).
--upas-drlrxydlbykpbtrifzzgxyudru
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Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
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Is there a way to find (discover the path) of a file
in the source tree? For example, source for echo server
running on port 7 (if the name is echo.c??).
- ishwar
--upas-drlrxydlbykpbtrifzzgxyudru--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 17:00:50 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:00:50 0000
Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
Message-ID: <20001111160512.A1C6A199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-sbytrbhilvmiznmwjecumtzyfm
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for compiled executables, try src(1).
in this particular case, however, the services are implemented by shell scripts.
see listen(8) for details, but they are found in /rc/bin/service and /rc/bin/service.auth,
in files named using an obvious naming scheme (eg, /rc/bin/service/tcp7).
term% cat /bin/service/tcp7
#!/bin/rc
/bin/cat
so much for that one. others such as tcp25 invoke specialised commands
with appropriate argument shuffling:
term% cat /bin/service/tcp25
#!/bin/rc
#smtp serv net incalldir user
user=`{cat /dev/user}
exec upas/smtpd -n $3
and then you can do
src /bin/upas/smtpd
to pop the source of the command into an acme frame, or use
src -n just to print the name:
term% src -n /bin/upas/smtpd
/sys/src/cmd/upas/smtp/smtpd.c:71
--upas-sbytrbhilvmiznmwjecumtzyfm
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From: Ish Rattan
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
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Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:51:04 -0500 (EST)
Is there a way to find (discover the path) of a file
in the source tree? For example, source for echo server
running on port 7 (if the name is echo.c??).
- ishwar
--upas-sbytrbhilvmiznmwjecumtzyfm--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 17:06:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:06:13 0000
Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
Message-ID: <20001111161035.BF375199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i ought to have added that although i used absolute names to
make it clearer which file src was examining, i could have said
src upas/smtpd
or
src smtpd
and let it hunt for it in /bin and /bin/* itself.
it actually works for scripts as well, thus
src tcp7
src tcp25
would track down the services (but you'd have had to know the naming scheme).
try
src src
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 16:16:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Ish Rattan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:16:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID:
I have asked this question before in a different form. I have
tried and am stuck any help will be appreciated.
I want to write a server, call it myserver (works like echo except
prepends a sequence number to the message echoed back). I have code
written based on the example given in net.html/ps document. Now the
question how do I start it? I have seen entries for echo-server
running on port 7:
1. /lib/ndb/common (tcp=echo port=7 etc.)
2. /rc/bin/service/tcp7
3. /net/ndb/tcp/7/*
This is ok for system started server. Does one have to go the same route
or one can run a user-level server process whan no write permission is
available on the above parts of namespace?
Further, if I want to run myecho on port 1111 so that a client can talk
to it -- what are the lists of steps to perform? I want to undestand
the process of running a server process??
Thanks in advance.
- ishwar
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 17:20:09 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:20:09 PST
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001111173944.345C0199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
washoe is a stand-alone terminal running 2nd edition:
washoe % netstat
tcp 0 ed Established 600 login pyramid.cs.unr.edu
udp 0 ed Dgram 0 0 0.0.0.0
il 0 ed Established 5001 exportfs manzanita.cs.unr.edu
il 1 ed Closed 0 0 0.0.0.0
washoe % ipecho
Usage: ipecho [t|i|u] host #t=tcp, i=il, u=udp
host can be IP address or domain name
washoe % ipecho i washoe
il!washoe!echo did not return echo
washoe % ipecho t washoe
dial failed: connect 134.197.42.61!7 failed: connection refused
washoe % ipecho u washoe
udp!washoe!echo did not return echo
washoe % echo.udp.srv&
washoe % echo.tcp.srv&
washoe % echo.il.srv&
washoe %
adir = /net/il/1
netstat
tcp 0 ed Established 600 login pyramid.cs.unr.edu
tcp 1 ed Listen echo 0 0.0.0.0
udp 0 ed Dgram echo 0 0.0.0.0
il 0 ed Established 5001 exportfs manzanita.cs.unr.edu
il 1 ed Listening echo 0 0.0.0.0
washoe % ipecho u washoe
udp!washoe!echo echoed:
Life is too short to drink bad wine.
washoe % ipecho i washoe
il!washoe!echo echoed:
Life is too short to drink bad wine.
washoe % ipecho t washoe
tcp!washoe!echo echoed:
Life is too short to drink bad wine.
washoe %
-------------------------------------
The echo C code is based on the example in man page for dial.
ed
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 17:55:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:55:03 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001111175508.32505199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i suggest you check out listen(8); in particular, the -d and -t
options should help you out. you can create a directory of your
own and just specify that in the -d or -t arguements.
assuming i've created /usr/foo/bin/rc/my.services and myecho is
an executable file (script or binary) that does what you want, i
think the steps you're looking for are these:
1) create /bin/my.services/tcp1111 - this should be either an
executable shell script like tcp7, substituting myecho for
cat, or you could just 'cp myecho tcp7'.
2) start listen - 'aux/listen -d /bin/my.services'
that's it, if i understand your question correctly. i'd point
out that each of these servers are, technically, a "user-level
server process". if, for some reason, you really don't want to
use listen, you don't have to. i'd urge you to reconsider, but
look at /bin/ip/*d for examples.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 11 16:10:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:10:26 +0100
Subject: [9fans] find/locate a file
References: <20001111160512.A1C6A199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <006a01c04c40$b032a1a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> for compiled executables, try src(1).
what?!? there isn't a perl script for it?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 00:52:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 01:52:21 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001111175508.32505199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <008e01c04c42$d067f400$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
----- Original Message -----
From:
could you please stop posting in that hideous font?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 00:54:49 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:54:49 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001112005452.85E47199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
what hideous font? surely you're not
objecting to the use of UTF-8 on the
plan 9 mailing list.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 01:04:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:04:13 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001112005452.85E47199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00ac01c04c44$790483c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
being a dinosaur (sp?) i like ascii text.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 01:33:19 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 20:33:19 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Update
Message-ID: <20001112013322.C4F03199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I have posted a new update to the Plan 9 web site
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9
Grab it by the usual procedure.
The new file is called 10141111.9gz and includes fixes to heinous bugs in
acme, rio, and astro. OK, the astro one may not be as critical but I felt foolish
standing in the waiting for an occultation that didn't happen.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 09:34:25 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:34:25 0000
Subject: [9fans] Update
Message-ID:
Are you sure the md5sum prefix quoted on the website for the
11 Nov update is correct?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 13:36:16 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:36:16 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Update
References:
Message-ID: <005001c04cad$88845140$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Richard Miller
> Are you sure the md5sum prefix quoted on the website for the
> 11 Nov update is correct?
it's _still_ a prefix!?! i believe i suggested to put the
whole checksum on the page -- that's what it's for.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 14:21:17 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:21:17 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Update
Message-ID: <20001112142135.4D9E0199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-jgwhtzjikeqdovryjdthbrkdfa
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It was incorrect. Weird.
-rob
--upas-jgwhtzjikeqdovryjdthbrkdfa
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
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Are you sure the md5sum prefix quoted on the website for the
11 Nov update is correct?
--upas-jgwhtzjikeqdovryjdthbrkdfa--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:14:58 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:14:58 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001112173103.527DD199EE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
unicode's fun. try it. you'll like it.
if nothing else, i find watching who complains, or
just asks questions, an interesting experiment in
what different clients can handle, and what people
are using. much to my suprise, i'm told MS Outlook
gets this one right.
i might point out Acme mail and *edmail do, too.
-Îą. (or -a. for the unicode impaired)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:35:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:35:54 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001112173103.527DD199EE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <009601c04ccf$02d79d00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> unicode's fun. try it. you'll like it.
unicode's broken. but 16 bit chars are a good idea. they went too far.
> if nothing else, i find watching who complains, or
> just asks questions, an interesting experiment in
> what different clients can handle, and what people
> are using. much to my suprise, i'm told MS Outlook
> gets this one right.
it does, that's why i complained.
> i might point out Acme mail and *edmail do, too.
> -Îą. (or -a. for the unicode impaired)
yeah i see the 'alpha'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:36:23 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:36:23 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001112173103.527DD199EE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <009c01c04ccf$17772780$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
just up the point size, ok?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:39:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:39:45 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001112173948.08E8B199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//unicode's broken. but 16 bit chars are a good idea. they went too far.
okay, i'll bite: explain, please.
//yeah i see the 'alpha'.
than what's the problem?
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:44:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:44:21 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001112173948.08E8B199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a601c04cd0$309edcc0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
> file://unicode's broken. but 16 bit chars are a good idea. they went too
far.
> okay, i'll bite: explain, please.
they were not happy with sticking with defining a character set.
they added 'formatting' information and other garbage.
having said that, ascii is guilty of it too (control info).
but it does say 'information interchange'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:44:47 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:44:47 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
Message-ID: <20001112174450.34B8E199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//just up the point size, ok?
alright, now i'm really confused. uh, what? i'm
not sending any font information, including any
point size. unless i'm really missing something,
the font size has got to be changed on your end.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 17:56:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:56:59 +0100
Subject: [9fans] Running a server/service??
References: <20001112174450.34B8E199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00c901c04cd1$f4a36a40$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
> alright, now i'm really confused. uh, what? i'm
> not sending any font information, including any
> point size. unless i'm really missing something,
> the font size has got to be changed on your end.
true. my mistake. what you are sending is:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
and thanks to ol' microsoft here i get some random font that if i spent
three weeks looking for the params _maybe_ i could change it or break
the registry db in the process...
those dudes who did mime shoulda been shot.
as brucee was saying the other day:
[people] don't get "simplicity".
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 19:29:58 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:29:58 0000
Subject: 8bit in email (was Re: [9fans] Running a server/service??)
Message-ID: <20001112182808.2BC95199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> > i might point out Acme mail and *edmail do, too.
> > -. (or -a. for the unicode impaired)
>
> yeah i see the 'alpha'.
i don't, despite the fact that i'm running plan 9 on mail that's been
retrieved by plan 9. i imagine there are still mail servers out there
that don't understand "Content-Transfer-Encoding" and knock off all the
8th bits regardless. quoted-printable would probably survive better.
cheers,
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 12 18:42:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:42:12 +0100
Subject: 8bit in email (was Re: [9fans] Running a server/service??)
References: <20001112182808.2BC95199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00d501c04cd8$45ff9ac0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> > yeah i see the 'alpha'.
>
> i don't, despite the fact that i'm running plan 9 on mail that's been
> retrieved by plan 9.
i read the whole 150 (or so) pages of the 4 mime docs.
i think it would be near impossible to get right. damn thing
is recursive and has a bunch of state and you just wanna
call in the airstrike on your own position.
why i know this is a hideous story -- corporate spying;
they wanted to know who was mailing what to whom and i
wrote a shell script, yes no perl, no programs, ordinary
garden variety 7th ed shell script with some awk.
i even asked one of the guilty what some stupid field was
for -- he couldn't remember.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 09:27:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:27:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] connection timeout with file server
Message-ID: <200011130927.eAD9RCu15788@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
I am trying to install a fresh main file system on a file server, from an
standalone terminal.
term% mount /srv/kfs tmp/root
term% srv -bc il!193.54.153.106 bootes tmp/bootes
term% disk/mkfs -u /adm/users -v -d tmp/bootes -s tmp/root /sys/lib/sysconfig/proto/allproto
files are listed as they are copied until:
mkfs: /sys/lib/sysconfig/proto/allproto:1: can't write tmp/bootes/386/9pcdisk: connection timed out
exit ''
getting rid if /386/9pcdisk is not enough. The same error occurs for
/386/upas/bin/edmail.
The terminal is a PentiumIII/Xeon on an ASUS CUV4XM motherboard, with
an IDE disk and a 3c905 ethernet card. The file server is an old
Pentium100 on an unidentified mother board, 3C905 ethernet, Tekram
SCSI card. The fs kernel is built from /sys/src/fs/clone, using the
files of ../plan9pc instead of ../emelie. (BTW, the same SCSI card
and disk on another PentiumIII with a configuration equivalent to the
one of the terminal hangs in or after the ream of w6 : there is no
echo of the terminal, the floppy motor stays rotating).
Any idea ?
--
Jean Mehat, universite de Paris 8 Vincennes a Saint Denis,
jm@ai.univ-paris8.fr, (33) 1 4940 6403, (33) 1 4940 6783 (fax)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 09:45:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:45:30 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Sun Sparcstation 20
Message-ID:
I have a Sun Sparcstation 20 system, currently running Debian Linux. IOs it
possible for me to get Plan 9 for it? If so where can I get a copy or a net
install.
Sun Sparcstation has:
256 Mb ram
2 1gig harddrives,
100baseT ethernet port
55Mhz processor
Thank you
James
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 10:29:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:29:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] connection timeout with file server
Message-ID: <200011131029.eADATrq16034@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
> I think you should use mkext for that purpose.
I think mkfs -d is equivalent to mkfs | mkext.
The timeout problem comes not from the mkfs command ; it is a write()
that fails.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 12:21:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:21:57 0000
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID:
> 2. Your command to connect to Demon UK includes '$host:$pass' ,
> Should I put my login name and password directly in the
> command line here or somewhere else?
You can type them directly in the command line, or set them as
shell (rc) variables if you are calling ip/ppp in a script.
> Once I get the PAP solved, I hope
> to connect to the internet and get email working.
I don't know of a simple step-by-step guide for this; you will want
to look at ndb(6), listen(8), mail(1) and smtpd(6).
-- Richard
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 14:53:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:53:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] connection timeout with file server
Message-ID: <200011131453.eADErve16977@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
> and try to do
> mount /srv/bootes tmp/bootes
> ls -l tmp/bootes
> does that work?
Yes, it does.
The timeout announced on the terminal side comes quickly.
A timeout is announced on the file server after the 30 sec.
> I have a report that the 3C905C gives problems but have been unable
> to reproduce them myself. Is that what you are using?
Yes, it is. I have some remembrance of problems of this kind
occurring on 3c509 (dramatic performance degradation when
transmitting a lot of packets) but thought that it was solved
long ago.
I will redo the same thing with a slow gateway between the
terminal and file server and let you know what happens.
jm
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 15:25:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:25:30 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] connection timeout with file server
Message-ID: <200011131525.eADFPUb17127@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
> Sorry.
> > and try to do
> > mount /srv/bootes tmp/bootes
> > ls -l tmp/bootes
> > does that work?
>
> Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't !
Actually, what works is opening another connection, with
a fresh session...post.
Anyway, the timeout on the fileserver comes around 30 seconds
after the timeout on the terminal.
A slow firewall between the terminal and the file server
doesn't change anything.
jm
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 15:35:55 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:35:55 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001113163555.A265@localhost.local>
Here is what I have done:
1. Copied ppp.bod to /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp
2. % disk/kfscmd allow
3. % chmod 777 ppp.bod
4. % ppp.bod
(Here, some info was provided telling me to use
-X to extract.)
5. % ppp.bod -X
973778772/ppp.c: /sys/src/cmd/ip/ppp/ppp.c is not
the original distribution file
(A directory was created but not sure if this comment
is telling me the patch was applied successfully.)
6. Into /rc/bin/termrc I put:
host=myloginname
pass=myISPpassword
7. I added the IP numbers of my ISPs Domain Name Servers
so that my /lib/ndb/local looks like:
database=
file=/lib/ndb/local
file=/lib/ndb/common
dns=195.121.1.34
8. My ISPs server uses DYNAMIC IP numbers.
9. % telco /dev/eia1
(Is there a way to set this up at boot time?)
(There is maybe a 5 sec. pause at this time then
the prompt is displayed.)
10. % ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p telco!0,5303333 -s $host:$pass
(Modem dials out, about a min later I hear it disconnect
and the following is displayed.)
*s*: *s*: *r*
telco 181: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0x24448900
pc=0x24448900
(The process stops here...)
I think I am close to a solution on this. I appreciate the
help I have been given to get to this point. Can anyone
suggest what to do next?
Bill
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 15:49:28 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:49:28 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001113154940.DEE46199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Try it without telco at all. Just dial the number through ppp. We
can cross the telco bridge when we've got real connections.
To dial through ppp:
ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p /dev/eia1 -s $host:$pass
and when it prompts you type
atdt0,5303333^M
where '^M' is the ctrl key plus the m key. The
'at' interface needs real carriage returns.
After it's connected, just type
^D
If that works, we can go on to debugging telco
or, better yet, ignore it completely.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 16:30:52 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wladimir Mutel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:30:52 GMT
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <8uoutp$als$1@pandora.alkar.net>
IBM recently opened their AFS (distributed file system with local
caching) -
http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/afs/
Could there be any reason or use to make Plan9 AFS-client (like
afssrv, to connect to afs-servers and map 9p to afs) ?
Could Plan9 fs(8) get some afs features ? Local caching would be
great, I think.
--
mwg@alkar.net, 399916, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - =F7=CC=C1=C4=C9=CD=C9=D2=
=ED=D5=D4=C5=CC=D8
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 16:39:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:39:21 -0500
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <20001113163933.9B67E199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-rueymmyjnzebcyoayiuevwxeji
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Are you volunteering? I don't know of anyone else writing
an AFS<->9P converter.
--upas-rueymmyjnzebcyoayiuevwxeji
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
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Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:30:52 GMT
IBM recently opened their AFS (distributed file system with local
caching) -
http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/afs/
Could there be any reason or use to make Plan9 AFS-client (like
afssrv, to connect to afs-servers and map 9p to afs) ?
Could Plan9 fs(8) get some afs features ? Local caching would be
great, I think.
--
mwg@alkar.net, 399916, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - =F7=CC=C1=C4=C9=CD=C9=D2=
=ED=D5=D4=C5=CC=D8
--upas-rueymmyjnzebcyoayiuevwxeji--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 17:03:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wladimir Mutel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 19:03:35 +0200 (EET)
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: <200011131639.eADGdhI37677@smtp3.alkar.net>
Message-ID:
> Are you volunteering? I don't know of anyone else writing
> an AFS<->9P converter.
Oh sorry, I do not feel excessive inspiration and (the worst) spare
time. I often think I am only able to drop in an idea ...
--
mwg@alkar.net, 399916, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 - ÷ĚÁÄÉÍÉŇ íŐÔĹĚŘ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 17:22:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:22:56 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
In-Reply-To: <20001113154940.DEE46199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 10:49:28AM -0500
References: <20001113154940.DEE46199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001113182256.A250@localhost.local>
On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 10:49:28AM -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> Try it without telco at all. Just dial the number through ppp. We
> can cross the telco bridge when we've got real connections.
>
I did this ...
> To dial through ppp:
>
> ip/ppp -fP -m 1500 -p /dev/eia1 -s $host:$pass
>
I then got a term% prompt ... followed the next step ...
> and when it prompts you type
>
> atdt0,5303333^M
>
> where '^M' is the ctrl key plus the m key. The
> 'at' interface needs real carriage returns.
>
I waited for about a minute: Nothing happened. I never got
beyond this to the next step.
> After it's connected, just type
> ^D
>
> If that works, we can go on to debugging telco
> or, better yet, ignore it completely.
Bill
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 19:37:52 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:37:52 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001113203752.B231@localhost.local>
--82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs
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--82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:33:13 +0100
From: William Staniewicz
To: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com
Subject: Re: your mail
Message-ID: <20001113203313.A231@localhost.local>
References: <773746D514C0.AAA1647@po01.wxs.nl>
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In-Reply-To: <773746D514C0.AAA1647@po01.wxs.nl>; from presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:53:08PM -0500
On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:53:08PM -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
....
> It looks like you just aren't talking to the modem. If you can come
> up standalone, try just this:
>
> con -l /dev/eia1
>
> and then see if you can get a response from it. It should respond
> to just at^M
>
Here are my results as I follow your advise posted above:
term% con -l /dev/eia1
at^M
OK
Furthermore, if I type in the command...
atdt0,5303333^M
... it dials the number. (I can here the dialing on the speaker.)
> What kind of modem is this?
According to the packing slip, it is a:
US Robotics x2 (56K) Data/Fax Modem for Win95
Currently, it works OK with my FreeBSD OS and Win95.
Bill
--82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 19:57:17 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:57:17 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on the Ipaq
Message-ID: <20001113195723.19E17199EA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I'm announcing this before the source is available since
we're getting so many questions about it.
Sape Mullender and I are porting Plan 9 to the Ipaq H3600.
At the moment we've got a working kernel, screen support, a port of
Xscribble, and a read only compressed flash file system. We're
working on getting the audio working, putting a r/w file system in
the flash and, now that we finally got a couple of sleave's, PCMCIA
support. Once that's all there, we'll add it to the distribution
for others to play with since. I'ld do it sooner but the rate of
change is still too high and I want the basic structures solid before
more people jump in.
Mail me if you have questions.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 20:19:02 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:19:02 -0500
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <20001113201911.6003E199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//Local caching would be great, I think.
okay, let me say off the bat i have no idea how
AFS handles caching, so this comparison may be
totally inapropriate. but for fs caching in
Plan 9 (without 9pâAFS), take a look at cfs(4)
and the -C option to mount in bind(1).
if your goal is talking to AIX or other Unix
boxes, take a look at u9fs(4).
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 20:23:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Fariborz 'Skip' Tavakkolian)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:23:29 -0800
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on the Ipaq
In-Reply-To: <20001113195723.19E17199EA@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001113122329.00babad0@mail.real.com>
Obviously this is fun while we're waiting for the election results,
but wouldn't an Inferno port be more useful for iPAQ type devices?
At 02:57 PM 11/13/00 -0500, presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
>I'm announcing this before the source is available since
>we're getting so many questions about it.
>
>Sape Mullender and I are porting Plan 9 to the Ipaq H3600.
>At the moment we've got a working kernel, screen support, a port of
>Xscribble, and a read only compressed flash file system. We're
>working on getting the audio working, putting a r/w file system in
>the flash and, now that we finally got a couple of sleave's, PCMCIA
>support. Once that's all there, we'll add it to the distribution
>for others to play with since. I'ld do it sooner but the rate of
>change is still too high and I want the basic structures solid before
>more people jump in.
>
>Mail me if you have questions.
>
>
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 20:22:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:22:36 -0500
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <20001113202247.BAF61199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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Andrew can cache whole files locally and send back journaled updates.
It's a lot more than cfs. This is not a trivial project. Might be
interesting though.
--upas-bmqezhbwashuqhurxbfxzbiazr
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From: anothy@cosym.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:19:02 -0500
//Local caching would be great, I think.
okay, let me say off the bat i have no idea how
AFS handles caching, so this comparison may be
totally inapropriate. but for fs caching in
Plan 9 (without 9pâAFS), take a look at cfs(4)
and the -C option to mount in bind(1).
if your goal is talking to AIX or other Unix
boxes, take a look at u9fs(4).
-Îą.
--upas-bmqezhbwashuqhurxbfxzbiazr--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 20:32:14 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:32:14 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on the Ipaq
Message-ID: <20001113203215.D20C0199F2@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Inferno is not the system I use so I'm less interested. However, there is
someone in taiwan that wants to do the Inferno port. Since the kernels
are somewhat similar, the second should be easier than the first.
However, the hard part of the port is going to be the user interface.
The kernel hacking is trivial. I believe that neither plan 9 nor
Inferno have a significant step up there. Rob's agreed to hack rio
for us to incorporate a binding between input and application that
we think will be helpful. Our first attempt will probably be an
despicable failure, but that's the fun part. I'll leave it up to all
of you to do a better job either with Inferno or Plan 9.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 13 22:54:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:54:11 0000
Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 on the Ipaq
Message-ID: <20001113225116.025E9199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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we got several iPAQs ages ago to do the Inferno port, which would
normally be slightly quicker than plan 9, but by the time one other bit we
needed arrived i was involved in something else. i should get back to it
this week. i wanted to redo some of the code anyhow.
--upas-wdlppkklwiqtpwtjfvsgbwkjxw
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Cc: fst@real.com
Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 on the Ipaq
From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:32:14 -0500
Inferno is not the system I use so I'm less interested. However, there is
someone in taiwan that wants to do the Inferno port. Since the kernels
are somewhat similar, the second should be easier than the first.
However, the hard part of the port is going to be the user interface.
The kernel hacking is trivial. I believe that neither plan 9 nor
Inferno have a significant step up there. Rob's agreed to hack rio
for us to incorporate a binding between input and application that
we think will be helpful. Our first attempt will probably be an
despicable failure, but that's the fun part. I'll leave it up to all
of you to do a better job either with Inferno or Plan 9.
--upas-wdlppkklwiqtpwtjfvsgbwkjxw--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 09:33:52 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:33:52 GMT
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <3A0AE9EA.96265BA2@arl.army.mil>
Message-ID: <974159711.415708@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
"Douglas A. Gwyn" writes:
>forsyth@vitanuova.com wrote:
>> if you are intent for whatever reason on capturing, recovering, and
>> especially modifying typed input on the fly (as with command
>> completion but other things as well), i'd plug something (cf. pipefile)
>> between typist and the recipient of the typing.
>Indeed, one measure of how good an operating system really is
>is how transparent and efficient a program like BSD "script" is.
I use screen locally, because somebody else installs and supports it.
I have to say, it gets in the way terribly. Maybe its not possible to
intrude multiple virtual terminals on one binding without confusing
either the operating system, the user or both. But persistance and
the ability to cut-paste on a non-mouse system and migrate the UI to
different remote bindings are useful enough I can wear the bogons.
Is screen something one would say deserves to be a generic plugable or
is it too many functions collapsed into one layer and should be discrete
pluggables, each for a specific task?
input-snarfer | virtual-terminal-switcher | persistance | rc ?
-George
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 09:51:44 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:51:44 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <3A0AE9EA.96265BA2@arl.army.mil> <974159711.415708@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
Message-ID: <00b201c04e20$7f4c4a00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: George Michaelson
To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [9fans] History
> "Douglas A. Gwyn" writes:
>
> >forsyth@vitanuova.com wrote:
> >> if you are intent for whatever reason on capturing, recovering, and
> >> especially modifying typed input on the fly (as with command
> >> completion but other things as well), i'd plug something (cf. pipefile)
> >> between typist and the recipient of the typing.
>
> >Indeed, one measure of how good an operating system really is
> >is how transparent and efficient a program like BSD "script" is.
>
> I use screen locally, because somebody else installs and supports it.
>
i was gonna stay outa this, but script uses those god-awful ptys,
if i haven't lost all my neurons.
i think the point is that you gotta break with the past. even those
'orrible pty's are 20 years old.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 09:58:14 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wladimir Mutel)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:58:14 GMT
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: <20001113201911.6003E199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <8ur18f$11jj$2@pandora.alkar.net>
anothy@cosym.net wrote:
> //Local caching would be great, I think.
> okay, let me say off the bat i have no idea how
> AFS handles caching, so this comparison may be
> totally inapropriate. but for fs caching in
> Plan 9 (without 9pAFS), take a look at cfs(4)
> and the -C option to mount in bind(1).
> if your goal is talking to AIX or other Unix
> boxes, take a look at u9fs(4).
Here is a quote from their doc
http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/afs/docs/html/AdminGd/auagd007.htm :
AFS Implements Save on Close
When an application issues the UNIX close system call on a file, the Cache
Manager performs a synchronous write of the data to
the File Server that maintains the central copy of the file. It does not
return control to the application until the File
Server has acknowledged receipt of the data. For the fsync system call,
control does not return to the application until the
File Server indicates that it has written the data to non-volatile storage
on the file server machine.
When an application issues the UNIX write system call, the Cache Manager
writes modifications to the local AFS client cache
only. If the local machine crashes or an application program exits without
issuing the close system call, it is possible that
the modifications are not recorded in the central copy of the file
maintained by the File Server. The Cache Manager does
sometimes write this type of modified data from the cache to the File
Server without receiving the close or fsync system call,
for example if it needs to free cache chunks for new data. However, it is
not generally possible to predict when the Cache
Manager transfers modified data to the File Server in this way.
The implication is that if an application's Save option invokes the write
system call rather than close or fsync, the changes
are not necessarily stored permanently on the File Server machine. Most
application programs issue the close system call for
save operations, as well as when they finish handling a file and when they
exit.
--
mwg@alkar.net, 399916, 340044, 7442333, 7786458 -
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 10:53:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Michael Jeffrey)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:53:38 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Academic/Student discount for manuals
Message-ID: <974198625.19768.0.nnrp-09.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
There is increasing interest in both Plan 9 and Inferno within Academic
institutions. A number of academics are currently running courses that
use both Plan 9 and Inferno in the course material, others are planning
to begin courses in the New Year.
As part of our on going support for students we are making available
manual sets at the reduced cost of 25 (approx. $40) each. If you are
interested please contact baldwin@vitanuova.com in the USA and
karen@vitanuova.com in the UK. You will need to provide some
proof of the academic institution you are a member of.
Michael Jeffrey
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 14:28:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:28:11 -0500
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001114142825.C7790199EE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Ptys were old and obsolete the day they were invented. We knew even
then that tty modes shouldn't be muxed by the kernel. I ranted some
when that happened, because I could see xterm on the horizon (although
- whoooo-ey, did I underestimate that horror!)..
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 15:12:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:12:12 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001114142825.C7790199EE@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <001f01c04e4d$43f127a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: rob pike
> ...because I could see xterm on the horizon (although
> - whoooo-ey, did I underestimate that horror!)..
sure, the code was huge, but at least they had the
good taste not to add in 3270 support and it only
took 6 versions to get multi line selections right,
'cos the code was unreadable or something.
call me old fashioned, or sarcastic, or ...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 15:20:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:20:26 +0100
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: <20001113163933.9B67E199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <005e01c04e4e$6a5bf180$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
----- Original Message -----
From:
> Are you volunteering? I don't know of anyone else writing
> an AFS<->9P converter.
oooh, protocol conversion. danger, will robinson.
although, 9P is sane. whereas, NFS is not.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 15:50:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:50:01 GMT
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <00b201c04e20$7f4c4a00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <3A115528.96770962@arl.army.mil>
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> i was gonna stay outa this, but script uses those god-awful ptys,
That's beside the point. I didn't say "port script", I said
one measure of how good an operating system really is is how
transparent and efficient a program *like* BSD "script" is.
It ought to be possible to interpose a program "at" the user
interface that captures all user output (which might be
graphic, although for many purposes we could settle for the
text that is understood by the terminal-like text windows)
in some reviewable/replayable database (simple sequential
text log, if not supporting graphics). Ideally, user input
should be captured also (if supporting just text, then the
displayed echo of the input might suffice).
One design issue for a script-like program is how to process
user-generated signals.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 17:21:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:21:13 0000
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001114161942.D7EFE199ED@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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it's possible to make a variant of "script" for plan 9 without using
any special purpose programs at all:
% > conslog
% chmod +a conslog
% pipefile -r 'tee conslog' -w 'tee conslog' /dev/cons
% rc < /dev/cons > /dev/cons >[2] /dev/cons
only slight problem seems to be that it doesn't exit when you type EOF.
a small price to pay.
rog.
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Boyd Roberts wrote:
> i was gonna stay outa this, but script uses those god-awful ptys,
That's beside the point. I didn't say "port script", I said
one measure of how good an operating system really is is how
transparent and efficient a program *like* BSD "script" is.
It ought to be possible to interpose a program "at" the user
interface that captures all user output (which might be
graphic, although for many purposes we could settle for the
text that is understood by the terminal-like text windows)
in some reviewable/replayable database (simple sequential
text log, if not supporting graphics). Ideally, user input
should be captured also (if supporting just text, then the
displayed echo of the input might suffice).
One design issue for a script-like program is how to process
user-generated signals.
--upas-tbbcykcbcyiikyqqupmmgigjpg--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 16:13:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:13:33 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001109163657.A5BC2199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <00b201c04e20$7f4c4a00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <3A115528.96770962@arl.army.mil>
Message-ID: <00ac01c04e55$d63729e0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Douglas A. Gwyn
> Boyd Roberts wrote:
> > i was gonna stay outa this, but script uses those god-awful ptys,
>
> That's beside the point. I didn't say "port script", ...
yes doug, i understood that. some of us convict scum have
the odd synapse floating around :-)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 18:50:31 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (William Staniewicz)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:50:31 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114195031.A395@localhost.local>
With the help of:
nigel@9fs.org presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com miller@hamnavoe.demon.co.uk
I believe I have managed to be able to log on to my ISP.
This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
then,
atdt0,5303333^M
When I test the "log on" status with,
term% ip/ping 195.121.1.34 there seems to be a connection.
What I have not done yet is provide for my
ISPs Domain Name Servers dns=195.121.1.34 and
My ISPs server uses DYNAMIC IP numbers.
I suspect I will need to put that information
the ipconfig command.
I hope I have documented this well enough so others can apply
it to their own situation. I know the archives have been useful to me
as well as the feedback from my postings.
Bill
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:12:27 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:12:27 -0500
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001114193110.AD5D3199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//i think the point is that you
//gotta break with the past.
this from the guy who wants me to
stick to ASCII text? âş (er, that's
":-)" for the unicode-impared)
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:19:02 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:19:02 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114193544.A4252199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
> ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
> then,
> atdt0,5303333^M
I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt^M", (and
sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
ISP. Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
automated?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:37:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:37:13 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001114193110.AD5D3199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <013a01c04e72$4a1062c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> file://i think the point is that you
> file://gotta break with the past.
>
> this from the guy who wants me to
> stick to ASCII text? âş (er, that's
> ":-)" for the unicode-impared)
> -Îą.
>
well said, sir.
but, i forget the RFC, but it says:
be conservative in what you send and liberal in what you accept
where do these file:// come from?
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:41:23 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:41:23 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114194125.25FD9199EF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-itobgmkmqbashgtamemcbgewzm
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I started writing a scripting language for it and got distracted by
looking at the Unix one, expect(?). I'll get back to it eventually or someone
else should do it. Then we could have standard scripts for different
ISP's and avoid a lot of typing.
--upas-itobgmkmqbashgtamemcbgewzm
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
From: David Gordon Hogan
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> This involved applying the PAP patch to PPP and using the script:
> ip/ppp -s $host:$pass -uf -p '#t/eia1' -b115200
> then,
> atdt0,5303333^M
I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt^M", (and
sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
ISP. Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
automated?
--upas-itobgmkmqbashgtamemcbgewzm--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:45:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:45:29 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001114193544.A4252199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <014401c04e73$716c4360$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: David Gordon Hogan
>
> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt^M
phone was for voice. modems suck the mop [thanks td].
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:51:49 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:51:49 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114195151.5AA83199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-xiijiumckygamqjcewddtiwywo
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Today it will be exactly 3 calendar months since I placed my
DSL order. I'm still waiting. Verizon are telling Covad that
there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
they won't say what it is.
--upas-xiijiumckygamqjcewddtiwywo
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From: "Boyd Roberts"
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From: David Gordon Hogan
>
> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt^M
phone was for voice. modems suck the mop [thanks td].
--upas-xiijiumckygamqjcewddtiwywo--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 21:50:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (andrey mirtchovski)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:50:33 -0800
Subject: [9fans] bootalphapc anyone?
Message-ID:
does anyone have a *working* bootalphapc? or 9apc[cpu]?
i'm trying to boot some old alphas here at school, but the kernels compiled
under i386 do not seem to produce anything usual (SRM console just reboots).
andrey
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 19:55:20 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:55:20 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114195531.A3C28199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
3 months! It's just starting, man. I've been waiting since March, when they took my deposit money.
Kick back, relax. It's the information age.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:01:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:01:05 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001114195151.5AA83199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <016801c04e75$9f264740$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: David Gordon Hogan
> Today it will be exactly 3 calendar months since I placed my
> DSL order. I'm still waiting. Verizon are telling Covad that
> there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> they won't say what it is.
oh solid hogan, you gotta get some perspective. my cable mob
in paris promised for TWO YEARS. i got my adsl 6 months ago.
one of the reason i opted for digital cable.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:02:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:02:03 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001114195531.A3C28199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <017001c04e75$c329a380$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: rob pike
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
> 3 months! It's just starting, man. I've been waiting since March, when they
took my deposit money.
> Kick back, relax. It's the information age.
>
rob, tell the story about the grief to get a T1.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:08:56 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:08:56 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
In-Reply-To: Message from David Gordon Hogan
of "Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:19:02 EST." <20001114193544.A4252199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001114200857.10888.qmail@f.bio.cse.psu.edu>
| Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
| automated?
telco fixes the phone dialing part in what I think is a really nice way.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:24:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:24:40 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114202452.12D3B199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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--upas-mtrgzhqcppbyvjwxaairzeploa
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It does. However, it doesn't do the reset of the handshake. There are
too many danged ways to attach to an ISP. I have to dial the number,
type a user name, an exncrypted time, and then the string ppp, each
to a prompt and with no type ahead allowed. My mom's ISP goes through
a similar but different dance. My girl friend's uses PAP without
a dance.
--upas-mtrgzhqcppbyvjwxaairzeploa
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| Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
| automated?
telco fixes the phone dialing part in what I think is a really nice way.
--upas-mtrgzhqcppbyvjwxaairzeploa--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:02:04 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:02:04 -0500
Subject: [9fans] bootalphapc anyone?
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Sorry for not responding to your mail sooner. My guess is that
you are running this on alpha cpus without the new byte load
and store instructions, and you need to disable their use in the
loader. Try giving it the "-x" flag (turns off use of BWX).
--upas-ebiakeswgxrionctvdjdnasryq
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does anyone have a *working* bootalphapc? or 9apc[cpu]?
i'm trying to boot some old alphas here at school, but the kernels compiled
under i386 do not seem to produce anything usual (SRM console just reboots).
andrey
--upas-ebiakeswgxrionctvdjdnasryq--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:18:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:18:11 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001114203438.4AAA4199F8@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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--upas-mhahvjmpncqfkgluktqprerkmk
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what, you mean about getting a new telephone pole installed on my property
to support the positive-pressure nitrogen-filled cable that delivered the twisted
pair? that story? no, no interest here.
-rob
--upas-mhahvjmpncqfkgluktqprerkmk
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:02:03 +0100
From: rob pike
Subject: Re: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
> 3 months! It's just starting, man. I've been waiting since March, when they
took my deposit money.
> Kick back, relax. It's the information age.
>
rob, tell the story about the grief to get a T1.
--upas-mhahvjmpncqfkgluktqprerkmk--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:43:44 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:43:44 +0100
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001114203438.4AAA4199F8@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <019501c04e7b$94ea4960$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: rob pike
> what, you mean about getting a new telephone pole installed on my property
> to support the positive-pressure nitrogen-filled cable that delivered the
twisted
> pair? that story? no, no interest here.
story i heard was tha at&t didn't wanna sell them 'cos
of some 'oh, yer gonna build a phone company'.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 20:45:58 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:45:58 0000
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID:
> it's possible to make a variant of "script" for plan 9 without using
> any special purpose programs at all:
Another variant is to use acme 'win' command for an interactive session,
then just 'Put' to save the log of input and output to a file.
-- Richard Miller
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 21:27:28 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:27:28 0000
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-gohyttsigivycnegjygrspmcdw
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dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com says:
> I'm personally getting quite sick of typing "atdt^M", (and
> sometimes getting it wrong) and then having to participate in
> further handshaking (and sometimes head-scratching) with my
> ISP. Has anyone given any thought as to how this should be
> automated?
The "atdt^M" part can be automated by using -p telco!ispname
if you trust telco (and if your /lib/ndb/local has a line like
sys=ispname telco=555-1234).
The further handshaking (if you need a login script for an isp
which doesn't support CHAP or PAP) can be automated by persuading
ip/ppp to call a command, in the manner of the -c option of con(1),
instead of reading user input. You can use rc as a scripting language -
below is my quickly thrown together script for logging into Compuserve
(where 'cread -t N C' is a variant of read(1) which copies from stdin
to stdout until either a character C is encountered or N seconds elapse).
I could post the source for cread, and the change to ppp to call command
scripts, but they're both pretty obvious.
-- Richard
--upas-gohyttsigivycnegjygrspmcdw
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#!/bin/rc
fn expect { x=`{cread -t $1 :}; echo got: $x >[1=2]; ~ $x *^$2^*}
fn send { echo sent: $1 >[1=2]; echo $1 | tr '\12' '\15' }
fn sendq { echo $1 | tr '\12' '\15' }
fn readuntil { @{ while (x=`{cread -t 60 '
'}) { echo got: $x >[1=2]; if (~ $x *^$1^*) exit () } } }
echo $0 running >[1=2]
send ''
while (! expect 10 ame:) {send ''}
send CIS
if (! expect 10 ID:) exit 'no ID prompt'
send $host/GO:PPPCONNECT
expect 60 GO:
if (! expect 10 ord:) exit 'no password prompt'
sendq $pass
readuntil 'One moment please'
--upas-gohyttsigivycnegjygrspmcdw--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 21:39:06 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:39:06 -0500
Subject: [9fans] History
Message-ID: <20001114213907.9B7AA199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-jwfbxtwhmobdzwpxpdykwxscmm
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How many programs do I have to stick in the kernel to call all make this
work before I have a file system?
--upas-jwfbxtwhmobdzwpxpdykwxscmm
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:45:58 0000
> it's possible to make a variant of "script" for plan 9 without using
> any special purpose programs at all:
Another variant is to use acme 'win' command for an interactive session,
then just 'Put' to save the log of input and output to a file.
-- Richard Miller
--upas-jwfbxtwhmobdzwpxpdykwxscmm--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 21:46:08 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:46:08 +0100
Subject: [9fans] History
References: <20001114213907.9B7AA199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <01ad01c04e84$505e97c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> How many programs do I have to stick in the kernel to call all make this
> work before I have a file system?
good question.
From cnielsen@pobox.com Tue Nov 14 22:32:31 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:32:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] FreeBSD IL and 9P patches
Message-ID:
I've been working on updating the IL and 9P patches for
FreeBSD so that they apply to the current head branch.
My intention is to get the code committed to the FreeBSD
source tree. If the original author doesn't have the time to
act as maintainer, I'm willing to do that.
Would anyone object to this?
--
Christopher Nielsen
cnielsen@pobox.com
From td@pixar.com Tue Nov 14 22:33:47 2000
From: td@pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:33:47 -0800
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: Wladimir Mutel
"Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?" (Nov 14, 9:58am)
References: <20001113201911.6003E199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
<8ur18f$11jj$2@pandora.alkar.net>
Message-ID: <10011141433.ZM1200345@marvin>
Wladimir Mutel wrote:
> If the local machine crashes or an application program exits without
> issuing the close system call, it is possible that
> the modifications are not recorded in the central copy of the file
> maintained by the File Server.
I'm confused. UNIX applications can't exit without issuing the
close system call. The exit system call internally calls out
to close for each open file. Unless some numskull changed it
since the last time I had my fingers in it. (They've had plenty
of opportunity -- I haven't touched a non-BSD UNIX kernel in many
years.)
--
Tom Duff. If all else fails, make it up.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 22:41:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alexander Viro)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:41:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: <10011141433.ZM1200345@marvin>
Message-ID:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> Wladimir Mutel wrote:
> > If the local machine crashes or an application program exits without
> > issuing the close system call, it is possible that
> > the modifications are not recorded in the central copy of the file
> > maintained by the File Server.
>
> I'm confused. UNIX applications can't exit without issuing the
> close system call. The exit system call internally calls out
> to close for each open file. Unless some numskull changed it
> since the last time I had my fingers in it. (They've had plenty
> of opportunity -- I haven't touched a non-BSD UNIX kernel in many
> years.)
Not bloody likely. _Many_ applications exit without calling close(), so
such system would die horribly under the leaks. OTOH... name a perversion
and somebody will find a place where it had been implemented.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 22:41:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:41:13 +0100
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: <20001113201911.6003E199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu> <8ur18f$11jj$2@pandora.alkar.net> <10011141433.ZM1200345@marvin>
Message-ID: <01d501c04e8c$030326a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Tom Duff
> Unless some numskull changed it since the last time
sadly you're probably right -- between the sheets.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 22:51:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:51:12 +0100
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References:
Message-ID: <01db01c04e8d$692a29a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Alexander Viro
> Not bloody likely. _Many_ applications exit without calling close
here we go. the kernel closes the fd's as a part of exit,
like td said.
duff knows what he's doing -- between the sheets.
you wanna outcode duff?
From td@pixar.com Tue Nov 14 23:00:34 2000
From: td@pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:00:34 -0800
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: Alexander Viro
"Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?" (Nov 14, 5:41pm)
References:
Message-ID: <10011141500.ZM1198342@marvin>
On Nov 14, 5:41pm, Alexander Viro wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> > UNIX applications can't exit without issuing the
> > close system call. The exit system call internally calls out
> > to close for each open file.
>
> Not bloody likely. _Many_ applications exit without calling close(), so
> such system would die horribly under the leaks.
No.
Read what I said.
The exit system call closes all open files.
You cannot exit without closing. (By `cannot'
I do not mean that you are enjoined from so
doing, but rather that it is not possible to
do so.)
You can, however, exit without fclosing, although
the stdio library tries to make that difficult.
--
Tom Duff. I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt.
From td@pixar.com Tue Nov 14 23:02:20 2000
From: td@pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:02:20 -0800
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: "Boyd Roberts"
"Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?" (Nov 14, 11:51pm)
References:
<01db01c04e8d$692a29a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <10011141502.ZM1199788@marvin>
On Nov 14, 11:51pm, Boyd Roberts wrote:
> duff knows what he's doing -- between the sheets.
>
> you wanna outcode duff?
I am sitting in my workshop reading this,
and now my head won't fit through the door.
--
Tom Duff. I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 23:15:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alexander Viro)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:15:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: <10011141500.ZM1198342@marvin>
Message-ID:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> On Nov 14, 5:41pm, Alexander Viro wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> > > UNIX applications can't exit without issuing the
> > > close system call. The exit system call internally calls out
> > > to close for each open file.
> >
> > Not bloody likely. _Many_ applications exit without calling close(), so
> > such system would die horribly under the leaks.
>
> No.
> Read what I said.
Erm... Ditto.
> The exit system call closes all open files.
Precisely. And any kernel that will try _not_ to do that will die under the
leaks produced by the $BIGNUM of applications expecting it do act as any
sane UNIX should. Thus "not bloody likely" - any attempt to change the
behaviour in that area is pretty much doomed.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 23:36:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Ish Rattan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:36:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] Multiprocessor system..
Message-ID:
I just changed the motherboard of a cpu+terminal machine to
one that has two PIII cpus. What to change in plan9.ini so that
it can use both cpus? Is there a command display the number of
cpus being used?
- ishwar
From td@pixar.com Tue Nov 14 23:54:53 2000
From: td@pixar.com (Tom Duff)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:54:53 -0800
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: Alexander Viro
"Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?" (Nov 14, 6:15pm)
References:
Message-ID: <10011141554.ZM1200618@marvin>
> Precisely. And any kernel that will try _not_ to do that will die under the
> leaks produced by the $BIGNUM of applications expecting it do act as any
> sane UNIX should.
Which UNIX version lacks this behavior?
(Or are you trying to run UNIX programs
on some non-UNIX?)
--
Tom Duff. I spent an interesting evening recently with a grain of salt.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 23:57:10 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:57:10 -0500
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <20001114235716.EA2CB199FF@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> > Precisely. And any kernel that will try _not_ to do that will die under the
> > leaks produced by the $BIGNUM of applications expecting it do act as any
> > sane UNIX should.
> Which UNIX version lacks this behavior?
> (Or are you trying to run UNIX programs
> on some non-UNIX?)
The hypothetical one positted earlier in this thread.
Sorry to butt in, but this is just getting riddiculous.
From cnielsen@pobox.com Tue Nov 14 23:57:44 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:57:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] Multiprocessor system..
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Ish Rattan wrote:
> I just changed the motherboard of a cpu+terminal machine
> to one that has two PIII cpus. What to change in
> plan9.ini so that it can use both cpus? Is there a
> command display the number of cpus being used?
remove the line that begins:
*nomp
--
Christopher Nielsen
cnielsen@pobox.com
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 00:31:13 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alexander Viro)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:31:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: <10011141554.ZM1200618@marvin>
Message-ID:
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> > Precisely. And any kernel that will try _not_ to do that will die under the
> > leaks produced by the $BIGNUM of applications expecting it do act as any
> > sane UNIX should.
> Which UNIX version lacks this behavior?
> (Or are you trying to run UNIX programs
> on some non-UNIX?)
Grr... OK, let me rephrase it:
I really doubt that there is (or ever was) a UNIX variant that
would not do close-on-exit. Reason: lots and lots of programs that would
kill such system with file leaks.
IOW, "not likely" was about "some numskull changed it" part - such attempt
would backfire immediately. We are in violent agreement...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 00:38:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 01:38:12 +0100
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References:
Message-ID: <020101c04e9c$5ad8db80$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Alexander Viro
> IOW, "not likely" was about "some numskull changed it" part - such attempt
> would backfire immediately. We are in violent agreement...
if some 'numskull' would stand up and call bullshit on dat
the world world would be a better place.
tell me why the BSD f/S was written?
quadratic rehash -- give me a break.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 14 22:43:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (kim kubik)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:43:12 -0800
Subject: [9fans] %DVIPSPage
Message-ID: <01c04e8c$454658c0$86ccefd1@pkwksj.sjna.corp.dom>
-----Original Message-----
From: Russ Cox
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:49 AM
Subject: [9fans] %DVIPSPage
>if you do
> dvips -Ppsfonts foo.dvi > foo.ps
>or dvips -Pbitmapfonts foo.dvi > foo.ps
>then you get nice %%Page: boundaries,
>but if you do
> dvips foo.dvi >foo.ps
>or dvips -Pps foo.dvi >foo.ps
>you get this weird %DVIPS stuff.
>
-------------------------
can't help with the dvips stuff (hell, I
almost still need help tying my shoes!) but
Rokicki's web page (and email) is at:
www.radicaleye.com
and he's usually interested in anything that
might be considered a bug in dvips, so altho I'm
sure he's more than busy, he may have a suggestion.
- kim
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 02:20:47 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 21:20:47 -0500
Subject: [9fans] %DVIPSPage
Message-ID: <20001115022049.27937199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I did what I should have done long ago:
type DVIPSSectionPage into google.
It appears that when dvips infers that the printer
would otherwise run out of memory, it breaks the
file into independent sections, and drops the %%Page
comments because the file is no longer DSC compliant.
The default postscript printer configuration apparently
is for 150k.
I've changed /sys/lib/texmf/dvips/config/config.ps
from saying "m 150000" to "m 10000000", which should
fix the problem, in all the printers.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 02:24:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:24:03 +0100
Subject: [9fans] %DVIPSPage
References: <20001115022049.27937199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <024c01c04eab$249fcb00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
russ, you should not know that and you have my sympathies.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 05:01:00 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Kotsopoulos)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:01:00 -0500
Subject: [9fans] [reminder] pointer to Plan 9 FAQ
Message-ID: <200011150501.AAA01941@smtp.fywss.com>
The Plan 9 faq is posted to comp.os.plan9 at the beginning of each month.
It is also at news.answers archive sites, look for comp-os/plan9-faq
The latest hypertext version of the faq is available at url
http://www.fywss.com/plan9/plan9faq.html
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 08:10:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:10:15 0000
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-kxfvdpzzatzirclffacicwhbmt
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Let me explain (and, yes, this is a quote from Fawlty Towers)
Programs which do not explicitly close flies before invoking exit() are
not
1) badly written
or
2) forcing Unix implementations to have to do close on exit to compensate
These are the defined semantics. So the reason is "because that's what
the program quite reasonably expects".
Just in the same way that you don't have to free all memory before
calling exit, unless, as in td's words "they've changed that since I
last looked". I know "they" did for 16 bit Windows applications, and
it's certainly the case for semaphores in Unix.
> Grr... OK, let me rephrase it:
>
> I really doubt that there is (or ever was) a UNIX variant that
> would not do close-on-exit. Reason: lots and lots of programs that would
> kill such system with file leaks.
--upas-kxfvdpzzatzirclffacicwhbmt
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From: Alexander Viro
To: Tom Duff
Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To: <10011141554.ZM1200618@marvin>
Message-ID:
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 19:31:13 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Tom Duff wrote:
> > Precisely. And any kernel that will try _not_ to do that will die under the
> > leaks produced by the $BIGNUM of applications expecting it do act as any
> > sane UNIX should.
> Which UNIX version lacks this behavior?
> (Or are you trying to run UNIX programs
> on some non-UNIX?)
Grr... OK, let me rephrase it:
I really doubt that there is (or ever was) a UNIX variant that
would not do close-on-exit. Reason: lots and lots of programs that would
kill such system with file leaks.
IOW, "not likely" was about "some numskull changed it" part - such attempt
would backfire immediately. We are in violent agreement...
--upas-kxfvdpzzatzirclffacicwhbmt--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 08:20:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alexander Viro)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:20:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 nigel@9fs.org wrote:
> Let me explain (and, yes, this is a quote from Fawlty Towers)
>
> Programs which do not explicitly close flies before invoking exit() are
> not
>
> 1) badly written
Sure.
> or
>
> 2) forcing Unix implementations to have to do close on exit to compensate
Sure.
> These are the defined semantics. So the reason is "because that's what
> the program quite reasonably expects".
... and so many programs _do_ expect it (quite reasonably) that changing
that behaviour would require the audit and rewrite of the whole userland.
Folks, how about finally agreeing that we agree and stopping that subthread?
It's getting really silly.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 09:07:03 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:07:03 0000
Subject: [9fans] Multiprocessor system..
Message-ID:
> Is there a command display the number of
> cpus being used?
cat /dev/sysstat
There is one line of information per active cpu.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 14:25:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Ish Rattan)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:25:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] 10141111.9gz patches..
Message-ID:
I tried to apply the patches as
wrap/inst 10141111.9gz
it says that files are newer and skips, the files have not
been modified but the system was installed on 10/14/00 after
a crash..
skillping /386/bin/acme: newer than archive
...
ls -l /386/bin/acme
-rwxrwxrwx ... Oct 14 16:45 /386/bin/acme
It is safe to use
wrap/inst -F 10141111.9z
I do not want to reinstall?
- ishwar
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 15 18:44:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:44:30 -0500
Subject: [9fans] 10141111.9gz patches..
Message-ID: <20001115184435.562F9199E7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
It is safe to use
wrap/inst -F 10141111.9z
This may be a false alarm (regarding /386/bin/acme).
Others have had similar troubles. But you should be
able to edit the wrap/inst -F command that wrap/inst prints
and then send it.
Russ
From arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Thu Nov 16 08:34:18 2000
From: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp (arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:34:18 0900
Subject: [9fans] httpd.c
Message-ID: <20001116083551.18EC4199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Hello,
I found a code bellow:
for(;;)sleep(1000);
in /sys/src/cmd/ip/httpd/httpd.c
Is this right?
Kenji Arisawa
E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 09:51:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:51:59 0000
Subject: [9fans] another version of the kernel notes
Message-ID: <20001116085109.B1FE1199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
You can download it from the same urls I gave before.
Forgive me for the errors yet to be fixed, and feel free
to suggest any kind of thing (reordering, fixes, using a
different approach to explain the code, adding things,
removing things, etc.)
regards
Since the last version of the document, these things have been fixed.
* Starting up chapter:
+ Small section about PC hardware added.
+ Horrendous bug about how do QIDs work fixed (I said that vers
was used to detect removed-and-recreated files, which is not
the case; In fact I think I understood that was not the case
long ago before starting this document. Too sleepy that day?
Too few caffeine? Who knows?).
I already wrote 1000 times how QIDs work, (thanks rc), so
I have paid my mistake.
+ pageinit has nothing to do with software for paging, it is
just initializing the page allocator. The starting up chapter
was saying it had to do with software MMU, although on the
next paragraphs it was described and the reader could know
what it really does.
+ psstate only holds the process state for ps.
+ process groups have name spaces, not processes. The
description was confussing.
* Process chapter:
+ Note added about why to use a scheduler stack.
+ Note added about why to have two scheduling classes.
+ Note added about other synch. means.
+ postnote fix.
+ Note for wakeup in pexit.
+ procstopwait fix.
* Files chapter: not yet fixed, but for...
+ Note added about why to have a limit on file descriptors.
* Memory chapter: not yet fixed.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 10:35:39 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Stephen Parker)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:35:39 -0000
Subject: [9fans] const declarators in structs
Message-ID:
i spent a while this morning pondering what an error message from 8c meant.
i tracked it down to a struct of the form:
struct S {
int const *p;
};
the compiler suggested that unnamed objects in structs should be of struct
type.
(i know that const isn't really a plan9 thing, but this was a bit of code
from a small device that i was trying to port.)
stephen
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 19:33:24 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:33:24 +0100
Subject: [9fans] httpd.c
References: <20001116083551.18EC4199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <016501c05004$16346e40$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> I found a code bellow:
> for(;;)sleep(1000);
> in /sys/src/cmd/ip/httpd/httpd.c
>
my theory is that they're trying to implement unix pause(2).
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 21:23:28 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Richard Miller)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:23:28 0000
Subject: [9fans] const declarators in structs
Message-ID:
stephen.parker@pitechnology.com reports a misleading C compiler error message from:
struct S {
int const *p;
};
The underlying cause is that the compiler expects const/volatile keywords before
other simple type names in a structure/union element declarator (but nowhere else) --
in the same context "const int *p" is considered acceptable.
Is this a deliberate choice or an oversight? If the latter, a simple correction
is to change the grammar as follows:
/sys/src/cmd/cc/cc.y:216 c cc.y:216
< etlist
---
> tlist
/sys/src/cmd/cc/cc.y:221 c cc.y:221
< | edecl etlist
---
> | edecl tlist
The definitions of etlist, etypes and tnlist then become redundant and can be
pruned from cc.y as well.
-- Richard Miller
From Stephen Wynne Thu Nov 16 02:10:19 2000
From: Stephen Wynne (Stephen M Wynne)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:10:19 -0500
Subject: [9fans] select()
Message-ID: <200011160210.VAA06775@mindspring.com>
In http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html, there's a hint that Plan 9's
design avoids some of the nastiness with select() here:
Compare this to the UNIX select system call: select applies only
to a restricted set of devices, legislates a style of
multiprogramming in the kernel, does not extend across networks,
is difficult to implement, and is hard to use.
Would someone be so kind as to elaborate? It looks like select() is
implemented very much like BSD select() in the APE.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 22:43:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:43:15 -0500
Subject: [9fans] select()
Message-ID: <20001116224334.5EC75199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
In http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html, there's a hint that Plan 9's
design avoids some of the nastiness with select() here:
Compare this to the UNIX select system call: select applies only
to a restricted set of devices, legislates a style of
multiprogramming in the kernel, does not extend across networks,
is difficult to implement, and is hard to use.
Would someone be so kind as to elaborate? It looks like select() is
implemented very much like BSD select() in the APE.
Select in the APE is implemented entirely at user level,
with no help from the kernel. It continually calls sleep(100)
and then checks for input. Select on most Unix systems
is a system call, which requires the kernel to do all that
and usually more. Further, since select requires that at most
one of the reads succeeds, it is very hard to implement once
you have file systems coming from somewhere other than
local resources (e.g., any network file system). It also often
makes for awkward program structure.
The passage you quote is, I believe, arguing that Alef's
style of multiprogramming is a better solution than select,
not that Plan 9 makes select easier to implement. Select is
inherently hard to implement because of its specification.
Rob argues the benefits of a precursor to the Plan 9 style
of multiprogramming more extensively in
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/doc/89/1-a.ps.gz.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 17 19:13:25 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:13:25 -0400
Subject: [9fans] Tired of the 40 X 40 Plan? 6444
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From cnielsen@pobox.com Fri Nov 17 23:48:43 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:48:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID:
I've been tinkering with connecting to my fileserver over IL
at home via my DSL line across the Internet and through a
Cisco router acting as a firewall and NAT.
The router keeps responding with ICMP host unreachable, but
I know I can get to the machines in question.
I've opened a TAC case with Cisco to see what they had to
say. Having probably never even heard of IL, the engineer
has responded that he doesn't think IL is "NAT compliant".
My gut response is bollocks, but is there any reason that IL
wouldn't work through NAT other than Cisco hasn't written
the code to handle it?
--
Christopher Nielsen
cnielsen@pobox.com
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Fri Nov 17 23:56:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:56:38 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Message from Christopher Nielsen
of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:48:43 PST."
Message-ID: <20001117235638.5280.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu>
| My gut response is bollocks, but is there any reason that IL
| wouldn't work through NAT other than Cisco hasn't written
| the code to handle it?
That's exactly the problem with NAT. Every application has to be
specially hacked into the firewall.
To my way of thinking, it's much nicer to import /net from the firewall
instead.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 00:17:47 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:17:47 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID: <20001118001754.DE2F0199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
NAT routers generally have to rewrite port numbers (not just IP
addresses) for protocols that use them, and ports numbers are at
different offsets and of potentially different sizes in different
protocol's headers. IL's port numbers appear later than TCP's and
UDP's, for example. NAT routers will generally understand the headers
of TCP, UDP and ICMP at minimum, but I haven't encountered one yet
that understood IL (even Lucent's own).
Contrary to what Scott just said, it's not each application that has
to be added to a NAT router, but each protocol that rides directly on
IP (or beside it).
From cnielsen@pobox.com Sat Nov 18 00:50:25 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:50:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: <20001118001754.DE2F0199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID:
On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 geoff@x.bell-labs.com wrote:
> NAT routers generally have to rewrite port numbers (not
> just IP addresses) for protocols that use them, and
> ports numbers are at different offsets and of
> potentially different sizes in different protocol's
> headers. IL's port numbers appear later than TCP's and
> UDP's, for example. NAT routers will generally
> understand the headers of TCP, UDP and ICMP at minimum,
> but I haven't encountered one yet that understood IL
> (even Lucent's own).
That makes perfect sense, and if I would have been a little
more patient and thought it through, I probably would have
figured that out.
That said, I have some sway with Cisco's development team,
so I _might_ be able to get them to implement support for
IL. I'll let you know how it goes.
--
Christopher Nielsen
cnielsen@pobox.com
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 01:19:31 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 02:19:31 +0100
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
References: <20001118001754.DE2F0199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <004701c050fd$a481eca0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> NAT routers generally have to rewrite port numbers (not just IP
> addresses) ...
yes, i tracked down a particularly nasty case of a firewall
doing NAT to UDP packets with a destination port of 53 [DNS].
i found that some DNS servers would not reply to requests
that didn't have a source port of 53; NAT having munged
the source address and port.
i would have found it a lot faster if my pleas for a
protocol analyser had been heeded -- i'd only been
bitching about it for a _year_. somehow i managed
to forge up some queries that demonstrated the
problem.
i also had the added stumbling block of not knowing or
being able to know the firewall's config. contractors
were prohibited from going near them, except when things
were _really_ screwed up.
``oh, but that's impossible, boyd... err, i see''.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 03:02:08 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:02:08 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Message from geoff@x.bell-labs.com
of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:17:47 EST." <20001118001754.DE2F0199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001118030208.7775.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu>
| Contrary to what Scott just said, it's not each application that has
| to be added to a NAT router, but each protocol that rides directly on
| IP (or beside it).
Isn't it the case that some applications, like ftp, encode ip address
and port information in application layer traffic, which NAT has to
account for? Linux seems to have code to handle that sort of stuff
(linux/net/ipv4/ip_masq*).
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 03:21:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:21:26 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID: <20001118032427.B11EB199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-wqjntrvqllaokorboxepflkazi
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I'm not sure; it's certainly possible that individual applications do
such things.
The usual problem with ftp is that by default ftp clients, especially
older ones, tend to trigger connections back from the target system to
port 20. ftp's so-called ``passive'' mode forces the connections to
be placed from the initiating system and avoids this problem.
--upas-wqjntrvqllaokorboxepflkazi
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Message from geoff@x.bell-labs.com
of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:17:47 EST." <20001118001754.DE2F0199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
From: Scott Schwartz
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:02:08 -0500
| Contrary to what Scott just said, it's not each application that has
| to be added to a NAT router, but each protocol that rides directly on
| IP (or beside it).
Isn't it the case that some applications, like ftp, encode ip address
and port information in application layer traffic, which NAT has to
account for? Linux seems to have code to handle that sort of stuff
(linux/net/ipv4/ip_masq*).
--upas-wqjntrvqllaokorboxepflkazi--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 06:32:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:32:53 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID: <20001118063257.01E01199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//That said, I have some sway with Cisco's
//development team, so I _might_ be able to
//get them to implement support for IL.
ooh, that'd be embarasing. Cisco supporting a
protocol developed at Bell Labs that Lucent's
own products don't support. er, or does Lucent
not do that sort of thing any more? maybe we
should go talk to Avaya...
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 13:53:50 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Theo Honohan)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:53:50 +0000
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:21:26 EST."
<20001118032427.B11EB199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
References: <20001118032427.B11EB199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID:
geoff@x.bell-labs.com wrote:
> scott wrote:
> >
> > Isn't it the case that some applications, like ftp, encode ip address
> > and port information in application layer traffic, which NAT has to
> > account for? Linux seems to have code to handle that sort of stuff
> > (linux/net/ipv4/ip_masq*).
>
> I'm not sure; it's certainly possible that individual applications do
> such things.
I think Scott's right. All viable NAT products do this, although it's not
strictly part of NAT. A search for "NAT" on Cisco's site confirms
that they support the use of "PORT" in ftp, and a slew of features of
other protocols that would otherwise be broken by NAT.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 14:04:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:04:30 -0500
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID: <20001118140436.AEAA6199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
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we don't do any in home stuff, that all goes off with avaya and Microelectronics,
our 2 current spin offs. Orinoco (aka wavelan) also goes with micro.
--upas-betjmtvhbnvytdlijfqvfdsywh
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From: anothy@cosym.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, cnielsen@pobox.com
Subject: Re: [9fans] IL and NAT
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 01:32:53 -0500
//That said, I have some sway with Cisco's
//development team, so I _might_ be able to
//get them to implement support for IL.
ooh, that'd be embarasing. Cisco supporting a
protocol developed at Bell Labs that Lucent's
own products don't support. er, or does Lucent
not do that sort of thing any more? maybe we
should go talk to Avaya...
-Îą.
--upas-betjmtvhbnvytdlijfqvfdsywh--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 18:42:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:42:05 0000
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
Message-ID:
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Before we are too down on NAT implementations, there is a distinction
between NAT and NAPT, according to various RFCs and associated
documents.
NAT means what is says: address translation. NAPT means address and
port. You can simply translate addresses and maintain the port, but
this means that typically only one internal node can communicate.If
you do this, then the protocol is irrelevant, and IL would pass
through.
In fact, since it has been mentioned, Lucent devices (neĂŠ Ascend),
worked this way until it became apparent that Cisco had implemented
NAPT and they rolled out the full monty. They called it "single address
translation".
Once you choose to translate ports as well, as has been said, you need
to understand where the ports are; for TCP and UDP it is in the same place,
so they get done. It is completely unsurprising that other protocols aren't.
ICMP gets done because it's dull if you can't traceroute and ping. It takes
hacks, but it can be done.
FTP is depressing. Anyone out there designing protocols: take note, don't
embed IP addresses in the stream.
Others are as bad, or insoluble: luckily, they are less important, like IRC
or RealAudio.
On top of this, to create some 'reliability', commerical NAT routers
have a list of TCP and UDP ports which they are prepared to translate.
'Known good' if you like. My Pipeline 75 does not do POP3
automatically. I had to tell it to, despite the protestations of the
manuals. I looked for a software update, but since Lucent bought
them, this doesn't happen any more. Some other products, I
understand, refuse straightforward protocols like POP3 despite best
efforts.
So, the summary is use 9p over TCP, not IL, unless you can rewrite
your router. This is becoming easier since both FreeBSD and Linux
have WAN drivers, and NAT code.
As it happens, all translation in FreeBSD is done using a library,
with plug-ins for various awkward protocols. Fix the library, and all
the various translators (natd, pppd, pppoed) would all fall into
line. Modifying the implementation to do IL would be straightforward
I think.
--upas-apybwrxrobjqbpliblsvznsbtl
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:21:26 EST."
<20001118032427.B11EB199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
References: <20001118032427.B11EB199E6@mail.cse.psu.edu>
From: Theo Honohan
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:53:50 +0000
geoff@x.bell-labs.com wrote:
> scott wrote:
> >
> > Isn't it the case that some applications, like ftp, encode ip address
> > and port information in application layer traffic, which NAT has to
> > account for? Linux seems to have code to handle that sort of stuff
> > (linux/net/ipv4/ip_masq*).
>
> I'm not sure; it's certainly possible that individual applications do
> such things.
I think Scott's right. All viable NAT products do this, although it's not
strictly part of NAT. A search for "NAT" on Cisco's site confirms
that they support the use of "PORT" in ftp, and a slew of features of
other protocols that would otherwise be broken by NAT.
--upas-apybwrxrobjqbpliblsvznsbtl--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 19:00:32 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Theo Honohan)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:00:32 +0000
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:42:05."
References:
Message-ID:
nigel@9fs.org wrote:
>
> Before we are too down on NAT implementations, there is a distinction
> between NAT and NAPT, according to various RFCs and associated
> documents.
Yes, quite. I didn't mean to be "down on" simple NAT implementations;
OTOH, I do still think it's a fair to say that you need to do both NAT
and NAPT to be a viable product, these days.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 19:24:46 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:24:46 +0100
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
References:
Message-ID: <00d101c05195$369b53a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> In fact, since it has been mentioned, Lucent devices (neĂŠ Ascend),
you mean: nĂŠe; the feminine past participle of the verb 'naĂŽtre' [to be born].
the past participle is 'nĂŠ' and is conjugated with 'ĂŞtre' [to be]. it's highly
irreguler, as most verbs, in the past tense, are conjugated with 'avoir' [to
have].
je suis nĂŠ [i was born]
je suis nĂŠe [if i was female]
bit like 'mourir' [to die]:
je suis mort
je suis morte
where normally you'd use 'avoir', except for movement and reflexive verbs:
j'ai deconnĂŠ [i screwed up or pissed about]
and no 'e' on the end of the past participle if you conjugate with 'avoir'.
but i digress :-) je dĂŠconne...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 23:19:16 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:19:16 +0100
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
Message-ID: <013e01c051b5$f93367c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
i want to compile /utils/mk for inferno after configuring
mkconfig and it tries to use:
CC=cl
AS=ml
which don't exist, so i'm a bit confused.
i got in mkconfig:
SYSHOST=Nt
OBJTYPE=386
as i understand it i have to compile it from windows.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 23:43:52 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:43:52 -0500
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
Message-ID: <20001118234355.9B81A199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu>
CC=cl
AS=ml
cl and ml are the microsoft visual c/c++ compiler/linker
and presumably the assembler/linker. cl stands for
compile and/or link.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 19 03:07:46 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:07:46 -0600
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sun Nov 19 08:04:22 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:04:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] 2.9 cents per min. -- agents needed--$9000/mo
Message-ID: <200011190804.CAA32595@sys27.hou.wt.net>
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Thu Nov 16 11:43:04 2000
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:43:04 -1200
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From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sat Nov 18 14:20:34 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Kilbane)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:20:34 +0000
Subject: [9fans] IL and NAT
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:48:43 PST."
Message-ID: <200011181420.OAA03216@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
> My gut response is bollocks, but is there any reason that IL
> wouldn't work through NAT other than Cisco hasn't written
> the code to handle it?
If I recall Firewall-1 correctly, you can bodge up support for
rare protocols by specifying some low-level transformation rules:
if (value at offset x) == y, change bytes elsewhere accordingly.
I was only skimming docs at the time, and never got around to
reading it in detail, so I might be completely wrong. Point is,
though, does your Cisco support something similar?
As for it going into the Cisco base product (from which an entire
range of Cisco units are produced), I'd put the chances at approximately
equal to the market: practically none. Even if you gave them the code
for free, they'd have to make sure it didn't break anything else, and
that'd cost them.
steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 08:44:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:44:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [9fans] Matrox G400
Message-ID: <200011200844.SAA18577@asuncion.dstc.edu.au>
[I posted about 3 variants of this on the local NNTP g/w to 9fans
and if anyone can confirm they got out, I didn't seeums hence
the repeat mail.]
I added my G400 to vgadb using the device ID string the error message that
the initial probe gives, but that didn't seem enough to get it working.
(died in a later phase of PCI vga device frob)
are there simple textfile changes I can make to vgadb to enable
a g400 to work like older Matrox cards or does this one wait
for smarter people to code?
btw, after the addition and the subsequent vga.txt file, the disk was
not a valid FAT object and I had to recut the plan9.9fd floppy. it was
readable but then not writable. a buglet in the FAT emulation?
-George
----
before added to vgadb
aux/vga: controller not in /lib/vgadb
0xC0000 55 AA 40 EB 7B 15 D0 03 A0 04 E0 0B 7E 31 1A 0C U.@.{.......~1..
0xC0010 24 0C FF FF 00 00 00 00 60 00 00 00 00 20 49 42 $.......`.... IB
0xC0020 4D 20 43 4F 4D 50 41 54 49 42 4C 45 20 4D 41 54 M COMPATIBLE MAT
0xC0030 52 4F 58 2F 4D 61 74 72 6F 78 20 47 34 30 30 20 ROX/Matrox G400
0xC0040 56 47 41 2F 56 42 45 20 42 49 4F 53 20 28 56 31 VGA/VBE BIOS (V1
0xC0050 2E 35 29 20 62 32 32 20 00 87 DB 87 DB 87 DB 90 .5) b22 ........
0xC0060 50 43 49 52 2B 10 25 05 00 00 18 00 00 00 00 03 PCIR+.%.........
0xC0070 40 00 15 16 00 80 00 00 38 39 37 2D 31 35 00 FF @.......897-15..
0xC0080 55 33 C0 8E D8 8E C0 E8 4D 59 2E 89 1E F2 7F BF U3......MY......
0xC0090 08 00 B0 08 90 E8 AD 58 2E 88 0E F4 7F E8 02 01 .......X........
0xC00A0 E8 94 56 2E 8B 1E F2 7F 2E 8B 1E F2 7F E8 03 2B ..V............+
0xC00B0 BF 43 00 90 B0 08 90 E8 8B 58 80 C9 10 B0 0B 90 .C.......X......
0xC00C0 E8 82 58 BF 08 00 B0 08 90 E8 79 58 80 F9 02 75 ..X.......yX...u
0xC00D0 13 B1 1A 90 90 E8 6E 5C 80 C9 40 8A E9 B1 1A 90 ......n\..@.....
0xC00E0 90 E8 47 5C 2E F6 06 B5 7A 04 74 13 BF 40 00 90 ..G\....z.t..@..
0xC00F0 B0 08 90 E8 4F 58 80 C9 40 B0 0B 90 E8 46 58 E8 ....OX..@....FX.
main->snarf
vga->snarf
vga->dump
vga misc 67
vga feature 00
vga sequencer 03 00 03 00 02
vga crt 5F 4F 50 82 55 81 BF 1F - 00 4F 0D 0E 00 00 07 80
9C 8E 8F 28 1F 96 B9 A3 - FF
vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 10 0E 00 - FF
vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 - 38 39 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F
0C 00 0F 08 00
vga apz 0
vga linear 0
vmf 25175000 vmdf 0 vf1 0 vbw 0
vga->init
dbdumpmode
type=vga, size=640x480x1
frequency=25175000
x=640 (0x280), y=480 (0x1E0), z=1 (0x1)
ht=800 (0x320), shb=664 (0x298), ehb=760 (0x2F8)
shs=664 (0x298), ehs=760 (0x2F8)
vt=525 (0x20D), vrs=491 (0x1EB), vre=493 (0x1ED)
hsync=0, vsync=0, interlace=0
vga->dump
vga flag Fdump|Finit|Fsnarf
vga misc E3
vga feature 00
vga sequencer 03 01 0F 00 06
vga crt 5F 4F 52 9F 53 1F20B 3E - 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00
1EB 2D1DF 28 001EB1EC C3 -7FF
vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 0F - FF
vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 - 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
01 FF 0F 00 00
vga apz 0
vga linear 0
main->exits
-----
after added to vgadb:
main->snarf
vga->snarf
mga2164w->snarf
sequencer->enter on
sequencer->leave on
mga2164w: no Pcidev with Vid=0x102B, Did=0x051[9BF] or 0x521
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:33:30 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (John A. Murdie)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:33:30 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 on notebooks
Message-ID:
On 10th November, I wrote:
>Is the `Plan 9 from Bell Labs - supported PC hardware' page
>(http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/pchardware.html) the whole
>story, particularly on the subject of Plan 9 on notebooks? The
>August 2000 FAQ (the latest I've seen) says nothing more. I'd
>rather like Plan 9 on a notebook.
Thanks again to the individuals who mailed me with useful
information. I was a little surprised to hear that 800x600
display resolution was so common. Can anyone tell me which of
the notebooks which will run Plan 9 `out of the box' (or for
which diffs are available) will support 1024x768?
John A. Murdie
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:58:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Daniel Warmuth)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:58:38 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Matrox G400/SH/32 MB supported?
Message-ID: <3a16f743.34190565@news.cis.dfn.de>
Hi!
Is there any way to get the Matrox G400 SH 32 MB working with Plan9 ?
I didn't try anything but botting with the boot-floppy because
Bell-Labs' website says it is not supported...
There was a hex-dump displayed when booting, i could note it, if it
would help you.
Thanks,
Daniel
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:58:02 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:58:02 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Troubles with display - graphics card supported
Message-ID: <8v6qsh$36r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Hello!
I'm excited about getting started with Plan 9, but I've run into one
problem. I read all the documentation I could find. I would have dug
into the man pages and papers more, but I thought it would have been a
stab in the dark. I've included stuff from plan9.ini, vgadb, and
vgainfo.txt
aux/vga doesn't seem to be initializing my video card right. I get to
the portion of the install where the display is initialized, and get the
black screen.
I checked to make sure the supported chipset was the one I have on my
card by looking at what Xwindows said. It was indeed the mga2164w on my
Matrox Millenium.
I got the info from the BIOS from the video card from vgainfo.txt the
first time around. The Text was at the right offset according to the
vgadb, but there was a different version bios, so I added it to the
vgadb - its the V2.3 line:
ctlr
0xC002D="MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V1.9 )" #
Millennium
0xC002D="MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V3.0 )" #
Millennium
0xC002D="MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V2.5 )" #
Millennium
0xC002D="MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V2.3 )" #
Millennium
0xC002D="MATROX/MISTRAL VGA/VBE BIOS (V1." #
Millennium II
link=vga
ctlr=mga2164w linear=1
hwgc=mga2164whwgc
I also changed the monitor entry in plan9.ini to match the one I have.
And I changed the vgasize to 640x480x8 to be safe:
*nomp=1 distname=plan9 partition=new ether0=type=NE2000 monitor=cpd-1304
vgasize=640x480x8 mouseport=0 audio0=type=sb16 bootargs=local!#f0/fd0disk
bootfile=fd0!dos!9pcflop.gz
installurl=http://204.178.31.2/magic/9down/compressed/974514989.t4893ntezs2y4
vh2vedvisfrqd9mz4wk
for reference heres what vgadb says about the monitor:
#
# Sony CPD-1304
# Horizontal timing:
# Allowable frequency range: 28-50KHz
# Vertical timing:
# Allowable frequency range: 50-87Hz
#
cpd-1304
videobw=65
alias=multisync
,so this too:
# Multisync monitors. The entry with alias=multisync supplies the
bandwidth,
# which in turn decides the refresh rates when possible.
#
multisync
alias=vga
multisync = 1024x768
include=1024x768
multisync = 1024x768i
include=1024x768i
multisync = 1152x900
include=1152x900@70Hz
multisync = 1280x1024
include=1280x1024
multisync = 1280x1024i
include=1280x1024i
multisync = 1376x1024
include=1376x1024
, and some of these by reference:
include = 640x480 # 60Hz, 31.5KHz
clock=25.175
shb=664 ehb=760 ht=800
vrs=491 vre=493 vt=525
include = 640x480@72Hz # 72Hz, 38.5KHz
clock=32
shb=664 ehb=704 ht=832
vrs=489 vre=492 vt=520
include = 800x600 # 60Hz, 37.9KHz
defaultclock=40
shb=840 ehb=1000 ht=1056
vrs=605 vre=607 vt=633
include = 1024x768i # 87Hz, 35.5KHz
defaultclock=44.9
shb=1048 ehb=1208 ht=1264
vrs=776 vre=784 vt=817
interlace=v
include = 1024x768@60Hz # 60Hz, 48.4KHz
defaultclock=65
shb=1032 ehb=1176 ht=1344
shs=1056
vrs=771 vre=777 vt=806
hsync=- vsync=-
include = 1024x768 # 70Hz, 57.2KHz
defaultclock=75
shb=1096 ehb=1232 ht=1328
shs=1072
vrs=771 vre=777 vt=806
hsync=- vsync=-
include = 1280x1024i # 87Hz, 48KHz
defaultclock=80
shb=1312 ehb=1528 ht=1576
vrs=1028 vre=1034 vt=1105
interlace=v
include = 1280x1024@60Hz # 60Hz, 63.9KHz
defaultclock=110
shb=1312 ehb=1496 ht=1720 # All from
xvidtune
vrs=1025 vre=1028 vt=1074
include = 1280x1024 # 74Hz, 79.6KHz
defaultclock=135
shb=1376 ehb=1544 ht=1712
shs=1392
vrs=1028 vre=1034 vt=1075
include = 1376x1024 # 70Hz, 75.3KHz
defaultclock=135
shb=1440 ehb=1616 ht=1792
vrs=1032 vre=1040 vt=1075
include = 1152x900@70Hz # 72Hz,
67.9KHz
clock=100
shb=1184 ehb=1376 ht=1472
vrs=900 vre=902 vt=940
#hsync=- vsync=-
Heres my current vgainfo.txt:
main->snarf
vga->snarf
mga2164w->snarf
x[0]=1
x[1]=2
x[2]=255
x[3]=255
probe found 4 megabytes
vga->dump
vga misc 67
vga feature 00
vga sequencer 03 00 03 00 02
vga crt 60 4F 50 83 55 81 BF 1F - 00 4F 0D 0E 00 00 07 80
9C 8E 8F 28 1F 96 B9 A3 - FF
vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 10 0E 00 - FF
vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 - 38 39 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F
0C 00 0F 08 00
vga vmz 4194304
vga apz 0
vga linear 1
vga->attr: 0xC002D=MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V2.3 )
mga2164w->dump
mga2164w Devctrl 28000A3
mga2164w Option 5F2C0100
mga2164w Crtcext 00 00 00 00 00 00
mga2164w TVP FF 11 11 11 11 11 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06
06 06 06 06 06 06 06 06 - 80 98 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 1E EE B2 71 B2
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF - 00 18 00 EF 00 00 00 26
mga2164w PCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164w MCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164w LCLK BF 3F B2
mga2164whwgc->dump
mga2164whwgc Devctrl28000A3
mga2164whwgc Option 5F2C0100
mga2164whwgc Crtcext 00 00 00 00 00 00
mga2164whwgc TVP FF 11 11 11 11 11 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06
06 06 06 06 06 06 06 06 - 80 98 00 00 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 1E EE B2 71 B2
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF - 00 18 00 EF 00 00 00 26
mga2164whwgc PCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164whwgc MCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164whwgc LCLK BF 3F B2
vmf 25175000 vmdf 0 vf1 0 vbw 65000000
mga2164w->options
vga->init
mga2164w->init
pixbuswidth=64
dbdumpmode
type=cpd-1304, size=640x480x8
frequency=25175000
x=640 (0x280), y=480 (0x1E0), z=8 (0x8)
ht=808 (0x328), shb=664 (0x298), ehb=760 (0x2F8)
shs=664 (0x298), ehs=760 (0x2F8)
vt=525 (0x20D), vrs=491 (0x1EB), vre=493 (0x1ED)
hsync=0, vsync=0, interlace=0
vga->dump
vga flag Fdump|Finit|Fsnarf
vga misc EB
vga feature 00
vga sequencer 03 01 0F 00 0A
vga crt 60 4F 4F 84 53 9F20B 3E - 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00
1EB 2D1DF 28 001DF20C E3 -7FF
vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 50 05 0F - FF
vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 - 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
41 FF 0F 00 00
vga clock[0] f 25175000
vga clock[0] d i m 0 0 - 21
vga clock[0] n p q r 40 3 - 0 0
vga clock[1] f 3725160
vga clock[1] d i m 0 0 - 61
vga clock[1] n p q r 33 3 - 14 0
vga vmz 4194304
vga apz 0
vga linear 1
vga->attr: 0xC002D=MATROX/MILLENNIUM VGA/VBE BIOS (V2.3 )
mga2164w->dump
mga2164w flag Ulinear|Fdump|Finit|Foptions|Fsnarf
mga2164w Devctrl 28000A3
mga2164w Option 5F2C1100
mga2164w Crtcext 00 40 00 80 00 00
mga2164w TVP FF 11 11 11 11 11 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06
06 06 06 06 06 06 06 06 - 80 4C 25 00 00 00 04 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 1E EE B2 71 B2
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF - 00 3E 00 EF 00 00 00 26
mga2164w PCLK E8 15 B3
mga2164w MCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164w LCLK E1 3D F3
mga2164whwgc->dump
mga2164whwgc flag Fdump
mga2164whwgc Devctrl28000A3
mga2164whwgc Option 5F2C1100
mga2164whwgc Crtcext 00 40 00 80 00 00
mga2164whwgc TVP FF 11 11 11 11 11 00 00 - 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06
06 06 06 06 06 06 06 06 - 80 4C 25 00 00 00 04 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 - 00 00 00 1E EE B2 71 B2
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF - 00 3E 00 EF 00 00 00 26
mga2164whwgc PCLK E8 15 B3
mga2164whwgc MCLK FD 3A B2
mga2164whwgc LCLK E1 3D F3
main->exits
Thanks! I hope someone can help with this. I would really like to
start to use plan 9!
-Justin
PS I like glenda.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:57:27 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:57:27 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Promela
Message-ID: <8v38em$baf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Have anybody here programmed "The Bakery Algorithm" in promela? If
that's the case, I would appreciate to have a look at it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:56:07 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alt)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:56:07 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Plaen Nien with 16 MB.
Message-ID: <3A132470.FBC642B8@card.kyiv.net>
Hello there.
Is it possible to run plan 9 at machine with16 mb.
It refuse to be runned at 16 but there is written that it could work at
16 like terminal.
Finally, is such memory really requaired for such small OS like Plan9 ?
Bye.
--Alt.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:55:48 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:55:48 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Matrox G400 dev recog via vgadb
Message-ID: <974289235.997283@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
Ok so I tried the bleeding obvious and stabbed the VGA dev string
back into vgadb. The string added to vgadb was:
0xC002D="MATROX/Matrox G400 VGA/VBE BIOS (V1.5)" # Millennium II
(I'm guessing that #comment rules apply so not changing the comment didn't
freak this file)
It done this:
main->snarf
vga->snarf
mga2164w->snarf
sequencer->enter on
sequencer->leave on
mga2164w: no Pcidev with Vid=0x102B, Did=0x051[9BF] or 0x521
interestingly the floppy is now unreadable. thats a brand new imation disk
out of a box. maybe debug writeback smashes FAT structure sometimes?
cheers
-George
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:55:32 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:55:32 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Matrox G400 any closer to working?
Message-ID: <974287617.283470@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
nnnnnnNNNNNNNNNGH! aw. damn. so near and yet....
Gee. almost there. its nice to get dumped to a prompt that
responds to ls. Of course, mandatory humour probably dictated
it was a CSH % instead of a SH $ -but surely a large ? would have
been more fitting?
Silly question but since almost all VGA cards work at 640x480
from base VGA frobs, why is install demanding higher rez driver state?
[If anyone has a simple canned recipe to stash on a 9disk.9fd for a Matrox
G400 I'd love it...]
cheers
-George
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:55:16 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Chris Locke)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:55:16 GMT
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: , <01db01c04e8d$692a29a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <974282820.25325.0.nnrp-08.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk>
The kernel cannot close the fds if the machine has crashed.
The original post said "if the local machine crashes".
This can also be read as "some numskul knocked
the reset button / kicked the power lead out /
raccoon sat on local power transformer etc. etc."
Chris.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:54:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Wilhelm B. Kloke)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:54:59 GMT
Subject: [9fans] FreeBSD IL and 9P patches
References:
Message-ID: <8utf8q$27ul$1@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de>
In article ,
Christopher Nielsen wrote:
>I've been working on updating the IL and 9P patches for
>FreeBSD so that they apply to the current head branch.
>
>My intention is to get the code committed to the FreeBSD
>source tree. If the original author doesn't have the time to
>act as maintainer, I'm willing to do that.
Very good. I would appreciate, if you announce a place where to find your
work, in case the commit procedure lasts longer.
BTW. Are there chances that the patches apply to 4.0 or do I have to
upgrade first?
--
Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke
Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund
Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:54:44 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Greg Shubin)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:54:44 GMT
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001114195151.5AA83199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A11C5C3.AE86BE1A@sonic.net>
David Gordon Hogan wrote:
> there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> they won't say what it is.
>
It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:56:58 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:56:58 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Matrox G400 driver status
Message-ID: <974420680.55422@eeyore.dstc.edu.au>
I posted two on this, but neither showed up in my local newsthread
leading me to suspect a mail:news g/w died. Thatm, or my incoherance
did me no favours again.
booting with an otherwise normal plan9.9fd I got the predictable:
> aux/vga: controller not in /lib/vgadb
> 0xC0000 55 AA 40 EB 7B 15 D0 03 A0 04 E0 0B 7E 31 1A 0C U.@.{.......~1..
> 0xC0010 24 0C FF FF 00 00 00 00 60 00 00 00 00 20 49 42 $.......`.... IB
> 0xC0020 4D 20 43 4F 4D 50 41 54 49 42 4C 45 20 4D 41 54 M COMPATIBLE MAT
> 0xC0030 52 4F 58 2F 4D 61 74 72 6F 78 20 47 34 30 30 20 ROX/Matrox G400
> 0xC0040 56 47 41 2F 56 42 45 20 42 49 4F 53 20 28 56 31 VGA/VBE BIOS (V1
> 0xC0050 2E 35 29 20 62 32 32 20 00 87 DB 87 DB 87 DB 90 .5) b22 ........
> 0xC0060 50 43 49 52 2B 10 25 05 00 00 18 00 00 00 00 03 PCIR+.%.........
> 0xC0070 40 00 15 16 00 80 00 00 38 39 37 2D 31 35 00 FF @.......897-15..
> 0xC0080 55 33 C0 8E D8 8E C0 E8 4D 59 2E 89 1E F2 7F BF U3......MY......
> 0xC0090 08 00 B0 08 90 E8 AD 58 2E 88 0E F4 7F E8 02 01 .......X........
> 0xC00A0 E8 94 56 2E 8B 1E F2 7F 2E 8B 1E F2 7F E8 03 2B ..V............+
> 0xC00B0 BF 43 00 90 B0 08 90 E8 8B 58 80 C9 10 B0 0B 90 .C.......X......
> 0xC00C0 E8 82 58 BF 08 00 B0 08 90 E8 79 58 80 F9 02 75 ..X.......yX...u
> 0xC00D0 13 B1 1A 90 90 E8 6E 5C 80 C9 40 8A E9 B1 1A 90 ......n\..@.....
> 0xC00E0 90 E8 47 5C 2E F6 06 B5 7A 04 74 13 BF 40 00 90 ..G\....z.t..@..
> 0xC00F0 B0 08 90 E8 4F 58 80 C9 40 B0 0B 90 E8 46 58 E8 ....OX..@....FX.
> main->snarf
> vga->snarf
> vga->dump
> vga misc 67
> vga feature 00
> vga sequencer 03 00 03 00 02
> vga crt 5F 4F 50 82 55 81 BF 1F - 00 4F 0D 0E 00 00 07 80
> 9C 8E 8F 28 1F 96 B9 A3 - FF
> vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 10 0E 00 - FF
> vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 - 38 39 3A 3B 3C 3D 3E 3F
> 0C 00 0F 08 00
> vga apz 0
> vga linear 0
>
> vmf 25175000 vmdf 0 vf1 0 vbw 0
> vga->init
> dbdumpmode
> type=vga, size=640x480x1
> frequency=25175000
> x=640 (0x280), y=480 (0x1E0), z=1 (0x1)
> ht=800 (0x320), shb=664 (0x298), ehb=760 (0x2F8)
> shs=664 (0x298), ehs=760 (0x2F8)
> vt=525 (0x20D), vrs=491 (0x1EB), vre=493 (0x1ED)
> hsync=0, vsync=0, interlace=0
> vga->dump
> vga flag Fdump|Finit|Fsnarf
> vga misc E3
> vga feature 00
> vga sequencer 03 01 0F 00 06
> vga crt 5F 4F 52 9F 53 1F20B 3E - 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00
> 1EB 2D1DF 28 001EB1EC C3 -7FF
> vga graphics 00 00 00 00 00 00 05 0F - FF
> vga attribute 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 - 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F
> 01 FF 0F 00 00
> vga apz 0
> vga linear 0
>
> main->exits
I added the device probe string for my Matrox G400 into vgadb but
all it does it make the boot floppy print a different failure:
> main->snarf
> vga->snarf
> mga2164w->snarf
> sequencer->enter on
> sequencer->leave on
> mga2164w: no Pcidev with Vid=0x102B, Did=0x051[9BF] or 0x521
I'm guessing the black art of making mostly similar cards work is
not as simple as I'd hoped.
Has anyone progressed further here? is there a new hwgc entry or
something binaryish which is defeating me?
cheers
-George
PS first one to hit me with a 'buy an obsolete card and stick it in'
gets a free hollerith card pre-printed for basic-by-numbers coding.
I have a ream of them, they make good roaches if you don't mind the ink...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:56:21 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:56:21 GMT
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: , <01db01c04e8d$692a29a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <3A14156C.952BDDA2@arl.army.mil>
Boyd Roberts wrote:
> here we go. the kernel closes the fd's as a part of exit,
> like td said.
Further, upon return from main(), all the exit() actions
are performed.
_exit(), on the other hand, does not perform any stdio.
(Its main use is in a child branch of a fork.)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:56:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:56:33 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Installation on Solaris platform
Message-ID: <3A1414EB.44E93448@arl.army.mil>
After considerable wasted effort, I think I have finally
figured out the main culprit thwarting my attempts to get
multiple OSes including Plan 9 installed on a single disk.
Apparently the 10MB "x86 boot" partition that Solaris 8
really wants to use messes up something in the partition
table and possibly in boot blocks in other partitions.
Anyway, when I forced an installation without the x86
boot partition, all four OSes (WinMe, Win2K Pro, Plan9r3,
Solaris8) ended up being bootable and useable. (I'm using
System Commander to handle the various multiboot tasks.)
Anybody else having similar problems might try this.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:57:49 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:57:49 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Ati Xpert 98 Video card
Message-ID: <%yyR5.149579$ib7.19937854@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com>
I should have no problem using a Ati-Xpert video card with Plan 9. Should I
get PCI or AGP?
The Ati Mach64 is 2mb video card?
James
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:58:14 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:58:14 GMT
Subject: [9fans] troubles: nevermind
Message-ID: <8v6ru9$3qt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
I would have answered my own post about the Matrox video card not
working but it hasn't appeared yet. I changed my plan9.ini to 800x600
like the default on the boot disk creation page, and it worked fine.
Thanks
Justin
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From baruchel.arrobas.libertysurf.point.fr@news4.isdnet.net Mon Nov 20 10:59:00 2000
From: baruchel.arrobas.libertysurf.point.fr@news4.isdnet.net (Thomas Baruchel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:59:00 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Do you think I can use Plan9 ?
Message-ID: <8v9ad2$25ad$2@news4.isdnet.net>
Brest, le dimanche 19 novembre
Hi, I'm a linux man (tired of linux). I have an old computer and I'm
wondering what I can put in it. I tried several versions of Linux, Minix,
Minix-VMD.
I have 8Mo RAM, and two hard disks: 240Mo + 204Mo + 486processor
For a poetical reason, I think of putting Plan9 in it...
(why? well, because I like sam the editor...)
Do you think it's a good idea ?
I downloaded the install floppy, and it didn't work! I don't remember why, but
if you think it should work, I can try again.
I also have a CD-ROM (is there a way of getting the CD distribution ?)
Is there a way of putting a small part of Plan 9 (like I can do with
Linux: I only use three tools: groff, ghostview, and an editor).
I don't know anything else about Plan9 (except that I really like SAM :-)
--
.~. Thomas Baruchel
/V\ baruchel@libertysurf.fr
// \\ Brest
/( )\ FRANCE
^`~'^
From steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Mon Nov 20 11:08:40 2000
From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com (steve.simon@snellwilcox.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:08:40 +0000
Subject: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 on notebooks
Message-ID: <2240966830@snellwilcox.com>
I use an NEC Versa SX (listed in the HCL) at 1024x768
which runs out of the box beautifully.
-Steve
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 11:34:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:34:35 0000
Subject: [9fans] Matrox cards - state of the nation
Message-ID:
Following the sudden resumption of mail to news service,
several emails have appeared about Matrox Millenium and
G series cards. Rather than reply individually, I'll summarise.
The status of the release code is as follows:
1. I have a Millenium and a Millenium II (both PCI). These both
work. There is a possibility that the NOBIOS option in pc/pci.c
might be needed on certain machines, which hints at a small
initialisation problem, but otherwise fine.
2. Only 8 bits per pixel works.
3. Cards with daughterboard memory upgrades are unproven.
They may well work, but I have no means to test.
4. You CANNOT persuade a G series card to work by just
playing with /lib/vgadb. The RAMDACs are different.
I have some improved code with
1. G series support. It work on a G400 MAX 32mb. Can't
promise the others. There are changes to aux/vga,
lib/vgadb, and 9/pc
2. Hardware acceleration. This works like a dream for the
Millenium and Millenium II, but severely slows down (!)
the G400, and corrupts the screen. More work required
here clearly. However, the acceleration is all that the
reputation of Matrox says.
If anyone with the ability to recompile the kernel wants
to do some testing, let me know.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 13:24:48 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:24:48 +0100
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: , <01db01c04e8d$692a29a0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <3A14156C.952BDDA2@arl.army.mil>
Message-ID: <009201c052f5$420a2480$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Douglas A. Gwyn
> Boyd Roberts wrote:
> > here we go. the kernel closes the fd's as a part of exit,
> > like td said.
>
> Further, upon return from main(), all the exit() actions
> are performed.
>
> _exit(), on the other hand, does not perform any stdio.
> (Its main use is in a child branch of a fork.)
absolutely correct.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 15:25:10 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:25:10 0000
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
Message-ID: <20001120142304.0AD6B199D5@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-stdzsrugwcppxrixpqxkzcaiid
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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however, it's worth remembering, that in the Unix i remember at any
rate, _exit() is not always invoked on program exit. it isn't invoked
if the program dies from a signal, for instance.
i've always presumed that the final close of fds is done when their
refcount drops to zero, i.e. when the exited process's file table is
cleared up by the kernel.
so the actual _?exit() system calls are not that crucial to the issue
of file closing under AFS. stdio is a different matter, of course.
but i'm not entirely sure whether we're on topic here... :-)
cheers,
rog.
--upas-stdzsrugwcppxrixpqxkzcaiid
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
List-Archive:
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:24:48 +0100
From: Douglas A. Gwyn
> Boyd Roberts wrote:
> > here we go. the kernel closes the fd's as a part of exit,
> > like td said.
>
> Further, upon return from main(), all the exit() actions
> are performed.
>
> _exit(), on the other hand, does not perform any stdio.
> (Its main use is in a child branch of a fork.)
absolutely correct.
--upas-stdzsrugwcppxrixpqxkzcaiid--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 16:56:10 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Scott Schwartz)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:56:10 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Plaen Nien with 16 MB.
In-Reply-To: Message from Alt
of "Mon, 20 Nov 2000 10:56:07 GMT." <3A132470.FBC642B8@card.kyiv.net>
Message-ID: <20001120165610.23183.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu>
| Is it possible to run plan 9 at machine with16 mb.
| It refuse to be runned at 16 but there is written that it could work at
| 16 like terminal.
I ran the Second Edition ran in 16MB for a while. On the other hand,
you really want more in a terminal, because the window system is in-kernel
and needs lots of ram for windows.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 17:18:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Mike Fletcher)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:18:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [9fans] drawterm via ssh
In-Reply-To: <20001120165610.23183.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID:
I tried to post this to comp.os.plan9, but it didn't make it.
I have Plan9 (rel3) running on a Pentium as a cpu and auth
server. Ssh works fine as client and server between the Plan9
system and my SPARCstation running Solaris 8.
I compiled drawterm on the SPARC and it works fine as well.
Now how do I persuade the ssh server on Plan9 to forward the
drawterm connection through the secure channel? There doesn't
seem to be a dedicated port to forward - or am I missing some-
thing fundamental here?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
-Mike Fletcher
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 19:22:31 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:22:31 -0500
Subject: [9fans] drawterm via ssh
Message-ID: <20001120192247.B2DE7199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
The Plan 9 ssh server doesn't do any port forwarding.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 20:48:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:48:57 -0500
Subject: [9fans] memory
Message-ID: <20001120204900.B527B199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
The install, because it keeps the file system
in RAM, requires 32MB. I've done an install on a 32MB
system and I was using pretty much all the memory.
As others have pointed out, that's mainly because
the image data is all kept in kernel memory, and the
compressed file system on the floppy is expanded
and kept in memory while being accessed.
You could run a simple 640x480x8 terminal with
16MB, but I'm not sure how much can be done with
only 8MB.
The ATI video cards come with a wide range of
memory depending mainly on the age of the card.
Others have reported trying the Xpert98 but I don't
remember whether the reports were good or bad.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 21:11:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (David Gordon Hogan)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:11:57 -0500
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
Message-ID: <20001120211159.620C8199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
gshubin@sonic.net writes:
> > there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> > they won't say what it is.
> >
>
> It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.
Actually, no it doesn't mean that.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 21:04:28 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:04:28 +0100
Subject: [9fans] memory
References: <20001120204900.B527B199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <014801c05335$7ab617e0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Russ Cox
> You could run a simple 640x480x8 terminal with
> 16MB, but I'm not sure how much can be done with
> only 8MB.
i got the 2nd release installed wih 4mb, but i
had to do it in stages; the uncompression just
took the machine out. it did it piecemeal.
once i'd done it 4Mb was just not enough. you
could get 8 1/2, sam and maybe a window or two.
finally it would choke.
8Mb would have been better, but i reckon 16Mb
would have been the minimum.
From cnielsen@pobox.com Mon Nov 20 21:37:59 2000
From: cnielsen@pobox.com (Christopher Nielsen)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:37:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] FreeBSD IL and 9P patches
In-Reply-To: <8utf8q$27ul$1@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Wilhelm B. Kloke wrote:
> Very good. I would appreciate, if you announce a place
> where to find your work, in case the commit procedure
> lasts longer. BTW. Are there chances that the patches
> apply to 4.0 or do I have to upgrade first?
I will announce where to retrieve the patches as soon as
I've completed and tested them.
My first priority is to get them updated for -current, but I
will also work on getting them merged into -stable.
--
Christopher Nielsen
cnielsen@pobox.com
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Mon Nov 20 21:49:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Mike Haertel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:49:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [9fans] memory
In-Reply-To: <20001120204900.B527B199F0@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <200011202149.eAKLncI15212@ducky.net>
>The ATI video cards come with a wide range of
>memory depending mainly on the age of the card.
>Others have reported trying the Xpert98 but I don't
>remember whether the reports were good or bad.
I have Xpert 98's (both AGP and PCI) and they
work really well.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 09:38:01 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:38:01 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Do you think I can use Plan9 ?
References: <8v9ad2$25ad$2@news4.isdnet.net>
Message-ID: <8vd8vf$u9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
You can download a version of Sam editor for MSWindows from
ftp://netlib.bell-labs.com/netlib/research/sam.exe .
For installation of Plan 9 you will need (download):
1) an image of install floppy
2) distribution file - plan9.9gz (cca 57MB)
You can install it on standalone PC. But full Plan 9 OS runs on minimal
3 PCs - fileserver, cpuserver and terminal.
Read docs about required hardware configuration. (I think you will need
more than 8MB RAM)
vecera
> Hi, I'm a linux man (tired of linux). I have an old computer and I'm
> wondering what I can put in it. I tried several versions of Linux,
Minix,
> Minix-VMD.
> I have 8Mo RAM, and two hard disks: 240Mo + 204Mo + 486processor
> For a poetical reason, I think of putting Plan9 in it...
> (why? well, because I like sam the editor...)
> Do you think it's a good idea ?
> I downloaded the install floppy, and it didn't work! I don't remember
why, but
> if you think it should work, I can try again.
> I also have a CD-ROM (is there a way of getting the CD distribution ?)
> Is there a way of putting a small part of Plan 9 (like I can do with
> Linux: I only use three tools: groff, ghostview, and an editor).
> I don't know anything else about Plan9 (except that I really like SAM
:-)
>
> --
> .~. Thomas Baruchel
> /V\ baruchel@libertysurf.fr
> // \\ Brest
> /( )\ FRANCE
> ^`~'^
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 09:37:48 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:37:48 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Ati Xpert 98 Video card
References: <%yyR5.149579$ib7.19937854@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Message-ID: <8vd7jt$teg$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
> I should have no problem using a Ati-Xpert video card with Plan 9.
Should I
> get PCI or AGP?
> The Ati Mach64 is 2mb video card?
> James
I had another Mach64 video card - ATI 3D Charger on AGP with 8 MB RAM.
But with this card I had problems - it produced some flickers on screen.
Later I have tryed another ATI 3D Charger on AGP with 4 MB RAM.
The screen looks better but some noise remain. I dodn't know why...
But autors say the ATI cards have the best support.(?)
vecera
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 09:37:19 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (James)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:37:19 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Do you think I can use Plan9 ?
References: <8v9ad2$25ad$2@news4.isdnet.net>
Message-ID:
I tried to put Plan 9 on a P 100, with 16mb memory. It told me I had no
physical memory. Do to some hardware restrictions that I ran into (from old
P 100Mhz to new Geforce Video Cards) It was easier for me to build a Plan 9
box, now that would be poetical and artful. Compuvest1.com has the best Plan
9 compatible parts that I found and real cheap too, even Mach64 videocards.
Good Luck
James
"Thomas Baruchel" wrote in message
news:8v9ad2$25ad$2@news4.isdnet.net...
> Brest, le dimanche 19 novembre
>
> Hi, I'm a linux man (tired of linux). I have an old computer and I'm
> wondering what I can put in it. I tried several versions of Linux, Minix,
> Minix-VMD.
> I have 8Mo RAM, and two hard disks: 240Mo + 204Mo + 486processor
> For a poetical reason, I think of putting Plan9 in it...
> (why? well, because I like sam the editor...)
> Do you think it's a good idea ?
> I downloaded the install floppy, and it didn't work! I don't remember why,
but
> if you think it should work, I can try again.
> I also have a CD-ROM (is there a way of getting the CD distribution ?)
> Is there a way of putting a small part of Plan 9 (like I can do with
> Linux: I only use three tools: groff, ghostview, and an editor).
> I don't know anything else about Plan9 (except that I really like SAM :-)
>
> --
> .~. Thomas Baruchel
> /V\ baruchel@libertysurf.fr
> // \\ Brest
> /( )\ FRANCE
> ^`~'^
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 09:37:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Greg Shubin)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:37:35 GMT
Subject: [9fans] connecting to ISP with PAP?
References: <20001120211159.620C8199EB@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A19B270.624F11B@sonic.net>
David Gordon Hogan wrote:
> gshubin@sonic.net writes:
> > > there is a Short Term Facilities Issue with my new line, but
> > > they won't say what it is.
> > >
> >
> > It means they haven't built the CO within 17kft of your location.
>
> Actually, no it doesn't mean that.
For the sense-of-humor impaired and/or phone company employees, here are
some smileys. Insert as needed.
:-) :-) :-) :-) :) :) :) :) .
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 12:13:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:13:36 GMT
Subject: [9fans] wanted icon "Powered by Plan 9"
Message-ID: <8vdok1$a0t$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Hi,
I play with HTML on my home site and I would like to place there icon
"Powered by Plan 9". Is any on the world?
vecera
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 13:28:57 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:28:57 -0500
Subject: [9fans] memory
Message-ID: <20001121132859.17D13199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-kwelspvbqvnazfwqvgicyftsho
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I was running an 8MB system until 6 months ago. However, it
would go into swap hell if I tried to make kernels
locally. It was only usable because I did most things were
done on a cpu server.
With 16mb, you can still run bigger screens than 640x480x8.
at 16MB on a terminal the kernel gives 60% of the memory to
the kernel. You can make it more still if you want by
including in plan9.ini
*kernelpercent=90
for example, to get 90%. Of course, that leaves precious little
for processes.
--upas-kwelspvbqvnazfwqvgicyftsho
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
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From: "Russ Cox"
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Subject: [9fans] memory
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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:48:57 -0500
The install, because it keeps the file system
in RAM, requires 32MB. I've done an install on a 32MB
system and I was using pretty much all the memory.
As others have pointed out, that's mainly because
the image data is all kept in kernel memory, and the
compressed file system on the floppy is expanded
and kept in memory while being accessed.
You could run a simple 640x480x8 terminal with
16MB, but I'm not sure how much can be done with
only 8MB.
The ATI video cards come with a wide range of
memory depending mainly on the age of the card.
Others have reported trying the Xpert98 but I don't
remember whether the reports were good or bad.
Russ
--upas-kwelspvbqvnazfwqvgicyftsho--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 15:46:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:46:15 0000
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
Message-ID: <20001121144412.239EB199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
i came across a few problems with upas/marshal; i'm afraid i haven't
got time to fix all of them right now.
most minor problem is that in scanning for 8 bit characters, a
"Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit" header can be output several times.
that's fixed easily with:
diff /n/dump/2000/1121/sys/src/cmd/upas/ned/marshal.c marshal.c
370c370
< for(;;){
---
> while (docontenttype){
385c385
< if(*p++ & 0x80){
---
> if(*p++ & 0x80 && docontenttype){
(which also saves some buffer space on files containing lots of utf)
the other problem is that text attachments containing 8 bit utf don't
propagate the "Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit" into the main header.
fixing this would require reading all the attachments before spitting
out the principal header, which is not currently done.
the alternative (which would likely be preferable, as it would make
the resulting email smtp compatible) would be to encode any 8-bit
plain text attachments in quoted-printable. then i might be able to
see the utf chars sent to 9fans!
one last thing:
diff /n/dump/2000/1121/sys/src/cmd/file.c file.c
345c345
< if (nbuf < 100)
---
> if (nbuf < 100 && !mime)
which stops "file -m" printing two type lines for short files.
cheers,
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 15:20:34 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:20:34 +0100
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
References: <20001121144412.239EB199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <021801c053ce$98a6a3c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
>
> the other problem is that text attachments containing 8 bit utf don't
> propagate the "Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit" into the main header.
> fixing this would require reading all the attachments before spitting
> out the principal header, which is not currently done.
>
i reckon that a lot of careful thought would be required before
stepping into that mimefield [sic].
by the end of the 4th mime doc either the authors had totally
lost it, you have totally lost it or a combination of both.
at least with text messages from plan 9 they are obviously
8bit, 'cos it's UTF. but when you talk smtp you then have to
decide on whether conversion is required depending on who
you're talking to at the other end.
it's a very ugly problem. attatchments complicate it no end.
i agree with what Bill McLean, director of the AIM-9 sidewinder
project said:
it is easy to build something that is complicated but
it is hard to build something so that it's simple
that may not be exact.
during the trials between the sidewinder and what was to
become the AIM-54 phoenix, the phoenix team had a hanger
full of test equipment. when asked for what sort of test
equipment the sidewinder team required the reply was:
oh, a flashlight and a screwdriver
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 15:40:28 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:40:28 -0500
Subject: [9fans] Re: Ati Xpert 98 Video card
Message-ID: <20001121154029.C4DA4199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
flickers on the screen can be fixed by trying
lower resolutions or refresh rates. it really
means that we're not setting the memory parameters
correctly, but the easiest work-around is to not
push the memory so hard.
vga is a very hard problem. oddly enough the
ati cards do have the best support, because we have
the most complete documentation for them. but
even that's not everything we need to know.
the cards with the "best support" are usually
the cards with the most recently written driver,
since the contemporary cards have not had a chance
to diverge from what was used to write the driver.
the main problem is that vendors think it's
sufficient to release a windows driver rather
than real documentation.
if you pick a random card and hope it
will work, your chances are best if that vendor
is ati. that said, the savage4-based cards
seem to be working quite nicely.
i have a stalled vga rewrite that addresses a
few problems and adds some control of various
common features found on laptops, but
getting vgas working is an inherently ad hoc
process and no amount of rewriting will get rid
of that aspect completely.
russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 16:54:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:54:15 0000
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
Message-ID: <20001121155207.150A4199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
boyd wrote:
> by the end of the 4th mime doc either the authors had totally
> lost it, you have totally lost it or a combination of both.
i agree.
i'm very close to losing it totally today.
... (muffled shrieks) ...
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 16:04:59 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:04:59 GMT
Subject: [9fans] AFS-client for Plan9 - ?
References: <20001120142304.0AD6B199D5@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A1A8F29.B3857BB0@arl.army.mil>
rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> however, it's worth remembering, that in the Unix i remember at any
> rate, _exit() is not always invoked on program exit. it isn't invoked
> if the program dies from a signal, for instance.
Right; upon abnormal termination (what POSIX terms "termination
with actions" as I recall), the application process has lost
control, so only the kernel clean-up actions can be performed
(which include closing open FDs, as others have remarked).
> i've always presumed that the final close of fds is done when their
> refcount drops to zero, i.e. when the exited process's file table is
> cleared up by the kernel.
It depends on the kernel (there might be process-owned locks to
release, for example), but that's the roght general idea.
Closing a "file" decrements its in-use count and only when that
count goes to zero is the "real" close function performed, e.g.
device driver drops READY etc.
> so the actual _?exit() system calls are not that crucial to the issue
> of file closing under AFS. stdio is a different matter, of course.
Yes, sorry if I digressed.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 16:04:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:04:40 GMT
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
References: <20001118234355.9B81A199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A1A8DF4.C2A6B2FB@arl.army.mil>
Russ Cox wrote:
> cl and ml are the microsoft visual c/c++ compiler/linker
> and presumably the assembler/linker. cl stands for
> compile and/or link.
I don't think the assembler/linker are included in recent
Visual C++, but they are somewhere among the MSDN disks.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:12:11 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:12:11 +0100
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
References: <20001118234355.9B81A199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu> <3A1A8DF4.C2A6B2FB@arl.army.mil>
Message-ID: <022a01c053de$2fdafde0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
----- Original Message -----
> Russ Cox wrote:
> > cl and ml are the microsoft visual c/c++ compiler/linker
> > and presumably the assembler/linker. cl stands for
> > compile and/or link.
>
> I don't think the assembler/linker are included in recent
> Visual C++, but they are somewhere among the MSDN disks.
yes, but this is not my real problem. the only version
of mk i see is a windows binary and the C source, but
i want to write limbo on inferno, or compile bits of the
source tree. unless i'm missing something, mk.dis does
not exist.
yes have have thought of writing a function that writes
a bat file that runs mk -n, using 'os' and then feeds it
into a shell. this is gross.
maybe this cold has fried all my neurons or some devious
cross compiling was done to create the cd.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 16:05:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Douglas A. Gwyn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 16:05:15 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Ati Xpert 98 Video card
References: <%yyR5.149579$ib7.19937854@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com>
Message-ID: <3A1A9060.49C5691E@arl.army.mil>
James wrote:
> I should have no problem using a Ati-Xpert video card with Plan 9. Should I
> get PCI or AGP?
> The Ati Mach64 is 2mb video card?
I have gotten good results from the Xpert-98 (3D RAGE PRO version).
Xpert-128 (RAGE-128) however did not work right last time I tried it.
MACH64 denotes a family of chips, which can be used with various
amounts of memory (the one I used to have was 4MB).
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:30:10 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:30:10 -0500
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
Message-ID: <20001121173012.12C22199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I originally just said it was UTF-8 and 8bit encoding but backed off because
lots of mailers threw their hands up at UTF-8. Perhaps I should have kept the
8bit part though. I'll try changing it to always say
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
in the main header and see how it goes.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:31:12 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:31:12 -0500
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
Message-ID: <20001121173113.E99FB199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Sorry about that last message... I can't cut and paste anymore, too many
neurons gone. I meant:
I'll try changing it to always say
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
in the main header and see how it goes.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:33:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:33:33 GMT
Subject: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 on notebooks
References:
Message-ID: <86lmudxmp7.fsf@gollum.esys.ca>
>>>>> "John" == John A Murdie writes:
John> Thanks again to the individuals who mailed me with useful
John> information. I was a little surprised to hear that 800x600
John> display resolution was so common. Can anyone tell me which
John> of the notebooks which will run Plan 9 `out of the box' (or
John> for which diffs are available) will support 1024x768?
The Dell Inspiron 7000 works at 1024x768. You have to select the
"Dell Cptxxx" entry (can't remember the exact modem number) on
the boot floppy creation webpage to get the correct settings in
plan9.ini.
--lyndon
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:40:27 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:40:27 -0500
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
Message-ID: <20001121174032.0F11F199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
//the only version of mk i see is a windows binary and
//the C source, but i want to write limbo on inferno, or
//compile bits of the source tree. unless i'm missing
//something, mk.dis does not exist.
nope, you're right: there is no mk.[b|dis]. there are two
building options: 1) use mk on the underlying OS (outside
of Inferno) with that OS's "native" mk and limbo compiler
2) use mash and its make functionality. option 2 may be of
limited life, however, as VN has said mash may not be long
for their distribution. i'm wondering if they have any
alternative in the works. option 1 is the standard on all
the Inferno development efforts i've seen.
-Îą.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 18:47:45 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:47:45 0000
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
Message-ID: <20001121174543.7C373199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> I'll try changing it to always say
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> in the main header and see how it goes.
actually, that's the default anyway. and even if it wasn't, it
wouldn't really help, as that header would be lying if utf8 characters
were included.
the whole thing's a crock of shit, but if it's to be a working crock
of shit i can't really see much alternative to converting utf8
plain/text attachments to quoted-printable.
of course, then there's the issue of utf8 in header lines. =?.....?=,
rfc2047, aargh.
as you might be able to tell, i've had some dealings with
this stuff recently, hence i was plundering upas for ideas
on "nice" ways of dealing with the crud, hence i realised these
problems...
cheers,
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:47:51 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Alex Bochannek)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:47:51 -0800
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:31:12 EST."
<20001121173113.E99FB199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <200011211747.JAA22290@volition.org>
Keep in mind that 8bit content-transfer-encoding is MTA specific. If
your MTA supports ESMTP, it works fine, but otherwise, that's what
transfer encodings like quoted-printable[1] or base64 are for. See
also UTR #17 at http://www.unicode.org/unicode/reports/tr17/
Alex.
[1] 8bit character encoding schemes like UTF-8 (nee UTF-2) for example
lend themselves nicely to quoted-printable since they preserve the
7bit ASCII character encoding.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:48:29 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:48:29 +0100
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
References: <20001121174032.0F11F199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <024001c053e3$42161940$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> 2) use mash and its make functionality. option 2 may be of
> limited life, however, as VN has said mash may not be long
> for their distribution.
i haven't looked at the mk extensions to mash even though
the author is a mate of mine and i was staying with him when
he wrote it! he's not even sure what state the vita mash is in.
i feel a hideous kludge comming on...
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 17:59:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Jean Mehat)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:59:38 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [9fans] password on cpu and file server
Message-ID: <200011211759.eALHxct05496@hon.ai.univ-paris8.fr>
THe v3 file server and cpu server don't ask for the password before
entering the command mode (or running rc) on my machines. Is it the
normal behaviour for Plan 9 version 3? What is the rationale behind
this?
jm
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 19:07:33 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:07:33 0000
Subject: [9fans] vito nuova inferno on 98
Message-ID: <20001121180525.482BE199E3@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> yes, but this is not my real problem. the only version
> of mk i see is a windows binary and the C source, but
> i want to write limbo on inferno, or compile bits of the
> source tree. unless i'm missing something, mk.dis does
> not exist.
you're right, mk.dis doesn't exist. it's on the cards to rectify this
in some way, whether it's by cloning mk, or putting mash-like
functionality into inferno sh, or whatever... it will happen, but
we're snowed under for the time being, and i think there are higher
immediate priorities (charles might correct me).
the thing is that one doesn't tend to feel the lack of mk too much when
developing limbo under inferno, as there's no link stage,
so usually just a {limbo -g *.b; cp *.dis /dis} suffices.
we don't plan on rewriting the C compilers in Limbo anytime
soon, and that's where mk becomes invaluable. so if you're
rebuilding emu or a native kernel, you'll be forced out
into your host environment for the forseeable future
(oscmd aside)
if you really felt the lack, you could use mash, or
write a little sh script:
#!/dis/sh
load std regex
fn depend {
# usage depend source target recipe args...
(src targ recipe) := $*
recent:=${hd `{ls -t $targ $src >[2] /dev/null}}
if {~ $recent $src} {
echo $recipe
$recipe
}
}
for i in *.b {
targ := ${re s '(.*)\.b$' '\1.dis' $i}
depend $i $targ {
limbo -g $*
} $i
}
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 18:23:42 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:23:42 +0100
Subject: [9fans] problems with marshal
References: <20001121174543.7C373199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <024a01c053e8$2e14b140$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
>
> the whole thing's a crock of shit, but if it's to be a working crock
> of shit i can't really see much alternative to converting utf8
> plain/text attachments to quoted-printable.
>
it is a _very nasty_ problem indeed.
being in france i've had to deal with ISO Latin 1 for a long
time. oh, god, how many arguments have i had over this.
> of course, then there's the issue of utf8 in header lines. =?.....?=,
> rfc2047, aargh.
read that one too.
i had to do some corporate mail snooping so that's why
understand the horror of it all. i understand the horror,
but not all of MIME. it's 150 pages of pure trash.
saying it's 8bit doesn't really help 'cos it's a 7 bit
transport unless it's ESMTP _and_ the ESMTP implementation
returns 8BITMIME as one of the supported options (IIRC).
doesn't 7 bit come from the IMPs?
a long time ago i suggested to paul vixie just to add
a new SMTP command 'will you do 8 bit transport'? if
the response was no the message would be returned. this
was based on the assumption that all messages potentially
had 8 bit chars and no analysis of the message body.
he said that MIME would take care of all of that. i
didn't agree. even in '92 i think it was pretty safe
to say that most/all? transports were 8 bit.
i wanted to force people who had 7 bit transports to
chuck 'em, if such things still existed.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 19:37:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:37:36 -0500
Subject: [9fans] mime
Message-ID: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
If I were willing to do it correctly, I should have the
smtp program (my only MTA) determine the transfer-encoding
and not marshal. It only needs to convert if it can't get
an esmtp conection.
Seriously though. What brain damaged piece of dog
excrement program would throw away the 8th bit of every
byte in today's world? Smtp's requirement for
7 bit clean was acknowledgement of systems of the time
that really did push messages across serial lines with
parity and/or used the 8th bit in mail files as a signalling
channel. However, I really don't know of any such these
days. Every smtp I call up seems perfectly happy to pass
on all 8 bits despite what the RFC says.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 20:04:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:04:40 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <027401c053f6$48b42680$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> Seriously though. What brain damaged piece of dog
> excrement program would throw away the 8th bit of every
> byte in today's world?
not even sendmail, which qualifies, smashes the 8th bit
off on the receive side. on the send side it does if
the mailer flag 7 is used. mailer flag 9 (undocumented)
turns whatever encoding you've got back into an 8 bit
stream (in essense).
i have seen lotus notes V4? ack an EHLO but refuse to
offer 8BITMIME -- useless.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 22:00:15 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Russ Cox)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:00:15 -0500
Subject: [9fans] password on cpu and file server
Message-ID: <20001121220018.7BC6A199F1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
I don't know why the cpu servers don't ask
by default anymore. My best guess would be
that when bootstrapping the system before
authentication, it got commented out and
never put back because no one wanted it.
Uncomment the call to pass(key) in
/sys/src/cmd/init.c and mk init.install if
you want it. We do have one system that
runs a modified init with this change, but
it's the exception.
Russ
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 23:25:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 18:25:05 -0500
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00de01c05412$4832b0c0$97036887@cs.belllabs.com>
> Seriously though. What brain damaged piece of dog
> excrement program would throw away the 8th bit of every
> byte in today's world? Smtp's requirement for
> 7 bit clean was acknowledgement of systems of the time
> that really did push messages across serial lines with
> parity and/or used the 8th bit in mail files as a signalling
> channel. However, I really don't know of any such these
> days. Every smtp I call up seems perfectly happy to pass
> on all 8 bits despite what the RFC says.
Brian Ried is the source of the brain damage. Maybe it's
Brian damage. He insisted on making the DEC gateways
clear the 8th bit in a stupefying bid to make everyone
honest. He thought, I guess, that the computing world
didn't have enough complexity yet. I hope he's happy
now.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 23:31:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 00:31:43 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu> <00de01c05412$4832b0c0$97036887@cs.belllabs.com>
Message-ID: <028501c05413$3552bb20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: rob pike
>
> Brian Ried is the source of the brain damage. Maybe it's
> Brian damage. He insisted on making the DEC gateways
> clear the 8th bit in a stupefying bid to make everyone
> honest.
i could believe he would do that but back while paul
vixie was with digital (till '93 or so) KJS didn't
clear the 8th bit on input.
then again, you could be talking about an earlier
or later time and over the past few years i've seen
him lose his mind. there is one story that says he'd
smear fertiliser on his hands before flying to trigger
nitrate sniffers.
i could have asked the question on a list he's on but
i got myself kicked off it 'cos i wouldn't apologise
for a flame i sent -- as if no flames were ever sent
to this list.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 06:01:07 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (rob pike)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 01:01:07 -0500
Subject: [9fans] rio
Message-ID: <20001122060111.27A1B199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Rookie error in rio. In /sys/src/cmd/rio/wind.c,
change the line
memmove(hidden+i, hidden+i+1, nhidden-i);
to
memmove(hidden+i, hidden+i+1, (nhidden-i)*sizeof(hidden[0]));
and a stupid bug will vanish. Astonishing it's lived
this long.
-rob
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 06:21:44 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (George Michaelson)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:21:44 +1000
Subject: [9fans] pdp8 lives!!
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Nov 2000 01:01:07 EST."
<20001122060111.27A1B199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <19508.974874104@dstc.edu.au>
http://www.spies.com/~dgc/pdp8x/
surely not beyond the capabilities of a plan-9er to port...
Is there an Edgar Allan P(lan9) O(n) E(verything) corner somewhere?
-George
--
George Michaelson | DSTC Pty Ltd
Email: ggm@dstc.edu.au | University of Qld 4072
Phone: +61 7 3365 4310 | Australia
Fax: +61 7 3365 4311 | http://www.dstc.edu.au
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Tue Nov 21 23:07:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Steve Kilbane)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:07:36 +0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:04:40 +0100."
<027401c053f6$48b42680$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <200011212307.XAA17787@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Boyd:
> i have seen lotus notes V4? ack an EHLO but refuse to
> offer 8BITMIME -- useless.
Nooo, not Notes - don't go there, please!
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 10:31:00 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (matt)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:31:00 -0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu> <00de01c05412$4832b0c0$97036887@cs.belllabs.com> <028501c05413$3552bb20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <00b901c0546f$4eda3440$0301a8c0@freeze>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Boyd Roberts"
> i could have asked the question on a list he's on but
> i got myself kicked off it 'cos i wouldn't apologise
> for a flame i sent -- as if no flames were ever sent
> to this list.
I'm shocked Boyd, that really doesn't sound like you at all, soembody really
must've wound you up for you to step out of character so.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 10:59:36 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:59:36 0000
Subject: [9fans] wanted icon "Powered by Plan 9"
Message-ID: <20001122105907.BC32A199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-gjypzdvespblzmupnxuwhjhrlz
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
i'd display glenda. that's the universal symbol for plan 9.
--upas-gjypzdvespblzmupnxuwhjhrlz
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: vecera@writeme.com
Message-ID: <8vdok1$a0t$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Subject: [9fans] wanted icon "Powered by Plan 9"
Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu
Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu
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List-Id: Fans of the O/S Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu>
List-Archive:
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:13:36 GMT
Hi,
I play with HTML on my home site and I would like to place there icon
"Powered by Plan 9". Is any on the world?
vecera
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
--upas-gjypzdvespblzmupnxuwhjhrlz--
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 13:12:38 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 13:12:38 0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
Message-ID: <20001122121028.38BD3199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> What brain damaged piece of dog
> excrement program would throw away the 8th bit of every
> byte in today's world?
annoying thing is that you don't know what the 8th bit means until
you've parsed the Content-transfer-encoding header. it would be nice
if we could convert the whole thing from utf initially, but some
people have a habit of sending latin1 which of course translates as
lots of broken utf runes (and presumably utf translates as broken
latin1 on many machines).
i don't think that the header is allowed 8 bit stuff no matter what.
is the idea that if we just send utf regardless, sooner or later
mailers will assume that 8bit chars in mail headers are utf?
i might hack up a version of marshal that conforms to the standards,
at least superficially. it would be nice to be able to send mail that
people on other platforms could read. we're not so far away.
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 13:50:53 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:50:53 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <200011212307.XAA17787@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000d01c0548b$3b6165c0$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: Steve Kilbane
> Boyd:
> > i have seen lotus notes V4? ack an EHLO but refuse to
> > offer 8BITMIME -- useless.
>
> Nooo, not Notes - don't go there, please!
how do you think i picked up all this mime knowledge?
because of notes' appalling implementation of [e]smtp.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 14:00:35 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:00:35 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu> <00de01c05412$4832b0c0$97036887@cs.belllabs.com> <028501c05413$3552bb20$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr> <00b901c0546f$4eda3440$0301a8c0@freeze>
Message-ID: <001601c0548c$9656cf00$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: matt
> I'm shocked Boyd, that really doesn't sound like you at all, soembody really
> must've wound you up for you to step out of character so.
yeah, yeah, yeah... :-)
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 14:21:54 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:21:54 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001122121028.38BD3199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <002701c0548f$906b9500$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> ...it would be nice
> if we could convert the whole thing from utf initially, but some
> people have a habit of sending latin1 which of course translates as
> lots of broken utf runes (and presumably utf translates as broken
> latin1 on many machines).
that's how it goes. je déconne pas...
did you see the e acute?
> i don't think that the header is allowed 8 bit stuff no matter what.
yes, hence that hideous ?...? encoding crap.
> is the idea that if we just send utf regardless, sooner or later
> mailers will assume that 8bit chars in mail headers are utf?
bit of a circular problem; the headers specify the encoding
which you don't know until you've read the headers. it's
been hard enough to get 1 extra bit through [the 8th bit]
without stomping all over rfc 822.
> i might hack up a version of marshal that conforms to the standards,
> at least superficially. it would be nice to be able to send mail that
> people on other platforms could read. we're not so far away.
i'm not sure you want to do that. it's a mimefield.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:46:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:46:05 0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
Message-ID: <20001122144404.CE0CB199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
> that's how it goes. je dconne pas...
>
> did you see the e acute?
nope.
that's the problem. somewhere a gateway stripped out 'invalid' chars
(didn't even turn the e-acute into an 'i' which is what i would have
expected)
> i'm not sure you want to do that. it's a mimefield.
yeah, but we're already neck deep in the big muddy.
so the damn fool might might as well keep yellin' to push on.
rog.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 14:53:07 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:53:07 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001121193744.53C18199F7@mail.cse.psu.edu> <00de01c05412$4832b0c0$97036887@cs.belllabs.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c05493$ecc91260$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From: rob pike
>
> Brian Ried is the source of the brain damage...
i've asked another source for confirmation. i'd
forgotten that he's not on said list either. he
asked to be removed.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:02:05 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:02:05 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001122144404.CE0CB199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a201c05495$2dc02000$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
>
> yeah, but we're already neck deep in the big muddy.
> so the damn fool might might as well keep yellin' to push on.
yeah, well if i was gonna do it, i'd get the docs
and head off down to The White? Swan and ponder
the problem over several pints of taunton dry
blackthorn. at least it'd kill some of the pain.
it's a horrible problem.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:07:09 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:07:09 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001122144404.CE0CB199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <00bf01c05495$e58c2080$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> yeah, but we're already neck deep in the big muddy.
> so the damn fool might might as well keep yellin' to push on.
maybe you should grab the sendmail code from sendmail.org
to get a quick overview of the full horror. it does a
pretty good job and is fairly clean.
i've read quite a bit of it in the last year :-(
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:19:40 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:19:40 0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
Message-ID: <20001122151546.D88CF199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
>>nope.
>>that's the problem. somewhere a gateway stripped out 'invalid' chars
>>(didn't even turn the e-acute into an 'i' which is what i would have
>>expected)
i think it's demon's smtp mailer that does it. i lose utf-8 in messages sent
between here and home and both are on demon.
220 finch-post-10.mail.demon.net ESMTP Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:12:40 +0000
From ngr@9fs.org Wed Nov 22 15:16:55 2000
From: ngr@9fs.org (Nigel Roles)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:16:55 -0000
Subject: [9fans] mime
In-Reply-To: <00a201c05495$2dc02000$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <3A1BE367.13068.188FE8A@localhost>
> and head off down to The White? Swan and ponder
Black, assuming you're on Peasholme Green.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 15:23:55 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 16:23:55 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001122151546.D88CF199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <017e01c05498$3ab0c780$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
From:
> i think it's demon's smtp mailer that does it. i lose utf-8 in messages sent
> between here and home and both are on demon.
i got it back fine from 9fans.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 20:30:26 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (Boyd Roberts)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:30:26 +0100
Subject: [9fans] mime
References: <20001122151546.D88CF199DC@mail.cse.psu.edu> <017e01c05498$3ab0c780$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
Message-ID: <005401c054c3$0c887800$0ab9c6d4@cybercable.fr>
my reliable source says:
rfc821 says strip the 8th bit.
rfc822 says strip the 8th bit.
to many people, this was inconvenient
so they didn't implement it.
i implemented it.
brian reid supported the decision.
btw: i'm ex-digital [research]. i worked with the gateway guys,
even though i was in the paris research lab.
From 9fans@cse.psu.edu Wed Nov 22 20:49:43 2000
From: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:49:43 -0500
Subject: [9fans] mime
Message-ID: <20001122204959.D4FE0199F5@mail.cse.psu.edu>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-vfoxebhimxfxhxzxmxzfizufbn
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
You don't have to know the transfer encoding when parsing the header.
According to 822,
Each header field can be viewed as a single, logical line of
ASCII characters, comprising a field-name and a field-body.
Of course 821 states
The maximum total length of a text line including the
is 1000 characters (but not counting the leading
dot duplicated for transparency).
To stay consistent with these, headers need to be in the
7bit domain. However, rfc2047 provides the amazing
=?b?gobbledeygook?= syntax to allow non ascii tokens in the
header.
Therefore, the 'Content-Transfer-Encoding: {78}bit' header field
isn't telling you anything per se about the header since the
headers are predefined to be US-ASCII with the =???=
encoding providing an escape in case you want what's there
to be convertible to non-ASCII.
When upas/marshal says that a message (or message portion)
is either 7 or 8 bit, it's just stating a fact. However, if
smtp sees an 8bit message and doesn't get an esmtp connection
to the remote host, it should encode the message (or message
part) in base64 (or quoted printable).
We either have to bite the bullet and encode all 8-bit data
presented to marshal OR change smtp to do the recoding OR
both. However, if we're also willing to relay messages (which
I do) than the marshal change is insufficient since mail may
pass through us from an 8bit to a 7bit channel without passing
marshal.
Therefore, I'm going to make smtp (or a front end to it)
convert and you can all stop your whining.
However, I'm still perplexed as to what to put in the header
of a multipart message. Does the transfer encoding specified
there pertain to the whole message or just to the
nyah nyah, if you only had a MIME mailer you wouldn't see this
message that starts every multipart message?
--upas-vfoxebhimxfxhxzxmxzfizufbn
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Wed Nov 22 07:11:21 EST 2000
Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Wed Nov 22 07:11:20 EST 2000
Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6])
by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP
id 09A2F199E9; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:11:10 -0500 (EST)
Received: from presto.hci-net (unknown [212.240.227.6])
by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 38BD3199E1
for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 07:10:28 -0500 (EST)
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] mime
From: rog@vitanuova.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <20001122121028.38BD3199E1@mail.cse.psu.edu>
Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu
Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu
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