From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 00:49:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 00:49:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5050 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 00:49:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5046 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 00:49:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 00:49:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2928C1999B; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:49:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 02871199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g0VFm8mH012106 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:48:08 +0100 Message-ID: <3C596745.1F2B52E5@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: ideal plan9 laptop References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:48:21 +0100 Russ Cox wrote: > Umm... But you said it had the 'a' bit set. > It only has the 'a' bit set when it is contiguous. chmod +al 9load Leave off the l and you get EPERM. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 00:54:53 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 00:54:53 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5086 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 00:54:52 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5082 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 00:54:52 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 00:54:52 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4D5A419A17; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:54:45 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A265019995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:53:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f8f0c0f74939f656d1051a3376997ef@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: ideal plan9 laptop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:52:52 -0500 > chmod +al 9load > > Leave off the l and you get EPERM. That was intentional, because it's so magical. You're only allowed to make system files (the l bit) contiguous. The whole thing is a crock. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 01:16:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 01:16:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5236 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 01:16:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5232 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 01:16:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 01:16:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B06E5199D5; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:16:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 41869199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g0VGExmH012506 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:14:59 +0100 Message-ID: <3C596D91.259AFC82@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: ideal plan9 laptop References: <1f8f0c0f74939f656d1051a3376997ef@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:15:13 +0100 Russ Cox wrote: > The whole thing is a crock. You said it. In some mad hack last night I put latin-1 support into the kernel so it's a bit less painful to use [weird LCD xga card stuff so revert to raw typing qwerty on azerty at rc and ed]. Last trick was [kfs stuff omitted for brevity]: 9fat: cd /n/9fat > d9load chmod +al d9load cp /sys/src/boot/pc/9load d9load mv 9load o9load mv d9load 9load and reboot. It then goes trying to boot a gz'd kernel [thinking it's a floppy install?] and fails. To fix the mess I boot from: sdCO!9fat!9pcdisk Enough already :( I've already written the Makefile from hell on linux today :( :( From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 05:02:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 05:02:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6565 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 05:02:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6561 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 05:02:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 05:02:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3D871199B6; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:02:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B9FFE1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:01:02 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020131200102.B9FFE1998C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] re: kfs error Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:58:55 0000 i'd backup what remains if possible onto another system before doing much more. you'd need to use check with the options to correct the faults such as dups in the free list, before it's safe to proceed to use what remains, but if it's hanging during check, you'll need to build a kernel elsewhere with a kfs that shows what it's doing to work out why it is hanging. the wrenread i/o error could be because something has got a bad address in it, although the kfs structure tags every block with its type so it's not as easy to get the spectacular corruption of unix systems (where data got interpreted as indirect blocks or vice versa). i've only seen dups when something was shut down without checking, but if your disc were failing anything could happen. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 14:53:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 14:53:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15826 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 14:53:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15821 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 14:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 14:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D8E4F199B7; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:53:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CC409199EE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16WWGL-0004cI-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:29:25 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: steve@fywss.com (Steve Kotsopoulos) Message-ID: Organization: FYWSS Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 from Bell Labs - Frequently Asked Questions [FAQ] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: steve@fywss.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 05:24:52 GMT Archive-name: comp-os/plan9-faq Last-modified: Jan 31, 2002 Posting-Frequency: monthly URL: http://www.fywss.com/plan9/plan9faq.html This document answers frequently asked questions about the third edition of the Plan 9 operating system. The following sections are new or modified recently: * How do I cut and paste with a 2 button mouse? * Are there any Plan 9 user groups? * Is the cross product of two vectors a vector? A hypertext version of this FAQ is available on my Plan 9 web page, URL http://www.fywss.com/plan9/ Other sources of information include the newsgroup comp.os.plan9, which is bidirectionally gatewayed to the 9fans mailing list (browse archives at https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans/ and http://bio.cse.psu.edu/~schwartz/9fans/, or mail 9fans-request@cse.psu.edu to subscribe) and of course the Plan 9 homepage at Bell Labs, URL http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/ If you'd like to discuss the Plan9 license, send mail to plan9-license-discussions@plan9.bell-labs.com. Mailing to this list subscribes you to the list. Please forward any comments or suggestions regarding this FAQ to steve@fywss.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Introduction: * What is Plan 9? * What is in the latest Plan9 release? * What is its relation to other operating systems? * What are its key ideas? * What are the advantages to this approach? Hardware and Software: * What platforms does it run on? * Is anyone working on a port for my system? * Does it support symmetric multiprocessing? * What about applications and tools? * Is there a fortran compiler? * Where can I get more Plan 9 software? * Is it object-oriented? * What about application portability? * What resources does it need? * What GUIs does it support? * How do I cut and paste with a 2 button mouse? * Does Plan 9 have any Unix-like terminal emulators? * What character set does it use? * What about security and user authentication? * How does it communicate with other systems? * Is it suitable for real time control? Installation and Administration: * What PC hardware works well with Plan 9? * How do I Install Plan 9? * It doesn't work for me, how should I troubleshoot? * How do I setup the VGA? * How do I control the services that start at boot time? * How do I setup network services? * How do I shutdown my terminal/cpuserver system? * How do I reboot my system? General Information: * Where did the name come from? * How can I Obtain Plan 9? * How can I get involved? * Where can I get more detailed technical information? * Can I emulate Plan 9 under Unix? * Is the cross product of two vectors a vector? * Are there any Plan 9 user groups? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Introduction: Subject: What is Plan 9? Plan 9 is a new computer operating system and associated utilities. It was built by the Computing Science Research Center of Lucent Technologies Bell Laboratories, the same group that developed Unix, C, and C++. Plan 9 is a distributed system. In the most general configuration, it uses three kinds of components: terminals that sit on users' desks, file servers that store permanent data, and other servers that provide faster CPUs, user authentication, and network gateways. These components are connected by various kinds of networks, including Ethernet, specially-built fiber networks, ordinary modem connections, and ISDN. In typical use, users interact with applications that run either on their terminals or on CPU servers, and the applications get their data from the file servers. The design, however, is highly configurable; it escapes from specific models of networked workstations and central machine service. Subject: What is in the latest Plan9 release? The press release for the third edition of Plan9 is at http://www.bell-labs.com/news/2000/june/7/2.html Among the changes in this release of Plan 9 are a revised kernel, which now has the means to resolve ambiguous file names; an improved graphics environment; an updated command set; and expanded libraries. The system's creators also have installed "plumbing," a new mechanism for passing messages between interactive programs, as part of the user interface. The new release is available for free download under an open source agreement. This is a significant step over previous releases. If you'd like to browse the distribution packages before actually installing, you'll need the tools available at http://www.fywss.com/plan9/unix/ Subject: For History Buffs The first edition of Plan 9 was released in 1993, and was only available to universities. In 1995 the second edition was available for purchase under a shrink-wrap license. The second edition version of this FAQ is archived at http://www.fywss.com/plan9/plan9v2faq.html Subject: What is its relation to other operating systems? Plan 9 is itself an operating system; it doesn't run as an application under another system. It was written from the ground up and doesn't include other people's code. Although the OS's interface to applications is strongly influenced by the approach of Unix, it's not a replacement for Unix; it is a new design. Subject: What are its key ideas? Plan 9 exploits, as far as possible, three basic technical ideas: first, all the system objects present themselves as named files that are manipulated by read/write operations; second, all these files may exist either locally or remotely, and respond to a standard protocol; third, the file system name space - the set of objects visible to a program - is dynamically and individually adjustable for each of the programs running on a particular machine. The first two of these ideas were foreshadowed in Unix and to a lesser extent in other systems, while the third is new: it allows a new engineering solution to the problems of distributed computing and graphics. Plan 9's approach means that application programs don't need to know where they are running; where, and on what kind of machine, to run a Plan 9 program is an economic decision that doesn't affect the construction of the application itself. Subject: What are the advantages to this approach? Plan 9's approach improves generality and modularity of application design by encouraging servers that make any kind of information appear to users and to applications just like collections of ordinary files. Here are a few examples. The Plan 9 window system (called rio) is small and clean in part because its design is centered on providing a virtual keyboard, mouse, and screen to each of the applications running under it, while using the real keyboard, mouse, and screen supplied by the operating system. That is - besides creating, deleting, and arranging the windows themselves - its job is be a server for certain resources used by its clients. As a side benefit, this approach means that the window system can run recursively in one of its windows, or even on another machine. Plan 9 users do Internet FTP by starting a local program that makes all the files on any FTP server (anywhere on the Internet) appear to be local files. Plan 9 PC users with a DOS/Windows partition on their disk can use the files stored there. ISO 9660 CD-ROMs and tar and cpio tapes all behave as if they were native file systems. The complete I/O behavior and performance of any application can be monitored by running it under a server that sees all its interactions. The debugger can examine a program on another machine even if it is running on a different hardware architecture. Another example is the approach to networks. In Plan 9, each network presents itself as a set of files for connection creation, I/O, and control. A common semantic core for the operations is agreed upon, together with a general server for translating human-readable addresses to network-specific ones. As a result, applications don't care which kind of network (TCP/IP, ISDN, modem) they are using. In fact, applications don't even know whether the network they are using is physically attached to the machine the application is running on: the network interface files can be imported from another machine. Hardware and Software: Subject: What platforms does it run on? The Plan 9 kernel and applications are highly portable. Plan 9 runs on four major machine architectures: Intel 386/486/Pentium, MIPS, Alpha, and PowerPC. Data structures and protocols are designed for distributed computing on machines of diverse design. Except for necessarily machine-dependent parts of the kernel, the compilers, and a few libraries, there is a single source representation for everything. To find out whether Plan 9 supports your hardware, read The Various Ports and Supported PC Hardware. Subject: Is anyone working on a port for my system? Perhaps ... let us know. Subject: Does it support symmetric multiprocessing? Yes. The SGI Challenge series of multiprocessors and multi processor Pentiums are supported. Be warned that Intel-based SMP systems are notoriously fickle in conforming to the Multiprocessor Specification and often some head-scratching is required when things don't just work. The system has been run on machines ranging from dual Pentium 90's up to quad Xeon 400's and the 8 processor Pentium Pro Axil system. By default, as it comes out the box, the release has SMP operation disabled by an option in the plan9.ini config file. Subject: What about applications and tools? Plan 9 comes with its own compilers for C and other languages, together with all the commands and program-development tools originally pioneered in the Unix environment. It also provides newly designed software. Acid is a programmable debugger that understands multiple-process programs, and the programs it is debugging may be running on a hardware platform different from its own. Acme is a new user interface in which any word on the screen can be interpreted as a command by clicking on it, and any string can specify a file to be displayed. Subject: Is there a fortran compiler? No, plan9 does not have a fortran compiler. If you have fortran programs you want to run, you can try using the f2c (fortran to C) converter available at ftp://netlib.bell-labs.com/netlib/f2c/ Subject: Where can I get more Plan 9 software? Charles Forsyth has the original and still the longest list of software http://www.caldo.demon.co.uk/plan9/soft/index.html Russ Cox has cd players, mp3 player and a wide variety of other small tools http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~rsc/plan9.html Tad Hunt can help you balance your bank account, boot your laptop and listen to music http://csh-east.org/~tad/plan9/ Nemo (Francisco Ballesteros) has a collection of drivers and utilities http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/usr/nemo/9.html Kenji Arisawa's ftp site ftp://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/ Boyd Roberts writes rc scripts when not ranting on 9fans http://mapage.noos.fr/~repo/ There's a Python port at http://csociety-ftp.ecn.purdue.edu/pub/plan9/python/ The wiki User-contributed Software page is useful too http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/35/index.html Subject: Is it object-oriented? No, not in the conventional sense. It is written in a strict dialect of ISO/ANSI C. In a wider sense, its general design of making all its `objects' look like files to which one talks in a well-defined protocol shows a related approach. Subject: What about application portability? Plan 9 comes with a library that makes it easy to import POSIX-conforming applications. There is also a library that emulates the Berkeley socket interface. Subject: What resources does it need? As might be expected, the answer depends on what you want to do. The kernel, the window system, and the basic applications will run comfortably on a PC with 8MB of memory. On the other hand, the system can grow. The installation at Bell Laboratories includes multiprocessor SGI Challenge and Pentium machines as CPU servers, and a 350GB Sony WORM disk jukebox for the file server. Subject: What GUIs does it support? The standard interface doesn't use icons or drag-n-drop; Plan 9 people tend to be text-oriented. But the window system, the editor, and the general feel are very mousy, very point-and-click: Plan 9 windows are much more than a bunch of glass TTYs. The system supports the graphics primitives and libraries of basic software for building GUIs. A screenshot is available at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/screenshot.html Subject: How do I cut and paste with a 2 button mouse? Plan 9 really works well only with a three-button mouse. In the meantime, Shift-Right-button will simulate a middle button, but that is inadequate for Acme's chording. Subject: Does Plan 9 have any Unix-like terminal emulators? The Plan 9 window system doesn't obey any inline cursor controls, since none of the native applications use cursor-addressing. All cursor control in rio, acme and sam is via the mouse. To see some excellent articles on this important and divisive user interface issue read http://www.asktog.com/readerMail/1999-12ReaderMail.html. If you want to get from Plan9 to Unix systems, you can run /bin/vt in one of your windows, telnet/rlogin to Unix, and set the term/TERM variable accordingly on the Unix end. See vt(1) for more details; note that vt(1) can emulate a VT100 VT220 or ANSI terminal. Subject: What character set does it use? The character set is Unicode, the 16-bit set unified with the ISO 10646 standard for representing languages used throughout the world. The system and its utilities support Unicode using a byte-stream representation (called UTF-8) that is compatible with ASCII. On Plan 9, one may grep for Cyrillic strings in a file with a Japanese name and see the results appear correctly on the terminal. Subject: What about security and user authentication? Plan 9's authentication design is akin to that of MIT's Kerberos. Passwords are never sent over networks; instead encrypted tickets are obtained from an authentication server. It doesn't have the concept of `set UID' programs. The file server doesn't run user programs, and except at its own console, it doesn't allow access to protected files except by authenticated owners. The concept of a special `root' user is gone. Subject: How does it communicate with other systems? The distribution includes a u9fs server that runs on Unix-compatible systems and understands the native Plan 9 remote file protocol, so that file systems of Unix machines may be imported into Plan 9. It also includes an NFS-compatible server that runs on Plan 9, so that Plan 9 file systems may be accessed from other systems that support NFS. It includes the full suite of Internet protocols (telnet, rlogin, ftp). Subject: Is it suitable for real time control? No, it is not. It is a general purpose system, without an interrupt priority scheme or real scheduler. Installation and Administration: Subject: What PC hardware works well with Plan 9? If you don't want to spend time fiddling with and swapping PC hardware, you may prefer to buy hardware that is in use within Bell Labs, see Supported PC Hardware. The biggest source of problems is getting the VGA configured on PC terminals. For best performance and functionality, it is recommended that you use a card that can run at 16 bits per pixel or greater, and with hardware-accelerated graphics support; currently only the Mach64 and S3 Virge are supported to this extent. The best buy today seems to be the ATI 8Meg Xpert 98 cards. For a cpuserver or fileserver any old card that can do CGA is fine. Subject: How do I Install Plan 9? The installation is designed to be run from a PC. 1. Read "Supported PC hardware" to ensure your PC meets the requirements. 2. Back up your system. 3. Make sure you've backed up your system. 4. Read "Installing the Plan 9 Distribution" at URL http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/install.html 5. Check the errata page at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/errata.html for problems and fixes found since the distribution was made. 6. Here are some more questions that have been answered on the 9fans list: IP configuration ndb/cs will set the sysname if you setup an appropriate entry in /lib/ndb/local. You must specify an 'ether=' entry, and the address should be all lower case. If all goes well, ip/ipconfig will then configure IP. Name Service If you have having problems, first check that ndb/dns is running. It needs to be started in /rc/bin/termrc or /rc/bin/cpurc. Also note that only fully qualified names are supported, and there isn't a separate resolver. Binding and Mounting Devices Note that # is the shell comment character, so you must enclose it in single quotes. For example: bind -a '#R6' /dev Auth Server When booting a cpuserver without an auth server, if you give 0.1.0.0 as the auth server address instead the cpu server's own address, you won't have to wait for it to timeout. Subject: It doesn't work for me, how should I troubleshoot? If you are having having SCSI problems, check your cables and terminators. this is generally the single largest cause of weird SCSI problems. Active terminators are best. If you run external cables you need to get high quality ones. Also, don't crank of the speed on the card. Subject: How do I setup the VGA? If the VGA doesn't work, read the last couple sections (Setting Up and Troubleshooting) of "Installing the Plan 9 Distribution" You will have to find out more about the card so you can configure it. The relevant manuals are: vga(3), vgadb(6), vga(8), and 9load(8). If your VGA card is not supported, you could try http://mapage.noos.fr/philippe.anel/ for Matrox G200 G400 and G450 drivers by Philippe Anel or see http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/39/index.html for Riva TNT drivers by Nicholas Waples. Put debug=1 (1st line) in plan9.ini and try again. It may not be of much help but will allow to ask a more specific question. Subject: How do I control the services that start at boot time? This is controlled by shell scripts, that are roughly equivalent to the /etc/rc files on Unix: /rc/bin/termrc for terminals /rc/bin/cpurc for cpu servers See cpurc(8) for more details. Subject: How do I setup network services? For UDP services, you must start them up in the appropriate cpurc(8) file. For TCP or IL services, you must use the listen(8) daemon. Subject: How do I shutdown my terminal/cpuserver system? If you booted from a real fileserver, you can just turn it off. If you are using kfs, you must halt the disks manually by typing disk/kfscmd halt at a prompt and waiting for ``kfs: file system halted'' to appear on the screen. Not doing this means the disk might not be in a consistent state or modified data might not have been written out yet; not halting the disk forces the long wait at the ``kfs...'' when you boot the next time while kfs checks the disk. Subject: How do I reboot my system? The system can be rebooted by typing ^T^Tr (two control-T's followed by 'r'). Cpu servers can be rebooted by typing ^P on the console. See the cons(3) manual for more details. General Information: Subject: Where did the name come from? It was chosen in the Bell Labs tradition of selecting names that make marketeers wince. The developers also wished to pay homage to the famous film, "Plan 9 From Outer Space". Subject: How can I Obtain Plan 9? The Plan 9 release is available for free download at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/download.html It includes source of the kernel, libraries, and commands for all supported architectures. It also includes complete binaries for the x86 architecture. Subject: How can I get involved? The best way to learn about the system is to write something that other people in the Plan 9 user community could use, or to port the system to new platforms. Subject: Where can I get more detailed technical information? The Bell Labs site plan9.bell-labs.com stores a wealth of information about the system. The manual pages are at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/man/ For auxiliary documentation, see http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ A Plan 9 wiki is maintained by enthusiasts at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/1/ Subject: Are there any Plan 9 user groups? There is one in Austin, Texas. See http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18/index.html It's open to anyone, even if you don't live in Austin. Subject: Is the cross product of two vectors a vector? No, it is not, and the fact that people treat it as one is the problem. The *geometric object* that is the closest thing to the c.p. is a skew tensor (practically the same as wedge product), which (only) in 3D has Cartesian components that resemble those of a vector, *except* that this pseudo-vector *flips* under reflection (unlike a genuine vector). Unfortunately, physicists have been trained to express Maxwell's laws as a relationship between a genuine vector (field) and a c.p., which means that that expression of those laws *changes* under reflection, something that physicists are *not* taught and which appears to have been overlooked in the analysis of the (nonconservation of) parity experiment. I had to quote Douglas Gwyn verbatim on this, because I have no *ucking clue what he's talking about -- Steve Subject: Can I emulate Plan 9 under Unix? Several Plan 9 inspired applications are available for Unix systems. The sam editor is available from ftp://netlib.bell-labs.com/netlib/research/sam.shar.gz There is also a Windows 95/NT version of Sam, currently distributed in binary form only, available from ftp://netlib.bell-labs.com/netlib/research/sam.exe Comments and bug reports can be sent to seanq@research.bell-labs.com Wily is an acme lookalike by Gary Capell. See http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz/wily/ Mark H. Wilkinson's 9libs package of Plan 9 emulation libraries for Unix is probably the easiest-to-install distribution of sam and wily. You can get it from http://www.netlib.org/research/9libs/ A free re-implementation of the rc shell is available from http://www.star.le.ac.uk/~tjg/rc/ 9wm is David Hogan's lightweight X window manager in the style of 8½/rio. It was once available from ftp://ftp.cs.su.oz.au/dhog/9wm/ but is being moved to a new home. Comments to dhog@plan9.bell-labs.com 9term is an 8½ terminal emulator by Matty Farrow, matty@cs.su.oz.au, available from ftp://ftp.cs.su.oz.au/matty/unicode/ In the same directory, you'll find a collection of Unicode fonts that can be used with 9term, sam and wily. 9menu is a simple program by Arnold Robbins, arnold@skeeve.com, that allows you to create X menus from the shell, where each menu item will run a command. 9menu is intended for use with 9wm, but can be used with any other window manager. It is available from ftp://ftp.freefriends.org/arnold/Source/9menu-1.5.shar.gz Copyright © 1995 Lucent Technologies. All rights reserved. -- Steve Kotsopoulos steve@fywss.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 19:16:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 19:16:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21874 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21870 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 19:16:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A6B2819A27; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:16:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DA3DC1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16WaTG-00041l-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:59:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C5A099D.FCCE3FCC@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <3C57AF73.727F8CE9@null.net>, <20020131121422.M24700@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:57:54 GMT Lucio De Re wrote: > Well, you made it sound like computing was less frustrating than > mainline physics. Heard any good M$ jokes lately? Undoubtedly *some* aspects of computing are frustrating (how about everybody who tries to get Plan 9 working on unsupported hardware?), but I don't find the whole *profession* frustrating. At least not until mandatory certification, which is something that we're threatened with every so often. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 19:16:41 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 19:16:41 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21881 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21877 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:40 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 19:16:40 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AF2EA199BF; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:16:30 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 154BA19995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16WaTG-00041f-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:59:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C5A091B.5EE62DB0@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <3C57AF73.727F8CE9@null.net>, <3C58DFD7.33AFB32B@null.net>, <87d6zqsww6.fsf@becket.becket.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:57:38 GMT "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > So are there references that back up what you are saying, ... What I am saying is that if parity was *not* conserved, the theoretical analysis behind the famous experiments (on weak decay) did not demonstrate it, due to not accounting for the non-vectorial nature of the c.p. in the form of Maxwell's laws used in the analysis. I have my own reasons to think that mirror symmetry *has* to be a fundamental property of physics and that any asymmetry is environmentally induced. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 19:16:45 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 19:16:45 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21889 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:45 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21885 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 19:16:44 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 19:16:44 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0037F1999B; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:16:34 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 44EA819980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 05:14:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16WaTF-00041Z-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ozan s yigit Message-ID: Organization: York University References: , Subject: Re: [9fans] Hans Reiser paper on name spaces in operating systems Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:57:21 GMT viro@math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) writes: > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, John Murdie wrote: > > > For those people who haven't seen this already: a paper by Hans Reiser > > (of Reiser File System fame) called ``The Naming System Venture''. It > > briefly mentions Plan 9. > > ... and happens to be illiterate. > is this an undergrad document? it is very strange. the dialogue is a nice idea, but one should read at least the kerberos dialogue (or go to the real authority, plato) to learn how to do it... hobbes is right. :) oz --- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | if you couldn't find any weirdness, maybe york u. computer science | we'll just have to make some! -- hobbes From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 1 21:36:10 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 1 21:36:10 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23474 invoked by uid 1020); 1 Feb 2002 21:36:10 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23470 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2002 21:36:10 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 1 Feb 2002 21:36:10 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C6B6019A1C; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:36:01 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36E5D19981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 07:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Wcbc-0000q1-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 12:15:48 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: patric keller Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <20020131003259.376689e4.matt@proweb.co.uk>, <3.0.6.32.20020131135040.0097d560@pop3.clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: [9fans] Hans Reiser paper on name spaces in operating systems Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 12:15:09 GMT andrew@mbmnz.co.nz (Andrew Simmons) wrote in message news:<3.0.6.32.20020131135040.0097d560@pop3.clear.net.nz>... > At 00:32 31/01/2002 +0000, you wrote: > > > >> > For those people who haven't seen this already: a paper by Hans Reiser > >> > (of Reiser File System fame) called ``The Naming System Venture''. > > >> ... and happens to be illiterate. > > > >I've heard of bit rot but .... > > > > A Naming System Should Reflect Rather than Mold Structure > > > >m > > Perhaps it was translated from the original German by the Google > translation engine? ("[...] a description of vaporware.") nah, don't blame google for that. this 'paper' is just weird. pat From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 2 01:45:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 2 01:45:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26695 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Feb 2002 01:45:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26691 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2002 01:45:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Feb 2002 01:45:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0E990199BF; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:45:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5E44E19981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 11:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16WglX-0003dy-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:42:19 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87ofj9kvpa.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <3C58DFD7.33AFB32B@null.net>, <87d6zqsww6.fsf@becket.becket.net>, <3C5A091B.5EE62DB0@null.net> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: [9fans] Getting started in Plan9 - help Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:41:59 GMT "Douglas A. Gwyn" writes: > What I am saying is that if parity was *not* conserved, the > theoretical analysis behind the famous experiments (on weak > decay) did not demonstrate it, due to not accounting for the > non-vectorial nature of the c.p. in the form of Maxwell's laws > used in the analysis. Gotcha. Where can I read about it? > I have my own reasons to think that mirror symmetry *has* to > be a fundamental property of physics and that any asymmetry > is environmentally induced. Sure, I think that's why the original result was so counter-intuitive. There are profound metaphysical reasons to insist on certain physical symmetries. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 2 06:08:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 2 06:08:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28053 invoked by uid 1020); 2 Feb 2002 06:08:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28049 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2002 06:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 2 Feb 2002 06:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2431619988; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:08:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D8EED199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:07:45 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: dpx@acl.lanl.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020201210745.D8EED199F2@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] XaoS for plan9 3rd Ed. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 14:06:18 -0700 Andrey's foo.c program inspired me it take another look at a little project I shelved a few months back. That is porting XaoS "the realtime fractal zoomer" to the 3rd Ed. of Plan9. (There was a port of a older version to 8 1/2 so porting to rio was not that hard) There are a few things that don't quite work yet, but for anyone that is interested, the patches are available from http:/www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/xaos/index.html -dp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 3 03:36:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 3 03:36:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7840 invoked by uid 1020); 3 Feb 2002 03:36:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7836 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2002 03:36:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 3 Feb 2002 03:36:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EA6EA199B7; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:36:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 44558199A3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10236 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2002 18:34:12 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 2 Feb 2002 18:34:12 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] No MBR and mice Message-Id: <20020202183411.5327be39.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020127062522.DC451199DD@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020127062522.DC451199DD@mail.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:34:11 +0000 On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:25:16 -0500 "Russ Cox" wrote: > Is Plan 9 the only thing on the disk? It could be > that if Plan 9 is way into the disk we need to use > LBA mode to get at the PBS, and your older PC BIOS > doesn't support that. I'll try LBA (i think it's that already though) Even with the newer BIOS it still says MBR not found but boots anyway! The plan9 on the first 3rd ed CD boots just fine on the same BIOS (not tried it with this disk. I used a 20G but could only "see" the first 8Gb. ) > Shift is the button that turns button 3 into button 2. I've had no joy whatsoever with my serial mice. I tried -dC, I tried the holding down B1. I've put a ps2intellimouse on there for now but which is a shame. The wheel feels wrong as a button but at least I can save files. I'm sure I'll find the perfect mouse one day (heck I've been using a trackball on it all week). I'm getting closer and closer to plan9 as my main desktop now but using vnc to get my imap mail, irc & mozilla with FreeBSD. M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 04:54:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 04:54:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21674 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 04:54:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21670 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 04:54:28 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 04:54:28 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D498F19A1C; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:54:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 33A7119980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 08:54:17 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020204085524.0099aee0@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons In-Reply-To: <3C5A091B.5EE62DB0@null.net> References: <3C57AF73.727F8CE9@null.net> <3C58DFD7.33AFB32B@null.net> <87d6zqsww6.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2002 19:54:17.0113 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FFDF890:01C1ACEC] Subject: [9fans] Cross products - longish & boring, but now officially on topic! Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:55:24 +1300 Since this topic is now in the FAQ, I presume that I'm allowed to drone on about it a bit more. Besides, it means I can put off wrestling with CORBA for a few minutes. I'm confused. When I was a lad we were taught that there were two types of vector, polar and axial which differed in their behaviour under reflection of the co-ordinate system. The fact that the cross product of two polar vectors is an axial vector doesn't mean that axial vectors aren't really vectors, any more than the fact that the product of two negative integers is a positive integer means that positive integers aren't really integers. I'm not sure what the problem with Maxwell's equations is. The electric field E is a polar vector, but the magnetic field B is an axial vector. Since the curl of an axial vector is polar, and vice versa, it is perfectly kosher to relate the curl of E to the time derivative of B, both terms being axial vectors, and hence the equation being invariant under reflection. Similarly with the equation involving the curl of B, where both sides are polar. As far as I understand Lee & Yang's analysis of the parity experiments, which is admittedly not very far, they explained the asymmetry in the decay of the Cobalt nucleus by mixing polar (momentum) and axial (angular momentum) vectors in the same equation, and so unlike Maxwell's equations theirs does change under reflection. >I have my own reasons to think that mirror symmetry *has* to >be a fundamental property of physics and that any asymmetry >is environmentally induced. > I'm suspicious of any attempt to say what nature has to look like on a priori grounds, but to pursue this would be majorly off-topic. Unless Mr Kotsopoulos can be persuaded to add a new entry to the FAQ, perhaps with the title "Can there be synthetic a priori propositions?" The above probably indirectly addresses Boyd's musing about the physics/computing crossover. I don't think I could possibly support a wife, a child, and a gin habit doing this sort of stuff. Oh well, back to CORBA. I feel SO much better having to deal with the whole filthy mess since Reiser told us it was influenced by Plan 9. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 06:01:41 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 06:01:41 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21901 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 06:01:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21897 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 06:01:41 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 06:01:41 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0E5B01998C; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:01:30 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8FD0019988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:00:05 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020204100112.0099d5d8@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2002 21:00:05.0741 (UTC) FILETIME=[C18EC9D0:01C1ACF5] Subject: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:01:12 +1300 I seem to remember some one saying here a while back that virtual memory and paging were quite distinct, whereas I'd always vaguely assumed they were the same thing. Could some one explain the difference to me, or point me in the direction of enlightenment? The issue came up in a friend's job interview recently, and he wrongly assumed the same as me. Thanks From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 06:13:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 06:13:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21923 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 06:13:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21919 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 06:13:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 06:13:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4E6819995; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:13:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 30F3019A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:12:37 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020203211237.30F3019A00@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:12:35 -0700 virtual memory as a technique could be implemented using both 'demand paging' and 'demand segmentation' the most obvious difference between a page and a segment is that different segments could be of different sizes while pages have the same size (or set of sizes).. hmm.. i just found the relevant textbook -- Operating Systems Concepts, 5th ed, (Silberschatz, Galvin) page 291 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 06:24:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 06:24:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21982 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 06:24:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21978 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 06:24:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 06:24:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CF91F199B7; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:24:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6901B199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:23:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:21:08 -0500 I don't know that anyone else makes this distinction, but to me virtual memory is a technique an operating system can use to manage user memory, while paging is a technique for coping with a shortfall in physical memory. VM manages memory by using page faults to fill in the user address space; paging is just swapping a page at a time. The relationship between these notions is primarily that both permit the process to execute when it is not entirely resident. By these definitions, it is possible (easy even) to build a system with virtual memory but no paging. Even I can do it. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 06:54:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 06:54:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22090 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 06:54:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22086 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 06:54:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 06:54:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2501D1999B; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:54:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E991919995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:53:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@closedmind.org To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:53:06 -0500 Virtual memory covers any memory that isn't laid out exactly as it seems to an executing program, i.e., that there exists some mapping between addresses as seen by the execution unit and those on the bus to physical memory. The mapping can happen a number of ways. The two more popular are via paging hardware or segmentation hardware. Pages are typically fixed size and segments variable size. From the PDP-11 to the MIPS there have been enough flavors that the distinction is a bit blurred. If one is willing to move data between a backing store and main memory in addition to chaging the mappings, one can make the main memory appear larger than it really is. This is usually termed demand paging or demand segmentation. An earlier technique, still in use in addition to demand paging/ segmentation is swapping. If many processes are running on a particular system, it may desirable to swap in main memory one for another to give the illusion of a main memory that can hold all of them. And of course there is the even earlier technique of overlays. Here one figures out the execution tree of routines in a program. One might note that routine A will never be an ancestor of routine B or vice versa. THerefore, there's no requirement that they live in memory simultaneously and can occupy the same memory locations, just at different times. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 07:38:52 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 07:38:52 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22215 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 07:38:52 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22211 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 07:38:52 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 07:38:52 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 68BF919A17; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:38:42 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 78521199EC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:35:39 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020204113640.0099aee0@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2002 22:35:39.0235 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AFC8B30:01C1AD03] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:36:40 +1300 At 16:53 3/02/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Virtual memory covers any memory that isn't laid out >exactly as it seems to an executing program, i.e., that >there exists some mapping between addresses as seen by the >execution unit and those on the bus to physical memory. > I hope this isn't too dumb a question, but given a sufficiently large physical memory, what would be the advantage of anything other than a one to one mapping of execution unit and physical addresses? >And of course there is the even earlier technique of overlays. I wish you hadn't mentioned those. I'd almost managed to forget about them. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 08:13:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 08:13:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22355 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 08:13:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22351 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 08:13:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 08:13:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6D51C199BC; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:13:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (dnspac.collyer.net [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8ED7B199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:12:58 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: geoff@collyer.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 15:08:39 -0800 Even if your physical memory were as large as your virtual address space, an obvious advantage to mapping addresses is to permit programs linked to start at a fixed address (usually the second page of the address space) to be run without first running a loading pass to relocate all the addresses in the entire program. In addition, memory management units normally provide varying forms of protection for pages (e.g., instructions are usually made read- or execute-only) and checking for out-of-bounds (unmapped) addresses. On many machines, notably the PC, a read from an address with no corresponding memory (i.e., out-of-bounds) yields garbage; with memory management on, many such references can be caught. The MMU can thus be used to ensure that a program doesn't access data in other programs (including the kernel) without their consent. Another potential use of mapping is to avoid copying data by remapping pages. I would turn the question around: when would you want a one-to-one mapping of virtual to physical addresses? There are a few such cases: if memory serves, the old VAX 750 Plan 9 file server ran with the MMU off because it runs no user-mode processes and it was found that running with the MMU off made the machine run much faster. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 08:25:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 08:25:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22402 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 08:25:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 08:25:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 08:25:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BC28A199D5; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:25:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A7CD519981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:25:37 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020204092636.0099aee0@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2002 23:25:37.0156 (UTC) FILETIME=[15E2FC40:01C1AD0A] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:26:36 +1300 Thanks for that - it was a dumb question. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 11:21:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 11:21:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25595 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 11:21:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25591 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 11:21:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 11:21:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8F5F3199E3; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:21:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from smtp012.mail.yahoo.com (smtp012.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.32]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 08629199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (HELO rosh) (202.9.167.11) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 02:20:07 -0000 Message-ID: <002301c1ad22$49d56660$1ea709ca@rosh> From: "Roshan James" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [9fans] Re: No MBR and mice Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:47:49 +0530 i had run into similar problems with my installation which got corrected when my fdisk program was updated. i had plan9 way into the disk and lba was enabled and running smooth. maybe you just need to update the fdisk. roshan ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 15:08:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 15:08:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30264 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 15:08:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30260 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 15:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 15:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 088E4199D5; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:08:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cejchan.gli.cas.cz (cejchan.gli.cas.cz [147.231.139.4]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2ADBD19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cejchan.gli.cas.cz (cej@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cejchan.gli.cas.cz (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g146ILiB003462 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:18:21 +0100 Received: (from cej@localhost) by cejchan.gli.cas.cz (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) id g146IKpV003460 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:18:20 +0100 From: cej@cejchan.gli.cas.cz To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS for plan9 3rd Ed. Message-ID: <20020204071820.A3453@cejchan.gli.cas.cz> References: <20020201210745.D8EED199F2@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020201210745.D8EED199F2@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from dpx@acl.lanl.gov on Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 02:06:18PM -0700 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 07:18:20 +0100 Yup! xaos is definitely wonderful. however, could somebody add zooming also to postscript and jpeg viewers? would be grateful for one. well, and what about supporting jpeg2000 (http://www.jpeg.org): wavelet compressed images order of magnitude better than plain 'old' jpegs... must see. i use it over a year for storage of all my pics. cheers, ++pac -- Peter A Cejchan (paleo)biologist Acad. Sci., Prague, CZ http://cejchan.gli.cas.cz From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 15:25:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 15:25:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30596 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 15:25:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30592 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 15:25:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 15:25:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2B365199ED; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:25:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ohio.river.org (river.org [192.160.193.125]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DDA7E199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ru@localhost) by ohio.river.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23600; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:21:45 -0800 (PST) From: Richard Uhtenwoldt To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging Message-ID: <20020203222145.A22998@ohio.river.org> References: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from geoff@collyer.net on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:08:39PM -0800 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:21:45 -0800 On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:08:39PM -0800, geoff@collyer.net wrote: > Even if your physical memory were as large as your virtual address > space, an obvious advantage to mapping addresses is [...] > Another potential use of mapping is to avoid copying data by remapping > pages. Plan 9 has no DLLs. It has a C runtime library. I'm sure it's smaller than the GNU C library, but is there a copy of the libary in every executable in /bin? is there a copy of it in every process's memory or is it shared among all the processses? if so, is memory mapping how the sharing is effected? (I know this is undergrad material. Let me know if I should stop asking elementary questions here.) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 19:34:55 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 19:34:55 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2358 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 19:34:55 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2354 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 19:34:55 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 19:34:55 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C3E9A19981; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 05:34:40 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B077D19A17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 05:33:20 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-qbvdaodgnammxxcqnymdbzzrjs" Message-Id: <20020204103320.B077D19A17@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:30:39 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-qbvdaodgnammxxcqnymdbzzrjs Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there isn't a copy of the library in every executable because the linker includes from the library only the functions the program uses (directly or indirectly). this is typically smaller than the whole library. there would be scope for some sharing but the gain dynamically is typically small: not all the executables in /386/bin are in use simultaneously. after all, it's hard to buy a machine with less than 64mbytes these days and with plan 9 running rather a lot of that is free space, unless you've got big memory applications such as ghostscript in which case it's the application rather than the library that consumes the space. i suppose if you'd got an enormous application library shared by several applications in use at once you'd see more need for library sharing. in plan 9, that shared functionality might be better represented as a file server (though not always). dynamic linking might be of more interest (in Plan 9) for selection amongst a set of implementations at run-time. --upas-qbvdaodgnammxxcqnymdbzzrjs Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu> Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk id 1012803949:20:22708:58; Mon, 04 Feb 2002 06:25:49 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2124485; 4 Feb 2002 6:25 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2B365199ED; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:25:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ohio.river.org (river.org [192.160.193.125]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DDA7E199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ru@localhost) by ohio.river.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23600; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:21:45 -0800 (PST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging Message-ID: <20020203222145.A22998@ohio.river.org> References: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20020203231258.8ED7B199E8@mail.cse.psu.edu>; from geoff@collyer.net on Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:08:39PM -0800 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:21:45 -0800 On Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:08:39PM -0800, geoff@collyer.net wrote: > Even if your physical memory were as large as your virtual address > space, an obvious advantage to mapping addresses is [...] > Another potential use of mapping is to avoid copying data by remapping > pages. Plan 9 has no DLLs. It has a C runtime library. I'm sure it's smaller than the GNU C library, but is there a copy of the libary in every executable in /bin? is there a copy of it in every process's memory or is it shared among all the processses? if so, is memory mapping how the sharing is effected? (I know this is undergrad material. Let me know if I should stop asking elementary questions here.) --upas-qbvdaodgnammxxcqnymdbzzrjs-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 19:40:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 19:40:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2408 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 19:40:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2404 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 19:40:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 19:40:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDA5119980; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 05:40:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (collyer.net [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 36F5419A27 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 05:39:44 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: geoff@collyer.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 02:38:16 -0800 There isn't a copy of the entire C library in every binary. There is a copy of each library routine called, directly or indirectly, by the program in question. Sharing of instructions is done at the granularity of process text segments, as in V6 or V7 Unix. The text segment of a process that forks is shared between parent and child by page mapping. Also, running (via exec) a program multiple times concurrently causes the (pure) text segment to be shared by page mapping across those processes. So all copies of rc and on a machine should share a text segment. Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic libraries. (Remember that the real impetus for adding them to Unix was X11 and its big and badly-factored libraries, which most of us aren't blessed with.) My terminal has 115 processes; all but 4 of them share their text segment with at least one other process, usually more. 74 of them are instances of rio, Mail, rc, acme, listen, plumber and samterm. A CPU server has 141 processes; all but 2 share text. 80 of them are listen, another 21 are rc, exportfs, kfs, dns and consolefs. A quick sampling suggests that Plan 9 programs are typically smaller than FreeBSD/386 programs even with shared libraries. Here are some FreeBSD sizes: : unix; size /bin/cat /bin/ed /usr/bin/awk /usr/X11/bin/sam text data bss dec hex filename 54188 4324 9760 68272 10ab0 /bin/cat 122835 8772 81920 213527 34217 /bin/ed 135761 4772 15756 156289 26281 /usr/bin/awk 52525 1412 53448 107385 1a379 /usr/X11/bin/sam Of those, awk and sam use shared libraries. The corresponding Plan 9 sizes are: ; cd /bin; size cat ed awk sam 15996t + 2208d + 944b = 19148 cat 45964t + 4212d + 41232b = 91408 ed 114731t + 35660d + 12040b = 162431 awk 86574t + 7800d + 66240b = 160614 sam and the Plan 9 programs cope with Unicode and UTF. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 20:02:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 20:02:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2583 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 20:02:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2579 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 20:02:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 20:02:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36AD5199E8; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:02:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 588D119999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:01:39 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020204110139.588D119999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:59:30 0000 I don't know that anyone else makes this distinction, but to me virtual memory is a technique an operating system can use to manage user memory, while paging is a technique for coping with a shortfall in physical memory. VM manages memory by using page faults to fill in it's a distinction that certainly used to be made when teaching operating systems. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 20:05:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 20:05:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2602 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 20:05:11 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2598 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 20:05:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 20:05:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7FE2199EC; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:05:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 371C319988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:03:59 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Cross products - longish & boring, but now officially on topic! From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020204110359.371C319988@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:01:51 0000 Oh well, back to CORBA. I feel SO much better having to deal with the whole filthy mess since Reiser told us it was influenced by Plan 9. it's really rather awful, isn't it. it ought to have been called COBRA. in the same way, SOAP isn't cleansing. so many misleading acronyms! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 20:17:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 20:17:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2698 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 20:17:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2694 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 20:17:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 20:17:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A5A6719A1C; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:17:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 22BB519980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g14BEhpZ009197 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:14:43 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5E6D72.289692B8@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging References: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:16:02 +0100 geoff@collyer.net wrote: > Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in > OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of > dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic > libraries. Neither do I. Didn't the tests show that the implementation of them on unix actually made things slower and more memory got used, not less? Virtual memory usually refers to the management of the memory when you allow more 'memory' to be used than you have physical memory. It always implies a private virtual address space (unlike those Dragonball based Palm things). Hence you could have a private virtual address space but no virtual memory. This would limit the size of the collection of processes on the machine to not consume more that the amount of physical memory you had. Once you have a private virtual address space [essential, except in certain special cases] you can then manage the physical memory in any way you like. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 4 20:46:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 4 20:46:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2921 invoked by uid 1020); 4 Feb 2002 20:46:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2917 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 20:46:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 20:46:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A196A199E4; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:46:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 09E0A199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g14BiQpZ009404 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5E746A.A5EA4630@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging References: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 12:45:46 +0100 geoff@collyer.net wrote: > Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in > OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of > dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic > libraries. Oh, if it comes to DLLs, those things are 'orrible; every 'process' shares the DLL's data segment. That's one reason why it is impossible to write a correct windows program. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 01:42:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 01:42:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 4966 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 01:42:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4962 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 01:42:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 01:42:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 19B2C199E4; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:42:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C94C019995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 11:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1006228 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 09:15:19 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 09:15:19 -0700 Received: (qmail 3439 invoked by uid 3499); 4 Feb 2002 09:15:18 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 09:15:18 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20020204092636.0099aee0@pop3.clear.net.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:15:18 -0700 (MST) On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Andrew Simmons wrote: > Thanks for that - it was a dumb question. actually not a dumb question I think. There have been supercomputers with no VM hardware that were built, and the OS on these remapped (relinked) executables at program load time, so as to avoid the overhead that you get with VM (basically a bunch of logic in the address path). So in essence the start address in your code and the address of your data would be unique for each execution of your program. Some of the more fancy ones wrapped base and bounds registers around each program, and that was as far as protection went. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 05:10:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 05:10:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6093 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 05:10:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6089 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 05:10:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 05:10:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9ED9E199E8; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:10:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF18A19981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:09:29 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020205061022.009b6220@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <3C5E746A.A5EA4630@strakt.com> References: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2002 20:09:29.0762 (UTC) FILETIME=[DA62E820:01C1ADB7] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 06:10:22 +1300 That's one reason why it is impossible >to write a correct windows program. > Another reason of course is that we Windows programmers are simply not very bright. Could anyone recommend a good book to help me remedy my profound ignorance of these matters? I'm looking for a conceptual overview, nothing too heavy, rather than something that will actually teach me how to write an OS. Andrey mentioned Silberschatz & Galvin - would that fit the bill? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 06:34:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 06:34:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6399 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 06:34:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6395 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 06:34:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 06:34:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D2A3B199EC; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:34:16 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from murrow2k1.real.com (murrow2k1.real.com [207.188.7.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 55E66199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from skipt.real.com ([172.21.104.107]) by murrow2k1.real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g14LW3sJ015242 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 13:32:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112051.03865598@mail.real.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: skipt@real.com Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 13:46:57 -0800 > >By these definitions, it is possible (easy even) to build a system >with virtual memory but no paging. Even I can do it. > >-rob I have an amateur question: how would that work? would the compilers need to cooperate for this to work? How would something like a stray pointer be handled? I'm not sure if "no paging" means no hardware memory management of any kind. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 07:14:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 07:14:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6565 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 07:14:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6561 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 07:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 07:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 337FE199B7; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:14:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 37A67199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1031075 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700 Received: (qmail 5131 invoked by uid 3499); 4 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 4 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112051.03865598@mail.real.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:11:59 -0700 (MST) On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 skipt@real.com wrote: > > > > >By these definitions, it is possible (easy even) to build a system > >with virtual memory but no paging. Even I can do it. > > > >-rob > > I have an amateur question: how would that work? would the compilers > need to cooperate for this to work? How would something like a stray > pointer be handled? see any old burroughs stack machine. Or the i286. Compilers do not necessarily need to cooperate. > I'm not sure if "no paging" means no hardware memory management of > any kind. no, it just means no paging :-) ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 10:16:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 10:16:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7993 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 10:16:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7989 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 10:16:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 10:16:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8E160199A3; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:16:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from murrow2k1.real.com (murrow2k1.real.com [207.188.7.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 329A0199EC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 20:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from skipt.real.com ([172.21.104.107]) by murrow2k1.real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g151FCsJ000560 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:15:12 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204160035.025616c0@mail.real.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: skipt@real.com Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204112051.03865598@mail.real.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:30:06 -0800 > >see any old burroughs stack machine. Or the i286. Compilers do not >necessarily need to cooperate. Do you mean systems that had hardware like this memory bank switch: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-68269/z80_mmu.pdf >> I'm not sure if "no paging" means no hardware memory management of >> any kind. > >no, it just means no paging :-) > >ron I was confusing no-paging with no-hardware-mmu. P.S. Would you believe that there is a memorymanagement.org, dedicated to the subject? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 11:24:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 11:24:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8907 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 11:24:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8903 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 11:24:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 11:24:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5C6B6199E8; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:24:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A95B9199BC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:25:04 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020205152551.0098a0b0@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2002 02:25:04.0736 (UTC) FILETIME=[52470E00:01C1ADEC] Subject: [9fans] Thread library Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:25:51 +1300 Does anyone know of a port of the Plan 9 thread library to Windows NT? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 11:33:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 11:33:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9003 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 11:33:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8999 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 11:33:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 11:33:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 12AA6199B3; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:33:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7E55219992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:32:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ae0b0262b7b842b424abcf81dc0fd0f@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:31:15 -0500 I have a very recent one. So recent that I'm still finding bugs in it. Once I've used it more and am convinced that it's solid, I'll put it up somewhere. Ditto for the associated Unix ports. To the best of my knowledge, you can't implement threadkill completely on NT since I don't see how to send an interrupt to another process. If anyone knows how, I'd appreciate hearing. Thanks. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 16:40:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 16:40:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13162 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 16:40:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13158 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 16:40:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 16:40:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CCCCE19999; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:40:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 03EE2199BC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:39:02 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread library From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-fhkfwtnwkuszyjpewytkrwayxj" Message-Id: <20020205073902.03EE2199BC@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:38:49 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-fhkfwtnwkuszyjpewytkrwayxj Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You mean interrupt a system call? I don't think so. --upas-fhkfwtnwkuszyjpewytkrwayxj Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Tue Feb 5 02:30:00 GMT 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E2D3199BB; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:33:04 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7E55219992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:32:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ae0b0262b7b842b424abcf81dc0fd0f@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 21:31:15 -0500 I have a very recent one. So recent that I'm still finding bugs in it. Once I've used it more and am convinced that it's solid, I'll put it up somewhere. Ditto for the associated Unix ports. To the best of my knowledge, you can't implement threadkill completely on NT since I don't see how to send an interrupt to another process. If anyone knows how, I'd appreciate hearing. Thanks. Russ --upas-fhkfwtnwkuszyjpewytkrwayxj-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 19:01:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 19:01:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15067 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 19:01:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15062 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 19:01:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 19:01:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5A8DE199A3; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:01:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5170B19A17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Y2Ic-0001L4-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:54:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ozan s yigit Message-ID: Organization: York University Subject: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:53:43 GMT fyi: this is published in the last issue of 2600. http://www.phrack.org/show.php?p=58&a=12 oz -- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | don't count your chickens in glass houses york u. computer science | until the cows come home. -- david vestal From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 19:01:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 19:01:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15075 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 19:01:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15071 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 19:01:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 19:01:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 251B7199EC; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:01:12 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EF9871999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Y2Ic-0001LA-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:54:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <871yg0ln64.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:53:58 GMT geoff@collyer.net writes: > Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in > OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of > dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic > libraries. Well, this sounds a little like "it's inherently buggy", which is false. If you don't trust yourself to write a shared library implementation correctly, then say so, but I think the Plan 9 authors are certainly capable of writing one that works right. There may be other reason to not want them--as I'm sure the Plan 9 authors have chosen. However, "we can't write an implementation without bugs" is not a good reason. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 19:49:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 19:49:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15742 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 19:49:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15738 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 19:49:34 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 19:49:34 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1633919A02; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:49:28 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C52B219981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:48:41 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-gqvejzhjamhlcgfakpxjkuiius" Message-Id: <20020205104841.C52B219981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:03:55 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-gqvejzhjamhlcgfakpxjkuiius Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It still uses to be made; at least that's what I tell my students. --upas-gqvejzhjamhlcgfakpxjkuiius Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by aquamar; Mon Feb 4 12:02:14 MET 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36AD5199E8; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:02:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 588D119999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 4 Feb 2002 06:01:39 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020204110139.588D119999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:59:30 0000 I don't know that anyone else makes this distinction, but to me virtual memory is a technique an operating system can use to manage user memory, while paging is a technique for coping with a shortfall in physical memory. VM manages memory by using page faults to fill in it's a distinction that certainly used to be made when teaching operating systems. --upas-gqvejzhjamhlcgfakpxjkuiius-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 19:58:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 19:58:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15854 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 19:58:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15850 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 19:58:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 19:58:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7E3FC19999; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:58:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E311C19999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 50169 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 10:56:54 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 10:56:54 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <20020205105654.0107e6d7.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] new style t-shirt Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:56:54 +0000 hi, y new style black plan9 t-shirt arrived today, a day late for my birthday but a very welcome plop onto the welcome mat. It's fab. Thanks Vita Nuova M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 19:58:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 19:58:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15861 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 19:58:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15857 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 19:58:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 19:58:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E417019A04; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:58:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (cpu.collyer.net [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id AF44019999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 05:57:39 -0500 (EST) From: geoff@collyer.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020205105739.AF44019999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:57:29 -0800 I didn't say that "we can't write an implementation without bugs", merely that the existing implementations I'm familiar with have made the system slower (e.g., adding shared libraries in SunOS 4.0 hugely slowed down the fork system call of even the smallest possible process), added complexity to the system and for the users (more kernel code, two sets of libraries [shared and unshared], static vs. dynamic link decisions, run-time loader paths, extra process start-up processing), usually coped poorly with set-id programs, and the extra complexity made the system more fragile in single-user mode (you need all the right shared libraries on the root filesystem) and when manipulating libraries generally. So I don't believe I've seen an existence proof that shared libraries can do more good than harm; maybe they can, but given the evidence to date, I'm skeptical. And given that we (outside the Labs anyway) don't have the problem that made people add shared libraries to Unix, X, and that our binaries are at least competitive in size with systems that do have shared libraries, and that one can just add RAM cheaply to avoid swapping anyway, why bother? Adding unneeded goo like shared libraries to a system just makes it bigger, at minimum. Depending upon the quality of the implementation, it may also make it slower, more complex and fragile, and create new security holes. Such a deal. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 20:18:27 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 20:18:27 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15964 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 20:18:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15960 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 20:18:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 20:18:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 790D019981; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:18:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 30D311998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15BFmpZ019809; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:15:48 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FBF45.3F413FE3@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging References: <20020204103944.36F5419A27@mail.cse.psu.edu> <3.0.6.32.20020205061022.009b6220@pop3.clear.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:17:25 +0100 Andrew Simmons wrote: > Another reason of course is that we Windows programmers are simply not very > bright. There is that, but the environment is so hostile it really is hard. > Could anyone recommend a good book to help me remedy my profound ignorance > of these matters? I'm looking for a conceptual overview, nothing too heavy, > rather than something that will actually teach me how to write an OS. > Andrey mentioned Silberschatz & Galvin - would that fit the bill? When I were a lad, we used this: Fundamentals of Operating Systems By A. Lister Hardcover 161 Pages Edition: 3rd ed Published by Springer-Verlag New York, Incorporated Date Published: 09/1985 ISBN: 0387912517 At 161 pages it makes it a 'readable' size. The rest I picked up 'the hard way' (tm) or from brucee or maltby. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 20:29:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 20:29:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16054 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 20:29:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16050 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 20:29:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 20:29:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BAB9D199D5; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:29:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8C845199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 50455 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 11:28:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 11:28:26 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <20020205112826.5461c636.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] "a pox on the things." [uk keyboards] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:28:26 +0000 i've read keyboard(6) and associated man pages searched the archive read the faq but can't find out how to stop having to search my kb for the characters (which can get a bit dangerous 'cos pressing | on my kb generates nothing!) did you get a bigger desk in the end Charles? Matt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 21:08:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 21:08:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16382 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 21:08:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16378 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 21:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 21:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 94C69199B7; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:08:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F19CF19A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15Bi3pZ020127 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:44:03 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FC5E3.1B1A7F9F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] "a pox on the things." [uk keyboards] References: <20020205112826.5461c636.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:45:39 +0100 Matt H wrote: > but can't find out how to stop having to search my kb for the characters Have you seen the /dev/kbmap stuff? KBMAP(3) KBMAP(3) NAME kbmap - keyboard map SYNOPSIS bind -a #Io /dev /dev/kbmap DESCRIPTION The kbmap device serves a one-level directory containing a single file, kbmap, representing the kernel's mapping of keyboard scan codes to Unicode characters (see cons(3) and keyboard(6)). Reads return the current contents of the map. Each entry is one line containing three 11 character numeric fields, each followed by a space: a table number, an index into the table (scan code), and the decimal value of the corre- sponding Unicode character (0 if none). The table numbers are platform dependent; they typically distinguish between unshifted and shifted keys. The scan code values are hardware dependent and can vary from keyboard to keyboard. Writes to the file change the map. Lines written to the file must contain three space-separated numeric fields, representing the table number, scan code index, and Uni- code character. Values are taken to be decimal unless they start with 0x (hexadecimal) or 0 (octal). The Uni- code character can also be represented as 'x where x gives the UTF-8 representation of the character (see utf(6)). Entries in the Unicode `private use' area from +U'FD80' to +U'FDFF' might have special meaning to some keyboard drivers and should not be mapped (or remapped) lightly. SEE ALSO cons(3), keyboard(6), utf(6) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 21:09:10 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 21:09:10 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16395 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:10 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16391 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 21:09:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8AC6A199BB; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:09:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8E894199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15BTSpZ019923 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:29:28 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FC278.1979580C@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread library References: <1ae0b0262b7b842b424abcf81dc0fd0f@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:31:04 +0100 Russ Cox wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, you can't implement threadkill > completely on NT since I don't see how to send an interrupt to > another process. I'm pretty sure you can't. The best you can do is send it a message to _persuade_ it to pack it in. My theory is that the program loader, oops kernel, forcibly kills processes by ripping them out of memory and throwing away their kernel resources. The whole model is totally and utterly flawed. I guess you could have a thread manager thread that receives a threadkill messages and kills 'em. Such revolting hacks are often the only way to do it. Try writing rsh [remote shell] on NT. You can't select [WaitForMultipleObjects or whatever it's called] on sockets ... It's doable, but revolting. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 21:09:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 21:09:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16402 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16398 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 21:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF75719A0B; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:09:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2CF8B199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15BVepZ019950 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:31:40 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FC2FC.43022AA4@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt References: <20020205105654.0107e6d7.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:33:16 +0100 Matt H wrote: > new style black plan9 t-shirt arrived today, a day late for my birthday I still like the bowling shirts. Thanks to bobf. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 21:09:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 21:09:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16410 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16406 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 21:09:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 21:09:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 033A719A63; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:09:17 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 34A66199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15BZnpZ019984 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:35:49 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FC3F6.B472B561@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging References: <20020205105739.AF44019999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:37:26 +0100 geoff@collyer.net wrote: > Such a deal. Yeah, just put truss/strace on any shared libary binary. I assume that all those mmap()s are to map the libraries in and each one of those is a _system call_, plus all the stat/open's to find them. It's a lot quicker (and simpler) in the kernel to get exec to do the necessary. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 21:28:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 21:28:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16642 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 21:28:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16638 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 21:28:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 21:28:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28D4D199BE; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:28:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 180C419A08 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from weyl.math.psu.edu (weyl.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.226]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19265 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (viro@localhost) by weyl.math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16582 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:27:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: weyl.math.psu.edu: viro owned process doing -bs From: Alexander Viro To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:27:01 -0500 (EST) On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, ozan s yigit wrote: > > fyi: this is published in the last issue of 2600. > http://www.phrack.org/show.php?p=58&a=12 Ah, yes - "if you run it hosted under Windows and host is compromised, it's very insecure" and it goes downwards from there. Right there with "suppose attacker got enough priveleges to run arbitrary code in kernel mode. You know, the system can be fscked real hard after that! We couldn't figure out how to achieve , but here's how to " (two articles in the same issue). Overall: "Looking for real vulnerabilities is tough - let's go shopping!" Piss-poor... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 22:01:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 22:01:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16913 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 22:01:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16909 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 22:01:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 22:01:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 50551199BC; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:01:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5910F19A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 51385 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 12:59:36 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 12:59:36 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] "a pox on the things." [uk keyboards] Message-Id: <20020205125936.5f93c2cf.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3C5FC5E3.1B1A7F9F@strakt.com> References: <20020205112826.5461c636.matt@proweb.co.uk> <3C5FC5E3.1B1A7F9F@strakt.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:59:36 +0000 On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:45:39 +0100 "Boyd Roberts" wrote: > > but can't find out how to stop having to search my kb for the characters> > Have you seen the /dev/kbmap stuff? I tried the one from : http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/ftpdir/plan9/kbmap.tgz 03-Nov-1997 but pckbd.bod fails (kbd.c is not the original) but seeing as it's in the "Software for the Second Edition (1995)" section I was hoping it had made it into the main distribution by now got a more modern URL er URI, (plus la change) M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 23:01:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 23:01:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17460 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 23:01:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17456 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 23:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 23:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A1B9A19A0B; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:01:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2AADD19A17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 08:59:55 EST 2002 Received: from cc583254b ([208.192.101.3]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 08:59:54 EST 2002 Message-ID: <007d01c1ae4d$9e0c3700$0365c0d0@cc583254b> From: "david presotto" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: <20020205105739.AF44019999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:01:31 -0500 Actually, I'ld be seriously worried about our ability to add DLL support without major bugs. It adds a lot of complexity that spans the VM model, security, and compilers. A lot of Plan 9's speed and usefulness arises from its simplicity and this would be a major step in away from that, not that we haven't been whores before. A major drawback right now is that, unless we change our MMU handling in a drastic way, we have to run the shared library at the same addresses in all programs. Might be a bit of a problem (unless we go to 64 bit addressing). The current MMU model with its lazy evaluation and no need for a intermachine shootdown is quite elegant and I'm not sanguine to lose it just for DLL's. As Geoff states, we don't seem to be losing out by not having them, vis a vis memory size. Some things would be more efficiently done with a shared library, shared databases for example. I'm just not yet prepared to pay the price in increased complexity. Others may be. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 23:07:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 23:07:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17508 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 23:07:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17504 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 23:07:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 23:07:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C6C61199BB; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:07:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 87DA31999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15E4mpZ021445 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:04:48 +0100 Message-ID: <3C5FE6E2.27208B3F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] "a pox on the things." [uk keyboards] References: <20020205112826.5461c636.matt@proweb.co.uk> <3C5FC5E3.1B1A7F9F@strakt.com> <20020205125936.5f93c2cf.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:06:26 +0100 Matt H wrote: > got a more modern URL er URI, (plus la change) this needs work, but it does work: http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/code/plan9/kbd.tar [plus =E7a change, plus la m=EAme chose] From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 23:25:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 23:25:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17677 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 23:25:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17673 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 23:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 23:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 99F63199EC; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:25:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ohio.river.org (river.org [192.160.193.125]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 381ED199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ru@localhost) by ohio.river.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA18255; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:24:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200202051424.GAA18255@ohio.river.org> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Richard Uhtenwoldt Subject: [9fans] code complexity Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 06:24:17 -0800 (PST) Most of the people on this list value "elegance" in source code. To them, a solution that requires 1000 lines of code is almost always better than one that requires 10,000 lines as long as both solutions solve the same set of problems. Let us use the phrase "code complexity" or "software complexity" to refer to the mental effort needed to understand a piece of code. Number of lines of source code, excluding comments, is the easiest measure for estimating code complexity. Whereas the people on this list tend to view code complexity as a cost to be minimized/pessimized, many people --including probably most programmers-- do not. They may object to "code bloat" as a waste of memory or cpu cycles or diskspace, but that is a different thing than objecting to large source code sizes because they makes the code unnecessarily difficult to understand, maintain and modify. Some people actually welcome code complexity, eg, some managers and economists even today measures programmer "productivity" in lines of source code produced. Few on this list are going to disagree with the statement that the popular desktop and server platforms are significantly more complex than necessary. but some numbers might be fun. The Debian distribution of Linux contained 55,000,000 lines of code as of 18 months ago. (Includes all software including very specialized stuff, eg, specialized for plane pilots, doctors, etc.) Probably double that now. http://people.debian.org/~jgb/debian-counting/ the Mozilla web browser over 2,000,000 lines. gcc 984,000. I did not inquire whether that included the g++ code to compile C++. http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/summary The idea that complexity is a cost to be minimized is not new. Dijkstra devoted his Turing Award lecture to it in 1972 ("The Humble Programmer"). And yet, it is still decidedly a minority view, even among programmers. Why? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 5 23:49:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 5 23:49:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17810 invoked by uid 1020); 5 Feb 2002 23:49:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17806 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 23:49:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 23:49:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C36E199B3; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:49:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9611419A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 52602 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 14:47:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 14:47:57 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity Message-Id: <20020205144757.517735c3.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200202051424.GAA18255@ohio.river.org> References: <200202051424.GAA18255@ohio.river.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:47:57 +0000 > And yet, it is still decidedly a minority view, even > among programmers. Why? I reckon it's from not having to fit everything into 1k, 16k, 32k, 64k, 640k or 24 lines or over 9600 baud there won't be too many more Mels http://tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Story-of-Mel.html Matt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 00:32:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 00:32:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18152 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 00:32:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18148 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 00:32:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 00:32:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B02C19A0D; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:32:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 39E14199A3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Y7Ct-0000vX-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:08:27 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ozan s yigit Message-ID: Organization: York University References: , Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:08:09 GMT viro@math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro) writes: > Ah, yes - "if you run it hosted under Windows and host is compromised, > it's very insecure" and it goes downwards from there. right. i did not offer editorial commentary, just the pointer. so far as i can tell, it is the only article of its kind on those circles on inferno and it even mentions plan9. oz -- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | don't count your chickens in glass houses york u. computer science | until the cows come home. -- david vestal From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 00:35:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 00:35:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18221 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 00:35:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18217 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 00:35:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 00:35:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE3D819A05; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:35:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 81F6F19999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1068229 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0700 Received: (qmail 8580 invoked by uid 3499); 5 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020204160035.025616c0@mail.real.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:32:51 -0700 (MST) On Mon, 4 Feb 2002 skipt@real.com wrote: > >see any old burroughs stack machine. Or the i286. Compilers do not > >necessarily need to cooperate. > > Do you mean systems that had hardware like this memory bank switch: > > http://home.swipnet.se/~w-68269/z80_mmu.pdf actually just about everybody did that one with the z80. Lots of companies (HP, TI, etc.) used z80s in embedded service, and ca. 1981 began to put in bank-switch schemes. And no, the burroughs did not work like that at all. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:02:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:02:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18513 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:02:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18509 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:02:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:02:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B11DE199E8; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:02:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0E8FF1999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 53514 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 16:01:24 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 16:01:24 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] Message-Id: <20020205160123.34bbd677.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:01:23 +0000 > it is the only article of its kind on those circles on > inferno and it even mentions plan9. security through obscurity indeed I get a false sense of security from using FreeBSD rather than Linux Until "The Big Day" Glenda arrives at our colocator Actually that does throw up a question for me (& not one that *needs* answering any time soon) If my machine is 150 miles away how will I press enter to tell it to boot from local & how is it possible to prevent the col-locators using it from the terminal. (not that I expect them to but ...) M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:11:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:11:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18642 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:11:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18638 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:11:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:11:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9E2941999B; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:11:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0DB6519999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1070732 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 09:06:21 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 09:06:21 -0700 Received: (qmail 8776 invoked by uid 3499); 5 Feb 2002 09:06:20 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 09:06:20 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: <871yg0ln64.fsf@becket.becket.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:06:20 -0700 (MST) > geoff@collyer.net writes: > > Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in > > OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of > > dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic > > libraries. and in the worst case you'll end up where GNU is now, with symbol versioning, 21 different versions of opendir in glibc, and so on an so on. Watching a simple 'ls' do hundreds of symbol fixups is really enlightening. Especially when so many of them are for the same symbol with slight variations on the name. My simple, formerly working, libc-based private name spaces are still totally hosed due to this nonsense. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:15:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:15:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18669 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:15:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18665 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:15:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:15:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 757DE19981; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:15:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A8B25199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15GCWpZ023301 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:12:32 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6004D4.39DC3014@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] References: <20020205160123.34bbd677.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:14:12 +0100 Matt H wrote: > I get a false sense of security from using FreeBSD rather than Linux Hmm ... brucee@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > *** {02.04.030} Linux - UML kernel memory access > > User-Mode-Linux version 2.4.17-8 has been found to allow normal users > within a UML Linux environment to change around system syscalls and > access kernel memory, thereby allows them to gain root access both > inside and outside the UML environment. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:21:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:21:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18720 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:21:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18716 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:21:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:21:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C615B199D5; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:21:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 173E0199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:19:57 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020205161957.173E0199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:17:11 -0500 // If my machine is 150 miles away how will I press enter to // tell it to boot from local... the cpu server kernel will time out if given a default in plan9.ini. i think it's the 'bootargs=' line, but i could be wrong. // ...how is it possible to prevent the col-locators using it from // the terminal. hmm... i guess you could just not run rio and exec something out of cpurc that tied up the console (i've done that for other reasons with a simple tail -f of various logs), but it'd be nicer to retain the ability to use the console yourself (even remotely, like via the Avanstar). the patches to get a terminal and cpu server on the same box might be relavant, too. they're out of date, but can be found here: http://www.fywss.com/plan9/info/misc/cpu_terminal more generally speaking, though, i'd say if you don't trust your colo enough to not dink around on your console, all bets are off... ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:27:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:27:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18744 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:27:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18740 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:27:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:27:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AB79219A08; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:27:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1DAAE1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15GOZpZ023650 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:24:35 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6007A7.5C6F6CC9@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] security of inferno os [ptr] References: <20020205160123.34bbd677.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:26:15 +0100 Matt H wrote: > If my machine is 150 miles away how will I press enter to tell it to boot > from local & how is it possible to prevent the col-locators using it from > the terminal. (not that I expect them to but ...) Have you checked out reboot(8)? http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/8/reboot It might not be _exactly_ what you want, but it might be a clue. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:35:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:35:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18807 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:35:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18803 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:35:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:35:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1B6FA19A29; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:35:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E009C19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:34:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <37088672ac32055400db1684d3dfae65@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:34:51 -0500 I don't really feel like most of those line counts are comparable, since it's not clear how much is there. If you want something else that is not really comparable, note that the TeX add-on package for Plan 9 is almost the same size as the "everything else" base package. As for why, there certainly exists a small class of programmers that actively believes writing complex programs is just macho. To them, I admit: I am not man enough to keep up with your layers upon layers of complexity. When I run into code they have written, I inevitably complain to whoever will listen until I get fed up enough to rewrite it. To some extent, Mel is in this class, although he understands programs as craft too. At the same time, I think most programmers just don't understand that programs are intended to be read by humans. They fiddle until it works and then don't see the point to doing it over again in a cleaner, simpler, more elegant manner. Especially if someone is being measured by some bogus productivity metric like like lines of code written, papers published, or problem sets handed in. Good programming is like good writing in any subject; it happens only by much revision and practice. The sad thing is that at least in my experience, introductory programming courses just don't get that across. (In fact, in my experience most writing courses state that but then do a poor job of backing it up.) I helped to teach an introductory computer science theory course for three years, and we had the same problems there. Students didn't see any point to distilling a correct yet awkward proof down to its essence; after all, it was correct, wasn't it? (I don't know if this was natural or they got it from taking intro to programming the year before.) Even so, we didn't give much opportunity to help them rewrite their proofs. We did hand out the best most elegant proofs we had on the solution sets, and I think that helped somewhat, but I'm still not sure how many internalized the message. End of rant. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:40:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:40:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18879 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:40:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18875 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:40:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:40:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7521E19A1C; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:40:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 951FB19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15GcApZ024007 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:38:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3C600AD6.8ABA5729@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity References: <37088672ac32055400db1684d3dfae65@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:39:50 +0100 Russ Cox wrote: > As for why, there certainly exists a small class of programmers > that actively believes writing complex programs is > just macho. Bad programmers build complex stuff because they can and they get away with it most of the time, until it all comes crashing down. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:42:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:42:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18893 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:42:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18889 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:42:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:42:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 96DD119A00; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:42:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B6FF6199BC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:41:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:41:06 -0500 > Bad programmers build complex stuff because they can and they get > away with it most of the time, until it all comes crashing down. That was the second paragraph. I assert the existence of good programmers who just believe that making complex things is cool. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:42:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:42:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18908 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:42:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18904 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:42:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:42:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4FAAF19A55; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:42:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta06ps.bigpond.com (mta06ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.138]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AEE5019A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from acm.org ([144.135.25.87]) by mta06ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GR2JXF00.9TH for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:46:27 +1000 Received: from CPE-144-136-80-227.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([144.136.80.227]) by psmam07.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 125/7162407); 06 Feb 2002 02:39:13 Message-ID: <3C600AB2.128AC713@acm.org> From: Graham Gallagher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Font behaviour Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 03:39:14 +1100 I've been creating a range of fonts via a truetype to font(6) bitmap generator I wrote. One thing I noticed was that when trying to render characters possessing a zero width escapement value, they were transmogrified into PJW. This is really annoying because some glyphs, Thai vowels and tones for instance, are intentionally designed to have zero width escapement vectors for ease of placement. Investigation of loadchar() in libdraw/font.c (image/font.c under Inferno) reveals that indeed a test is made to check for zero width characters. Is there a reason why this test can't be removed? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 01:43:10 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 01:43:10 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18915 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 01:43:09 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18911 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 01:43:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 01:43:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EAFE119A2A; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:43:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F3BAD19A56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1078036 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 09:42:10 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 09:42:10 -0700 Received: (qmail 8859 invoked by uid 3499); 5 Feb 2002 09:42:09 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 09:42:09 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity In-Reply-To: <3C600AD6.8ABA5729@strakt.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:42:09 -0700 (MST) On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Boyd Roberts wrote: > Russ Cox wrote: > > As for why, there certainly exists a small class of programmers > > that actively believes writing complex programs is > > just macho. > > Bad programmers build complex stuff because they can and they get > away with it most of the time, until it all comes crashing down. or they just start from a design point that seems simple, and they don't know enough to know that because they picked the wrong starting point it's going to grow into a large complicated ugly ball of tar. Like Linux. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 02:20:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 02:20:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19110 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 02:20:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19106 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 02:20:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 02:20:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C60FD199B7; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:20:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EC57019981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 12:19:15 EST 2002 Received: from cc583254b ([208.192.101.23]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 12:19:14 EST 2002 Message-ID: <003d01c1ae69$767283e0$1765c0d0@cc583254b> From: "david presotto" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> References: Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:20:51 -0500 Simplicity pretty much goes out the window when you try to keep up with the world since the world isn't simple. Try to build a browser that supports just enough to get along with the pages that are out there and you still end up with something bigger than Plan 9 no matter how hard you work at it. The question however is not the total size of the code but the complexity of the internal interactions. If one added as many device drivers to Plan 9 as one has in Windows or Linux, our code base would be truly huge also. However, the complexity of any instance of plan 9 wouldn't be anygreater because the vast body of device drivers do not interact with each other and any particular instance will have a small selection of them in use. They all follow pretty much the same API talking to the kernel and to programs and that API is not very large. It would be nice if such an approach could be applied to a browser. I haven't seen the inards of Opera, so perhaps it has. It definitely isn't true of netscape or exploder. One of the problems of uncontrolled excess is that API's tend to get very wide to cover all possible corners. (The same is true of in other arenas, hence the current cross over cars that are SUV's, compacts, luxury cars, and trucks all built into one.) The wider the API, the larger the number of interactions with that piece of code and everything that interfaces with it. We've tried to keep API's small to avoid that, i.e., put in what's absolutely necessary and drag our heels on everything else. However, that means saying no to a lot of people with real problems, people we ignore in order to keep our playland comprehensible. To that extent Linux is much truer to the ideals of an open market than Plan 9 or BSD. If something it wanted by enough people, it appears no matter what it does to the complexity or supportability of the code. This leads back into the DLL discussion because, once someone has DLL's, they tend to feel that the size of the API no longer matters, everyone will be sharing the code bloat so why bother keeping things small. There's nothing inherent in the existence of DLL's that causes this, it's just human nature. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 02:23:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 02:23:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19138 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 02:23:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19134 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 02:23:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 02:23:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F1FC319A04; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:23:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B6AE819992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:22:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34fa0649f0edeb10b2f67a3a4f9f71fc@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-mrupstnyamdkoforcyddmptxwx" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:22:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-mrupstnyamdkoforcyddmptxwx Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The library forbids zero-width characters because of two issues: 1) they introduce ambiguities into the selection and placement rules, in particular confusing the algorithm for character-at-position. 2) someone could print an unending stream of zero-width characters and fill up memory. One could argue that neither of these is a serious issue, and that both are raised somewhat by overstriking, which we do accept (badly, at least in rio), but I was troubled by them anyway. Plan 9's font code is quite primitive compared to what some systems do (and some languages require), but it's served well enough for our purposes. The solution I concocted for zero-width characters struck me as rather elegant, although I knew it would cause trouble for anyone who legitimately had a use for them. 1) characters absent from the font are by definition zero-width. 2) all zero width characters are rendered as PJWs. In a stroke, this made sparse Unicode fonts bearable. You can take out the code that does this, but I think you'll raise some other issues because of other code that depends on those properties. A better solution might be to write a special operator that always draws the character - it's a trivial call to draw(). The real solution is a complete redesign of the character handling model to deal with all languages, right-to-left, Arabic letter-form-mutations, etc. etc. It's beyond my knowledge. -rob --upas-mrupstnyamdkoforcyddmptxwx Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 11:42:24 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Tue Feb 5 11:42:23 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5F0A019A2D; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:42:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta06ps.bigpond.com (mta06ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.138]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AEE5019A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from acm.org ([144.135.25.87]) by mta06ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GR2JXF00.9TH for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:46:27 +1000 Received: from CPE-144-136-80-227.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([144.136.80.227]) by psmam07.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 125/7162407); 06 Feb 2002 02:39:13 Message-ID: <3C600AB2.128AC713@acm.org> From: Graham Gallagher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Font behaviour Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 03:39:14 +1100 I've been creating a range of fonts via a truetype to font(6) bitmap generator I wrote. One thing I noticed was that when trying to render characters possessing a zero width escapement value, they were transmogrified into PJW. This is really annoying because some glyphs, Thai vowels and tones for instance, are intentionally designed to have zero width escapement vectors for ease of placement. Investigation of loadchar() in libdraw/font.c (image/font.c under Inferno) reveals that indeed a test is made to check for zero width characters. Is there a reason why this test can't be removed? --upas-mrupstnyamdkoforcyddmptxwx-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 02:42:52 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 02:42:52 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19261 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 02:42:52 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19257 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 02:42:51 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 02:42:51 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A8E55199B3; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:42:46 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ms0.nttdata.co.jp (ms0.nttdata.co.jp [163.135.193.231]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3124A19A2F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.nttdata.co.jp ([163.135.10.21]) by ms0.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-11/07/01) with ESMTP id CAA09064 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:41:01 +0900 (JST) From: iwanek@nttdata.co.jp Received: from noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-11/07/01) with ESMTP id CAA03018 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:40:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp [10.1.49.13]) by noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id CAA26975 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:38:54 +0900 (JST) Received: by noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:40:14 +0900 Message-ID: <50F591D39557D511B12C0090274DCEBC03E588D7@noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:40:12 +0900 On a related topic, what does people on this list think of Extreme Programming (XP)? XP is supposed to encourage - writing readable code through pair programming, - avoiding code bloat by refactoring, but I have a feeling this is just a literature. I, for one, enjoyed and profited from reading "The Practice of Programming" so much more than reading any XP documents so far. Is anyone practicing XP? Does it help at all to reduce code complexity? - kazumi From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 03:01:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 03:01:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19350 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 03:01:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19346 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 03:01:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 03:01:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CF5A219992; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:01:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1A3A019A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g15HlwpZ024572 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:47:58 +0100 Message-ID: <3C601B33.DB8558E6@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) References: <50F591D39557D511B12C0090274DCEBC03E588D7@noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:49:39 +0100 iwanek@nttdata.co.jp wrote: > > On a related topic, what does people on this list think of > Extreme Programming (XP)? I think it's the bleeding obvious that's turned into a religion. > Is anyone practicing XP? We do, but not to the point of zealotry. > Does it help at all to reduce code complexity? Yes, 'cos someone will say: Why did you write that complex junk? Or the complex junk never gets written in the first place [pair programming]. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 05:37:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 05:37:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20111 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 05:37:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20107 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 05:37:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 05:37:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 01C5E1998C; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:37:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8752F19A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from D98ZX501 ([63.203.52.226]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id PAA18072; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:24:51 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] From: "philw" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: [9fans] code complexity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1AE40.1B10F280" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <37088672ac32055400db1684d3dfae65@plan9.bell-labs.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:24:47 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1AE40.1B10F280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ's rant is academic. Many programmers write code to make revenue. I care the code is simple because that makes it maintainable. Program complexity has a lot to do with style. It can be taught. I live with bad code often because I have more work than I can possibly do in a given time and I must buy lots of code that I integrate with my product. I am rarely pleased with code from stack vendors. Good programmers are expensive and my hiring follows a gausian: some very good, some very bad most in the middle. I have few chances to revisit anything since I could be writing code which generates more revenue. That means I clean up what absolutley must be maintainable then test and forget the rest. Programming is an art - few people in industry have the luxury of enjoying it on the macro scale because they work with a large group that has unreasonable deadlines and business constraints beyond the engineering. Sometimes I pine for the good old days .... phil -----Original Message----- From: Russ Cox [mailto:rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:35 AM To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity I don't really feel like most of those line counts are comparable, since it's not clear how much is there. If you want something else that is not really comparable, note that the TeX add-on package for Plan 9 is almost the same size as the "everything else" base package. As for why, there certainly exists a small class of programmers that actively believes writing complex programs is just macho. To them, I admit: I am not man enough to keep up with your layers upon layers of complexity. When I run into code they have written, I inevitably complain to whoever will listen until I get fed up enough to rewrite it. To some extent, Mel is in this class, although he understands programs as craft too. At the same time, I think most programmers just don't understand that programs are intended to be read by humans. They fiddle until it works and then don't see the point to doing it over again in a cleaner, simpler, more elegant manner. Especially if someone is being measured by some bogus productivity metric like like lines of code written, papers published, or problem sets handed in. Good programming is like good writing in any subject; it happens only by much revision and practice. The sad thing is that at least in my experience, introductory programming courses just don't get that across. (In fact, in my experience most writing courses state that but then do a poor job of backing it up.) I helped to teach an introductory computer science theory course for three years, and we had the same problems there. Students didn't see any point to distilling a correct yet awkward proof down to its essence; after all, it was correct, wasn't it? (I don't know if this was natural or they got it from taking intro to programming the year before.) Even so, we didn't give much opportunity to help them rewrite their proofs. We did hand out the best most elegant proofs we had on the solution sets, and I think that helped somewhat, but I'm still not sure how many internalized the message. End of rant. Russ ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1AE40.1B10F280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [9fans] code complexity

Russ's rant is academic. Many programmers write = code
to make revenue. I care the code is simple because = that
makes it maintainable. Program complexity has a lot = to do
with style. It can be taught. I live with bad code = often because
I have more work than I can possibly do in a given = time and
I must buy lots of code that I integrate with my = product. I am
rarely pleased with code from stack vendors. = Good
programmers are expensive and my hiring follows a = gausian:
some very good, some very bad most in the middle. I = have few
chances to revisit anything since I could be writing = code
which generates more revenue. That means I clean up = what absolutley
must be maintainable then test and forget the = rest.

Programming is an art - few people in industry have = the luxury
of enjoying it on the macro scale because they work = with a large
group that has unreasonable deadlines and business = constraints
beyond the engineering.

Sometimes I pine for the good old days ....

phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Russ Cox [mailto:rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:35 AM
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity


I don't really feel like most of those line = counts
are comparable, since it's not clear how much is =
there.  If you want something else that is = not
really comparable, note that the TeX add-on = package
for Plan 9 is almost the same size as the = "everything else"
base package.

As for why, there certainly exists a small class of = programmers
that actively believes writing complex programs = is
just macho.  To them, I admit: I am not man = enough to
keep up with your layers upon layers of = complexity.
When I run into code they have written, I = inevitably
complain to whoever will listen until I get fed = up
enough to rewrite it.  To some extent, Mel is in = this
class, although he understands programs as craft = too.

At the same time, I think most programmers just = don't
understand that programs are intended to be read by = humans.
They fiddle until it works and then don't see the = point
to doing it over again in a cleaner, simpler, more = elegant
manner.  Especially if someone is being measured = by some
bogus productivity metric like like lines of code = written,
papers published, or problem sets handed in.

Good programming is like good writing in any = subject;
it happens only by much revision and practice.  = The sad
thing is that at least in my experience, = introductory
programming courses just don't get that across.  = (In fact,
in my experience most writing courses state that but = then
do a poor job of backing it up.)  I helped to = teach an
introductory computer science theory course for three = years,
and we had the same problems there.  Students = didn't
see any point to distilling a correct yet awkward = proof
down to its essence; after all, it was correct, = wasn't it?
(I don't know if this was natural or they got it = from
taking intro to programming the year before.)
Even so, we didn't give much opportunity to = help
them rewrite their proofs.  We did hand out the = best
most elegant proofs we had on the solution = sets,
and I think that helped somewhat, but I'm still = not
sure how many internalized the message.

End of rant.
Russ

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C1AE40.1B10F280-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 05:44:03 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 05:44:03 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20151 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 05:44:03 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20147 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 05:44:03 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 05:44:03 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6F303199EC; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:43:57 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE749199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00380 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:37:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202052037.PAA00380@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:56:54 GMT." <20020205105654.0107e6d7.matt@proweb.co.uk> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:37:19 -0500 Cool. The thing is, though, VN has *got* to get rid of those V-necks. No offense, guys, but...damn. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 06:51:38 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 06:51:38 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20324 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 06:51:38 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20320 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 06:51:37 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 06:51:37 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 86F011999B; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:51:32 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 122A7199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:43:11 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020205214311.122A7199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:40:34 -0500 really? personally, i prefer the v-neck T's. anyway, modulo current stock, both the current Plan 9 and Inferno T's are the more "modern" round collar, at least in North America. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 07:02:30 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 07:02:30 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20371 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 07:02:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20367 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 07:02:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 07:02:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE76B199D5; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:02:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B8F5D199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:54:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16223 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:53:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202052153.QAA16223@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:40:34 EST." <20020205214311.122A7199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:53:30 -0500 > really? personally, i prefer the v-neck T's. anyway, > modulo current stock, both the current Plan 9 and > Inferno T's are the more "modern" round collar, at > least in North America. Hey man, cut me some slack; I live in New York City. If you're not already wearing a black turtle neck and penny loafers, your considered fashionally inept.... Well, maybe now it's ``business casual.'' Besides, 12 years of skateboarding have taught me the value of the sweat-absorbing round-neck T. - Dan C. (No, I have no idea of round collar T-shirts really absorb more or less sweat than any other type of T-shirt, nor am I really all that motivated to go and find out.... :-) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 07:33:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 07:33:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20545 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 07:33:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20541 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 07:33:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 07:33:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E507419999; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:33:15 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from real.com (murrow2k1.real.com [207.188.7.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 00EC9199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from skipt.real.com ([172.21.104.107]) by real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g15MJr0v015656; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:19:53 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205141713.02f654d0@mail.real.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: skipt@real.com Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt In-Reply-To: <20020205214311.122A7199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:34:47 -0800 I like the shirt, but the v is a little weird with a big neck. I'd prefer no v's, or a regular collar, long sleeve and a big glenda on the back. (sign me up for two/year) At 04:40 PM 2/5/2002 -0500, anothy@cosym.net wrote: >really? personally, i prefer the v-neck T's. anyway, >modulo current stock, both the current Plan 9 and >Inferno T's are the more "modern" round collar, at >least in North America. >=E3=82=A2 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 07:40:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 07:40:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20574 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 07:40:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20570 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 07:40:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 07:40:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 33F5C199A3; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 103FD199A3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24009 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:29:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202052229.RAA24009@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:34:51 EST." <37088672ac32055400db1684d3dfae65@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:28:56 -0500 > [...] I helped to teach an > introductory computer science theory course for three years, > and we had the same problems there. Students didn't > see any point to distilling a correct yet awkward proof > down to its essence; after all, it was correct, wasn't it? > (I don't know if this was natural or they got it from > taking intro to programming the year before.) > Even so, we didn't give much opportunity to help > them rewrite their proofs. We did hand out the best > most elegant proofs we had on the solution sets, > and I think that helped somewhat, but I'm still not > sure how many internalized the message. Hmm, interesting. Programming is more or less isomorphic to mathematics in this respect, as you point out; it's all about generalization and abstraction, but too often individuals fail to perceive the value of either. I think that the problems students encounter in both come from the same place; essentially a fear of math and math-related subjects. People don't want to understand *how* something works, they just want to see *what* to do with it. A large part of that comes from the public school system (at least, this is true in the USA). People get so convinced so early on that math is something that they can't get their heads around because they're `taught' by people who are inept and don't have their heads around math to start with and teach it the wrong way. The self-defeating idea that ``I can't do it'' follows a person, and perpetuates itself through higher education. The result is that students don't understand what's behind the symbols in math, and just memorize equations and theorems to pass the tests. They might have some understanding of how the numbers and symbols fit together, but they're still eluded by the higher mathematical ``truth,'' and even worse, they don't think of themselves as capable of understanding it. When they get out of school they collectively breath a sigh of relief and say, ``Ahh, I never have to care about that ever again.'' When something math related comes up later on, they mostly go into dummy mode and just slog through it, all the while beset my flashbacks to less happy days in which they were forced to slog through similar, seemingly incomprehensible equations and so on to get a decent grade. This is especially true amongst scientists and engineers. For instance, does anyone really know *why* the result of the cross-product is called a pseudovector? Hmm, perhaps present company should be excluded from my sweeping generalizations, but you get the picture. Anyway, back to programming; it's just too close to math for a lot of people. Probably because, in a sense, it is math. But again, it's something they feel very despondent about, and don't want to get into other than at a superficial level. Anyway, this post is much too long and rambling. The point is that the average programmer doesn't see elegance or generality as something to strive for, because he or she hasn't seen that as something useful since the age of 5. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 07:49:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 07:49:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20605 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 07:49:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20601 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 07:49:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 07:49:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 83811199BE; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:49:22 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A7E59199A3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 56932 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2002 22:35:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Feb 2002 22:35:59 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new style t-shirt Message-Id: <20020205223558.0f0038d9.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020205214311.122A7199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020205214311.122A7199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:35:58 +0000 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:40:34 -0500 "anothy@cosym.net" wrote: > really? personally, i prefer the v-neck T's. anyway, > modulo current stock, both the current Plan 9 and > Inferno T's are the more "modern" round collar, at > least in North America. bah my achronistic culture is that v-necks are for females! I've always bought round but hey, now I've got 2 v necks (another accident), I don't actually care, at least it doesn't reveal any hairy cleavage. It's well made and I'm sure the transfer will last plenty of washes. The FreeBSD one I got for Christmas is about a 48" chest and looked a bit ridiculous before I gave it a hot wash! To keep up with FreeBSD we need some plan9 underwear : http://www.freebsdmall.com/cgi-bin/fm/bsdboxer and a beanie glenda! M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 09:25:39 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 09:25:39 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21399 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 09:25:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21395 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 09:25:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 09:25:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6211E199BC; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:25:36 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (collyer.ca [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2FBC619981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:13:39 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) From: geoff@collyer.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:10:00 -0800 I haven't read enough about XP to comment on most of it, but I dislike the idea of pair programming. There's nothing wrong with someone else reading my code, but I need some quiet and calm to program, so having someone nattering in my ear, second-guessing me is going to be a disaster. And how is the other member of the pair selected? Having someone you don't like or don't agree with as your partner would be even more galling. It would be like being part of a team that isn't self-selected but imposed by management (actually a ``team'' in that case, since it's not real). And how do you program at home or when travelling? Pick some random person as your partner? Go it alone? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 09:41:39 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 09:41:39 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21651 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 09:41:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21647 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 09:41:39 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 09:41:39 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B024F199B7; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:41:36 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C0E9419A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:30:15 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020206003015.C0E9419A00@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] max file size in an fs Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:26:36 -0500 is the max file size for a file on a plan 9 file server the same as for a kfs file system with the same block size? that is, does the guide below still apply? 6 + iba + iba*iba iba = blocksize/sizeof(ulong) also, any way to get the block size of a running file server? i _think_ i remember what i built this one with, but i'm not sure. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:05:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:05:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22043 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:05:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22039 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:05:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:05:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDFA019A05; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:05:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cumin.apnic.net (cumin.apnic.net [202.12.29.59]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 687F519A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from apnic.net (hadrian.apnic.net [202.12.29.249]) by cumin.apnic.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g160OgKa031417 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:24:43 +1000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 16:10:00 -0800." <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: <16689.1012955390@apnic.net> From: George Michaelson X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.1 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:29:50 +1000 I've been told DLLs include some smarts about code introspection so you can find out whats in the damn things sensibly, runtime and know how to interact with them. I would have thought there were simple ways to do that, and Its not such a bad idea to include a call which tells you what to pass in, to talk to the external bindings made visible inside the package. -George -- George Michaelson | APNIC Email: ggm@apnic.net | PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064 Phone: +61 7 3367 0490 | Australia Fax: +61 7 3367 0482 | http://www.apnic.net From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:14:59 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:14:59 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22261 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:14:59 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22256 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:14:54 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:14:54 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EB7F199BB; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:14:52 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DB96C199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 57825 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 00:42:07 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 00:42:07 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] upas/fs -f/imap faltering start Message-Id: <20020206004206.69d1caf5.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020130003227.2641ed50.matt@proweb.co.uk> References: <20020130002340.DEAAE19A02@mail.cse.psu.edu> <20020130003227.2641ed50.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:42:06 +0000 > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:23:39 -0500 > "Russ Cox" wrote: > > > it sounds like /sys/src/cmd/upas/fs/imap4.c:/^imap4resp > > should be ignoring lines that begin with INFO; > > i'd check the imap rfc 2060 to be sure. > > not a hard fix if so. after "fixing" that & wading through the rfc and hours of hacking I discovered that it was because Courier was bound to 127.0.0.1 and if you connect to an other IP on the machine you get a PREAUTH to a dummy mailbox (user=user) so it was working fine! Well, it still doesn't connect properly (probably because /mnt/auth is missing on this stand alone box) I shall finish it off in the morning (even if it means hard coding the password just to get it working!) M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:21:44 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:21:44 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22378 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:21:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22374 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:21:43 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:21:43 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D3E3119A02; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:21:38 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 23AE0199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 57889 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 00:47:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 00:47:16 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] OT XP (was: code complexity) Message-Id: <20020206004716.72977f74.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:47:16 +0000 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:10:00 -0800 "geoff@collyer.net" wrote: > And how is the other member of the pair selected? On rotation so every programmer works on every part of the code (even if it's as a buddy) I suppose some ppl can go with it some can't (I've not tried) I guess it's like trying to do a painting in pairs It's basically on-going code review of every keystroke From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:29:08 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:29:08 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22500 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:29:08 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22496 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:29:07 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:29:07 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ED6EA19A26; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:29:04 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (collyer.net [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 809F3199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:59:20 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max file size in an fs From: geoff@collyer.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020206005920.809F3199B9@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:56:49 -0800 For kfs and the standalone file server, you have to subtract 8 bytes for the block tag from the blocksize first: iba = (blocksize - 8)/sizeof(ulong) then 6+iba+ibaâ² yields the maximum number of addressible blocks in a single file, so multiple by (blocksize - 8) to get maximum bytes. The maximum size of a single file on such a file server can't exceed 2â³â±-1 bytes either. One way to derive block size is run a check and divide the size of the partition or disk holding the file system by the number of total blocks reported by check. The result will be off by epsilon since there are a few blocks of overhead at the start of the file system. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:35:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:35:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22620 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:35:11 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22616 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:35:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:35:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C29C19A08; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:35:04 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from green.cs.yorku.ca (mailhub.ariel.cs.yorku.ca [130.63.92.20]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6F13019A29 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.63.90.22] (blue.cs.yorku.ca) by green.cs.yorku.ca id 2460; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:01:14 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity References: <37088672ac32055400db1684d3dfae65@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: ozan s yigit In-Reply-To: philw@entrisphere.com's message of "Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:42:44 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.7 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: 05 Feb 2002 20:01:14 -0500 philw@entrisphere.com (philw) writes: > Programming is an art - few people in industry have the luxury > of enjoying it on the macro scale because they work with a large > group that has unreasonable deadlines and business constraints > beyond the engineering. exactly. ever since i left yorku in 94 (these days i work for sun) i've been trying to clean up crappy code written to meet deadlines at any cost. it is very very depressing. even if it started great, it eventually got hacked to the ground. the only chance is to get as many good programmers you can for the initial product, and after that, hope for the best. :) hope your venture is going well. oz -- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | don't count your chickens in glass houses york u. computer science | until the cows come home. -- david vestal From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 10:45:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 10:45:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22805 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 10:45:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22801 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 10:45:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 10:45:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DAA38199B3; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:45:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8036119A29 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:44:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max file size in an fs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 20:43:44 -0500 > any way to get the block size of a running file server fs=/dev/sdC0/fs blksz=`{xd -c $fs |grep 110 |sed 1q | sed 's/^....... (.) (.) (.) (.).*/\1\2\3\4/'} From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 11:17:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 11:17:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23294 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 11:17:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23290 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 11:17:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 11:17:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CCEBB19A17; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:17:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id ADADB19A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:16:51 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max file size in an fs From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020206021651.ADADB19A0B@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:16:46 -0500 thanks russ, but i mean a dedicated file server. no /dev/sd* to look at... nice method for kfs, though... i'd been doing the division with what kfs check and ls -l gave me. yours is much faster. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 11:19:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 11:19:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23358 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 11:19:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23354 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 11:19:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 11:19:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D37E199E8; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:19:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9 (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0AE1A19A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:18:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <30fe3baced573212ca26ad6303d27498@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max file size in an fs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:18:56 -0500 isn't the file server block size hard coded into the kernel? look at the sources for the kernel you are booting. grep RBUFSIZE /sys/src/fs/yourkernel/dat.h From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 16:35:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 16:35:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28889 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 16:35:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28884 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 16:35:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 16:35:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E84EE19A2F; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:35:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E21F519A4A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk ([194.222.126.246] helo=localhost.localdomain) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 16YMaI-000JTG-0C for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:33:39 +0000 Received: from whitecrow (IDENT:steve@whitecrow [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27110; Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:06:27 GMT Message-Id: <200202052306.XAA27110@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: steve@localhost.localdomain Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity In-Reply-To: Message from "david presotto" of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:20:51 EST." <003d01c1ae69$767283e0$1765c0d0@cc583254b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Kilbane Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:06:27 +0000 I agree with presotto in that the real world induces complexity, but for a slightly different reason. Plan 9 is an example of a system where a problem can be solved at the "right" place, but most programmers don't have that luxury. They're playing in a very small corner of the field, and no matter how they complain, the rest of the field is not going to shift itself around to accommodate them. It doesn't matter that the change might produce a better system, because there's too much inertia, and too much already invested in the status quo. So programmers bung on their own little bit that solves their current problem, and move on. None of which excuses the ones who write isolated code and still make it complex. Code bloat, on the other hand, has another driving factor: it's often easier for someone to write something from scratch than learn their system well enough to realise that there's something already there that does it. That's just laziness. steve From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 18:46:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 18:46:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31046 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 18:46:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31042 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 18:46:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 18:46:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E936B19A2C; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:46:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0FA3519A55 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16YOSF-0004ck-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:33:27 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C60DC77.F099F721@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <34fa0649f0edeb10b2f67a3a4f9f71fc@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:33:05 GMT rob pike wrote: > 1) characters absent from the font are by definition zero-width. There's another usurpation of a meaningful in-band value to signal an exception. We gotta cut that out, it causes trouble eventually in almost every case I've ever sen. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 19:43:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 19:43:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31461 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 19:43:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31457 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 19:43:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 19:43:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6272B199E8; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:43:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EA56F19A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g16AeBpZ032547 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:40:12 +0100 Message-ID: <3C61087C.6E71A80F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) References: <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:42:04 +0100 geoff@collyer.net wrote: > I haven't read enough about XP to comment on most of it, but I dislike > the idea of pair programming. Depends of the circumstances. > There's nothing wrong with someone else > reading my code, but I need some quiet and calm to program, so having > someone nattering in my ear, second-guessing me is going to be a > disaster. And how is the other member of the pair selected? Well yeah, that is a problem. At least here we're a small group and are going in the same direction. Pair programming in a large group [real world] would be a disaster (unless you like being lectured or yelled at :). We don't do it that much, but sometimes we do, when we want to, with who we want to. Then again, I guess I am pair programming right now with a guy 30km away [we are discussing protocol implementation issues]. > Go it alone? I'd go for the 'go it alone' but call in for help when I/you need it. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 19:48:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 19:48:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31498 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 19:48:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31494 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 19:48:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 19:48:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9133F19A1C; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:48:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0132C19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g16AjVpZ032658 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:45:31 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6109BC.8F7D964B@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity References: <16689.1012955390@apnic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:47:24 +0100 George Michaelson wrote: > I've been told DLLs ... We have a terminology problem: shared library = unix thing DLL = windows thing They are not the same things. With a DLL all share its data; you do not get a copy. However, they are both evil. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 19:53:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 19:53:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31536 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 19:53:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31532 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 19:53:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 19:53:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 50EFB19A04; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:53:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CACCC199BE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 05:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g16AofpZ032740 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:50:41 +0100 Message-ID: <3C610AF2.B6415BCF@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour References: <34fa0649f0edeb10b2f67a3a4f9f71fc@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C60DC77.F099F721@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:52:34 +0100 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > There's another usurpation of a meaningful in-band value > to signal an exception. We gotta cut that out, it causes > trouble eventually in almost every case I've ever sen. Absolutely. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 21:18:33 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 21:18:33 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32396 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 21:18:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32392 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 21:18:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 21:18:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EC48A19A56; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:18:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 477B8199BC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:16:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3fc6314bb55bca32f5ec6a87ebfb5c19@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "rob pike" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:16:08 -0500 I don't exactly disagree, but there is no in-band data here. The zero-width character is not returned, it is processed. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 21:54:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 21:54:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32700 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 21:54:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32696 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 21:54:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 21:54:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 440FA199BC; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:54:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 159E619999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:53:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <57a36cb4b8ed79cd07504cd0d12d144b@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour From: "rob pike" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:53:06 -0500 > There's another usurpation of a meaningful in-band value > to signal an exception. We gotta cut that out, it causes > trouble eventually in almost every case I've ever sen. Platitudes are fine in their place - I've even written a few - but you have me at a disadvantage. My interface is out there to be criticised, yours is not. What do you propose to do to fix this problem? I have one suggestion. There are two kinds of zero-width runes, genuine and synthetic. (Actually there are three; the third is an exercise for the reader of the code.) The synthetic ones are not at issue, I believe - you need to do something when a character is missing from the font and no one, not even PJW, has argued that PJW is not an appropriate solution there. But perhaps we can break the symmetry in the code to distinguish the genuine zero-width runes and process them normally, with the understanding that something may break. You have the code; read it, try it, play with it. I'm about to get on a plane or I'd do some experimentation myself. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 22:06:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 22:06:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 322 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 22:06:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 317 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 22:06:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 22:06:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BC846199D5; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:06:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4023F19A2F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g16D1tpZ001129 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:01:55 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6129B5.E0FBCEFA@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour References: <57a36cb4b8ed79cd07504cd0d12d144b@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 14:03:49 +0100 rob pike wrote: > Platitudes are fine in their place ... I think the pjw solution is actually quite elegant. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 6 22:12:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 6 22:12:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 390 invoked by uid 1020); 6 Feb 2002 22:12:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 386 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 22:12:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 22:12:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 09E25199E4; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:12:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2AD6C199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 67157 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 13:11:46 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 13:11:46 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <20020206131146.6639e053.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] upas/fs -f/imap & Courier Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:11:46 +0000 Well I eventually got it to log in OK this bit relies on the text output of the OK message from the IMAP server which is imlpementation dependent and not part of the spec (see the OK line below for what Courier outputs) 272c276,277 < if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP4")==0) > if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP")==0) However even when I got it to log in it failed reading (debug output below) it ran out of lines to read and ended returning Eio ("i/o error") in this routine static char* imap4resp(Imap *imap) { char *line, *p, *ep, *q, *r, *verb; int n; while(p = Brdline(&imap->b, '\n')){ .. snip } return Eio; } <- * OK Courier-IMAP ready. Copyright 1998-2001 Double Precision, Inc. See COPYING for distribution information. -> 9x1 LOGIN matt $PASSWORD <- 9x1 OK LOGIN Ok. -> 9x2 SELECT Inbox <- * FLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen \Recent) <- * OK [PERMANENTFLAGS (\Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Seen)] Limited <- * 59 EXISTS <- * 0 RECENT <- * OK [UIDVALIDITY 1010939472] Ok <- 9x2 OK [READ-WRITE] Ok -> 9x3 STATUS Inbox (MESSAGES UIDVALIDITY) <- * STATUS "Inbox" (MESSAGES 59 UIDVALIDITY 1010939472) <- 9x3 OK STATUS Completed. -> 9x4 UID FETCH 352 RFC822.SIZE <- * 2 FETCH (UID 352 RFC822.SIZE 1749) <- 9x4 OK FETCH completed. -> 9x5 UID FETCH 352 RFC822.HEADER <- * 2 FETCH (UID 352 RFC822.HEADER {1305} <- 9x5 OK FETCH completed. -> 9x6 UID FETCH 352 RFC822.TEXT <- * 2 FETCH (UID 352 RFC822.TEXT {444} <- 9x6 OK FETCH completed. download 398: error in initial handshake download 399: error in initial handshake download 401: error in initial handshake .. .. one for each message in my Inbox! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 00:12:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 00:12:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1483 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 00:12:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1479 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 00:12:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 00:12:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E17EC19A2C; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:12:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 3BF3719A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 69500 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 15:11:47 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 15:11:47 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] upas/fs -f/imap & Courier - SOLVED Message-Id: <20020206151147.01cc6ec9.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020206131146.6639e053.matt@proweb.co.uk> References: <20020206131146.6639e053.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:11:47 +0000 Courier has a setting for maximum connections per IP, I had it set to the default(4) I bumped it up and now it's working just fine in file : /usr/local/etc/courier-imap/imapd MAXPERIP=40 here's the diffs again because I noticed my comments were bumping the line numbers : /sys/src/cmd/upas/fs/imap4.c 272c272 < if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP4")==0) --- > if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP")==0) 275c275 < snprint(buf, sizeof buf, "/mnt/auth/imap/%s/%s", imap->host, imap->user); --- > snprint(buf, sizeof buf, "/usr/matt/imappw/%s", imap->host); From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 03:53:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 03:53:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2751 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 03:53:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2747 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 03:53:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 03:53:11 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFAEC19A65; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:22:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wintermute.cse.psu.edu (unknown [130.203.8.5]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 02BA719A57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from quanstro.net (ninilchik.quanstro.net [66.92.161.167]) by wintermute.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server (Backup MX)) with ESMTP id B367D73D6D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by quanstro.net (Postfix, from userid 210) id AFECF3F40B; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:19:14 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: erik quanstrom Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread Library Message-Id: <20020206171914.AFECF3F40B@quanstro.net> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:19:14 -0500 (EST) not to defend nt, but i had no problem calling select() from the wsa library. i did create an include file that mapped the errors from WSAx to Ey and hid all the include nasties (unix is even worse than nt in this case). it looked like: ------ #if defined(NT) #define boolean _fuck_windows_ #include #undef boolean #ifndef EWOULDBLOCK #define EWOULDBLOCK WSAEWOULDBLOCK #define EINPROGRESS WSAEINPROGRESS #define EALREADY WSAEALREADY #define ENOTSOCK WSAENOTSOCK #define EDESTADDRREQ WSAEDESTADDRREQ #define EMSGSIZE WSAEMSGSIZE #define EPROTOTYPE WSAEPROTOTYPE #define ENOPROTOOPT WSAENOPROTOOPT #define EPROTONOSUPPORT WSAEPROTONOSUPPORT #define ESOCKTNOSUPPORT WSAESOCKTNOSUPPORT #define EOPNOTSUPP WSAEOPNOTSUPP #define EPFNOSUPPORT WSAEPFNOSUPPORT #define EAFNOSUPPORT WSAEAFNOSUPPORT #define EADDRINUSE WSAEADDRINUSE #define EADDRNOTAVAIL WSAEADDRNOTAVAIL #define ENETDOWN WSAENETDOWN #define ENETUNREACH WSAENETUNREACH #define ENETRESET WSAENETRESET #define ECONNABORTED WSAECONNABORTED #define ECONNRESET WSAECONNRESET #define ENOBUFS WSAENOBUFS #define EISCONN WSAEISCONN #define ENOTCONN WSAENOTCONN #define ESHUTDOWN WSAESHUTDOWN #define ETOOMANYREFS WSAETOOMANYREFS #define ETIMEDOUT WSAETIMEDOUT #define ECONNREFUSED WSAECONNREFUSED #define ELOOP WSAELOOP #define EHOSTDOWN WSAEHOSTDOWN #define EHOSTUNREACH WSAEHOSTUNREACH #define EPROCLIM WSAEPROCLIM #define EUSERS WSAEUSERS #define EDQUOT WSAEDQUOT #define ESTALE WSAESTALE #define EREMOTE WSAEREMOTE #endif #else #include #include #include #include #include #endif ---------- Russ Cox wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, you can't implement threadkill > completely on NT since I don't see how to send an interrupt to > another process. I'm pretty sure you can't. The best you can do is send it a message to _persuade_ it to pack it in. My theory is that the program loader, oops kernel, forcibly kills processes by ripping them out of memory and throwing away their kernel resources. The whole model is totally and utterly flawed. I guess you could have a thread manager thread that receives a threadkill messages and kills 'em. Such revolting hacks are often the only way to do it. Try writing rsh [remote shell] on NT. You can't select [WaitForMultipleObjects or whatever it's called] on sockets ... It's doable, but revolting. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 04:09:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 04:09:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2840 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 04:09:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2836 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 04:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 04:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C5CE199BC; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:09:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wintermute.cse.psu.edu (unknown [130.203.23.5]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DCD9E19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (orthanc.ab.ca [216.123.203.186]) by wintermute.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server (Backup MX)) with ESMTP id 633A073D40 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from orthanc.ab.ca (localhost.orthanc.ab.ca [127.0.0.1]) by orthanc.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g16H1Sx69237 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:01:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lyndon@orthanc.ab.ca) Message-Id: <200202061701.g16H1Sx69237@orthanc.ab.ca> From: Lyndon Nerenberg Organization: The Frobozz Magic Homing Pigeon Company To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] upas/fs -f/imap & Courier - SOLVED In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 15:11:47 GMT." <20020206151147.01cc6ec9.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: mh-e 5.0.92; MH 6.8.4; Emacs 21.1 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:01:28 -0700 272c272 < if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP4")==0) --- > if(!isokay(s) || strstr(s, "IMAP")==0) This test (in either form) is just plain wrong and should be removed. There is no requirement for the string IMAP to appear anywhere in the greeting: greeting ::= "*" SPACE (resp_cond_auth / resp_cond_bye) CRLF resp_cond_auth ::= ("OK" / "PREAUTH") SPACE resp_text ;; Authentication condition resp_cond_bye ::= "BYE" SPACE resp_text resp_text ::= ["[" resp_text_code "]" SPACE] (text_mime2 / text) ;; text SHOULD NOT begin with "[" or "=" --lyndon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 05:07:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 05:07:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3089 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 05:07:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3085 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 05:07:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 05:07:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A3BA5199E8; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:07:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id BD64A199BE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:06:31 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020206200631.BD64A199BE@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] SiS 900 ethernet driver Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:06:58 -0700 hi, a preliminary SiS 900 ethernet card driver (kernel only) is located at: http://www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/sis900/ there are several problems with it: - the SiS motherboard we have here is revision 630S (which is apparently a rare one, judging from the BSD driver for the card).. the MAC address is stored on the CMOS, but on other revisions it's on the EEPROM. the freebsd code for reading the eeprom is included and modified so that it's presumably correct for plan9, but it's untested - the driver is written from scratch, except for the EEPROM and CMOS code and some status registers which are taken from 'if_sis*' in the freebsd distribution.. - (just discovered) it will not handle well packets of size larger than 1512 +16 + 4.. i'm trying to find any hidden registers that will indicate this if you have the hardware, please give it a try :) if something doesn't work you know who to blame... andrey From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 05:21:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 05:21:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3156 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 05:21:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3152 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 05:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 05:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1A1FA19A58; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:21:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wintermute.cse.psu.edu (unknown [130.203.16.5]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5F82D19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by wintermute.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server (Backup MX)) with ESMTP id 6B07273CA0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (boris.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.21]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09030 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:15:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:85uZBcrXJHFqfKyajPxOfe4PPz/l5okM@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boris.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03744 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:15:20 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202062015.VAA03744@boris.cd.chalmers.se> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:49:39 +0100." <3C601B33.DB8558E6@strakt.com> From: Laura Creighton Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:15:18 +0100 One reason that some people do not sit down and make their code simpler is because nobody has ever told them to do that before. At any rate, when I insist on it, I keep getting told that I am the first person who has. The ones with bad attitudes are helped when they notice that other people are also simplifying. I think that a lot of people are taught that 'Only the stupid people in class ever have to write an answer over again. Smart people get it perfectly correct the first time.' So they are badly offended when you tell them to do it over again, because they think that you are telling them that they are stupid fools. (I have heard a variation from students which goes 'if I had wanted to revise things, I would have become an Humanities major'.) I also think that polite people learn to not mention that _other people_ have poorly written code, until they cannot notice that _they_ have written poor code. We had student interns here last summer. Very early on, the first week, I held a code review of some code I had written in one hell of a hurry. And it was many, many hours before they felt that it was in some way, _permitted_ for them to point out flaws in my code. Finally they got the idea. And really liked savaging their elders for carelessness, and ugliness, and complexity, and all sorts of good stuff. But first they had to know that we really wanted to hear this. Before that it was disrespectful. Laura Creighton From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 05:22:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 05:22:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3163 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 05:22:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3159 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 05:22:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 05:22:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A056719A17; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:22:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D46B719A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (boris.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.21]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09140; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:16:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:GRpaYRyjPQJTo2yooPcxYF4tGKYzDl8o@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boris.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03767; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:16:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202062016.VAA03767@boris.cd.chalmers.se> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: lac@cd.chalmers.se Subject: Re: [9fans] SiS 900 ethernet driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:06:58 MST." <20020206200631.BD64A199BE@mail.cse.psu.edu> From: Laura Creighton Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:16:51 +0100 how do you like things at lanl? I must go home now, but wanted to say hi. Laura From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 05:49:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 05:49:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3269 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 05:49:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3265 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 05:49:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 05:49:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C4DBA19A5A; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:49:23 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0F0DE19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.0.63]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:48:42 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020207094917.0098a0b0@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] code complexity In-Reply-To: <3C6109BC.8F7D964B@strakt.com> References: <16689.1012955390@apnic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Feb 2002 20:48:42.0600 (UTC) FILETIME=[A99CFE80:01C1AF4F] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:49:17 +1300 >With a DLL all share its data; you do not get a copy. I didn't think this had been true since the days of 16 bit Windows? >However, they are both evil. > I'm afraid I've been turned to the dark side here. I've found them very useful to add functionality to applications written by others - particularly MS Excel, where I've written DLL add-ins to do various things such as NZ bond pricing & pulling in data from ISAM files. There may be other & better ways of doing this kind of thing, but I don't know what they are. I believe the Oberon system has some way of adding functionality at run time. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 06:24:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 06:24:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3395 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 06:24:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3391 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 06:24:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 06:24:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8710C19A57; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:24:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5375619999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:23:35 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] SiS 900 ethernet driver From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-oxqqgwlwwtmppudpyzayayohie" Message-Id: <20020206212335.5375619999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:24:01 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-oxqqgwlwwtmppudpyzayayohie Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit it is the best place in the world to work -- very smart people, lots of hardware and no deadlines... but since i'm not an american citizen and have no masters or anything beyond bachelor's degree, i don't think they'll offer me a longer stay than my contract's 6 months... :) that means i'll still like you to teach me... --upas-oxqqgwlwwtmppudpyzayayohie Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from acl.lanl.gov ([128.165.147.1]) by acl.lanl.gov; Wed Feb 6 13:23:07 MST 2002 Received: (qmail 1175252 invoked by uid 18927); 6 Feb 2002 13:23:07 -0700 Delivered-To: andrey@acl.lanl.gov Received: (qmail 1168817 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2002 13:22:10 -0700 Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (128.165.5.47) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 6 Feb 2002 13:22:10 -0700 Received: from mailproxy1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g16KMAA26544; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:22:10 -0700 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mailproxy1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g16KM2206984; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:22:03 -0700 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A056719A17; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:22:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from haddock.cd.chalmers.se (haddock.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D46B719A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (boris.cd.chalmers.se [129.16.79.21]) by haddock.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3+Sun/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09140; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:16:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from boris.cd.chalmers.se (IDENT:GRpaYRyjPQJTo2yooPcxYF4tGKYzDl8o@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boris.cd.chalmers.se (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03767; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:16:54 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202062016.VAA03767@boris.cd.chalmers.se> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: lac@cd.chalmers.se Subject: Re: [9fans] SiS 900 ethernet driver In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 13:06:58 MST." <20020206200631.BD64A199BE@mail.cse.psu.edu> From: Laura Creighton Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:16:51 +0100 how do you like things at lanl? I must go home now, but wanted to say hi. Laura --upas-oxqqgwlwwtmppudpyzayayohie-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 06:27:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 06:27:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3421 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 06:27:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3417 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 06:27:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 06:27:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4B68519A02; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:27:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EA0AA199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:26:49 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] SiS 900 ethernet driver From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020206212649.EA0AA199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:27:17 -0700 oops, private mail.. sorry.. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 16:50:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 16:50:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13540 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 16:50:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13534 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 16:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 16:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8C39D19A26; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:50:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2DCE319999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 02:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk ([194.222.126.246] helo=localhost.localdomain) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 16YjEH-0000Ij-0W for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:44:26 +0000 Received: from whitecrow (IDENT:steve@whitecrow [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29702 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 6 Feb 2002 23:04:59 GMT Message-Id: <200202062304.XAA29702@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XP (was: code complexity) In-Reply-To: Message from Laura Creighton of "Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:15:18 +0100." <200202062015.VAA03744@boris.cd.chalmers.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Kilbane Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:04:59 +0000 Laura wrote: > And it was many, many hours before > they felt that it was in some way, _permitted_ for them to point out > flaws in my code. Finally they got the idea. And really liked > savaging their elders for carelessness, and ugliness, and complexity, > and all sorts of good stuff. But first they had to know that we > really wanted to hear this. I get this problem in prose reviews too. I try to counter it by explaining to people that I want to hear both what's good and what's bad: the former, so that I can choose to do it again, and the latter so that I can choose to avoid it. But in both cases, it needs to be constructively critical - *why* is it good/bad? Another tack, which depends on your environment, is to point out that it's much better for a colleague to point out you've done something stupid than a (soon-to-be-ex-) customer. steve From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:01:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:01:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15473 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:01:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15469 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E6624199BE; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:01:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 760831999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16YlKY-0002Dl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:59:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Salomon Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <20020114170852.EF99C19A17@mail.cse.psu.edu>, Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:55:41 GMT Sascha Silbe wrote in message news:... > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:30:20 GMT, Russ Cox wrote: > > > You should be able to boot your install floppy (the > > same one you used to do the install, not a fresh one) > The one I used to install refused to boot at all after the installation > (sorry, forgot to write down the error message, so I cannot give details). > > > Once you get booted from a boot floppy, you could try > Seems like I have to start from scratch again. OK. > > > disk/format -b /386/pbslba /dev/sdC0/9fat > I'll try that. > Thanks! > > CU/Lnx Sascha I have a very similar problem on my pc (trying to boot plan 9 from grub). I have evaded the problem thus far by using the win98 boot method, but I'd _really_ like to get grub to boot plan 9 directly. This is to a large extent a grub problem - but - without using the plan9 boot method (which wipes out the installed bootloader), the 9load , plan9.ini &ct. files are not on the 9fat partition at all! I tried to use grub to _find_ my 9load on the windoze partition but all i get is a "Inconsistent filesystem" error message from grub. Has anyone managed to get plan 9 booted from grub? Thanks, Joel Salomon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:04:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:04:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15495 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:04:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15491 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:04:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:04:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 00D5619A63; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:04:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 739CF19A0C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16YlKY-0002Dr-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:59:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Salomon Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <004c01c19c51$44a48040$17ba09ca@rosh> Subject: Re: [9fans] Installation help hdd/partition Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:55:55 GMT rosh spark@yahoo.com (Roshan James) wrote in message news:<004c01c19c51$44a48040$17ba09ca@rosh>... > .... > ------------ > All that is gold does not glitter, > Not all those who wander are lost; > The old that is strong does not wither, > Deep roots are not reached by the frost. > From the ashes a fire shall be woken, > A light from the shadow shall spring; > Renewed shall be a blade that was broken, > The crownless again shall be king. > (Gandalf,The Fellowship of the Ring) > Actually the poem was translated by Bilbo Baggins from the original (Elvish?) ;-) -joel From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:04:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:04:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15502 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:04:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15498 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:04:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:04:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5A98F199B3; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:04:14 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7FE5619A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16YlKZ-0002Dx-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 09:59:03 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C61DB56.5BF1FFD7@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <57a36cb4b8ed79cd07504cd0d12d144b@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C6129B5.E0FBCEFA@strakt.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:56:07 GMT Boyd Roberts wrote: > rob pike wrote: > > Platitudes are fine in their place ... I was just trying to raise the level of awareness about the meta-issue: any in-band value that might have a valid normal meaning should not be usurped for any special purpose. This is not just about one font package, but applies to a large number of legacy interfaces. With hindsight gained from experience, we should strive not to do this in new designs. Then the future will be somewhat more pleasant. > I think the pjw solution is actually quite elegant. It addresses one issue, namely missing code points, but not the other, namely genuine 0-width characters (which for some strange reason all look alike). From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:34:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:34:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15793 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:34:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15789 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:34:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:34:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 22B6B19A29; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:34:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5AFFC19A29 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g17AVJpZ009650 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:31:19 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6257F9.3F81B39@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] OT pair programming References: <20020206001339.2FBC619981@mail.cse.psu.edu> <20020206004716.72977f74.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:33:29 +0100 One place where pair programming does work is in the case of pilot + WSO/RIO in the F-4, F-14, F-15E [strike] and AH-64. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:36:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:36:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15821 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:36:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15817 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:36:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:36:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C9209199B7; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:36:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A2000199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g17AXFpZ009665 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:33:15 +0100 Message-ID: <3C62586D.D4F2EF84@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread Library References: <20020206171914.AFECF3F40B@quanstro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:35:25 +0100 erik quanstrom wrote: > > not to defend nt, but i had no problem calling select() from > the wsa library. But the point is that you are only dealing with sockets. Try it on stdin ... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 19:44:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 19:44:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15912 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 19:44:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15908 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 19:44:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 19:44:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 40FFA1999B; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:44:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7B13199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 05:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g17Af3pZ009711 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:41:03 +0100 Message-ID: <3C625A42.C43C2B8A@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour References: <57a36cb4b8ed79cd07504cd0d12d144b@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C6129B5.E0FBCEFA@strakt.com> <3C61DB56.5BF1FFD7@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:43:14 +0100 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > I was just trying to raise the level of awareness about the > meta-issue: ... I know. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 22:46:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 22:46:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17567 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 22:46:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17563 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 22:46:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 22:46:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B4CAB199D5; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:46:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 772721999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:45:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Thread Library MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:45:42 -0500 > But the point is that you are only dealing with sockets. > > Try it on stdin ... Not to defend NT, but you can use WaitForMultipleObjects and hand it both the input console handle and a socket. You can also hand it semaphores, processes (wait until they die), threads. In general I find this much more useful than Unix's select. At least in NT everything is a handle. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 22:51:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 22:51:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17607 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17603 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 688F5199E8; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:51:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 80A1B1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:50:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34f222b8d50840ab53cdcbae5d4ebd0f@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:50:55 -0500 You can't finish the install without getting 9load and plan9.ini on your 9fat partition. Grub should keep its grubby hands off the 9fat partition anyway. Make sure you've done the pbslba command I suggested above, and then just tell grub to chainboot the partition. It might work. If it doesn't work, give up and use LILO, which is known to work. In general, grub seems to need to know too much about what it's booting. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 23:31:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 23:31:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18004 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 23:31:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18000 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 23:31:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 23:31:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E06F319A0C; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:31:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EF4731998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:30:56 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ulnuslgveobgriiwzzddowwbdt" Message-Id: <20020207143056.EF4731998C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:30:52 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ulnuslgveobgriiwzzddowwbdt Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's more FreeBSD's booteasy will also boot Plan 9. What is it that grub is unifying? --upas-ulnuslgveobgriiwzzddowwbdt Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Thu Feb 7 13:47:29 GMT 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D7F51199BE; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:51:05 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 80A1B1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:50:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34f222b8d50840ab53cdcbae5d4ebd0f@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 08:50:55 -0500 You can't finish the install without getting 9load and plan9.ini on your 9fat partition. Grub should keep its grubby hands off the 9fat partition anyway. Make sure you've done the pbslba command I suggested above, and then just tell grub to chainboot the partition. It might work. If it doesn't work, give up and use LILO, which is known to work. In general, grub seems to need to know too much about what it's booting. Russ --upas-ulnuslgveobgriiwzzddowwbdt-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 7 23:55:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 7 23:55:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18199 invoked by uid 1020); 7 Feb 2002 23:55:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18195 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 23:55:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 23:55:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 486E5199BC; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:55:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from marvin.nildram.co.uk (marvin.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.71]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7DB8019A59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 09:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26987 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 14:52:44 -0000 Received: from hamnavoe.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO hamnavoe) (213.208.117.150) by marvin.nildram.co.uk with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 14:52:44 -0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation From: Richard Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020207145403.7DB8019A59@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 14:52:44 0000 > Has anyone managed to get plan 9 booted from grub? Yes, I use grub to boot Plan 9 and Linux on a thinkpad. The first sector of the 9fat partition contains /386/pbslba; the 9fat fs contains 9load, plan9.ini and 9pcdisk.gz, and /boot/grub/menu.lst (in the Linux partition) contains this entry: title = brazil root = (hd0,5) chainloader = +1 -- Richard From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 02:32:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 02:32:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19213 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 02:32:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19209 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 02:32:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 02:32:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A50D519A0D; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:32:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 85CCB199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:31:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6e77ef70b4d996e13a5223e1d8ac0d15@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:31:25 -0500 > What is it that grub is unifying? Pain. More pain in one place. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 03:15:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 03:15:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19459 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 03:15:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19455 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 03:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 03:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D688D19A3F; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:15:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28497199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Ysgg-0006Yl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:50:22 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. Subject: [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:49:39 GMT Hi, http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/ gives some documents from Volume 2 but not "The -mpm Macro Package" B. W. Kernighan and C. J. Van Wyk. Describes the -mpm macros, a version of -ms that does automatic page balancing. that is listed in http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/v2contents.html. I've found very little mention of -mpm apart from this page although it is acknowledged in K&P's TPOP. Having failed to find a contact for those 10thEdMan pages I thought I'd ask here if there's any chance someone could make it available. There's a bunch of people on the GNU groff list that are interested in the page balancing aspects. Thanks, Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 05:57:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 05:57:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20420 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 05:57:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20416 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 05:57:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 05:57:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8BE001999B; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:57:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pali.cps.cmich.edu (pali.cps.cmich.edu [141.209.131.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 20A13199BC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 15:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ishwar@localhost) by pali.cps.cmich.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g17L52603379 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:05:03 -0500 From: Ish Rattan To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [9fans] cpu/auth server.. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:05:02 -0500 (EST) Dual Pentium III/750 Mhz pc, Intel Etherexpress NIC and S3-chip based video card. It is a stand alone cpu/auth server. It was booting from hard disk and functioning correctly. After a power outage, it won't boot from hard disk, so, I tried to boot using a bootfloppy with correct entry for bootdisk and file info bootfile=sdC0!9fat!9pccpud bootdisk=local!#S/sdC0/fs debug=1 *nomp=1 ... in plan9.ini, boots ok and works. If I comment out the nomp line, the machine boots but end displays the message shown below and does not start rio. .. ip/ipconfig: binding device: file does not exist ndb/dns: can't read my ip address rc: null list in concatenation .. % Any pointers? -ishwar From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 06:08:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 06:08:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20460 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 06:08:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20456 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 06:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 06:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 082F219A26; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:08:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5B1D5199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:07:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7ba3ac0881c061111866153b687636c4@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: dmr@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 16:07:17 -0500 Wait until Rob gets back. The macros seem to exist on one of the Unix machines. I'll ask Brian about the memo. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 09:14:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 09:14:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21585 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 09:14:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21581 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 09:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 09:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9B789199B7; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:14:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8B25F19A55 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:13:19 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-bewpldmgmwvuotbgvutkgiqehx" Message-Id: <20020208001319.8B25F19A55@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:14:12 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-bewpldmgmwvuotbgvutkgiqehx Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there's a paper in a back issue of (USENIX) Computing Systems that describes the design and construction of the pm postprocessor and how the troff -mpm directives work with it. it was included with Plan 9 Second Edition. it's a C++ program, which might be one reason it wasn't included in Third Edition. (Second Edition included a version of cfront sufficient to compile it.) --upas-bewpldmgmwvuotbgvutkgiqehx Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu> Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk id 1013107883:20:25632:52; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:51:23 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2115672; 7 Feb 2002 18:51 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D688D19A3F; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:15:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28497199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 13:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Ysgg-0006Yl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:50:22 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. Subject: [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:49:39 GMT Hi, http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/ gives some documents from Volume 2 but not "The -mpm Macro Package" B. W. Kernighan and C. J. Van Wyk. Describes the -mpm macros, a version of -ms that does automatic page balancing. that is listed in http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/v2contents.html. I've found very little mention of -mpm apart from this page although it is acknowledged in K&P's TPOP. Having failed to find a contact for those 10thEdMan pages I thought I'd ask here if there's any chance someone could make it available. There's a bunch of people on the GNU groff list that are interested in the page balancing aspects. Thanks, Ralph. --upas-bewpldmgmwvuotbgvutkgiqehx-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 09:23:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 09:23:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21720 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 09:23:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21716 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 09:23:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 09:23:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 900A61998C; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:23:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 32F7A19A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 19:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1245743 invoked from network); 7 Feb 2002 17:19:51 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 17:19:51 -0700 Received: (qmail 23721 invoked by uid 3499); 7 Feb 2002 17:19:51 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Feb 2002 17:19:51 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [9fans] how small can you get Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:19:51 -0700 (MST) just wondering, what's the smallest plan9 kernel seen to date. No graphics, just an enet device and an IDE and no network. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 10:07:35 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 10:07:35 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22361 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 10:07:35 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22357 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 10:07:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 10:07:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A701C1999B; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:07:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 361C419A26 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:06:36 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020208010636.361C419A26@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:06:27 +0900 >the other, namely genuine 0-width characters By the way, what is 0-width charcters? Is that some kind of control code like ^c? Kenji From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 10:49:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 10:49:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23007 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 10:49:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23003 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 10:49:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 10:49:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CC88419A17; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:49:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E8A9919A58 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <97472ed312d33afdc19adc450f5e64d5@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:48:18 -0500 I just built a stripped down pc kernel -- IDE, CGA, no ether, no network, and got about 361kb. g% size 9tiny 247634t + 78200d + 35628b = 361462 9tiny g% ls -l 9tiny --rwxrwxr-x M 173507 rsc sys 447113 Feb 7 20:42 9tiny g% It's hard to include ethernet but not IP, as you requested, because there are a few ether routines that depend on functions in the IP code. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 10:54:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 10:54:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23136 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 10:54:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23130 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 10:54:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 10:54:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9C9A519A27; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:54:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from galapagos.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EA92E19A0C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17130 invoked by uid 991); 8 Feb 2002 01:52:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20020208015207.17128.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get In-Reply-To: Message from "Russ Cox" of "Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:48:18 EST." <97472ed312d33afdc19adc450f5e64d5@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: Scott Schwartz Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:52:07 -0500 | I just built a stripped down pc kernel -- | IDE, CGA, no ether, no network, and got | about 361kb. I'm surprised it is that big. Back in the days of 4.2BSD, normal kernels were smaller than that. But maybe the vax had better code density than x86. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 11:55:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 11:55:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24237 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 11:55:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24233 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 11:55:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 11:55:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7CF11199E8; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:55:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id BF13119A2C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5db494ec1c50fed106319e1df84858e1@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:53:52 -0500 On Thu Feb 7 19:23:15 EST 2002, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote: > just wondering, what's the smallest plan9 kernel seen to date. > > No graphics, just an enet device and an IDE and no network. > > ron You don't specify when or for which architecture. This is the oldest x86 kernel I could find in a public place: o% size /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/386/9safari 162289t + 132096d + 227168b = 521553 /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/386/9safari o% and here are the other kernels from that time: o% size /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/*/9 125738t + 53604d + 210996b = 390338 /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/68020/9 266448t + 44456d + 516736b = 827640 /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/mips/9 197000t + 45600d + 34536b = 277136 /n/bootesdump/1991/1102/sparc/9 o% On Thu Feb 7 20:54:13 EST 2002, schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu wrote: > | I just built a stripped down pc kernel -- > | IDE, CGA, no ether, no network, and got > | about 361kb. > > I'm surprised it is that big. Back in the days of 4.2BSD, normal > kernels were smaller than that. But maybe the vax had better code > density than x86. I don't have easy access to a 4.2BSD kernel, so this will have to do: o% pwd /rls/unix/4.3bsd/GENERIC o% ls -l vmunix --rwxr-xr-x M 49476 0 10 407552 Jun 6 1986 vmunix o% xd -s -4d vmunix|sed 2q 0000000 0000000264 0000279844 0000080872 0000100324 0000010 0000025716 2147488504 0000000000 0000000000 o% hoc 279844+80872+100324 461040 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 13:27:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 13:27:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25960 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 13:27:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25956 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 13:27:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 13:27:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 806E6199E8; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:27:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C561619A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 7 Feb 2002 23:26:24 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020208042624.C561619A04@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] libgraphics Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 21:26:58 -0700 has anyone written anything using libgraphics? especially anything visually appealing? the search i did in /sys/src/cmd/ found nothing... andrey From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 14:01:42 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 14:01:42 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26527 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 14:01:42 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26523 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 14:01:42 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 14:01:42 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B9B5D19A62; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:01:34 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E5CFD199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:00:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] libgraphics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:00:23 -0500 i'm probably just out of it. remind me what libgraphics is? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 14:26:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 14:26:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26917 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 14:26:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26913 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 14:26:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 14:26:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ABFD119A17; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:26:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B961F199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA27203 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:25:13 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get Message-ID: <20020208072512.S10869@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <5db494ec1c50fed106319e1df84858e1@plan9.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <5db494ec1c50fed106319e1df84858e1@plan9.bell-labs.com>; from jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:53:52PM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:25:12 +0200 On Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:53:52PM -0500, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > On Thu Feb 7 20:54:13 EST 2002, schwartz@bio.cse.psu.edu wrote: > > | I just built a stripped down pc kernel -- > > | IDE, CGA, no ether, no network, and got > > | about 361kb. > > > > I'm surprised it is that big. Back in the days of 4.2BSD, normal > > kernels were smaller than that. But maybe the vax had better code > > density than x86. > > I don't have easy access to a 4.2BSD kernel, so this will have to do: > > o% pwd > /rls/unix/4.3bsd/GENERIC > o% ls -l vmunix > --rwxr-xr-x M 49476 0 10 407552 Jun 6 1986 vmunix > o% xd -s -4d vmunix|sed 2q > 0000000 0000000264 0000279844 0000080872 0000100324 > 0000010 0000025716 2147488504 0000000000 0000000000 > o% hoc > 279844+80872+100324 > 461040 Off the top of my head, the 68000 kernel for the AT&T Unix PC that I am most familiar with was just >150K. With loadable device drivers, admittedly. I could get more details tonight. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 15:14:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 15:14:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27682 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 15:14:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27678 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 15:14:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 15:14:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EC30E19A56; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:14:17 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 1563E19A58 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 01:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Fri Feb 8 01:11:37 EST 2002 Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com ([207.214.222.121]) by plan9; Fri Feb 8 01:11:35 EST 2002 Message-ID: <3C63B2AE.50705@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: rob pike User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. References: <20020208001319.8B25F19A55@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 06:12:46 -0500 all correct. i didn't want to include a program that couldn't be compiled and the cfront is so old that no one cares. forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > there's a paper in a back issue of (USENIX) Computing Systems > that describes the design and construction of the pm postprocessor > and how the troff -mpm directives work with it. > it was included with Plan 9 Second Edition. it's a C++ program, > which might be one reason it wasn't included in Third Edition. > (Second Edition included a version of cfront sufficient to compile it.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: > > [9fans] OT: Paper on -mpm from 10th Edition. > Date: > > Thu, 7 Feb 2002 17:49:39 GMT > To: > > 9fans@cse.psu.edu > > > Hi, > > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/ gives some documents from Volume > 2 but not > > "The -mpm Macro Package" B. W. Kernighan and C. J. Van Wyk. > Describes the -mpm macros, a version of -ms that does automatic > page balancing. > > that is listed in > http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/10thEdMan/v2contents.html. > > I've found very little mention of -mpm apart from this page although it > is acknowledged in K&P's TPOP. Having failed to find a contact for > those 10thEdMan pages I thought I'd ask here if there's any chance > someone could make it available. There's a bunch of people on the GNU > groff list that are interested in the page balancing aspects. > > Thanks, > > > Ralph. > From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 19:06:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 19:06:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32267 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 19:06:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32263 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 19:06:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 19:06:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6CAAC19A29; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:06:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D3CC019A58 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Z7o5-0002WZ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C633BB7.FCE3053B@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20020208010636.361C419A26@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Font behaviour Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:58:20 GMT okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote: > By the way, what is 0-width charcters? > Is that some kind of control code like ^c? Not necessarily, although that could be a useful font. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 19:06:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 19:06:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32274 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 19:06:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32270 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 19:06:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 19:06:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2E04519A58; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:06:14 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 34DEB199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Z7o5-0002WT-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: watercloud Message-ID: <35ef49e9.0202062017.62c46af5@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Where can I download the LXR browser for plan 9 now ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:57:57 GMT The URL http://offworld.fac.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/9login seem to be down ! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 19:09:10 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 19:09:10 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32349 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 19:09:10 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32345 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 19:09:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 19:09:09 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E27A219A5F; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:09:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9165519A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 05:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g18A5kpZ020328 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:05:46 +0100 Message-ID: <3C63A38D.FD457CC7@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:08:13 +0100 Ronald G Minnich wrote: > just wondering, what's the smallest plan9 kernel seen to date. With R2 I had a 1.44Mb floppy that would boot to 8 1/2 with ftpfs and telnet. No compression. It was impressive. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 21:19:01 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 21:19:01 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1141 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 21:19:00 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1137 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 21:19:00 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 21:19:00 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2333919A73; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:18:49 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C5C7F199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16Z9l7-00071H-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:04:05 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. References: <35ef49e9.0202062017.62c46af5@posting.google.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Where can I download the LXR browser for plan 9 now ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:03:51 GMT Hi watercloud, > The URL http://offworld.fac.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/9login seem to be down > ! And has been for some months. I mailed stevemw@mindspring.com last month who suggested mailing mcweigel+@cs.cmu.edu which I did but received no reply. If it's use of HTTP authentication as an indication you'd agreed with the licence was OK then it would be nice to have it back. It was a handy thing to have when Plan 9 was nowhere near. Cheers, Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 8 22:52:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 8 22:52:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1914 invoked by uid 1020); 8 Feb 2002 22:52:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1910 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 22:52:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 22:52:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 499BE19A31; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:52:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D58CB19A57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g18DmfpZ022066; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:48:41 +0100 Message-ID: <3C63D7CF.C8DCAE12@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "9fans@cse.psu.edu" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] python Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:51:11 +0100 I took the 9p2000 native port [thanks russ] and turned it into 9p [on a VAIO]: http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/code/plan9/pythonR3.tgz Bugs to me. And yes, I did various preprocessor crimes. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:10:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:10:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2779 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:10:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2775 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:10:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:10:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7BA719A2D; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:10:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 3D92219A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:09:11 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] libgraphics From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020208150911.3D92219A2D@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:09:46 -0700 > i'm probably just out of it. > remind me what libgraphics is? that would be /sys/src/libgeometry.. libgraphics is probably what i wanted it to be :) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:20:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:20:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2839 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:20:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2835 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:20:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:20:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 66D74199E4; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 679BD19A63 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1274915 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0700 Received: (qmail 27335 invoked by uid 3499); 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get In-Reply-To: <97472ed312d33afdc19adc450f5e64d5@plan9.bell-labs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:17:58 -0700 (MST) On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Russ Cox wrote: > I just built a stripped down pc kernel -- > IDE, CGA, no ether, no network, and got ^^^ can we go to full serial console? > about 361kb. what happened after gzip? many thanks. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:22:29 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:22:29 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2857 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:22:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2853 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:22:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:22:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D3B5619A63; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:22:21 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EDF1B19A60 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1280697 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 08:20:48 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 08:20:48 -0700 Received: (qmail 27344 invoked by uid 3499); 8 Feb 2002 08:20:48 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 08:20:48 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get In-Reply-To: <5db494ec1c50fed106319e1df84858e1@plan9.bell-labs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 08:20:48 -0700 (MST) On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > You don't specify when or for which architecture. This is the oldest > x86 kernel I could find in a public place: Sorry, current kernel, i386 target. I should mention the reason: I'm trying to see what I can get into a 256KB or 512KB flash part. It looks like jamming a minimal kernel into flash is not going to work with a 256KB part any more. ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:44:59 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:44:59 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3006 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:44:59 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3002 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:44:58 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:44:58 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2BE6C19A56; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:44:50 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 02A7B19A02 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:42:39 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-vhqflqrwtwvaawxhuwdqajrqdw" Message-Id: <20020208154239.02A7B19A02@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] keyboad maps revisited Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:42:17 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-vhqflqrwtwvaawxhuwdqajrqdw Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I changed the pc kbd.c to allow for keyboard maps (eg. spanish keyboards) in a simple way. IMHO, this is enough to get users happy, yet it does not complicate the kernel with another device. The idea is simple: — the kbtab*[]s are moved to a separate file: kbdus.c kbdsp.c etc. — in the configuration file you specify one of kbdus, kbdsp, ... as an option. — Besides, to aid in the construction of new kbd{us,sp,...}.c files kbd.c is changed to let you know the scancodes that your keys generate (press f1 to get the code for each key you press, press f2 to stop scan code messages) Although this does not permit using the same kernel for different keyboard layouts I think that most of the times that is not a problem. I tested it here and it works nicely. BTW, I only send the kbdus.c map, since the kbdsp.c I used to test this thing does not really match the spanish keyboard (yes, don't ask me why but I use us keyboards despite being in Madrid). I'll make a kbdsp.c in a few days if no one does it before, though. The attached files are: /sys/src/9/pc/kbd.c : now including kbd.h, and playing the f1/f2 dump scancode game. /sys/src/9/pc/kbd.h : new, just w/ declarations for external kbmaps[] /sys/src/9/pc/kbdus.c : tables for the us keyboard (the ones in the distribution, actually) /sys/src/9/pc/pcdisk example of config file using kbdus. hope this helps PS: It would be great if those of us using non-us keyboards could contribute kbd*.c maps so that new Plan 9 users could just borrow our tables. --upas-vhqflqrwtwvaawxhuwdqajrqdw Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=kbd.c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #include "u.h" #include "../port/lib.h" #include "mem.h" #include "dat.h" #include "io.h" #include "fns.h" #include "../port/error.h" #include "kbd.h" enum { Data= 0x60, /* data port */ Status= 0x64, /* status port */ Inready= 0x01, /* input character ready */ Outbusy= 0x02, /* output busy */ Sysflag= 0x04, /* system flag */ Cmddata= 0x08, /* cmd==0, data==1 */ Inhibit= 0x10, /* keyboard/mouse inhibited */ Minready= 0x20, /* mouse character ready */ Rtimeout= 0x40, /* general timeout */ Parity= 0x80, Cmd= 0x64, /* command port (write only) */ }; enum { /* controller command byte */ Cscs1= (1<<6), /* scan code set 1 */ Cauxdis= (1<<5), /* mouse disable */ Ckbddis= (1<<4), /* kbd disable */ Csf= (1<<2), /* system flag */ Cauxint= (1<<1), /* mouse interrupt enable */ Ckbdint= (1<<0), /* kbd interrupt enable */ }; #define Nscan 0x80 static Lock i8042lock; static uchar ccc; static void (*auxputc)(int, int); static int dumpsc; /* * wait for output no longer busy */ static int outready(void) { int tries; for(tries = 0; (inb(Status) & Outbusy); tries++){ if(tries > 500) return -1; delay(2); } return 0; } /* * wait for input */ static int inready(void) { int tries; for(tries = 0; !(inb(Status) & Inready); tries++){ if(tries > 500) return -1; delay(2); } return 0; } /* * ask 8042 to reset the machine */ void i8042reset(void) { ushort *s = KADDR(0x472); int i, x; *s = 0x1234; /* BIOS warm-boot flag */ /* * newer reset the machine command */ outready(); outb(Cmd, 0xFE); outready(); /* * Pulse it by hand (old somewhat reliable) */ x = 0xDF; for(i = 0; i < 5; i++){ x ^= 1; outready(); outb(Cmd, 0xD1); outready(); outb(Data, x); /* toggle reset */ delay(100); } } int i8042auxcmd(int cmd) { unsigned int c; int tries; c = 0; tries = 0; ilock(&i8042lock); do{ if(tries++ > 2) break; if(outready() < 0) break; outb(Cmd, 0xD4); if(outready() < 0) break; outb(Data, cmd); if(outready() < 0) break; if(inready() < 0) break; c = inb(Data); } while(c == 0xFE || c == 0); iunlock(&i8042lock); if(c != 0xFA){ print("i8042: %2.2ux returned to the %2.2ux command\n", c, cmd); return -1; } return 0; } /* * keyboard interrupt */ static void i8042intr(Ureg*, void*) { int s, c, i, sc; static int esc1, esc2; static int alt, caps, ctl, num, shift; static int collecting, nk; static Rune kc[5]; int keyup; /* * get status */ lock(&i8042lock); s = inb(Status); if(!(s&Inready)){ unlock(&i8042lock); return; } /* * get the character */ sc = c = inb(Data); unlock(&i8042lock); /* * if it's the aux port... */ if(s & Minready){ if(auxputc != nil) auxputc(c, shift); return; } /* * e0's is the first of a 2 character sequence */ if(c == 0xe0){ esc1 = 1; return; } else if(c == 0xe1){ esc2 = 2; return; } keyup = c&0x80; c &= 0x7f; if(c > Kbsize){ c |= keyup; if(c != 0xFF) /* these come fairly often: CAPSLOCK U Y */ print("unknown key %ux\n", c); return; } if(dumpsc){ print("kbd scan: 0x%ux\n", sc); } if(esc1){ c = kbtabesc1[c]; esc1 = 0; } else if(esc2){ esc2--; return; } else if(shift) c = kbtabshift[c]; else c = kbtab[c]; if(caps && c<='z' && c>='a') c += 'A' - 'a'; /* * keyup only important for shifts */ if(keyup){ switch(c){ case Latin: alt = 0; break; case Shift: shift = 0; break; case Ctrl: ctl = 0; break; } return; } /* * normal character */ if(!(c & (Spec|KF))){ if (dumpsc) return; if(ctl){ if(alt && c == Del) exit(0); c &= 0x1f; } if(!collecting){ kbdputc(kbdq, c); return; } kc[nk++] = c; c = latin1(kc, nk); if(c < -1) /* need more keystrokes */ return; if(c != -1) /* valid sequence */ kbdputc(kbdq, c); else /* dump characters */ for(i=0; i', '?', Shift, '*', [0x38] Latin, ' ', Ctrl, KF|1, KF|2, KF|3, KF|4, KF|5, [0x40] KF|6, KF|7, KF|8, KF|9, KF|10, Num, Scroll, '7', [0x48] '8', '9', '-', '4', '5', '6', '+', '1', [0x50] '2', '3', '0', '.', No, No, No, KF|11, [0x58] KF|12, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x60] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x68] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x70] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x78] No, Up, No, Up, No, No, No, No, }; Rune kbtabesc1[] = { [0x00] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x08] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x10] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x18] No, No, No, No, '\n', Ctrl, No, No, [0x20] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x28] No, No, Shift, No, No, No, No, No, [0x30] No, No, No, No, No, '/', No, Print, [0x38] Latin, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x40] No, No, No, No, No, No, Break, Home, [0x48] Up, Pgup, No, Left, No, Right, No, End, [0x50] Down, Pgdown, Ins, Del, No, No, No, No, [0x58] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x60] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x68] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x70] No, No, No, No, No, No, No, No, [0x78] No, Up, No, No, No, No, No, No, }; --upas-vhqflqrwtwvaawxhuwdqajrqdw Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=pcdisk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dev root cons arch env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc ssl bridge loopback kprof ether netif ip arp chandial ip ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386 inferno draw screen vga vgax mouse mouse vga sd floppy dma audio dma i82365 cis lpt ns16552 link apm apmjump etherwavelan ethermedium loopbackmedium pcmciamodem misc archmp mp apic cfs.root kfs.root ppp.root ipconfig.root sdata pci sdscsi kbdus vgamach64xx +cur ip il tcp udp rudp ipifc icmp gre ipmux port int cpuserver = 0; boot boot #S/sdC0/ il local --upas-vhqflqrwtwvaawxhuwdqajrqdw-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:50:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:50:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3112 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:50:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3108 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:50:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:50:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 97F4A199BB; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:50:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 042B419991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g18FkspZ022938 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:46:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3C63F386.28FD7A1D@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] keyboad maps revisited References: <20020208154239.02A7B19A02@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 16:49:26 +0100 "Fco.J.Ballesteros" wrote: > Although this does not permit using the same kernel for different keyboard > layouts I think that most of the times that is not a problem. True, but I like the generality of being able to dynamically map. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 00:54:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 00:54:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3142 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 00:54:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3138 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 00:54:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 00:54:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 548A6199B3; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:54:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6D9631998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:53:28 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: boyd@strakt.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] keyboad maps revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020208155328.6D9631998C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:53:11 +0100 : True, but I like the generality of being able to dynamically map. Wouldn't pipefile be enough for those cases? In any case, it's probably a matter of taste... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 01:20:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 01:20:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3268 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 01:20:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3264 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 01:20:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 01:20:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1B4C4199B7; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:20:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 635DA19A3F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:19:28 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020208161928.635DA19A3F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:19:17 -0500 256KB is tight, but i bet it's doable, if your bootloader understands gzip, as 9load does. i just did this: :; size 9tiny 360495t + 153284d + 36356b = 550135 9tiny :; strip < 9tiny > 9teeny :; ls -l 9tiny 9teeny 9teeny.gz --rw-rw-r-- M 4 anothy sys 513811 Feb 8 06:15 9teeny --rwxrwxr-x M 4 anothy sys 683136 Feb 8 06:14 9tiny --rw-rw-r-- M 4 anothy sys 229755 Feb 8 06:15 9teeny.gz i just did the tiny config file in a minute; i bet more could be taken out if some care were applied. i've appended below what i had, for refference. pretty close to what i think you're asking for. ã‚¢ ---/sys/src/cmd/pc/tiny--- dev root cons arch env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc ssl ether netif ip arp chandial ip ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386 inferno sd ns16552 link ether82557 pci ethermedium misc archmp mp apic ipconfig.root sdata pci sdscsi ip tcp udp ipifc icmp port int cpuserver = 0; boot boot #S/sdC0/ local tcp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 01:29:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 01:29:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3321 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 01:29:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3317 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 01:29:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 01:29:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3AA7C19A57; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:29:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nico.bway.net (nico.bway.net [216.220.96.3]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0811919A27 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from bway.net (dsl-64-34-219-173.telocity.com [64.34.219.173]) by nico.bway.net (8.11.4+3.4W/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g18GRxw07070 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:27:59 -0500 Message-ID: <3C63FE28.9C1FF83A@bway.net> From: John Packer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation References: <20020114170852.EF99C19A17@mail.cse.psu.edu>, Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 11:34:48 -0500 It seems to work fine on my machine (that is, not much more painful than any other boot loader). Plan9 is on the first hard drive, second partition. The settings are: rootnoverify (hd0, 1) chainloader --force +1 makeactive boot Joel Salomon wrote: > > > > Has anyone managed to get plan 9 booted from grub? > > Thanks, > Joel Salomon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 01:43:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 01:43:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3388 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3384 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C75AB19A5A; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:43:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E1C4E19A2C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1203337 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 09:42:29 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 09:42:29 -0700 Received: (qmail 27663 invoked by uid 3499); 8 Feb 2002 09:42:28 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 09:42:28 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get In-Reply-To: <20020208161928.635DA19A3F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:42:28 -0700 (MST) That tiny kernel from anothy is pretty encouraging. OK, unless it makes people REALLY unhappy, we're going to look into a way to get plan9 to boot plan9. We're finding that OSes make pretty good bootstraps, since they generally are current on hardware bugs and glitches that bootstrap loaders lag on. Making an OS boot an OS is not that hard anyway. Thanks ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 02:03:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 02:03:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3483 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 02:03:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3479 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 02:03:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 02:03:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 808F719A69; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:03:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6425719A3F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:02:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.46]) by plan9; Fri Feb 8 12:02:35 EST 2002 Message-ID: <3C640534.FF043B6@research.bell-labs.com> From: Sean Quinlan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:04:52 -0500 That is exactly the way we have headed with plan 9 here at the labs. The current internal version of the kernel has this functionality. We are also in the process of redoing the /boot. The idea is to use rc as the boot scripting language. The combination of these two ideas means that 9load can be greatly simplified, and we can have scenarios such as 9load->local kernel -> setup ip; connected to fs; load kernel over 9p -> reboot The local kernel is just a fancy bootloader. The only tricky aspects to getting this to work is resetting the various devices that potentially can be doing DMA during or soon after the reboot. Another issue is the kernel configuration enviroment. email me if you want more details. seanq Ronald G Minnich wrote: > > That tiny kernel from anothy is pretty encouraging. > > OK, unless it makes people REALLY unhappy, we're going to look into a way > to get plan9 to boot plan9. We're finding that OSes make pretty good > bootstraps, since they generally are current on hardware bugs and glitches > that bootstrap loaders lag on. Making an OS boot an OS is not that hard > anyway. > > Thanks > > ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 02:15:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 02:15:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3553 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 02:15:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3549 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 02:15:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 02:15:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 339B619A4A; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:15:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C8EA819A64 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:14:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3cdfe9d48be318e54ba7014f688a0680@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:14:27 -0500 On Fri Feb 8 11:43:15 EST 2002, rminnich@lanl.gov wrote: > That tiny kernel from anothy is pretty encouraging. > > OK, unless it makes people REALLY unhappy, we're going to look into a way > to get plan9 to boot plan9. We're finding that OSes make pretty good > bootstraps, since they generally are current on hardware bugs and glitches > that bootstrap loaders lag on. Making an OS boot an OS is not that hard > anyway. > > Thanks > > ron Also, that's exactly what we did 10 years ago when we used to build hardware. The Hobbit board ROM monitor was just a Plan 9 kernel with a slightly different memory mapping and /boot replaced with interactive code. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 9 02:18:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 9 02:18:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3582 invoked by uid 1020); 9 Feb 2002 02:18:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3578 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 02:18:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 02:18:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7218619A66; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:18:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F058319A7D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1238667 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0700 Received: (qmail 31128 invoked by uid 3499); 8 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get In-Reply-To: <3C640534.FF043B6@research.bell-labs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 10:16:27 -0700 (MST) On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Sean Quinlan wrote: > The current internal version of the kernel has this functionality. good. > We are also in the process of redoing the /boot. The idea is > to use rc as the boot scripting language. The combination of these two > ideas means that 9load can be greatly simplified, and we can have scenarios > such as > 9load->local kernel -> setup ip; connected to fs; load kernel over 9p -> reboot > > The local kernel is just a fancy bootloader. This is pretty much what we've been doing for the last 18 months with Linux. We can boot linux from flash, or etherboot from flash on those 256KB flash cases. The first Linux we boot in turn can boot another linux from wherever linux knows how to read from (disk, network, etc.). So my scenario would be linuxbios->gunzip local kernel from FLASH->setup ip; connected to fs; load kernel over 9p > The only tricky aspects to getting this to work is resetting the various > devices that potentially can be doing DMA during or soon after the reboot. Yup. In Two-Kernel Monte for Linux Erik Hendriks handles this by using loadable modules. Before Monte boots the next Linux it unloads all the modules he loaded, and their unload process pretty much disables each interface. Plan9 doesn't have loadable modules but I assume you've worked out the details of disabling the DMA. Actually for PCI I've always found it safe to just disable DMA in the device command register but Erik is more paranoid than I am (probably justifiable given awful PC hardware). The APIC and SMP add difficulties. Eric Biederman of LinuxNetworx has solved these problems however. You might want to check out his kexec patch unless you've solved this already. But turning off an APIC that was brought alive in uniprocessor mode and having it do the right thing when you get into SMP -- that's turned out to be tough. Add in the usual chipset bugs and ... what a mess. One thing we also do is use the Disk On Chip (where possible) to give us a 7MB / partition on the motherboard. This can be very handy ... you could put plan9.ini in there, for example. Anyway we're interested ... ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 10 05:00:37 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 10 05:00:37 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15995 invoked by uid 1020); 10 Feb 2002 05:00:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15991 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2002 05:00:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 10 Feb 2002 05:00:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3A4DD199ED; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:00:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 40E0919999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1355801 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2002 12:59:36 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 12:59:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 5014 invoked by uid 3499); 9 Feb 2002 12:59:35 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Feb 2002 12:59:35 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:59:35 -0700 (MST) Just wanted to mention some reaction to the "small kernel" posting from this list. This "make the kernel small" silliness is necessary because FLASH parts on motherboards have gotten *smaller*, rather than *larger*, in the last 18 months, and to top it off the vendors aren't even wiring up all 19 address lines to the parts that are there -- just 18. Disk On Chip is increasingly become hard to use due to the move from DIP32 to QFP packaging. So due to packaging and flash size constraints we are looking at 256KB flash for a while. As a result we need itsy kernels. Plan9 so far is the "itsy kernel" winner. Also the "fallback image" Eric mentions is an etherboot bios that runs if things are really broken. ron ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 09 Feb 2002 06:33:09 -0700 From: Eric W. Biederman To: Ronald G Minnich Cc: linuxbios@lanl.gov Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get (fwd) > yes but note this thing includes tcp and ssl for boot. It's pretty > interesting. And it had SMP support compiled in, so there is some hope. In any event. What I would call a real target is to get the bootloader down to 160K (kernel + user space + decompression code). If whatever we use can hit that mark we can have 2 copies of LinuxBIOS in the ROM, one setup as a fallback image. And one setup with as the normal case with a nice bootloader. Eric From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 10 05:53:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 10 05:53:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16430 invoked by uid 1020); 10 Feb 2002 05:53:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16426 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2002 05:53:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 10 Feb 2002 05:53:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5742D19A6B; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:53:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0A67319999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:52:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <85e3d8b346a5382cc4802d736b4cfa8f@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] how small can you get MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:52:34 -0500 If you use the kernel config file below along with bzip2 compression, I think you can fit everything inside 160kb. g% strip < 9tiny | bzip2 -9 | wc -c 136003 g% strip < /sys/src/cmd/bzip2/8.bunzip2lite | wc -c 18928 g% That leaves 5000 bytes to do load-related stuff like jumping to the right address. If you meant 160*1024 bytes, you've got almost 9000 bytes left. That and bunzip2lite can be made smaller yet. It is way too long and ugly to post, but if you're interested mail me. Basically I took the bunzip2 code and replaced a bunch of macros with functions to get the code size down. There's still plenty of room for improvement. Russ dev root cons arch env pipe proc mnt srv dup rtc ether netif sd ns16552 link ether82557 pci misc archmp mp apic sdata pci sdscsi port int cpuserver = 0; boot local From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 02:28:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 02:28:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27262 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 02:28:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27258 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 02:28:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 02:28:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9496319A6A; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:28:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3B8C4199DD for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA06174 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:26:25 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: <20020210192623.A10869@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans mailing list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us Subject: [9fans] Postscript incantation Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:26:23 +0200 What did it take to convert the Volume 1 postscript file from unprintable to printable? I believe Russ "added" the fonts to it, but what commands were issued to do this? ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 02:42:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 02:42:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27361 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 02:42:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27357 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 02:42:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 02:42:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8ED4D19A6C; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:42:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9E67319A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:41:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3f0c386ce1b06f54d29bf93929de06fe@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Postscript incantation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:41:49 -0500 This is the script I typically use: fontify /tmp/a It looks at the postscript headers to figure out which fonts are needed. g% cat /bin/fontify #!/bin/rc echo %!PS-Adobe-2.0 cat $* | aux/download -f -H/sys/lib/postscript/font -mfontmap -r/sys/lib/postscript/font/lw+ g% I think for the Volume 1 conversion I used /sys/doc/cleanps, which does approximately the same thing but for a fixed set of needed fonts. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 02:57:35 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 02:57:35 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27418 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 02:57:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27414 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 02:57:34 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 02:57:34 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0ACA219A7F; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:57:23 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B09011998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA06205 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:56:12 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Postscript incantation Message-ID: <20020210195606.B10869@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <3f0c386ce1b06f54d29bf93929de06fe@plan9.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <3f0c386ce1b06f54d29bf93929de06fe@plan9.bell-labs.com>; from Russ Cox on Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 12:41:49PM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:56:06 +0200 On Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 12:41:49PM -0500, Russ Cox wrote: > > I think for the Volume 1 conversion I used > /sys/doc/cleanps, which does approximately the same thing > but for a fixed set of needed fonts. > Worked a charm (I needed a copy of the Alef paper). Thanks a tonne. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 06:53:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 06:53:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28339 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 06:53:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28335 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 06:53:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 06:53:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E11A4199BF; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:53:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DE7C7199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1088 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2002 21:51:41 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 10 Feb 2002 21:51:41 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <20020210215140.44490a93.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] VoiceNav Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:51:40 +0000 http://www.lucent.com/press/1101/011105.bla.html I love pc voice control and I'm deeply disappointed it's not here yet the GUI gets in the way though it's struck me that the CLI world is much more suited to it than the Wimps plan9's "hybrid" scheme (sorry do we have a better name, I've been told it's neither GUI nor CLI, what's the 'official' name, bitmapped terminal is a bit of a mouthful) strikes me as a good candidate. tried to entice your buddies in the labs to do a plan9 version? oh btw. if Tom Duff still reads the list, Monsters Inc. was brilliant, I made my lad wait through the credits to see if you were there, and bingo I won. Mind you I nearly missed it laughing at the end credit skits! Was/is plan9 used at all for the film, I'd love to be able to drop that into my slashdot posts! M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 19:01:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 19:01:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32475 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32471 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 19:01:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A2FA3199DD; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:01:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 91FDE19991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16aDBC-0001Qr-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:55:22 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Salomon Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Monitor timings - shb, ehb, vrs, etc. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:54:17 GMT I've seen this issue mentioned on the newsgroup archives again & again, but never with a real solution. I'd like to use high resolution (1600x1200) with my monitor, but that res isn't mentioned in vgadb. vgadb(6) lists numbers to implement a resolution: shb, ehb, vrs, etc, then says "The values given for shb, ehb, ht, vrs, vre, vt, hsync, and vsync are beyond the scope of this manual page. See the book by Ferraro for details." :-( My monitor came with a list of resolutions and horizoontal and vertical refesh rates. My question is: how do I get from this table to the list of shb, ehb, vrs, etc. that vgadb wants? If this is non-trivial but there is some one out there who can generate these numbers, my monitor is a Hyundai P910+ with timings as folows: resolution Horiz.(khz) Vertical refresh(Hz) 720x400 31.5 70 640x480 31.5 60 640x480 63.7 120 800x600 53.7 85 1152x864 67.5 75 1024x768 68.7 85 1024x768 81.8 100 1280x1024 79.9 75 1280x1024 91.1 85 1600x1200 93.8 75 1600x1200 106.3 85 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 19:01:27 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 19:01:27 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32484 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32479 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 19:01:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 988B41999B; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:01:13 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5005B19999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16aD9t-0001NQ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:54:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Salomon Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <6e77ef70b4d996e13a5223e1d8ac0d15@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:53:37 GMT First of all, thanks to Russ and Richard. The disk/format command did work except it also wanted a -x or -r 2. I'm now booting with grub's chainloader, and it works. Grub's ability to find a particular linux kernel image is the reason I'm using it, unified pain or no. ;) Apparently, the 9load on the 9fat sub-partition is still not found. I get PBS... Plan 9 from Bell Labs, a _long_ pause, then it finally finds my 9load in /dev/sdC0/dos ( or some similar way of indicating the fat32 partition, I'm conected via a different pc now ). mounting the 9fat partition (on the /n/9fat provided- why isn't it mounted by default like a fat32 partition?) and copying the 9load, plan9.ini and 9pcdisk.gz still won't cause the bot to happen from there. A minor quibble, but still... Thanks again, Joel Salomon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 19:01:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 19:01:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32501 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32497 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 19:01:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 19:01:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C2E22199EE; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:01:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DBD6D19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16aDBC-0001Ql-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:55:22 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Joel Salomon Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Audio - how? plus missing audio(7) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:54:02 GMT I have a Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16 PCI that I thought should work. the command given in the manual bind -a #A /dev gives me a usage:... error message. Can I get this card to work, and how. Secondly, man audio tells me that there should be a page called audio(7), but it's missing. The man pages on the web have this page listed in the index too, but accessing it gets a 404 page not found message. Can anyone explain this? Thanks, Joel Salomon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 11 23:58:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 11 23:58:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2028 invoked by uid 1020); 11 Feb 2002 23:58:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2024 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2002 23:58:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 11 Feb 2002 23:58:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 47851199E3; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:58:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 47CF419995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:57:22 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020211145722.47CF419995@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Re: audio and 9fat Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:57:15 -0500 when doing binds of # devices from the shell, be sure to quote the # to aviod rc interpreting it as a comment. the quotes arn't needed when the shell isn't involved, as is the case for /lib/namespace. the "normal" FAT partitions are mounted, i assume, because they're mostly present in dual-boot setups, where people are likely to have useful information on that, or want to be able to transfer information between the Plan 9 and Win32 worlds (and since Win32 is nearly hopeless for mounting other disk types). the 9fat partition, by contrast, is solely intended for configuration data, and is thus read and written much less often. having it mounted all the time simply introduces another potential for human error. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 00:11:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 00:11:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2159 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 00:11:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2155 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 00:11:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 00:11:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4AEBC199A3; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:11:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 154DA19988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:10:13 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] 9fat From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020211151013.154DA19988@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:07:49 -0500 oh, and, of course, if you want the 9fat partion mounted by default, you can just make the appropriate changes to /rc/bin/[term|cpu]rc. just duplicate the section that mounts the section that tests for /dev/sd*/dos, change dos to 9fat and c: to 9fat:. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 00:15:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 00:15:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2179 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 00:15:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2175 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 00:15:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 00:15:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 113B319A05; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:15:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C3232199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:14:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14aa02a0077094f411c81be5cf1ac928@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Audio - how? plus missing audio(7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:14:39 -0500 I'm not sure that the SB16 PCI is supported. I've only ever used ISA cards. audio(7) is an internal page, and shouldn't be in the index. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 00:21:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 00:21:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2246 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 00:21:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2242 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 00:21:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 00:21:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AD223199D5; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:21:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 10433199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:20:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4027e73e735755ac2e8dfcc603505f29@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Monitor timings - shb, ehb, vrs, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:18:25 -0500 To learn about monitor timings I recommend Eric Raymond's XFree86 Video Timings HOWTO, which can be found at http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ among other places. Another alternative is to find a monitor that is similar and use that entry. The cm751u and cm801u entries look very close to your 1600x1200, 93.8kHz, 75Hz line. On a related note, but one probably not relevant to you, here is a guide to writing vga drivers, which may be of interest to some on this list. Russ The following is a sort of theory of operation for aux/vga and the kernel vga drivers. --- aux/vga and basic kernel drivers Aux/vga consists of a number of modules each of which conforms to an interface called a Ctlr. The Ctlr provides functions snarf, options, init, load, and dump, which are explained in more detail below. Video cards are internally represented as just a collection of Ctlrs. When we want to run one of the functions (snarf, etc.) on the whole card, we run it on each Ctlr piece in turn. In the beginning of aux/vga, it was common for video cards to mix and match different VGA controller chips, RAMDACs, clock generators, and sometimes even hardware cursors. The original use for vgadb was to provide a recipe for how to deal with each card. The ordering in the ctlr sections was followed during initialization, so that if you said ctlr 0xC0076="Tseng Laboratories, Inc. 03/04/94 V8.00N" link=vga clock=ics2494a-324 ctlr=et4000-w32p ramdac=stg1602-135 when aux/vga wanted to run, say, snarf on this card it would call the snarf routines for the vga, ics2494a, et4000, and stg1602 Ctlrs, in that order. The special Ctlrs vga and ibm8514 take care of the generic VGA register set and the extensions to that register set introduced by the IBM 8514 chip. Pretty much all graphics cards these days still use the VGA register set with some extensions. The only exceptions currently in vgadb are the Ticket to Ride IV and the Neomagic (both LCD cards). The S3 line of chips tends to have the IBM 8514 extensions. This "mix and match" diversity has settled down a bit, with one chip now usually handling everything. As a result, vgadb entries have become a bit more formulaic, usually listing only the vga link, a controller, and a hardware cursor. For example: ctlr 0xC0039="CL-GD540" link=vga ctlr=clgd542x hwgc=clgd542xhwgc On to the controller functions themselves. The functions mentioned earlier are supposed to do the following. void snarf(Vga *vga, Ctlr *ctlr) Read the ctlr's registers into memory, storing them either in the vga structure (if there is an appropriate place) or into a privately allocated structure, a pointer to which can be stored in vga->private [sic]. [The use of vga->private rather than ctlr->private betrays the fact that private data has only been added after we got down to having cards with basically a single controller.] void options(Vga *vga, Ctlr *ctlr) This step prepares to edit the in-memory copy of the registers to implement the mode given in vga->mode. It's really the first half of init, and is often empty. Basically, something goes here if you need to influence one of the other init routines and can't depend on being called before it. For example, the virge Ctlr rounds the pixel line width up to a multiple of 16 in its options routine. This is necessary because the vga Ctlr uses the pixel line width. If we set it in virge.init, vga.init would already have used the wrong value. void init(Vga *vga, Ctlr *ctlr) Edit the in-memory copy of the registers to implement the mode given in vga->mode. void load(Vga *vga, Ctlr *ctlr) Write all the ctlr's registers, using the in-memory values. This is the function actually used to switch modes. void dump(Vga *vga, Ctlr *ctlr) Print (to the Biobuf stdout) a description of all the in-memory controller state. This includes the in-memory copy of the registers but often includes other calculated state like the intended clock frequencies, etc. Now we have enough framework to explain what aux/vga does. It's easiest to present it as a commented recipe. 1. We sniff around in the BIOS memory looking for a match to any of the strings given in vgadb. (In the future, we intend also to use the PCI configuration registers to identify cards.) 2. Having identified the card and thus made the list of controller structures, we snarf the registers and, if the -p flag was given, dump them. 3. If the -i or -l flag is given, aux/vga then locates the desired mode in the vgadb and copies it into the vga structure. It then does any automatic frequency calculations if they need doing. (See the discussion of defaultclock in vgadb(6).) For a good introduction to video modes, read Eric Raymond's XFree86 Video Timings HOWTO, which, although marked as obsolete for XFree86, is still a good introduction to what's going on between the video card and the monitor. http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ 4. Having copied the vgadb mode parameters into the vga structure, aux/vga calls the options and then the init routines to twiddle the in-memory registers appropriately. 5. Now we are almost ready to switch video modes. We dump the registers to stdout if we're being verbose. 6. We tell the kernel (via the "type" vga ctl message) what sort of video card to look for. Specifically, the kernel locates the named kernel vga driver and runs its enable function. 7. If we're using a frame buffer in direct-mapped linear mode (see the section below), we express this intent with a "linear" vga ctl message. In response, the kernel calls the vga driver's linear function. This should map the video memory into the kernel's address space. Conventionally, it also creates a named memory segment for use with segattach so that uesr-level programs can get at the video memory. If there is a separate memory-mapped i/o space, it too is mapped and named. These segments are only used for debugging, specifically for debugging the hardware acceleration routines from user space before putting them into the kernel. 8. We tell the kernel the layout of video memory in a "size" ctl message. The arguments are the screen image resolution and the pixel channel format string. 9. Everything is set; we disable the video card, call the loads to actally set the real registers, and reenable the card. At this point there should be a reasonable picture on the screen. It will be of random memory contents and thus could be mostly garbage, but there should be a distinct image on the screen rather than, say, funny changing patterns due to having used an incorrect sync frequency. 10. We write "drawinit" into #v/vgactl, which will initialize the screen and make console output from now on appear on the graphics screen instead of being written to the CGA text video memory (as has been happening). This calls the kernel driver's drawinit function, whose only job is to initialize hardware accelerated fills and scrolls and hardware blanking if desired. 11. We write "hwgc " into #v/vgactl, which calls the enable function on the named kernel hwgc driver. (Plan 9 does not yet support software graphics cursors.) 12. We set the actual screen size with an "actualsize" ctl message. The virtual screen size (which was used in the "size" message in step 8) controls how the video memory is laid out; the actual screen size is how much fits on your monitor at a time. Virtual screen size is sometimes larger than actual screen size, either to implement panning (which is really confusing and not recommended) or to round pixel lines up to some boundary, as is done on the ViRGE and Matrox cards. The only reason the kernel needs to know the actual screen size is to make sure the mouse cursor stays on the actual screen. 13. If we're being verbose, we dump the vga state again. --- hardware acceleration and blanking Hardware drawing acceleration is accomplished by calling the kernel-driver-provided fill and scroll routines rather than doing the memory operations ourselves. For >8-bit pixel depths, hardware acceleration is noticeably needed. For typical Plan 9 applications, accelerating fill and scroll has been fast enough that we haven't worried about doing anything else. The kernel driver's drawinit function should sniff the card and decide whether it can use accelerated fill and scroll functions. If so, it fills in the scr->fill and scr->scroll function pointers with functions that implement the following: int fill(VGAscr *scr, Rectangle r, ulong val); Set every pixel in the given rectangle to val. Val is a bit pattern already formatted for the screen's pixel format (rather than being an RGBA quadruple). Do not return until the operation has completed (meaning video memory has been updated). Usually this means a busy wait looping for a bit in some status register. Although slighty inefficient, the net effect is still much faster than doing the work ourselves. It's a good idea to break out of the busy loop after a large number of iterations, so that if the driver or the card gets confused we don't lock up the system waiting for the bit. Look at any of the accelerated drivers for the conventional method. int scroll(VGAscr *scr, Rectangle r, Rectangle sr); Set the pixels in rectangle r with the pixels in sr. r and sr are allowed to overlap, and the correct thing must be done, just like memmove. Like fill, scroll must not return until the operation has completed. Russ Cox has a user-level scaffold for testing fill and scroll routines before putting them into the kernel. You can mail him for them. Finally, drawinit can set scr->blank to a hardware blanking function. On 8-bit displays we can set the colormap to all black to get a sort of blanking, but for true-color displays we need help from the hardware. int blank(VGAscr *vga, int isblank); If isblank is set, blank the screen. Otherwise, restore it. Implementing this function on CRT-based cards is known to mess up the registers coming out of the blank. We've had better luck with LCD-based cards although still not great luck. But there it is. --- linear mode and soft screens In the bad old days, the entire address space was only 1MB, but video memory (640x480x1) was only 37.5kB, so everything worked out. It got its own 64kB segment and everyone was happy. When screens got deeper and then bigger, the initial solution was to use the 64kB segment as a window onto a particular part of video memory. The offset of the window was controlled by setting a register on the card. This works okay but is a royal pain, especially if you're trying to copy from one area of the screen to another and they don't fit in the same window. When we are forced to cope with cards that require accessing memory through the 64kB window, we allocate our own copy of the screen (a so-called soft screen) in normal RAM, make changes there, and then flush the changed portions of memory to video RAM through the window. To do this, we call the kernel driver-provided page routine: int pageset(VGAscr *scr, int page); Set the base offset of the video window to point page*64kB into video memory. With the advent of 32-bit address spaces, we can map all of video memory and avoid the soft screen. We call this running the card in linear mode, because the whole video memory is mapped linearly into our address space. Aux/vga is in charge of deciding whether to do this. (In turn, aux/vga more or less respects vgadb, which controls it by having or not having "linear=1" in the controller entry.) If not, aux/vga doesn't do anything special, and we use a soft screen. If so, aux/vga writes "linear" and an address space size into vgactl in step #7 above. In response the kernel calls the kernel driver's linear function, whose job was described in step #7. Most drivers only implement one or the other interface: if you've got linear mode, you might as well use it and ignore the paging capabilties of the card. Paging is typically implemented only when necessary. --- from here If you want to write a VGA driver, it's fairly essential that you get documentation for the video chipset. In a pinch, you might be able to get by with the XFree86 driver for the chipset instead. (The NVidia driver was written this way.) Another alternative is to use documentation for a similar but earlier chipset and then tweak registers until you figure out what is different. (The SuperSavage parts of the virge driver got written this way, starting with the Savage4 parts, which in turn were written by referring to the Savage4 documentation and the Virge parts.) Even if you do get documentation, the XFree86 driver is good to have to double check. Sometimes the documentation is incomplete, misleading, or just plain wrong, whereas the XFree86 drivers, complicated beasts though they are, are known to work most of the time. Another useful method for making sure you understand what is going on is dumping the card's registers under another system like XFree86 or Microsoft Windows. The Plan 9 updates page contains an ANSI/POSIX port of aux/vga that is useful only for dumping registers on various systems. It has been used under Linux, FreeBSD, and Windows 95/98. It's not clear what to do on systems like Windows NT or Windows 2000 that both have reasonable memory protection and are hardware programmer-unfriendly. If you're going to write a driver, it's much easier with a real Plan 9 network or at least with a do-everything cpu/auth/file server terminal, so that you can have an editor and compiler going on a usable machine while you continually frotz and reboot the machine with the newfangled video card. Booting this latter machine from the network rather than its own disk makes life easier for you (you don't have to explicitly copy aux/vga from the compiling machine to the testing machine) and doesn't wreak havoc on the testing machine's local kfs. It's nice sometimes to have a command-line utility to poke at the vga registers you care about. We have one that perhaps we can clean up and make available. Otherwise, it's not hard to roll your own. The first step in writing an aux/vga driver is to write the snarf and dump routines for the controller. Then you can run aux/vga -p and see whether the values you are getting match what you expect from the documentation you have. A good first resolution to try to get working is 640x480x8, as it can use one of the standard clock modes rather than require excessive clock fiddling. /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/template.c is a template for a new vga controller driver. There is no kernel template but any of the current drivers is a decent template. /sys/src/9/pc/vga3dfx.c is the smallest one that supports linear addressing mode. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 13:57:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 13:57:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13751 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 13:57:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13746 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 13:57:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 13:57:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 44C4919999; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:57:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 1AD0819988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:56:19 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020212045619.1AD0819988@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] max width of image, CHUNK limit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:56:21 +0900 We met the maximum value of CHUNK of /sys/src/libdrawloadimage.c for certain image with 32 bit depth. I think this limit comes from current 9p protocol. Does this limit goes larger in the next 9p2000 version? I know we can avoid this limit in our application, however, if that limit goes away, it'll be more beautiful... Kenji From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 15:04:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 15:04:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16858 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 15:04:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16854 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 15:04:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 15:04:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2F73819995; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:04:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DD28019A59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 01:02:33 EST 2002 Message-ID: Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.233.125]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 01:02:32 EST 2002 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max width of image, CHUNK limit From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:02:31 -0500 Yes, in 9P2000 the maximum message size may be as large as the two sides wish to negotiate. We typically run with a 32kb message size for cpu connections, specifically to help /dev/draw. You could lift the current restriction by changing cloadimage and the image compressor to expect rectangles rather than y-coordinate pairs when the image is very wide. Another less involved possibility is to write the image as a sequence of images, one for each medium sized column. With appropriate reworking, the limit should really go away entirely. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 12 15:48:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 12 15:48:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18820 invoked by uid 1020); 12 Feb 2002 15:48:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18815 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 15:48:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 15:48:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 54E2419A59; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:48:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5BBC219A2C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:47:43 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max width of image, CHUNK limit From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-rrsultvjcmkbvuxsyqbqxnjnqw" Message-Id: <20020212064743.5BBC219A2C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:45:43 +0900 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-rrsultvjcmkbvuxsyqbqxnjnqw Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you very much Russ. Now, we are headding your second method. In 9p2000, we may have a more elegant program here. Kenji --upas-rrsultvjcmkbvuxsyqbqxnjnqw Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp ([192.168.1.3]) by diabase; Tue Feb 12 15:01:06 JST 2002 Received: from elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.103.2]) by granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11394; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:03:55 +0900 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-01112614) with ESMTP id PAA09643; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:04:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2F73819995; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:04:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DD28019A59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 01:02:33 EST 2002 Message-ID: Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.233.125]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 01:02:32 EST 2002 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] max width of image, CHUNK limit From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:02:31 -0500 Yes, in 9P2000 the maximum message size may be as large as the two sides wish to negotiate. We typically run with a 32kb message size for cpu connections, specifically to help /dev/draw. You could lift the current restriction by changing cloadimage and the image compressor to expect rectangles rather than y-coordinate pairs when the image is very wide. Another less involved possibility is to write the image as a sequence of images, one for each medium sized column. With appropriate reworking, the limit should really go away entirely. Russ --upas-rrsultvjcmkbvuxsyqbqxnjnqw-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 01:40:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 01:40:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27191 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 01:40:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27187 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 01:40:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 01:40:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B2BB19A08; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:40:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 25B771998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([64.192.227.65]) by cosym.net; Tue Feb 12 11:39:16 EST 2002 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v480) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Michael Baldwin To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0D99FFAE-1FD7-11D6-A93B-0003930EC74A@vitanuova.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.480) Subject: [9fans] correct attribution Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 11:39:16 -0500 actually, bilbo did not translate it. he wrote it. On Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 06:55 , joelcsalomon@excite.com wrote: > rosh spark@yahoo.com (Roshan James) wrote in message > news:<004c01c19c51$44a48040$17ba09ca@rosh>... >> All that is gold does not glitter, >> Not all those who wander are lost; >> The old that is strong does not wither, >> Deep roots are not reached by the frost. >> From the ashes a fire shall be woken, >> A light from the shadow shall spring; >> Renewed shall be a blade that was broken, >> The crownless again shall be king. >> (Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring) >> > Actually the poem was translated by Bilbo Baggins from the original > (Elvish?) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 02:13:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 02:13:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27368 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 02:13:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27364 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 02:13:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 02:13:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7746219A2C; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:13:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 99A12199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1397122 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2002 10:05:33 -0700 Received: from snaresland.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.113) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 10:05:33 -0700 Received: (qmail 28257 invoked by uid 3499); 12 Feb 2002 10:05:33 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Feb 2002 10:05:33 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [9fans] booting plan9 without a standard PC bios Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:05:32 -0700 (MST) OK, as of yesterday we're doing this: - machine boots, starts up linuxbios (i.e. no BIOS there at all) - linuxbios loads etherboot from flash - etherboot loads 9load - 9load boots from sdC0 (contrary to naming, no Linux enters this picture) Next step is to just put 9load into flash. I expect this to Just Work, but we'll see. Congrats to Andrey who dealt with all this fun. Now he is off to Paris to take a break. Why don't I get breaks like that? ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 04:20:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 04:20:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27983 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 04:20:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27979 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 04:20:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 04:20:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C273519A3E; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:22:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AC2BA19A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1CHEGpZ029728 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:14:16 +0100 Message-ID: <3C694E45.7DD11B93@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] booting plan9 without a standard PC bios References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:17:57 +0100 Ronald G Minnich wrote: > Congrats to Andrey who dealt with all this fun. Now he is off to Paris to > take a break. Why don't I get breaks like that? I did: http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/paris/knee/17-4-2000/face.jpg http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/paris/knee/17-4-2000/profil.jpg :( From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 10:11:45 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 10:11:45 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30829 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 10:11:45 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30825 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 10:11:44 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:11:44 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 21A1319A6D; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:30 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C8B4919A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:09:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020213010925.C8B4919A00@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] CGI Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:05:34 +0900 Hello 9fans, Now I am considering about CGI environment of Web server. Let A be a CGI program that is owned by user alice, and assume the program needs to read from file B that must be protected to the accesses from other users. That is, the permission mode is required to be, -r--r----- 16 alice alice .... B Then how can we design Web server on Plan9? In case of UNIX, this problem may be solved using SETUID, or more safely solved using CGI wrapper. Plan9 does not have such an easy way for `none' to become `alice'. Authentication must be required. Public key cryptography may be applied. Let the Web server start with server mode, then httpd can read secret key that is in a file owned by bootes with 400 permission. User alice encrypts her password using public key and puts it somewhere. In executing A, httpd decrypt her key and then become `alice'. I am afraid this scheem gives too much right to httpd. We need only a given CGI can read a given file. Do you have oher solutions? Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 10:12:10 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 10:12:10 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30841 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 10:12:10 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30837 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 10:12:10 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:12:10 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 93F0519A06; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:12:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from gsyc.escet.urjc.es (gsyc064.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.64]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 462E619A6E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from nido.hilbert.space (80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12]) by gsyc.escet.urjc.es (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id CAA15688 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:10:18 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: gsyc.escet.urjc.es: Host 80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12] claimed to be nido.hilbert.space Received: from paurea by nido.hilbert.space with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16anvf-0000kt-00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:09:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15465.48347.699207.285430@nido.hilbert.space> From: paurea@gsyc.escet.urjc.es To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Monitor timings - shb, ehb, vrs, etc. In-Reply-To: <4027e73e735755ac2e8dfcc603505f29@plan9.bell-labs.com>:Russ Cox's message of 10:18:25 Monday,11 February 2002 References: <4027e73e735755ac2e8dfcc603505f29@plan9.bell-labs.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 20.7.2 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 02:09:47 +0100 Russ Cox writes: > From: "Russ Cox" > Subject: Re: [9fans] Monitor timings - shb, ehb, vrs, etc. > Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:18:25 -0500 > > To learn about monitor timings I recommend Eric Raymond's > XFree86 Video Timings HOWTO, which can be found at > http://www.linuxdoc.org/HOWTO/XFree86-Video-Timings-HOWTO/ > among other places. Another alternative is to find a > monitor that is similar and use that entry. The cm751u > and cm801u entries look very close to your > 1600x1200, 93.8kHz, 75Hz line. > > On a related note, but one probably not relevant to you, > here is a guide to writing vga drivers, which may be of > interest to some on this list. > > Russ > > The following is a sort of theory of operation for aux/vga and the > kernel vga drivers. Thanks a lot!!! this makes me very happy!!!. I was doing this guide myself while fighting with my SiS630 driver... This will (hopefully) speed up my programming. -- Saludos, Gorka "Curiosity sKilled the cat" From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 10:18:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 10:18:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30959 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 10:18:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30955 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 10:18:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:18:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 954B6199EC; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:18:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5661A19A7C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:17:10 EST 2002 Message-ID: <806f6b04820b2fb2de63b456669b7966@plan9.bell-labs.com> Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:17:09 EST 2002 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] CGI From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:17:08 -0500 Why not make the relevant bits of the file world readable? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 10:39:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 10:39:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31448 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 10:39:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31442 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 10:39:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:39:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1661E19A26; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:39:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 00E31199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:38:32 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020213013833.00E31199B9@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] CGI Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:34:39 +0900 Hello Russ, Thank you for your quick response. >Why not make the relevant bits of the file >world readable? My explanation was somewhat sketcy. Please change: >and assume the program needs to read from file B to and assume the program needs to write file B and >-r--r----- 16 alice alice .... B to -rw-rw---- 16 alice alice .... B I am interested in reading/updating a file in Web application. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 10:57:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 10:57:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31810 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 10:57:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31805 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 10:57:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 10:57:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 725D4199E8; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:57:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F019219A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:56:44 EST 2002 Message-ID: <0b2d2983d74801054ecef163df5906a7@plan9.bell-labs.com> Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:56:42 EST 2002 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] CGI From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:56:41 -0500 In increasing order of complexity, I see four choices: 1. Make the file world writable (chmod 666). Then anyone on your server can edit the file; maybe you don't like that. 2. Make the file world writable but append-only, restructuring your program so that it's okay that the file is only appended to. Then anyone on the server can append to the file, but you can't lose a previous state of the file. 3. Run the web server as alice through whatever mechanism you like. Then if a script kiddie hacks it, he can pretend to be alice. 4. Write a file server to moderate access to B so that the web server programs don't have to be privileged and you can restrict the set of allowed operations as much as you want. As an example, if I were particularly concerned, I could run the wikifs as a special "wiki" user and then the web server programs could still interact with wikifs through the file system as none. In fact, I'm not concerned, so I run the wikifs as none, and all the wiki data is chmod 666. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 11:46:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 11:46:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32754 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 11:46:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32750 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 11:46:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 11:46:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 94CB419A27; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:46:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from smtp1.san.rr.com (smtp1.san.rr.com [24.25.195.37]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5042119A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from san.rr.com (dt035n0c.san.rr.com [24.30.140.12]) by smtp1.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g1D2jMP21784 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:45:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C69D398.1040703@san.rr.com> From: Eric Dorman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] booting plan9 without a standard PC bios References: <3C694E45.7DD11B93@strakt.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:46:48 -0800 ow. --eric Boyd Roberts wrote: >Ronald G Minnich wrote: > >>Congrats to Andrey who dealt with all this fun. Now he is off to Paris to >>take a break. Why don't I get breaks like that? >> > >I did: > > http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/paris/knee/17-4-2000/face.jpg > http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/paris/knee/17-4-2000/profil.jpg > >:( > From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 12:21:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 12:21:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1030 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 12:21:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1015 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 12:21:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 12:21:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2B58B19A6E; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:21:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E692619988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:20:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <65229dac63ad48dcc92e60c777353f82@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: presotto@closedmind.org To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] CGI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-fuvfpkvmumiyyeqdkchndyhddy" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:20:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-fuvfpkvmumiyyeqdkchndyhddy Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In general, I agree with russ. The best way to do it would be to not have to run as alice or to run the httpd as alice. The latter requires changing it to avoid the 'becomenone' routine and have alice start it herself. You could run arbitrarily many httpd's just by using the -a option and specifying a different port to listen for each, e.g. -a tcp!*!8000. ------ As rsc pointed out, you can take a hint from our mail system. Smtpd runs as none but can deliver mail into anyones mail file. The files are protected alrw--w--w-, i.e., append only, exclusive access and writeable by anyone. I have a lock file in addition to the mbox. The lock file, is protected alrw-rw-rw-. When I want to do anything to the mail box, I: /* try to set the lock */ for(tries=0; tries < Maxtries && (lock=open(L.mbox))<0; tries++) sleep(some time); if(lock < 0) fatal("getting lock"); /* affect/read mail box */ ... /* unlock */ close(lock); I still leave the 'l' bit on the mailbox to catch any stupid accidents. You could do something similar, except you'ld probably want to make your alice file alrw-rw-rw-. That's what I did with mail anyways... ------ You could also go nuts and run a server as alice and have one of the httpd magic files pass requests to it. I think this is overkill but doable. Rsc's idea of a alicefs is just a special case of this. The problem here though is getting the server's running as alice every reboot. You'ld probably need cron to start if for you if it wasn't already started. --upas-fuvfpkvmumiyyeqdkchndyhddy Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:11:46 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Tue Feb 12 20:11:44 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 30B2319A60; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:11:29 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C8B4919A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 20:09:25 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020213010925.C8B4919A00@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] CGI Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:05:34 +0900 Hello 9fans, Now I am considering about CGI environment of Web server. Let A be a CGI program that is owned by user alice, and assume the program needs to read from file B that must be protected to the accesses from other users. That is, the permission mode is required to be, -r--r----- 16 alice alice .... B Then how can we design Web server on Plan9? In case of UNIX, this problem may be solved using SETUID, or more safely solved using CGI wrapper. Plan9 does not have such an easy way for `none' to become `alice'. Authentication must be required. Public key cryptography may be applied. Let the Web server start with server mode, then httpd can read secret key that is in a file owned by bootes with 400 permission. User alice encrypts her password using public key and puts it somewhere. In executing A, httpd decrypt her key and then become `alice'. I am afraid this scheem gives too much right to httpd. We need only a given CGI can read a given file. Do you have oher solutions? Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp --upas-fuvfpkvmumiyyeqdkchndyhddy-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 14:30:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 14:30:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3747 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 14:30:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3743 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 14:30:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 14:30:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C62EB199B9; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:30:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from einstein.ssz.com (einstein.ssz.com [204.96.2.99]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0CA0019988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 00:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ravage@localhost) by einstein.ssz.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA07457; Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:38:52 -0600 From: Jim Choate To: alg@austinlug.org Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, austin-cpunks@einstein.ssz.com, sci-tech@einstein.ssz.com, cypherpunks@einstein.ssz.com, The Club Inferno , root@207.200.56.2, hangar18@einstein.ssz.com, openforge@einstein.ssz.com, moshe@openmosix.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [9fans] OT: OpenForge Re: new here (fwd) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 23:38:52 -0600 (CST) Hi, One time notice... The name resolver issues are resolved. The domains should be updated and active by Thursday. We'll be moving SSZ over from it's current connection sometime this weekend. All the current SSZ mailing lists will move with the exeption of the Cypherpunks related ones and Club Inferno. These bring me entirely too many subpeonas and visits from 'shady characters' for me to want to share that privilige with others ;) The Austin Cypherpunks are expected to be active in projects however (I'm still wanting to build a radiation based diode RNG, versus a Geiger-Meuller tube). First I need to get 'igor' (Perl based anon remailer/mail list manager) working and that isn't really scheduled to even start until something like July (we've got to finish the initial server farm first). Stu is working on the physical meeting and we should have something worked out in the next week or two. We hope to have the first meets the last of Feb. or first week of March. We hope to have weekly meetings with topics in a variety of areas. However, we are NOT primarily a support organization, we are focused on projects and services. The Austin Cypherpunks will continue with their traditional monthly 'social' meeting. For more mundane project discussion one of the Open Groups meetings will be more workable. The 802.11b's are about 10 miles apart (~183@Target, & ~48th@Duval, we'll be adding one in Leander in the near term as well) and will be accessible only by Open Forge/Hangar 18 participants (to all those local users groups that declined our invitation - your loss - we tried to be more liberal and you said 'no'). The proposed site in Elgin was dropped when the sponsor decided it wasn't worth his time. We are looking for any potential participants in that area. I understand that OpenMosix is now available (see /. for more info). As soon as I can get some time I'll build up a box and make it available to participants. Thank you and good night. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:46:15 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Choate Reply-To: openforge@ssz.com To: hangar18@einstein.ssz.com Cc: openforge@einstein.ssz.com Subject: OpenForge Re: new here Welcome Subhash, On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Prajapati, Subhash wrote: > Guys I have been in touch with Linux for the > past 1.5 years and have loved it. > I used SuSE linux 7.0 and have installed it > on many occasions. > > I heard that Plan9 is much better than any > other Unix ... and want to try it out. > so i joined this news group Then learn rule #1 - NO OS WARS, we have better things to do with our time. If you have access to a "Running Linux" 1st or 2nd ed., look in the appendix under sites to obtain Linux in the 512 area code...:) > How shud i proceed... > Will downloading the OS and installing it > rightaway be an advisable step, or shud I > read some documentation about this OS first. What I discovered is that Plan 9 is a distributed OS, therefore to use it you need a distributed infrastructure. That implies several machines. I'd suggest loading a I/O-Auth server and learn the basic sys admin (the first thing you ALWAYS do with a OS after getting a good load). Then build a file server, followed by at least two (2) process boxes. Our current state is that we have the T1 in stalled and two 802.11b wireless AP's in Austin, Tx. We are currently fighting name resolver issues under SuSE 7.3, as soon as they are resolved in the next couple of days we'll link the two sites together (ie ssz.com w/ mansion.org & open-forge.org/com goes live). Once we have the firewall and routing issues taken care of we'll be replacing our primary DNS machine with a Plan 9 box (once we figure out how). The best target for a Plan 9 cluster of services (ie a I/O/Auth/DNS server, a 80G file server, and at least two process boxes is July). We stongly(!) invite others to put up resources sooner. Once the resources are up we've got to figure out a way to control access (probably a sign-up via webpage). Hangar 18 (and Open Forge) is not the usual 'user group'. We are a co-op. This means that if you want to play, you have to provide some sort of service to grow the co-op. Rule #2: No free loaders or lurkers. If you're not working on an active project you're in the wrong place. If you just want to munge system resources then you'll have to find a current co-op member who is willing to give away access gratis. The Open Forge group doesn't do that. This means that in order to get a reliable connection to Open Forge through ssz.com, mansion.org, or open-forge.org/com you'll need to have something to share with the community. It could be a machine with 24*365 access (part-time isn't acceptable for servers), program on projects, host a cluster of mail lists (we're currently at 200+ when we go live). Users will of course be able to access the 80G file server and a small (maybe 2-4) sub-set of our planned process cluster. This small set of resources will be available for anyone to use via Plan 9 (file and process) or Linux and other OS'es (NFS to the file server only currently). The first time is free ;) If you'd like more info: http://einstein.ssz.com/hangar18 http://einstein.ssz.com/openforge Rule #3: In general we are NOT working with the Bell Labs organization or any of their sub-groups or associates. Consider it a core split of the development community from the get go. They aren't interested in several of the aspects that Hangar 18 is focused on and we don't really like their attitude (we do acknowledge their technical skills and admire them for it). So outside of sharing code we don't forsee a lot of interaction. Otherwise one of us would have to hurt the other I suspect ;) I'd suggest you also take a look at Unununium as well. Very cool kernel-less design. > Like Maurice Bach is a good beginning for > Unix what would you suggest for Plan 9 ? That sentence makes zero sense to me, who or what is a 'Maurice Bach'? A books author? I prefer the O'Reilly sys-admin books for Unix but there ain't such a beastie for Plan 9. The consequence is read the supplied dox and peruse the source Luke... Again welcome aboard! -- ____________________________________________________________________ James Choate - ravage@ssz.com - www.ssz.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 15:36:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 15:36:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5210 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 15:36:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5206 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 15:36:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 15:36:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D517E19A7B; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:36:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E34971998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Wed Feb 13 01:34:49 EST 2002 Message-ID: <16f40d5e66795bd36a354d740e9e574e@plan9.bell-labs.com> Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Wed Feb 13 01:34:47 EST 2002 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] cvs plumbing trick Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:34:46 -0500 for the cvs users -- if you set EDITOR=plumbit in your profile, then you can run "cvs ci" or however you spell it, and when it wants a commit log entry, acme or sam will pop up a new editing window with the template. you edit, write, close, and cvs continues. note that this makes Put equivalent to acme mail's Post -- as soon as you write it, it's sent. g% cat /bin/plumbit #!/bin/rc qid=`{ls -lq $1 | awk '{print $1, $2, $3}'} qid=$"qid B $* while(){ nqid=`{ls -lq $1 | awk '{print $1, $2, $3}'} nqid=$"nqid if(! ~ $qid $nqid) exit sleep 1 } g% From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 17:52:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 17:52:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8341 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 17:52:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8337 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 17:52:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 17:52:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F3AE219A60; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:52:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5BAEA19A75 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:51:29 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: joelcsalomon@excite.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Booting Plan9 after installation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020213085129.5BAEA19A75@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:06:14 +0100 : Apparently, the 9load on the 9fat sub-partition is still not found. I : get PBS... Plan 9 from Bell Labs, a _long_ pause, then it finally : finds my 9load in /dev/sdC0/dos ( or some similar way of indicating The long pause may be due to 9load looking at the fd device, at least my 9load does so on certain fd devices. What I did on the machine involved was to compile a changed 9load that does not look into the fd device. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 13 21:45:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 13 21:45:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10797 invoked by uid 1020); 13 Feb 2002 21:45:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10793 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2002 21:45:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 13 Feb 2002 21:45:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BB82619A83; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:45:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wintermute.cse.psu.edu (wintermute.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.5]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 82FD619A5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by wintermute.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server (Backup MX)) with ESMTP id F0E3A73CA0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA14085 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:26:46 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] cvs plumbing trick Message-ID: <20020213102645.B11680@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <16f40d5e66795bd36a354d740e9e574e@plan9.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <16f40d5e66795bd36a354d740e9e574e@plan9.bell-labs.com>; from Russ Cox on Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 01:34:46AM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:26:46 +0200 On Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 01:34:46AM -0500, Russ Cox wrote: > > note that this makes Put equivalent to > acme mail's Post -- as soon as you write > it, it's sent. > Cool, Russ. You mentioned a while back that you were working on a fresher version of CVS and that you'd be posting it. I've been stalling my most recent installation because it's not urgent and therefore I could wait. This is just a nudge :-) ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 01:23:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 01:23:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 12466 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 01:23:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12462 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 01:23:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 01:23:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 83C77199BE; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:23:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 996AD199BE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03281 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:22:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from copernicus.cs.utwente.nl by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.10.2+Sun/csrelay-Sol1.4/RB) id g1DGMXh10525; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:22:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by copernicus.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g1DGMVs13382 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:22:31 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202131622.g1DGMVs13382@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: copernicus.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:22:31 +0100 Since we upgraded here from solaris 2.6 to 2.8 (also, the local ethernet was upgraded from 10Mb to 100Mb) drawterm now hangs regularly, burning cpu cycles without visible effect, most often when I'm doing something in acme. When I look with dbx it seems to hang in ipread. Recompiling drawterm on solaris 2.8 did not help. The drawterm code I use is from March 28 2001 (did I miss an update?) Any ideas? (or places where it _does_ work on solaris 2.8?) Attached to process 5154 with 11 LWPs t@1 (l@1) stopped in _so_recv at 0xff118530 0xff118530: _so_recv+0x0008: ta 0x8 Current function is ipread 397 r = recv(c->sfd, a, n, 0); (/opt/SUNWspro/bin/../WS6/bin/sparcv9/dbx) where current thread: t@1 [1] _so_recv(0xd, 0x2c4788, 0x20a0, 0x0, 0xfffffffffffffff8, 0x8000), at 0xff118530 =>[2] ipread(ch = 0x20d718, a = 0x2c4788, n = 8352, offset = 0), line 397 in "devip-unix.c" [3] exportproc(fs = 0x20f998), line 173 in "exportfs.c" [4] sysexport(fd = 4), line 114 in "exportfs.c" [5] main(argc = 0, argv = 0xffbece78), line 120 in "drawterm.c" (/opt/SUNWspro/bin/../WS6/bin/sparcv9/dbx) list 397 r = recv(c->sfd, a, n, 0); 398 if(r < 0) 399 error(strerror(errno)); 400 return r; 401 } 402 } 403 404 static void 405 setladdr(Conv *c) 406 { Thanks, Axel. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 03:39:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 03:39:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13289 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 03:39:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13285 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 03:39:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 03:39:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 42D6E19A04; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:39:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A74C519A0C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1DIYipZ008116 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:34:44 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6AB2B3.B8C498CE@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "9fans@cse.psu.edu" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] re-install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 19:38:43 +0100 For whatever reason I had to do a VAIO re-install and the install process was smart enough to use my old kfs and not to touch stuff that was 'locally modified' -- cool! Even the 'special' VAIO re-install CD's just left my plan 9 partition alone -- so Sony can't be all bad ... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 15:00:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 15:00:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23547 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 15:00:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23543 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 15:00:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 15:00:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EBAE6199E4; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:00:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7461919A02 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Thu Feb 14 00:59:43 EST 2002 Received: from plan9.eecs.harvard.edu ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Thu Feb 14 00:59:41 EST 2002 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] new cvs Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:59:40 -0500 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/cvs.tgz has a new CVS distribution. Thanks to Lucio for pointing out that I'd failed to post it, and for checking to make sure that it compiles and appears to work on 9P1 systems. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 15:44:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 15:44:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24821 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 15:44:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24817 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 15:44:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 15:44:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 465F419A61; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:44:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 628A1199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA16818 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:33:41 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new cvs Message-ID: <20020214083340.K14335@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from Russ Cox on Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:59:40AM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 08:33:40 +0200 On Thu, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:59:40AM -0500, Russ Cox wrote: > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/cvs.tgz > has a new CVS distribution. Thanks to Lucio for > pointing out that I'd failed to post it, and for > checking to make sure that it compiles and appears > to work on 9P1 systems. > It was cvs.9gz originally, should we stick to that format or is that impractical? ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 18:47:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 18:47:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30431 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 18:47:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30427 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 18:47:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 18:47:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE2B219A0C; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:47:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AAEC319A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bIJh-0000BJ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:36:37 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C6AD722.BBBCB951@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Subject: [9fans] Re: Audio - how? plus missing audio(7) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:36:28 GMT Joel Salomon wrote: > I have a Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16 PCI that I thought should > work. No, Creative uses misleading packaging. It's only "compatible" with a genuine SoundBlaster-16 with help from a software emulation, part of the (Windows) driver, which Plan 9 doesn't provide. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 23:06:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 23:06:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 671 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 23:06:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 667 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 23:06:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 23:06:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7F291199B7; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:06:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D308119A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:05:01 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020214140501.D308119A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] CGI Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:01:03 +0900 Hello russ and presotto, Thank you for your advices. Web server that is running on Plan9 can configure namespace and therefore can hide other user's documents and CGIs. You can find such a server at my ftp (ftp://ar.plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp). So, I decided to run the server as user `web'. User `web' is not a real user, that is, the user need not to have his file. If alice have a file that she want to be accessed only by her and by her CGI, sh can set: -lrw-rw---- alice web ... This file is hided from other users CGI, so no one can access it via malicious CGI. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 14 23:34:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 14 23:34:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 880 invoked by uid 1020); 14 Feb 2002 23:34:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 876 invoked from network); 14 Feb 2002 23:34:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 14 Feb 2002 23:34:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C10719A0B; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:34:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id AC58219A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:33:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0653730242f832cefca429c7619f87bc@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] new cvs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:32:55 -0500 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/cvs.9gz instead. When I put the tgz together, I didn't have my cvs.9gz proto file handy. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 00:06:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 00:06:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1101 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 00:06:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1097 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 00:06:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 00:06:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A731319A1C; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:06:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8EEC019A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id g1EF5FhM018864 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1EF5FP01844 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202141505.g1EF5FP01844@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: YgTuYL078lPylDmt+1q7RA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Subject: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) With the Inferno mail list down I hope to reach 'the right people' here at 9fans. If Inferno related emails are considered bandwith waisting, please let me know and I will stop. I have stumbled upon 2 things in Limbo that I would like to warn about (presumably somebody else is as stupid as I am :-) 1 Unintended variable shadowing: n := 3 while (n > 0) { n:= n - 1; # i know of n--, but this is an example } as is obvious (afterwards), n will never reach 0. i really think the compiler should warn about this. 2 No array bounds checking (only for JIT): The below program will crash at the return statement in crash(), not in the for() loop. Moreover, this only happens when using JIT. bengt implement Crash; include "draw.m"; include "sys.m"; sys: Sys; Crash: module { init: fn(nil: ref Draw->Context, args: list of string); }; init(nil: ref Draw->Context, args: list of string) { sys = load Sys Sys->PATH; a:= crash( ); return; } crash( ): array of byte { result:= array [1] of byte; for (i:= 0; i < 10; i++) { sys->print( "%d\n", i ); result[i] = byte 0; sys->print( "%d\n", len result ); } return result[:5]; } From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 00:17:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 00:17:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1248 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 00:17:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1244 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 00:17:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 00:17:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9446319A2F; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:17:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 545B919A57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1EF9ppZ016715 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:09:51 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6BD43D.F7950AE5@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "9fans@cse.psu.edu" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] more/another VAIO Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:14:05 +0100 Re-installed with the latest distribution and it finds my i82557. Time to build it into a file/auth server. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 00:35:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 00:35:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1342 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 00:35:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1338 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 00:35:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 00:35:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 742CA19A54; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:35:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6CD4D199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:34:52 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-gokpwfvlubcctinhxmgjauvfme" Message-Id: <20020214153452.6CD4D199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:40:40 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-gokpwfvlubcctinhxmgjauvfme Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>1 shadowing shad.b:12: warning: redeclaration of local n, previously declared as a local on line shad.b:10 request warnings and you'll get them (-w option to limbo) >>2 no bounds check in JIT there's a plan to make them available in JIT mode as well. (at least optionally: there are some things that can be proved correct and don't need them but could use the speed.) --upas-gokpwfvlubcctinhxmgjauvfme Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu> Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk id 1013699204:20:00405:221; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:06:44 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa2104450; 14 Feb 2002 15:06 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A731319A1C; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:06:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8EEC019A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id g1EF5FhM018864 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1EF5FP01844 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202141505.g1EF5FP01844@cbe.ericsson.se> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: YgTuYL078lPylDmt+1q7RA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Subject: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:05:15 +0100 (MET) With the Inferno mail list down I hope to reach 'the right people' here at 9fans. If Inferno related emails are considered bandwith waisting, please let me know and I will stop. I have stumbled upon 2 things in Limbo that I would like to warn about (presumably somebody else is as stupid as I am :-) 1 Unintended variable shadowing: n := 3 while (n > 0) { n:= n - 1; # i know of n--, but this is an example } as is obvious (afterwards), n will never reach 0. i really think the compiler should warn about this. 2 No array bounds checking (only for JIT): The below program will crash at the return statement in crash(), not in the for() loop. Moreover, this only happens when using JIT. bengt implement Crash; include "draw.m"; include "sys.m"; sys: Sys; Crash: module { init: fn(nil: ref Draw->Context, args: list of string); }; init(nil: ref Draw->Context, args: list of string) { sys = load Sys Sys->PATH; a:= crash( ); return; } crash( ): array of byte { result:= array [1] of byte; for (i:= 0; i < 10; i++) { sys->print( "%d\n", i ); result[i] = byte 0; sys->print( "%d\n", len result ); } return result[:5]; } --upas-gokpwfvlubcctinhxmgjauvfme-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 00:39:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 00:39:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1379 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 00:39:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1375 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 00:39:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 00:39:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9CED0199BB; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:39:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2134E19A5A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:38:22 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020214153822.2134E19A5A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:43:09 0000 >>With the Inferno mail list down I hope to reach 'the right people' here at >>9fans. i'm not sure what happened to it; at first it looked as though pip had gone on holiday and could mend it when he got back but i think we'll set up yet another one ourselves. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 01:18:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 01:18:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1631 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 01:18:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1627 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 01:18:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 01:18:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F133119A0D; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:18:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mail.snellwilcox.com (mail.snellwilcox.com [195.173.15.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8FC42199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:17:28 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Received: from ccMail by snellwilcox.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.52.01.1) id 1463098921; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:17:41 +0000 Importance: normal Priority: normal Message-Id: <1463098921@snellwilcox.com> X-MIME-Engine: v0.90 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Id: <1463098921-1@snellwilcox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:02 +0000 Hi, Are there any 16bit ports of the plan9 C compiler? We do embedded software using the Siemens / Infineon 80C165 CPU (Big brother of the 8051) and would love to use Plan9 as the main development platform. I know the plan9 compiler has been designed to be portable but has anyone tried to port it to a 16 bit CPU? Does anyone have opinions on how difficult it might be? I guess I am just dreaming... but maybe one day, when I have time... -Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this communication are confidential to the normal user of the email address to which it was sent. If you have received this email in error, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If this is the case, please notify the sender and delete this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 02:16:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 02:16:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1931 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 02:16:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1927 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 02:16:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 02:16:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DE70419A29; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:16:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A14CB199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bPNW-0000xv-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:09:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Thomas Baruchel Message-ID: <90918849.0202140746.4df39992@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] [troff] Is there a macro package called -mpm ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:08:54 GMT Hi, I am not a plan9 user, and I can't download the 60Mb archive. Besides, I am not even certain there is what I am looking for in it. Is there in the Plan9 distribution, a macro package for troff, called -mpm ? There seems to habe been one in the original Unix distribution. Groff doesn't provide it. I am looking for it, because I would like to study it and try to make a clone for groff. Could you tell me by mail at the following address: thomas dot baruchel @at@ libertysurf dot fr (sorry for that, but I recently received 800 identical pornographical messages in a few hours :-( I know about the licence problems, but I can't download the whole archive for a file of a kew Kb. Since I can assure my purposes are only the ones I describes above, would someone be kind enough to send the file to me ? (I will destroy it after having studied it) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 02:21:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 02:21:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1968 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 02:21:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1964 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 02:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 02:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 31B3019A2D; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:21:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 668C119A65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bPPN-00012F-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:10:57 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87k7tgf12g.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <3C6AD722.BBBCB951@null.net> Subject: [9fans] Re: Audio - how? plus missing audio(7) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:09:06 GMT "Douglas A. Gwyn" writes: > Joel Salomon wrote: > > I have a Creative Labs Sound Blaster 16 PCI that I thought should > > work. > > No, Creative uses misleading packaging. It's only "compatible" > with a genuine SoundBlaster-16 with help from a software emulation, > part of the (Windows) driver, which Plan 9 doesn't provide. However, Creative has been pretty cooperative with helping make free software drivers for Linux, so I would expect that it shouldn't be too hard to write a Plan 9 driver by looking at the Linux one. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 02:53:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 02:53:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2120 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 02:53:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2116 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 02:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 02:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A784119A3F; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:53:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B597F199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:52:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0ce9a17866461d0a3e0a61628c4149a9@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] [troff] Is there a macro package called -mpm ? From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-wnnfbneirzpjzzrtpxqsivpjsg" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:52:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-wnnfbneirzpjzzrtpxqsivpjsg Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enjoy. --upas-wnnfbneirzpjzzrtpxqsivpjsg Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline # To unbundle, run this file echo README sed 's/.//' >README <<'//GO.SYSIN DD README' -An experiment in page makeup for troff output... - --mpm is a version of standard -ms that causes extra -information for vertical justification and figure -placement to be included in troff output. Commands that -have been augmented to provide paddable space are - - .SH and .NH - .PP and .LP no space if \n(PD is 0; normally .nr PD 0.3v; leave at least 1u - .IP and .QP also - .EQ and .EN - .TS and .TE no space if \n(TS is 0; normally .nr TS 0.5v - .PS and .PE - .P1 and .P2 display programs in CW font - .DS and .DE - .QS and .QE - -Other commands, registers, strings, etc.: - - .SP n explicit paddable space, just like .sp n. - generally you should ALWAYS use .SP instead of .sp. - if you need exactly a given vertical space, you can say - .SP 3i exactly - this space won't be padded. - .Tm words prints "words" and the output page number on stderr - sorry about the spelling; -ms pre-empted .TM - .NE n like .ne. note: does not cause a break - - Others may be added as the need arises. - - .nr FO n Set the page length. This value is the bottom of - the text on the page; a bottom title may lie below. - default is 10i (== 10 inches). - %o, %e are strings containing odd and even page titles - %# is the current page number (often useless) - .PT is a macro invoked at the top of each "page"; - it will normally use %e, %o and %#. There is also - a .BT for page bottoms if desired. - .BP force a page break - .FL force all waiting figures out before any more running text - .1C, .2C multiple columns; number registers CW and GW set - the column and gutter width if you don't like the default. - absent a .FC command, all two-column contents collect - together on the page - .FC freeze current two-column contents and start afresh. - necessary if you want to switch between 1 and 2 column - text and keep the relative order among them. - -Usage is some variant of - - ... | troff -mpm - -/usr/lib/tmac/pm is the page-justifier itself; it is called automatically -by the -mpm macro package. If you are installing this yourself, you will -have to edit the 2nd line of tmac.pm to arrange that pm is called directly -from troff. - -There are several lines in tmac.pm that say - .so /n/coma/usr/bwk/... -You should delete these; they are placeholders for some experiments. - -If you use -mm, you are more or less out of luck, although we will be -happy to provide a crude and incomplete program that purports to convert --mm to -ms. It may suggest what you need but it won't do the job. - -To compile pm, you need a C++ compiler, preferably release 2.0 or later. -Put the .c and .h files in a directory, and type - make -This process may well fail. The usual cause is that different systems -put function declarations in different header files, and C++ insists that -all functions be properly declared. You can almost always get through this -part by adding function declarations. The most likely offender is malloc; -a line like - extern char *malloc(int); -near the top of slug.c will solve this one. - - -Bugs, etc.: - - not all -ms commands have been decorated; in particular, - the rich variety of document types (TM, CSTR, etc.,) is not - really supported. - - there are problems with funny first pages and troff input - that moves back up the page. - - multiple columns: only .2C is available. The program does not check - whether something is wide or narrow: user has responsibility to mark - which with .1C or .2C. - - headings are a bit tricky if you want things like - running titles that include the current section title. - normally a two-pass procedure using .Tm is needed. - - It's a pain to force a blank vertical space of specified height. - Try this: - .de x - \v'\\$1'\0\h'-\w'\0'u'\c - .. - .x 2.5i - - -If you want to roll your own, the following components are -included in pm's "command language". They are inserted in -the troff output in the form of "x X ..." commands, which -are created either by \X'...' or by the .X macro in -mpm. -Look at how they are used in /usr/lib/tmac/tmac.pm for examples. - - -BS n breakable stream n = min # lines that must appear on page - use: PP, LP, IP, ... - -US unbreakable stream use: KS/KE, DS/DE, TS/TE, EQ/EN, PS/PE, etc. - -BF v breakable float v = preferred vertical location of box center - use: FS/FE - use two successive BF's to give two preferences - -UF v unbreakable float v = preferred vertical location of box center - use: KF/KE - use two successive UF's to give two preferences - -PT page title use: user has absolute control between PT and END - no SP's or other pm commands inside are processed - -BT bottom title use: user has absolute control between BT and END - -END end end a US, BF, UF, PT, or BT - all constructs nest, but a float within another float - or a US block will not float within or outside the block - -NE n need break page if a VBOX of height n would not fit on page - use: .NE n - -SP n space paddable space of n - use: .SP n - -PARM NP v top of pm text at v - new page - -PARM FO v bottom of pm text at v - footer length of text on page = FO-NP - -PARM PL v physical page ends at v - page length default = FO + NP - -PARM MF x tolerance to prevent padding - minimum fullness default = 0.9 - -PARM CT x tolerance for two-column operation - column tolerance default = 0.5 - -PARM DBG x debugging flag - -TM str message .Tm words prints on stderr - -MC n o multiple column n columns, offset o. - Only 1 and 2 columns will work. - -CMD BP break page force page break - -CMD FL flush force all queued figures out before any more - stream material is output - -CMD FC freeze columns force out current two-column contents; - start a fresh one - -Something like this will probably have to be added: - -NC new column HARD! - -Known botches in the existing implementation of pm: - -If a footnote is split across two pages, any associated separator line -will not be copied. If there are multiple footnotes on one page, there -will be multiple separators too. -mpm's .FS macro does not provide a -separator. If you want a separator line, put it in explicitly with -a call to the .FA macro. - -There are not enough settable parameters; in particular, the -way to control the height is a botch. - - -Historical note: There is a simpler version of pm and -mpm -called pj and -mpj that only does vertical justification of -pages that have already been laid out by conventional means. -This simpler version may be adequate, but it is no longer -supported and memory of how it works is growing dim. //GO.SYSIN DD README echo misc.c sed 's/.//' >misc.c <<'//GO.SYSIN DD misc.c' -#include "misc.h" - -char errbuf[200]; -char *progname; -int wantwarn = 0; - -int dbg = 0; -// dbg = 1 : dump slugs -// dbg = 2 : dump ranges -// dbg = 4 : report function entry -// dbg = 8 : follow queue progress -// dbg = 16: follow page fill progress //GO.SYSIN DD misc.c echo misc.h sed 's/.//' >misc.h <<'//GO.SYSIN DD misc.h' -#include -#include -#include -#include -#include - -extern char errbuf[]; -extern char *progname; -extern int linenum; -extern int wantwarn; - -// #define ERROR fflush(stdout), fprintf(stderr, "%s: ", progname), fprintf(stderr, -// #define FATAL ), exit(1) -// #define WARNING ) - -#define ERROR fprintf(stdout, "\n#MESSAGE TO USER: "), sprintf(errbuf, -#define FATAL ), fputs(errbuf, stdout), \ - fprintf(stderr, "%s: ", progname), \ - fputs(errbuf, stderr), \ - fflush(stdout), \ - exit(1) -#define WARNING ), fputs(errbuf, stdout), \ - wantwarn ? \ - fprintf(stderr, "%s: ", progname), \ - fputs(errbuf, stderr) : 0, \ - fflush(stdout) - -#define eq(s,t) (strcmp(s,t) == 0) - -inline max(int x, int y) { return x > y ? x : y; } -inline min(int x, int y) { return x > y ? y : x; } -inline abs(int x) { return (x >= 0) ? x : -x; } - -extern int dbg; - -extern int pn, userpn; // actual and user-defined page numbers -extern int pagetop, pagebot; // printing margins -extern int physbot; // physical bottom of the page //GO.SYSIN DD misc.h echo mkfile sed 's/.//' >mkfile <<'//GO.SYSIN DD mkfile' -page.c <<'//GO.SYSIN DD page.c' -#include "misc.h" -#include "slug.h" -#include "range.h" -#include "page.h" - -const MAXRANGES = 1000; -static range *ptemp[MAXRANGES]; // for movefloats() - -static void swapright(int n) // used by movefloats() -{ - range *t = ptemp[n]; - ptemp[n] = ptemp[n+1]; - ptemp[n+1] = t; - ptemp[n]->setaccum( ptemp[n+1]->accum() - - ptemp[n+1]->rawht() + ptemp[n]->rawht() ); - ptemp[n+1]->setaccum( ptemp[n]->accum() + ptemp[n+1]->rawht() ); -} - -// Figure out the goal position for each floating range on scratch, -// and move it past stream ranges until it's as close to its goal as possible. -static void movefloats(stream *scratch, double scale) -{ - const int Huge = 100000; - for (int nranges = 0; scratch->more(); scratch->advance()) - ptemp[nranges++] = scratch->current(); - scratch->freeall(); - ufrange rtemp; - ptemp[nranges] = &rtemp; - rtemp.setgoal(Huge); - int accumV = 0; // compute accum values and - for (int i = 0; i < nranges; i++) { // pick closest goal for floats - ptemp[i]->pickgoal(accumV, scale); - ptemp[i]->setaccum(accumV += ptemp[i]->rawht()); - } - int j; // index for inner loop below: - for (i = nranges; --i >= 0; ) // stably sort floats to bottom - for (j = i; j < nranges; j++) - if (ptemp[j]->goal() > ptemp[j+1]->goal()) - swapright(j); - else - break; - if (dbg & 16) - printf("#movefloats: before floating, from bottom:\n"); - for (i = nranges; --i >= 0; ) { // find topmost float - if (ptemp[i]->goal() == NOGOAL) - break; - if (dbg & 16) - printf("# serialno %d goal %d height %d\n", - ptemp[i]->serialno(), ptemp[i]->goal(), - ptemp[i]->rawht()); - } // i+1 is topmost float - for (i++ ; i < nranges; i++) // move each float up the page - for (j = i; j > 0; j--) // as long as closer to its goal - if (ptemp[j]->goal() - <= ptemp[j-1]->accum() + ptemp[j]->rawht()/2 - && ptemp[j-1]->goal() == NOGOAL) - swapright(j-1); - else - break; - if (ptemp[nranges] != &rtemp) - ERROR "goal sentinel has disappeared from movefloats" FATAL; - for (i = 0; i < nranges; i++) // copy sorted list back - scratch->append(ptemp[i]); -} - -// Traverse the leaves of a tree of ranges, filtering out only SP and VBOX. -static range *filter(generator *g) -{ - range *r; - while (r = g->next()) - if (r->isvbox() || r->issp()) - break; - return r; -} - -// Zero out leading and trailing spaces; coalesce adjacent SP's. -static void trimspace(stream *scratch) -{ - range *r, *prevr = 0; - for (generator g = scratch; (r = filter(&g)) != 0 && r->issp(); prevr = r) - r->setheight(0); // zap leading SP - for ( ; (r = filter(&g)) != 0; prevr = r) - if (r->issp()) - if (prevr && prevr->issp()) { - // coalesce adjacent SPs - r->setheight(max(r->rawht(), prevr->height())); - prevr->setheight(0); - } else // a VBOX intervened - r->setheight(r->rawht()); - if (prevr && prevr->issp()) // zap *all* trailing space - prevr->setheight(0); // (since it all coalesced - // into the last one) -} - -// Pad the non-zero SP's in scratch so the total height is wantht. -// Note that the SP values in scratch are not the raw values, and -// indeed may already have been padded. -static void justify(stream *scratch, int wantht) -{ - range *r; - int nsp = 0, hsp = 0; - - int adjht = scratch->height(); - // Find all the spaces. - for (generator g = scratch; r = g.next(); ) - if (r->issp() && r->height() > 0) { - nsp++; - hsp += r->height(); - } - int excess = wantht - adjht; - if (excess < 0) - ERROR "something on page %d is oversize by %d\n", - userpn, -excess WARNING; - if (dbg & 16) - printf("# justify %d: excess %d nsp %d hsp %d adjht %d\n", - userpn, excess, nsp, hsp, adjht); - if (excess <= 0 || nsp == 0) - return; - // Redistribute the excess space. - for (g = scratch; r = g.next(); ) - if (r->issp() && r->height() > 0) { - int delta = (int) ((float)(r->height()*excess)/hsp + 0.5); - if (dbg & 16) - printf("# pad space %d by %d: hsp %d excess %d\n", - r->height(), delta, hsp, excess); - r->setheight(r->height() + delta); - } -} - -// If r were added to s, would the height of the composed result be at most maxht? -int wouldfit(range *r, stream *s, int maxht) -{ - if (r->rawht() + s->rawht() <= maxht) - return 1; // the conservative test succeeded - stream scratch; // local playground for costly test - for (stream cd = *s; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - scratch.append(r); - movefloats(&scratch, ((double) scratch.rawht())/maxht); - trimspace(&scratch); - int retval = scratch.height() <= maxht; - scratch.freeall(); - return retval; -} - -// If s1 were added to s, would the height of the composed result be at most maxht? -// The computational structure is similar to that above. -int wouldfit(stream *s1, stream *s, int maxht) -{ - if (s1->rawht() + s->rawht() <= maxht) - return 1; - stream scratch; - for (stream cd = *s; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - for (cd = *s1; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - movefloats(&scratch, ((double) scratch.rawht())/maxht); - trimspace(&scratch); - int retval = scratch.height() <= maxht; - scratch.freeall(); - return retval; -} - -// All of stream *s is destined for one column or the other; which is it to be? -void multicol::choosecol(stream *s, int goalht) -{ - stream *dest; - if (!leftblocked && wouldfit(s, &(column[0]), goalht)) - dest = &(column[0]); - else { - dest = &(column[1]); - if (!s->current()->floatable()) - // a stream item is going into the right - // column, so no more can go into the left. - leftblocked = 1; - } - for (stream cd = *s; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - dest->append(cd.current()); -} - -double coltol = 0.5; - -// Try, very hard, to put everything in the multicol into two columns -// so that the total height is at most htavail. -void multicol::compose(int defonly) -{ - if (!nonempty()) { - setheight(0); - return; - } - scratch.freeall(); // fill scratch with everything destined - // for either column - for (stream cd = definite; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - if (!defonly) - for (cd = *(currpage->stage); cd.more(); cd.advance()) - if (cd.current()->numcol() == 2) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - scratch.restoreall(); // in particular, floatables' goals - int rawht = scratch.rawht(); - int halfheight = (int)(coltol*rawht); - // choose a goal height - int maxht = defonly ? halfheight : htavail; -secondtry: - for (int i = 0; i < 2; i++) - column[i].freeall(); - leftblocked = 0; - cd = scratch; - while (cd.more()) { - queue ministage; // for the minimally acceptable chunks - ministage.freeall(); // that are to be added to either column - while (cd.more() && !cd.current()->issentinel()) { - ministage.enqueue(cd.current()); - cd.advance(); - } - choosecol(&ministage, maxht); - if (cd.more() && cd.current()->issentinel()) - cd.advance(); // past sentinel - } - if (height() > htavail && maxht != htavail) { - // We tried to balance the columns, but - // the result was too tall. Go back - // and try again with the less ambitious - // goal of fitting the space available. - maxht = htavail; - goto secondtry; - } - for (i = 0; i < 2; i++) { - movefloats(&(column[i]), ((double) column[i].rawht())/currpage->pagesize); - trimspace(&(column[i])); - } - if (dbg & 32) { - printf("#multicol::compose: htavail %d maxht %d dv %d\n", - htavail, maxht, height()); - dump(); - } - if (defonly) - stretch(height()); -} - -// A sequence of two-column ranges waits on the stage. -// So long as the page's skeleton hasn't changed--that is, the maximum height -// available to the two-column chunk is the same--we just use the columns that -// have been built up so far, and choose a column into which to put the stage. -// If the skeleton has changed, however, then we may need to make entirely -// new decisions about which column gets what, so we recompose the whole page. -void multicol::tryout() -{ - if (htavail == prevhtavail) - choosecol(currpage->stage, htavail); - else - currpage->compose(DRAFT); - prevhtavail = htavail; -} - -// Make both columns the same height. -// (Maybe this should also be governed by minfull, -// to prevent padding very underfull columns.) -void multicol::stretch(int wantht) -{ - if (wantht < height()) - ERROR "page %d: two-column chunk cannot shrink\n", userpn FATAL; - for (int i = 0; i < 2; i++) - justify(&(column[i]), wantht); - if (dbg & 16) - printf("#col hts: left %d right %d\n", - column[0].height(), column[1].height()); -} - -// Report an upper bound on how tall the current two-column object is. -// The (possibly composed) heights of the two columns give a crude upper -// bound on the total height. If the result is more than the height -// available for the two-column object, then the columns are each -// composed to give a better estimate of their heights. -int multicol::height() -{ - int retval = max(column[0].height(), column[1].height()); - if (retval < htavail) - return retval; - for (int i = 0; i < 2; i++) { - movefloats(&(column[i]), ((double) column[i].height())/currpage->pagesize); - trimspace(&(column[i])); - } - return max(column[0].height(), column[1].height()); -} - -void multicol::dump() -{ - printf("####2COL dv %d\n", height()); - printf("# left column:\n"); - column[0].dump(); - printf("# right column:\n"); - column[1].dump(); -} - -// From the head of queue qp, peel off a piece whose raw height is at most space. -int peeloff(stream *qp, int space) -{ - stream *s1 = qp->current()->children(); - if (!(s1 && s1->more() && s1->current()->height() <= space)) - // in other words, either qp's head is - // not nested, or its first subrange - return 0; // is also too big, so we give up - qp->split(); - s1 = qp->current()->children(); - stream *s2 = qp->next()->children(); - while (s2->more() && s2->current()->rawht() <= space) { - s1->append(s2->current()); - space -= s2->current()->rawht(); - s2->advance(); - } - return 1; -} - -// There are four possibilities for consecutive calls to tryout(). -// If we're processing a sequence of single-column ranges, tryout() -// uses the original algorithm: (1) conservative test; (2) costly test; -// (3) split a breakable item. -// If we're processing a sequence of double-column ranges, tryout() -// defers to twocol->tryout(), which gradually builds up the contents -// of the two columns until they're as tall as they can be without -// exceeding twocol->htavail. -// If we're processing a sequence of single-column ranges and we -// get a double-column range, then we use compose() to build a -// skeleton page and set twocol->htavail, the maximum height that -// should be occupied by twocol. -// If we're processing a sequence of double-column ranges and we -// get a single-column range, then we should go back and squish -// the double-column chunk as short as possible before we see if -// we can fit the single-column range. -void page::tryout() -{ - if (!stage->more()) - ERROR "empty stage in page::tryout()\n" FATAL; - int curnumcol = stage->current()->numcol(); - if (dbg & 32) { - printf("#page::tryout(): ncol = %d, prevncol = %d; on stage:\n", - curnumcol, prevncol); - stage->dump(); - printf("#END of stage contents\n"); - } - switch(curnumcol) { - default: - ERROR "unexpected number of columns in tryout(): %d\n", - stage->current()->numcol() FATAL; - break; - case 1: - if (prevncol == 2) - compose(FINAL); - if (wouldfit(stage, &definite, pagesize - twocol->height())) - commit(); - else if (stage->current()->breakable() || blank() - && peeloff(stage, - pagesize - (definite.height() + twocol->height()))) { - // first add the peeled-off part that fits - adddef(stage->dequeue()); - // then send the rest back for later - stage->current()->setbreaking(); - welsh(); - } else if (blank()) { - stage->current()->rdump(); - ERROR "A %s is too big to continue.\n", - stage->current()->typename() FATAL; - } else - welsh(); - break; - case 2: - if (prevncol == 1) - compose(DRAFT); - else - twocol->tryout(); - if (scratch.height() <= pagesize) - commit(); - else - welsh(); - break; - } - prevncol = curnumcol; -} - -// To compose the page, we (1) fill scratch with the stuff that's meant to -// go on the page; (2) compose scratch as best we can; (3) set the maximum -// height available to the two-column part of the page; (4) have the two- -// column part compose itself. -// In the computation of twocol->htavail, it does not matter that -// twocol->height() is merely an upper bound, because it is merely being -// subtracted out to give the exact total height of the single-column stuff. -void page::compose(int final) -{ - makescratch(final); - int adjht = scratch.rawht(); - if (dbg & 16) - printf("# page %d measure %d\n", userpn, adjht); - movefloats(&scratch, ((double) adjht)/pagesize); - trimspace(&scratch); - twocol->htavail = pagesize - (scratch.height() - twocol->height()); - twocol->compose(final); - adjht = scratch.height(); - if (dbg & 16) - printf("# page %d measure %d after trim\n", userpn, adjht); -} - -// Fill the scratch area with ranges destined for the page. -// If defonly == 0, then add anything that's on stage--this is a trial run. -// If defonly != 0, use only what's definitely on the page. -void page::makescratch(int defonly) -{ - scratch.freeall(); - for (stream cd = definite; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - if (!defonly) - for (cd = *stage; cd.more(); cd.advance()) - if (cd.current()->numcol() == 1) - scratch.append(cd.current()); - if (twocol->nonempty()) - scratch.append(twocol); -} - -// Accept the current contents of the stage. -// If the stage contains two-column ranges, add a sentinel to indicate the end -// of a chunk of stage contents. -void page::commit() -{ - if (dbg & 4) - printf("#entering page::commit()\n"); - int numcol = 0; - while (stage->more()) { - numcol = stage->current()->numcol(); - adddef(stage->dequeue()); - } - if (numcol == 2) - adddef(new sentrange); -} - -// Send the current contents of the stage back to its source. -void page::welsh() -{ - if (dbg & 4) - printf("#entering page::welsh()\n"); - while (stage->more()) { - range *r = stage->dequeue(); - r->enqueue(ANDBLOCK); - } -} - -enum { USonly = 1 }; - -// So long as anything is eligible to go onto the page, keep trying. -// Once nothing is eligible, compose and justify the page. -void page::fill() -{ - while (stage->prime()) - stage->pend(); - compose(FINAL); - if (dbg & 16) - scratch.dump(); - if (anymore()) { - int adjht = scratch.height(); - if (adjht > minfull*pagesize) { - justify(&scratch, pagesize); - adjht = scratch.height(); - int stretchamt = max(pagesize - adjht, 0); - twocol->stretch(twocol->height() + stretchamt); - // in case the page's stretchability lies - // entirely in its two-column part - } else - ERROR "page %d only %.0f%% full; will not be adjusted\n", - userpn, 100*(double) adjht/pagesize WARNING; - } -} - -void page::adddef(range *r) -{ - if (dbg & 4) - printf("#entering page::adddef()\n"); - switch (r->numcol()) { - case 1: definite.append(r); - break; - case 2: twocol->definite.append(r); - break; - default: ERROR "%d-column range unexpected\n", r->numcol() FATAL; - } -} - -int multicol::print(int cv, int col) -{ - if (col != 0) - ERROR "multicolumn output must start in left column\n" FATAL; - int curv = cv, maxv = cv; // print left column - for ( ; column[0].more(); column[0].advance()) { - curv = column[0].current()->print(curv, 0); - maxv = max(maxv, curv); - } - curv = cv; // print right column - for ( ; column[1].more(); column[1].advance()) { - curv = column[1].current()->print(curv, 1); - maxv = max(maxv, curv); - } - return maxv; -} - -void page::print() -{ - static int tops = 1, bots = 1; - if (!scratch.more()) { - ERROR "## Here's what's left on squeue:\n" WARNING; - squeue.dump(); - ERROR "## Here's what's left on bfqueue:\n" WARNING; - bfqueue.dump(); - ERROR "## Here's what's left on ufqueue:\n" WARNING; - ufqueue.dump(); - ERROR "page %d appears to be empty\n", userpn WARNING; - fflush(stderr), fflush(stdout), exit(0); - // something is very wrong if this happens - } - printf("p%d\n", userpn); // print troff output page number - if (ptlist.more()) { // print page header - ptlist.current()->print(0, 0); - ptlist.advance(); - } else if (tops) { - ERROR "ran out of page titles at %d\n", userpn WARNING; - tops = 0; - } - int curv = 0; - printf("V%d\n", curv = pagetop);// print page contents - for ( ; scratch.more(); scratch.advance()) { - curv = scratch.current()->print(curv, 0); - } - if (btlist.more()) { // print page footer - btlist.current()->print(0, 0); - btlist.advance(); - } else if (bots) { - ERROR "ran out of page bottoms at %d\n", userpn WARNING; - bots = 0; - } - printf("V%d\n", physbot); // finish troff output page -} - -int pagetop = 0; // top printing margin -int pagebot = 0; // bottom printing margin -int physbot = 0; // physical bottom of page - -double minfull = 0.9; // minimum fullness before padding - -int pn = 0; // cardinal page number -int userpn = 0; // page number derived from PT slugs - -static void makepage() -{ - page pg(pagebot - pagetop); - ++pn; - userpn = ptlist.more() ? ptlist.current()->pn() : pn; - pg.fill(); - pg.print(); -} - -static void conv(FILE *fp) -{ - startup(fp); // read slugs, etc. - while (anymore()) - makepage(); - lastrange->print(0, 0); // trailer - checkout(); // check that everything was printed -} - -main(int argc, char **argv) -{ - static FILE *fp = stdin; - progname = argv[0]; - while (argc > 1 && argv[1][0] == '-') { - switch (argv[1][1]) { - case 'd': - dbg = atoi(&argv[1][2]); - if (dbg == 0) - dbg = ~0; - break; - case 'm': - minfull = 0.01*atof(&argv[1][2]); - break; - case 'c': - coltol = 0.01*atof(&argv[1][2]); - break; - case 'w': - wantwarn = 1; - break; - } - argc--; - argv++; - } - if (argc <= 1) - conv(stdin); - else - while (--argc > 0) { - if (strcmp(*++argv, "-") == 0) - fp = stdin; - else if ((fp = fopen(*argv, "r")) == NULL) - ERROR "can't open %s\n", *argv FATAL; - conv(fp); - fclose(fp); - } - exit(0); -} //GO.SYSIN DD page.c echo page.h sed 's/.//' >page.h <<'//GO.SYSIN DD page.h' -extern queue squeue; // the three queues on which ranges reside -extern queue bfqueue; -extern queue ufqueue; - -extern double minfull; - -extern double coltol; - -int anymore(); - -// The following is used in some calls to range::enqueue(int = 0). -#define ANDBLOCK 1 - -class page; - -enum { DRAFT = 0, FINAL = 1 }; - -// The mergestream currpage->stage serves as a staging area for page makeup: -// when primed, it contains a minimal acceptable chunk of input ranges. -// The page must either take or leave everything that's on stage. -class mergestream : public queue { - page *currpage; // current page that's accepting stuff - public: - mergestream(page *cp) { currpage = cp; unblock(); } - void unblock(); - int prime(); // stage next legal chunk - void pend(); // process pending chunk on stage -}; - -// The multicol currpage->twocol is the two-column piece of the page to which -// two-column ranges are currently being added. -// The page sets htavail to indicate how tall it is allowed to become. -// All ranges on definite must be placed when the multicol is printed. -// Each of these definite ranges also resides on one of column[0] and [1], -// which represent the current best guess about how to divide definite -// between the two columns. -class multicol : public range { - page *currpage; // current page that's accepting stuff - stream definite; // definitely on page - stream scratch; // for trial compositions - stream column[2]; // left (0) and right (1) columns - int leftblocked; // OK to add to left column? - int htavail; // max possible ht, set by page::tryout() - int prevhtavail; // max 2-colht last time we added something - friend page; -public: - multicol(page *cp) { currpage = cp; - leftblocked = 0; - htavail = 0; - prevhtavail = -1; - setgoal(NOGOAL); } - // the two-column piece behaves as part - // of the stream of single-column input. - int numcol() { return 1; } - int nonempty() { return definite.more(); } - void choosecol(range *, int);// add first arg to one or other column - void choosecol(stream*, int);// add *all ranges on first arg* - // to one or other column - // NOT the same as a mapcar of the - // preceding function over the ranges - // on the first argument! - void compose(int); // divide into two columns - void tryout(); // decide which column gets stage contents - void stretch(int); // justify both columns to given height - int print(int curv, int col); - int height(); // an upper bound on actual height - int rawht() { return max(column[0].rawht(), column[1].rawht()); } - void reheight(int *cv, int *mv) - { *cv += height(); *mv = max(*mv, *cv); } - void dump(); - int isvbox() { return nonempty(); } // during trimspace() -}; - -// These sentinel ranges are used to separate the ranges on twocol::definite -// into the chunks in which they came from the staging area. -// Thus, they preserve the results of the computation that was done to prime -// page::stage. -class sentrange : public range { - public: - sentrange() { } - int numcol() { return 2; } - int issentinel() { return 1; } -}; - -class page { - int pagesize; // allowed maximum height - int prevncol; // was last item tried 1- or 2-column? - int vsince; // how many vboxes from "current" BS - // (to avoid putting a single line on - // a page with a very large floatable) - stream definite; // definitely on page, in input order - stream scratch; // playground in which to alter page - void cmdproc(); // process any of several commands - void parmproc(); // process any of several parameters - void tryout(); // see whether current stage contents fit - void compose(int); // float and trim current page contents - void makescratch(int); // fill scratch area - void commit(); // accept the items on stage - void welsh(); // reject the items on stage - void adddef(range *r); // add to one of the definite queues - // (definite or twocol->definite) - public: - mergestream *stage; - friend mergestream; - multicol *twocol; - friend multicol; - page(int p) { pagesize = p; - prevncol = 1; - vsince = 0; - stage = new mergestream(this); - twocol = new multicol(this); } - ~page() { definite.freeall(); scratch.freeall(); } - void fill(); - int blank() { return !definite.more() && !twocol->definite.more();} - void print(); -}; - -// functions in page.c -main(int, char **); //GO.SYSIN DD page.h echo queue.c sed 's/.//' >queue.c <<'//GO.SYSIN DD queue.c' -#include "misc.h" -#include "slug.h" -#include "range.h" -#include "page.h" - -queue squeue; -queue bfqueue; -queue ufqueue; - -// We use the stream function current() to access a queue's head. -// Thus, queue member curr should always point to its first range. -void queue::check(char *whence) -{ - if (dbg & 8) { - char *p; - if (this == &squeue) - p = "squeue"; - else if (this == &bfqueue) - p = "bfqueue"; - else if (this == &ufqueue) - p = "ufqueue"; - else - p = "weird queue"; - printf("#checking %s\n", p); - } - if (first != curr) - ERROR "check(%s): first != curr, line %d\n", whence, curr->rp->lineno() FATAL; -} - -// When ranges are told to enqueue themselves, they are being rejected from the -// stage back onto their original queues. -// They reset any parameters that may have been altered by staging or trial -// composition. - -void range::enqueue(int block) -{ - squeue.enqueue(this); - if (block) - squeue.block(); -} - -void ufrange::enqueue(int block) -{ - restore(); // both goal positions - ufqueue.enqueue(this); - if (block) - ufqueue.block(); -} - -void bfrange::enqueue(int block) -{ - restore(); // both goal positions - bfqueue.enqueue(this); - if (block) - bfqueue.block(); -} - -int anymore() -{ - return !(squeue.empty() && ufqueue.empty() && bfqueue.empty()); -} - -void mergestream::unblock() -{ - squeue.unblock(); - bfqueue.unblock(); - ufqueue.unblock(); -} - -// Fill the staging area with a minimal chunk of input ranges. -int mergestream::prime() -{ - if (dbg & 4) - printf("#entering mergestream::prime()\n"); - if (!empty()) - return 1; - int brkok = 1; // is it OK to break after the last - // VBOX that was added to the stage? - int needheight = -1; // minimum acceptable height of the - // chunk being constructed on stage - // If the range at the head of any queue is breaking, - // deal with it first. - if (squeue.more() && squeue.current()->breaking()) - enqueue(squeue.dequeue()); - else if (bfqueue.more() && (bfqueue.current()->breaking() || - (bfqueue.serialno() < squeue.serialno()))) - enqueue(bfqueue.dequeue()); - else if (ufqueue.more() && (ufqueue.current()->breaking() || - (ufqueue.serialno() < squeue.serialno()))) - enqueue(ufqueue.dequeue()); - else while (squeue.more()) { - // Fill the stage with enough ranges to be a valid chunk. - range *r = squeue.dequeue(); - if (r->isvbox()) { // VBOX - if (dbg & 16) - printf("#VBOX: !empty: %d; brkok: %d; vsince: %d\n", - !empty(), brkok, currpage->vsince); - if (!empty() // there's something there - && brkok - // it's OK to break here - && currpage->vsince >= 2 - // enough stream has gone onto this page - && rawht() >= needheight - // current need has been satisfied - ) { - // the stage already contains enough - // ranges, so this one can wait - r->enqueue(); - break; - } else { - if (r->rawht() > 0) { - ++currpage->vsince; - brkok = r->brkafter(); - } - enqueue(r); - } - } else if (r->isnested() || r->issp()) { // US, SP - if (!empty() && rawht() >= needheight) { - // enough already, wait - r->enqueue(); - break; - } - currpage->vsince = 0; - enqueue(r); - if (height() >= needheight) - break; - } else if (r->isneed()) { // NE - if (!empty() && rawht() >= needheight) { - // not currently working on an unsatisfied NEed - r->enqueue(); - break; - } - // deal with overlapping NEeds - needheight = rawht() + max(needheight - rawht(), r->needht()); - enqueue(r); - } else if (r->forceflush() == NO) { - enqueue(r); - } else if (r->forceflush() == YES) { - currpage->vsince = 0; - if (!empty()) { - // ready or not, r must wait - r->enqueue(); - break; - } - enqueue(r); - break; - } else - ERROR "unexpected %s[%s] in prime(), line %d\n", - r->typename(), r->headstr(), r->lineno() FATAL; - } - return more(); // 0 if nothing was staged -} - -void page::cmdproc() -{ - if (stage->next()) - ERROR "more than a single command on bsqueue\n" FATAL; - switch (stage->current()->cmdtype()) { - case FC: // freeze the current 2-column range and start a new one - adddef(stage->dequeue()); - twocol->compose(FINAL); - adddef(twocol); - twocol = new multicol(this); - break; - case BP: // force a page break - adddef(stage->dequeue()); - squeue.block(); - break; - case FL: // flush out all floatables that precede this range: - // no more stream input allowed until they're past - if (stage->serialno() > ufqueue.serialno() || - stage->serialno() > bfqueue.serialno()) { - range *r = stage->dequeue(); - r->enqueue(ANDBLOCK); - } else - adddef(stage->dequeue()); - break; - default: - stage->current()->dump(); - ERROR "unknown command\n" FATAL; - } -} - -void page::parmproc() -{ - if (stage->next()) - ERROR "more than a single parameter on bsqueue\n" FATAL; - switch (stage->current()->parmtype()) { - case NP: // page top margin - if (blank()) - pagetop = stage->current()->parm(); - pagesize = pagebot - pagetop; - break; - case FO: - if (blank()) - pagebot = stage->current()->parm(); - pagesize = pagebot - pagetop; - break; - case PL: - if (blank()) - physbot = stage->current()->parm(); - break; - case MF: - minfull = 0.01*stage->current()->parm(); - break; - case CT: - coltol = 0.01*stage->current()->parm(); - break; - case WARN: - wantwarn = stage->current()->parm(); - break; - case DBG: - dbg = stage->current()->parm(); - break; - default: - stage->current()->dump(); - ERROR "unknown parameter\n" FATAL; - } - adddef(stage->dequeue()); -} - -// Process the contents of the staging area; a relic that used to do more. -void mergestream::pend() -{ - if (dbg & 4) - printf("#entering mergestream::pend()\n"); - if (!more()) - return; - if (current()->iscmd()) - currpage->cmdproc(); - else if (current()->isparm()) - currpage->parmproc(); - else - currpage->tryout(); -} //GO.SYSIN DD queue.c echo range.c sed 's/.//' >range.c <<'//GO.SYSIN DD range.c' -#include -#include "misc.h" -#include "slug.h" -#include "range.h" - -void sprange::reheight(int *cv, int *mv) -{ - if (*cv != *mv) - ERROR "slug %d: an imbedded SP, line %d\n", - first->serialno(), first->lineno() WARNING; - *cv += dv; - *mv = max(*mv, *cv); -} - -void sprange::rerawht(int *cv, int *mv) -{ - *cv += rawht(); - *mv = max(*mv, *cv); -} - -void nestrange::restore() -{ - subrange->restoreall(); -} - -void stream::freeall() // not a destructor; called explicitly -{ - strblk *p, *q; - for (p = first; p; p = q) { - q = p->next; - delete p; - } - first = last = curr = 0; -} - -void stream::dump() -{ - for (stream s = *this; s.more(); s.advance()) - s.current()->dump(); -} - -void stream::rdump() -{ - for (stream s = *this; s.more(); s.advance()) - s.current()->rdump(); -} - -int stream::restoreall() -{ - for (stream s = *this; s.more(); s.advance()) - s.current()->restore(); - return measure(this); -} - -range *stream::append(range *r) -{ - if (last == 0) - curr = first = last = new strblk; - else { - last->next = new strblk; - last = last->next; - if (curr == 0) - curr = last; - } - last->next = 0; - return last->rp = r; -} - -void stream::split() // duplicate current() range -{ - strblk *s2 = new strblk; - range *r2 = curr->rp->clone(); - s2->rp = r2; - s2->next = curr->next; - if (last == curr) - last = s2; - curr->next = s2; - curr->rp->killkids(); // children only in the 2nd one - // r2->crosslink(r1); -} - -int stream::height() -{ - stream s = *this; - for (int h = 0; s.more(); s.advance()) - h += s.current()->height(); - return h; -} - -int stream::rawht() -{ - stream s = *this; - for (int h = 0; s.more(); s.advance()) - h += s.current()->rawht(); - return h; -} - -int measure(stream *sp) // record high-water mark of stream -{ // sets nested stream heights - stream s = *sp; - int curv, maxv; - for (maxv = curv = 0; s.more(); s.advance()) - s.current()->reheight(&curv, &maxv); - return maxv; -} - -int rawmeasure(stream *sp) -{ - stream s = *sp; - int curv, maxv; - for (maxv = curv = 0; s.more(); s.advance()) - s.current()->rerawht(&curv, &maxv); - return maxv; -} - -void nestrange::rdump() -{ - dump(); - if (subrange) - subrange->rdump(); -} - -void nestrange::killkids() -{ - subrange = new stream; -} - -int nestrange::print(int curv, int col) -{ - int ocurv = curv; - first->slugout(col); - for (stream s = *subrange; s.more(); s.advance()) - curv = s.current()->print(curv, col); - return ocurv + height(); -} - -#define macroclone(rangetype) range *rangetype::clone() {\ - rangetype *t = new rangetype;\ - *t = *this;\ - return t; } - -macroclone(usrange); -macroclone(ufrange); -macroclone(bfrange); - -#undef macroclone - -#define macropickgoal(rangetype) void rangetype::pickgoal(int acv, double scale) {\ - if (scale > 1) {\ - goalV = (int)(scale*goalV);\ - goal2 = (int)(scale*goal2);\ - }\ - if (abs(acv - goalV) > abs(acv-goal2))\ - goalV = goal2; } - -macropickgoal(ufrange) -macropickgoal(bfrange) - -#undef macropickgoal - -range *generator::next() -{ - range *r; - if (child) { - if (r = child->next()) - return r; - delete child; - child = 0; - } - if (!s.more()) - return 0; - r = s.current(); - if (r->isnested()) - child = new generator(r->children()); - s.advance(); - return r; -} - -range *queue::enqueue(range *r) -{ - if (dbg & 8) - printf("#entering queue::enqueue()\n"); - check("queue::enqueue"); - if (!last || last->rp->serialno() < r->serialno()) // common case - return append(r); - if (dbg & 8) - printf("#queue::enqueue() pushing back\n"); - newguy = new strblk; - newguy->rp = r; - if (r->serialno() < first->rp->serialno()) { - newguy->next = first; - curr = first = newguy; - return newguy->rp; - } - if (dbg & 8) - printf("#queue::enqueue() searching down queue\n"); - for (curr = first; - next() && next()->serialno() < r->serialno(); - curr = curr->next) - ; - newguy->next = curr->next; - curr->next = newguy; - curr = first; // restore important queue condition - return newguy->rp; -} - -range *queue::dequeue() -{ - if (dbg & 8) - printf("#entering queue::dequeue()\n"); - check("queue::dequeue"); - curr = first->next; - range *retval = first->rp; - delete first; - first = curr; - if (!curr) - last = 0; - return retval; -} - -// ================================================================================ - -// functions that munge the troff output stored in slugs[] - -// ================================================================================ - -static void doprefix(FILE *fp) // copy 1st "x" commands to output -{ - int c; - - while ((c = getc(fp)) != EOF) { - if (c != 'x') { - ungetc(c, fp); - break; - } - putchar(c); - do { - putchar(c = getc(fp)); - } while (c != '\n'); - linenum++; - } -// printf("x font 1 R\n"); // horrible kludge: ensure a font for first f1 command -} - -#define DELTASLUGS 15000 - -static slug *slugs = 0; -static int nslugs = 0; // slugs has nslugs slots -static slug *slugp = 0; // next free slug in slugs - -static void readslugs(FILE *fp) -{ - if ((slugs = (slug *) malloc((nslugs = DELTASLUGS)*sizeof(slug))) == NULL) - ERROR "no room for %d-slug array\n", nslugs FATAL; - slugp = slugs; - for (slugp = slugs; ; slugp++) { - if (slugp >= slugs+nslugs-2) { - int where = slugp - slugs; - if ((slugs = (slug *) realloc((char *) slugs, (nslugs += DELTASLUGS)*sizeof(slug))) == NULL) - ERROR "no room for %d slugs\n", nslugs FATAL; - ERROR "now slug array can hold %d slugs\n", nslugs WARNING; - slugp = slugs + where; - } - *slugp = getslug(fp); - if (slugp->type == EOF) - break; - } - *++slugp = eofslug(); - printf("# %d slugs\n", slugp-slugs); -} - -static slug *findend(slug *sp) -{ - for (slug *p = sp; p->type == sp->type; p++) // skip runs - ; // espec UF UF UF - for ( ; p < slugp; p++) - switch (p->type) { - case US: - case UF: - case BF: - case PT: - case BT: - p = findend(p); - break; - case END: - return p; - } - ERROR "walked past EOF in findend looking for %d (%s), line %d\n", - sp->type, sp->typename(), sp->lineno() FATAL; - return sp; -} - -static int markp(int i, int n, int parm) -{ // should VBOX i of n be marked to brevent breaking after it? - if (i >= n-1) - return 0; - return i <= parm-2 || i >= n-parm; -} - -static void markbreak(slug *p) -{ - // Mark impermissible breakpoints in BS's. - // The parm field of a VBOX is >0 if we shouldn't break after it. - int parm; // how many lines must stay on page - int goahead = 1; // true until we see the next BS - int nowmark = 0; // true when we should be marking - int n = 0; - while (p->type == BS) - parm = p++->parm; // latest BS parm applies - slug *op = p; - while (goahead) { - switch (p->type) { - case VBOX: // count VBOXes so second pass knows - if (p->dv > 0) // knows how far to end of BS - n++; - break; - case US: // mark around EQ/EN, etc. - nowmark = 1; - p = findend(p); - break; - case UF: // but not around floats, PTs, and BTs - case BF: - case PT: - case BT: - p = findend(p); - break; - case SP: // naked SP: probable macro botch - nowmark = 1; // mark around it anyhow - break; - case BS: // beginning of next paragraph - case END: // probable macro botch - case EOF: - goahead = 0; // stop work after marking - nowmark = 1; - default: - break; - } - p++; - if (nowmark) { - int i = 0; // VBOX counter for second pass - while (op < p) { - switch (op->type) { - case VBOX: - if (op->dv > 0) - op->parm = markp(i, n, parm); - i++; - break; - case US: // caused second pass to begin - case SP: - case BS: - case END: - case EOF: - op = p; - break; - case UF: // skip on this pass too - case BF: - case PT: - case BT: - op = findend(op); - break; - default: - break; - } - op++; - } - if (i != n) - ERROR "markbreak failed : i %d n %d\n", - i, n WARNING; - op = p; - nowmark = n = 0; - } - } -} - -static void fixslugs() // adjust bases and dv's, set parameters, etc. -{ - slug *prevV = 0; - for (slug *p = slugs; p < slugp; p++) { - if (p->type == VBOX) { - prevV = p; - continue; - } - if (p->base != 0) { - ERROR "%s slug (type %d) has base = %d, line %d\n", - p->typename(), p->type, p->base, p->lineno() WARNING; - } - if ((p->type == SP) || (p->type == NE)) - continue; - if (p->type == PAGE) - prevV = 0; - if (p->dv != 0) - if (prevV) { - prevV->base = max(prevV->base, p->dv); - p->dv = 0; - } else { - ERROR "s slug (type %d) has dv = %d, line %d\n", - p->typename(), p->type, p->dv, p->lineno() WARNING; - } - } - prevV = 0; - int firstNP = 0, firstFO = 0, firstPL = 0; - for (p = slugs; p < slugp; p++) { - switch (p->type) { - // adjust the dv in a sequence of VBOXes - // by subtracting from each the base of the preceding VBOX - case VBOX: - if (prevV) - p->dv -= prevV->base; - prevV = p; - break; - case SP: - p->dv = max(p->dv, 0); - break; - case PAGE: - p->neutralize(); - prevV = 0; - break; - // record only first "declarations" of Page Top and bottom (FO); - case PARM: - switch (p->parm) { - case NP: - if (firstNP++ == 0) - pagetop = p->parm2; - p->neutralize(); - break; - case FO: - if (firstFO++ == 0) - pagebot = p->parm2; - p->neutralize(); - break; - case PL: - if (firstPL++ == 0) - physbot = p->parm2; - p->neutralize(); - break; - } - break; - // things that begin groups; not US, which should nest properly - case UF: - case BF: - while ((p+1)->type == p->type) { - // join adjacent identical - (p+1)->parm2 = p->parm; // parm is latest - // parm2 is previous - p->neutralize(); // so it's not seen later - p++; - } - break; - // none of the above - case US: - case PT: - case BT: - case BS: - case END: - case TM: - case COORD: - case NE: - case MC: - case CMD: - case EOF: - break; - default: - ERROR "Unknown slug type %d in fixslugs, line %d\n", - p->type, p->lineno() WARNING; - break; - } - } - int pagesize = pagebot - pagetop; - if (pagesize == 0) - ERROR "Page dimensions not declared\n" FATAL; - if (physbot == 0) - physbot = pagebot + pagetop; - printf("# page top %d bot %d size %d physbot %d\n", - pagetop, pagebot, pagesize, physbot); - for (p = slugs; p < slugp; p++) { - switch (p->type) { - // normalize float parameters - case BF: - case UF: - // primary goal - p->parm = max(min(p->parm-pagetop, pagesize), 0); - // secondary goal - p->parm2 = max(min(p->parm2-pagetop, pagesize), 0); - break; - // normalize need parameters - case NE: - p->dv = max( min(p->dv, pagesize), 0); - break; - // mark permissible breaks - case BS: - markbreak(p); - break; - } - if (dbg & 1) - p->dump(); - } -} - -void checkout() -{ - for (slug *p = slugs; p < slugp; p++) - switch (p->type) { - case PT: - case BT: - p = findend(p); - break; - case SP: - case VBOX: - if (p->seen != 1) - ERROR "%s slug %d seen %d times\n", - p->typename(), p->serialno(), - p->seen WARNING; - break; - } -} - -eofrange *lastrange; -stream ptlist, btlist; - -static slug *makeranges(slug *p, stream *s, int level) -{ - stream *t; - - for ( ; p < slugp; p++) - switch (p->type) { - case VBOX: - s->append(new vboxrange(p)); - break; - case SP: - s->append(new sprange(p)); - break; - case BS: - s->append(new bsrange(p)); - break; - case US: - s->append(new usrange(p, t = new stream)); - p = makeranges(p+1, t, level+1); - break; - case BF: - s->append(new bfrange(p, t = new stream)); - p = makeranges(p+1, t, level+1); - break; - case UF: - s->append(new ufrange(p, t = new stream)); - p = makeranges(p+1, t, level+1); - break; - case PT: - ptlist.append(new ptrange(p, t = new stream)); - p = makeranges(p+1, t, level+1); - break; - case BT: - btlist.append(new btrange(p, t = new stream)); - p = makeranges(p+1, t, level+1); - break; - case END: - s->append(new endrange(p)); - return p; - case TM: - s->append(new tmrange(p)); - break; - case COORD: - s->append(new coordrange(p)); - break; - case NE: - if (level) { - ERROR "Nested NE commands are ignored, line %d\n", - p->lineno() WARNING; - p->dv = 0; - } - s->append(new nerange(p)); - break; - case MC: - s->append(new mcrange(p)); - break; - case CMD: - if (level) - ERROR "Nested command ignored, line %d\n", - p->lineno() WARNING; - s->append(new cmdrange(p)); - break; - case PARM: - if (level) - ERROR "Nested parameter ignored, line %d\n", - p->lineno() WARNING; - s->append(new parmrange(p)); - break; - case EOF: - lastrange = new eofrange(p); - return 0; - } - return p; -} - -static queue text; // unexamined input ranges; the real data - -void startup(FILE *fp) -{ - doprefix(fp); // peel off 'x' commands - readslugs(fp); // read everything into slugs[] - fixslugs(); // measure parameters and clean up - makeranges(slugs, &text, 0); // add range superstructure - measure(&text); // heights of nested things - rawmeasure(&text); - while (text.more()) { - range *r = text.dequeue(); - if (dbg & 2) - r->dump(); - r->enqueue(); - } -} //GO.SYSIN DD range.c echo range.h sed 's/.//' >range.h <<'//GO.SYSIN DD range.h' -const NOGOAL = -1; - -class stream; - -enum primeflush { NO, YES, EXPECTED, UNEXPECTED }; // mergestream::prime() - -// Ranges do two things. They interpose a layer between slugs and the rest -// of the program; this is important because of the grossness of the slug -// data structure (made necessary by its origins in troff output). Ranges also -// group together other ranges into meaningful chunks like unbreakable stream -// objects, floatable objects, and page headers and footers. -// Member function height() returns a range's height as of the latest composition. -// Member function rawht() returns the range's original height in the input. -class range { - protected: - slug *first; // earliest slug in range - int accumV; // accumulated V to this point - public: - range() { first = 0; accumV = 0; } - range(slug *p) { first = p; accumV = 0; } - char *headstr() { - return first ? first->headstr() : ""; } - char *typename() { return first->typename(); } - int serialno() { return first->serialno(); } - int lineno() { return first->lineno(); } - virtual void dump() { first->dump(); } - virtual void rdump() { dump(); } - virtual int print(int cv, int col) { - first->slugout(col); return cv; } - virtual int floatable() { return 0; } - virtual int brkafter() { return 1; } - virtual int isnested() { return 0; } - virtual int issp() { return 0; } - virtual int isvbox() { return 0; } - virtual int isneed() { return 0; } - virtual int iscmd() { return 0; } - virtual int cmdtype() { return -1; } - virtual int isparm() { return 0; } - virtual int parmtype() { return -1; } - virtual int parm() { return -1; } - virtual int breakable() { return 0; } - virtual int forceflush() { return UNEXPECTED; } - virtual int pn() { return 0; } - virtual stream *children() { return 0; } // see page::peeloff() - virtual void killkids() { } - virtual void enqueue(int = 0); - virtual int height() { return 0; } - virtual int rawht() { return 0; } - virtual int needht() { return 0; } - virtual void reheight(int *, int *) { } - virtual void rerawht(int *, int *) { } - virtual void setheight(int) { } - virtual void restore() { } // goals of floatables - virtual int goal() { return NOGOAL; } - int accum() { return accumV; } - void setaccum(int n) { accumV = n; } - virtual void setgoal(int) { } - virtual void pickgoal(int, double) { } - virtual int numcol() { return first->numcol(); } - virtual int issentinel() { return 0; } - virtual range *clone() { return 0; } - virtual int breaking() { return 0; } - virtual void setbreaking() { } -}; - -class vboxrange : public range { - int dv; // inherited from slug - int base; // inherited from slug - int brk; // 0 => ok to break after, 1 => no break - public: - vboxrange(slug *p) : range(p) { dv = p->dv; base = p->base; brk = p->parm; } - void dump() { - printf("#### VBOX brk? %d dv %d ht %d\n", brk, dv, dv+base); } - int print(int cv, int col) { - printf("V%d\n", cv += dv); first->slugout(col); return cv+base; } - int brkafter() { return !brk; } - int isvbox() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return NO; } - int height() { return dv + base; } - int rawht() { return first->dv + first->base; } - void reheight(int *cv, int *mv) { - *cv += dv+base; *mv = max(*mv, *cv); } - void rerawht(int *cv, int *mv) { - *cv += rawht(); *mv = max(*mv, *cv); } -}; - -class sprange : public range { - int dv; - public: - sprange(slug *p) : range(p) { dv = first->dv; } - void dump() { - printf("#### SP dv %d (originally %d)\n", dv, first->dv); } - int print(int cv, int col) { - first->slugout(col); return cv + dv; } - int issp() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return YES; } - int height() { return dv; } - int rawht() { return first->dv; } - void reheight(int *, int *); - void rerawht(int *, int *); - void setheight(int n) { dv = n; } -}; - -class tmrange : public range { - public: - tmrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return NO; } - int print(int cv, int col) { first->slugout(col); return cv; } -}; - -class coordrange : public range { - public: - coordrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return NO; } - int print(int cv, int col) - { first->slugout(col); printf(" Y %d\n", cv); return cv; } -}; - -class nerange : public range { - public: - nerange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int isneed() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return YES; } - int needht() { return first->dv; } -}; - -class mcrange : public range { - public: - mcrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return YES; } -}; - -class cmdrange : public range { - public: - cmdrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int iscmd() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return YES; } - int cmdtype() { return first->parm; } -}; - -class parmrange : public range { - public: - parmrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int isparm() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return YES; } - int parmtype() { return first->parm; } - int parm() { return first->parm2; } -}; - -class bsrange : public range { - public: - bsrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return NO; } - int print(int cv, int col) { first->slugout(col); return cv; } -}; - -class endrange : public range { - public: - endrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return UNEXPECTED; } -}; - -class eofrange : public range { - public: - eofrange(slug *p) : range(p) { } - int forceflush() { return UNEXPECTED; } -}; - -extern eofrange *lastrange; // the EOF block (trailer, etc.) goes here - -int measure(stream *); -int rawmeasure(stream *); - -// A nestrange packages together a sequence of ranges, its subrange. -// Other parts of the program reach in and alter the dimensions of -// some of these ranges, so when the height of a range is requested -// it is computed completely afresh. -// (Note: the alternative, of keeping around many copies of ranges -// with different dimensions, was abandoned because of the difficulty -// of ensuring that exactly one copy of each original range would be -// output.) -class nestrange : public range { - protected: - stream *subrange; - int isbreaking; - int rawdv; - public: - nestrange() : range() { subrange = 0; isbreaking = 0; rawdv = -1; } - nestrange(slug *p, stream *s) : range(p) - { subrange = s; isbreaking = 0; rawdv = -1; } - void rdump(); - virtual void restore(); - stream *children() { return subrange; } - void killkids(); - int height() { return measure(subrange); } - int rawht() { if (rawdv < 0 || isbreaking) rawdv = rawmeasure(subrange); - return rawdv; } - void reheight(int *cv, int *mv) { - *mv += measure(subrange); *cv = max(*mv, *cv); } - void rerawht(int *cv, int *mv) { - *mv += rawht(); *cv = max(*mv, *cv); } - int isnested() { return 1; } - int forceflush() { return EXPECTED; } - int print(int cv, int col); - int breaking() { return isbreaking; } - void setbreaking() { isbreaking++; } -}; - -class usrange : public nestrange { - public: - usrange() { } - usrange(slug *p, stream *s) : nestrange(p, s) {} - void dump() { printf("#### US dv %d\n", height()); } - range *clone(); -}; - -class ufrange : public nestrange { - int goalV, goal2; - public: - ufrange() { } - ufrange(slug *p, stream *s) : nestrange(p, s) { - goalV = p->parm; goal2 = p->parm2; } - void dump() { printf("#### UF dv %d goal %d goal2 %d\n", - height(), goalV, goal2); } - int floatable() { return 1; } - void enqueue(int = 0); - range *clone(); - int goal() { return goalV; } - void setgoal(int n) { goalV = goal2 = n; } - void pickgoal(int acv, double scale); - void restore() { goalV = first->parm; goal2 = first->ht; } -}; - -class bfrange : public nestrange { - int goalV, goal2; - public: - bfrange() { } - bfrange(slug *p, stream *s) : nestrange(p, s) { - goalV = p->parm; goal2 = p->parm2; } - void dump() { printf("#### BF dv %d goal %d goal2 %d\n", - height(), goalV, goal2); } - int floatable() { return 1; } - void enqueue(int = 0); - range *clone(); - int goal() { return goalV; } - void setgoal(int n) { goalV = goal2 = n; } - void pickgoal(int acv, double scale); - void restore() { goalV = first->parm; goal2 = first->parm2; } - int breakable() { return 1; } // can be broken -}; - -class ptrange : public nestrange { - int pgno; - public: - int pn() { return pgno; } - ptrange(slug *p, stream *s) : nestrange(p, s) { pgno = p->parm; } - void dump() { printf("#### PT pgno %d dv %d\n", pgno, height()); } -}; - -class btrange : public nestrange { - int pgno; - public: - btrange(slug *p, stream *s) : nestrange(p, s) { pgno = p->parm; } - void dump() { printf("#### BT pgno %d dv %d\n", pgno, height()); } -}; - -// A stream is a sequence of ranges; we use this data structure a lot -// to traverse various sequences that crop up in page-making. -class stream { - protected: -public: - struct strblk { // ranges are linked by these blocks - strblk *next; - range *rp; - }; - strblk *first; - strblk *last; - strblk *curr; - public: - stream() { curr = last = first = 0; } - stream(range *r) { curr = last = first = new strblk; - last->rp = r; last->next = 0; } - void freeall(); // note: not a destructor - void dump(); // top level - void rdump(); // recursive - int restoreall(); - range *current() { return curr->rp; } - range *next() { return curr && curr->next ? curr->next->rp : 0; } - void advance() { curr = curr->next; } - range *append(range *r); - void split(); - int more() { return curr && curr->rp; } - int height(); - int rawht(); -}; - -// A generator iterates through all the ranges of a stream -// (not just the root ranges of nestranges). -class generator { - stream s; - generator *child; - public: - generator() { child = 0; } - generator(stream *sp) { s = *sp; child = 0; } - range *next(); -}; - -extern stream ptlist, btlist; // page titles - -#define INFINITY 1000001 - -// A queue is a distinguished kind of stream. -// It keeps its contents in order by the serial numbers of the ranges. -// A queue can be blocked from dequeuing something to indicate -// that it's not worth considering the queue again on a given page. -class queue : public stream { - strblk *newguy; - protected: - int blocked; - void check(char *); - public: - queue() : blocked(0) { } - range *enqueue(range *r); - range *dequeue(); - void block() { blocked = 1; } - void unblock() { blocked = 0; } - int more() { return !blocked && stream::more(); } - int empty() { return !stream::more(); } - int serialno() { return empty() ? INFINITY : current()->serialno(); } -}; - -// functions in range.c -void checkout(); -void startup(FILE *); //GO.SYSIN DD range.h echo slug.c sed 's/.//' >slug.c <<'//GO.SYSIN DD slug.c' -#include "misc.h" -#include "slug.h" -#include -#include - -static char *bufptr(int); - -void slug::coalesce() -{ - (this+1)->dp = dp; // pretty grimy, but meant to ensure - // that all output goes out. - // maybe it has to skip over PT's; - // some stuff is getting pushed inside PT..END -} - -void slug::neutralize() -{ - switch (type) { - case PAGE: - case UF: - case BF: - case PARM: - type = NEUTRAL; - coalesce(); - break; - default: - ERROR "neutralized %d (%s) with %s\n", - type, typename(), headstr() WARNING; - break; - } -} - -void slug::dump() // print contents of a slug -{ - printf("# %d %-4.4s parm %d dv %d base %d s%d f%d H%d\n#\t\t%s\n", - serialno(), typename(), parm, dv, base, - size, font, hpos, headstr()); -} - -char *slug::headstr() -{ - const HEADLEN = 65; - static char buf[2*HEADLEN]; - int j = 0; - char *s = bufptr(dp); - int n = (this+1)->dp - dp; - if (n >= HEADLEN) - n = HEADLEN; - for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) - switch (s[i]) { - case '\n': - case '\t': - case '\0': - case ' ': - break; - default: - buf[j++] = s[i]; - break; - } - buf[j] = 0; - return buf; -} - -static char *strindex(char s[], char t[]) // index of earliest t[] in s[] -{ - for (int i = 0; s[i] != '\0'; i++) { - int j, k; - for (j = i, k = 0; t[k]!='\0' && s[j] == t[k]; j++, k++) - ; - if (k > 0 && t[k] == '\0') - return s+i; - } - return 0; -} - -void slug::slugout(int col) -{ - static numout = 0; - if (seen++) - ERROR "%s slug #%d seen %d times [%s]\n", - typename(), serialno(), seen, headstr() WARNING; - if (type == TM) { - char *p; - if (p = strindex(bufptr(dp), "x X TM ")) - p += strlen("x X TM "); // skip junk - else - ERROR "strange TM [%s]\n", headstr() FATAL; - fprintf(stderr, "%d\t", userpn); // page # as prefix - for ( ; p < bufptr((this+1)->dp); p++) - putc(*p, stderr); - } else if (type == COORD) { - for (char *p = bufptr(dp); p < bufptr((this+1)->dp) && *p != '\n'; p++) - putc(*p, stdout); - printf(" # P %d X %d", userpn, hpos + col*offset); - return; - } else if (type == VBOX) { - if (numout++ > 0) // BUG??? might miss something - printf("s%d\nf%d\n", size, font); - printf("H%d\n", hpos + col*offset); - } - fwrite(bufptr(dp), sizeof(char), (this+1)->dp - dp, stdout); -} - -char *slug::typename() -{ - static char buf[50]; - char *p = buf; // return value - switch(type) { - case EOF: p = "EOF"; break; - case VBOX: p = "VBOX"; break; - case SP: p = "SP"; break; - case BS: p = "BS"; break; - case US: p = "US"; break; - case BF: p = "BF"; break; - case UF: p = "UF"; break; - case PT: p = "PT"; break; - case BT: p = "BT"; break; - case END: p = "END"; break; - case NEUTRAL: p = "NEUT"; break; - case PAGE: p = "PAGE"; break; - case TM: p = "TM"; break; - case COORD: p = "COORD"; break; - case NE: p = "NE"; break; - case CMD: p = "CMD"; break; - case PARM: p = "PARM"; break; - default: sprintf(buf, "weird type %d", type); - } - return p; -} - -// ================================================================================ - -// troff output-specific functions - -// ================================================================================ - -const DELTABUF = 500000; // grow the input buffer in chunks - -static char *inbuf = 0; // raw text input collects here -static int ninbuf = 0; // byte count for inbuf -static char *inbp = 0; // next free slot in inbuf -int linenum = 0; // input line number - -static inline void addc(int c) { *inbp++ = c; } - -static void adds(char *s) -{ - for (char *p = s; *p; p++) - addc(*p); -} - -static char *getutf(FILE *fp) // get 1 utf-encoded char (might be multiple bytes) -{ - static char buf[100]; - char *p = buf; - - for (*p = 0; (*p++ = getc(fp)) != EOF; ) { - *p = 0; - if (mblen(buf, sizeof buf) > 0) // found a valid character - break; - } - return buf; -} - -static char *bufptr(int n) { return inbuf + n; } // scope of inbuf is too local - -static inline int wherebuf() { return inbp - inbuf; } - -static char *getstr(char *p, char *temp) -{ // copy next non-blank string from p to temp, update p - while (*p == ' ' || *p == '\t' || *p == '\n') - p++; - if (*p == '\0') { - temp[0] = 0; - return(NULL); - } - while (*p != ' ' && *p != '\t' && *p != '\n' && *p != '\0') - *temp++ = *p++; - *temp = '\0'; - return(p); -} - -/*************************************************************************** - bounding box of a circular arc Eric Grosse 24 May 84 - -Conceptually, this routine generates a list consisting of the start, -end, and whichever north, east, south, and west points lie on the arc. -The bounding box is then the range of this list. - list = {start,end} - j = quadrant(start) - k = quadrant(end) - if( j==k && long way 'round ) append north,west,south,east - else - while( j != k ) - append center+radius*[j-th of north,west,south,east unit vectors] - j += 1 (mod 4) - return( bounding box of list ) -The following code implements this, with simple optimizations. -***********************************************************************/ - -static int quadrant(double x, double y) -{ - if ( x>=0.0 && y> 0.0) return(1); - else if( x< 0.0 && y>=0.0) return(2); - else if( x<=0.0 && y< 0.0) return(3); - else if( x> 0.0 && y<=0.0) return(4); - else return 0; /* shut up lint */ -} - -static double xmin, ymin, xmax, ymax; // used by getDy - -static void arc_extreme(double x0, double y0, double x1, double y1, double xc, double yc) - /* start, end, center */ -{ /* assumes center isn't too far out */ - double r; - int j, k; - printf("#start %g,%g, end %g,%g, ctr %g,%g\n", x0,y0, x1,y1, xc,yc); - y0 = -y0; y1 = -y1; yc = -yc; // troff's up is eric's down - x0 -= xc; y0 -= yc; /* move to center */ - x1 -= xc; y1 -= yc; - xmin = (x0x1)?x0:x1; ymax = (y0>y1)?y0:y1; - r = sqrt(x0*x0 + y0*y0); - if (r > 0.0) { - j = quadrant(x0,y0); - k = quadrant(x1,y1); - if (j == k && y1*x0 < x1*y0) { - /* viewed as complex numbers, if Im(z1/z0)<0, arc is big */ - if( xmin > -r) xmin = -r; if( ymin > -r) ymin = -r; - if( xmax < r) xmax = r; if( ymax < r) ymax = r; - } else { - while (j != k) { - switch (j) { - case 1: if( ymax < r) ymax = r; break; /* north */ - case 2: if( xmin > -r) xmin = -r; break; /* west */ - case 3: if( ymin > -r) ymin = -r; break; /* south */ - case 4: if( xmax < r) xmax = r; break; /* east */ - } - j = j%4 + 1; - } - } - } - xmin += xc; ymin += yc; ymin = -ymin; - xmax += xc; ymax += yc; ymax = -ymax; -} - - -static int getDy(char *p, int *dx, int *maxv) - // figure out where we are after a D'...' -{ - int x, y, x1, y1; // for input values - char temp[50]; - p++; // get to command letter - switch (*p++) { - case 'l': // line - sscanf(p, "%d %d", dx, &y); - return *maxv = y; - case 'a': // arc - sscanf(p, "%d %d %d %d", &x, &y, &x1, &y1); - *dx = x1 - x; - arc_extreme(0, 0, x+x1, y+y1, x, y); // sets [xy][max|min] - printf("#arc bounds x %g, %g; y %g, %g\n", - xmin, xmax, ymin, ymax); - *maxv = (int) (ymin+0.5); - return y + y1; - case '~': // spline - for (*dx = *maxv = y = 0; (p=getstr(p, temp)) != NULL; ) { - // above getstr() gets x value - *dx += atoi(temp); - p = getstr(p, temp); // this one gets y value - y += atoi(temp); - *maxv = max(*maxv, y); // ok??? - if (*p == '\n' || *p == 0) // input is a single line; - break; // don't walk off end if realloc - } - return y; - case 'c': // circle, ellipse - sscanf(p, "%d", dx); - *maxv = *dx/2; // high water mark is ht/2 - return 0; - case 'e': - sscanf(p, "%d %d", dx, &y); - *maxv = y/2; // high water mark is ht/2 - return 0; - default: // weird stuff - return 0; - } -} - -static int serialnum = 0; - -slug eofslug() -{ - slug ret; - ret.serialnum = serialnum; - ret.type = EOF; - ret.dp = wherebuf(); - return ret; -} - -slug getslug(FILE *fp) -{ - if (inbuf == NULL) { - if ((inbuf = (char *) malloc(ninbuf = DELTABUF)) == NULL) - ERROR "no room for %d character input buffer\n", ninbuf FATAL; - inbp = inbuf; - } - if (wherebuf() > ninbuf-5000) { - // this is still flaky -- lines can be very long - int where = wherebuf(); // where we were - if ((inbuf = (char *) realloc(inbuf, ninbuf += DELTABUF)) == NULL) - ERROR "no room for %d character input buffer\n", ninbuf FATAL; - ERROR "grew input buffer to %d characters\n", ninbuf WARNING; - inbp = inbuf + where; // same offset in new array - } - static int baseV = 0; // first V command of preceding slug - static int curV = 0, curH = 0; - static int font = 0, size = 0; - static int baseadj = 0; - static int ncol = 1, offset = 0; // multi-column stuff - char str[1000], str2[1000], buf[3000], *p; - int firstV = 0, firstH = 0; - int maxV = curV; - int ocurV = curV, mxv = 0, dx = 0; - int sawD = 0; // > 0 if have seen D... - slug ret; - ret.serialnum = serialnum++; - ret.type = VBOX; // use the same as last by default - ret.dv = curV - baseV; - ret.hpos = curH; - ret.base = ret.parm = ret.parm2 = ret.seen = 0; - ret.font = font; - ret.size = size; - ret.dp = wherebuf(); - ret.ncol = ncol; - ret.offset = offset; - ret.linenum = linenum; // might be low - - for (;;) { - int c, m, n; // for input values - int sign; // hoisted from case 'h' below - switch (c = getc(fp)) { - case EOF: - ret.type = EOF; - ret.dv = 0; - if (baseadj) - printf("# adjusted %d bases\n", baseadj); - printf("# %d characters, %d lines\n", wherebuf(), linenum); - return ret; - case 'V': - fscanf(fp, "%d", &n); - if (firstV++ == 0) { - ret.dv = n - baseV; - baseV = n; - } else { - sprintf(buf, "v%d", n - curV); - adds(buf); - } - curV = n; - maxV = max(maxV, curV); - break; - case 'H': // absolute H motion - fscanf(fp, "%d", &n); - if (firstH++ == 0) { - ret.hpos = n; - } else { - sprintf(buf, "h%d", n - curH); - adds(buf); - } - curH = n; - break; - case 'h': // relative H motion - addc(c); - sign = 1; - if ((c = getc(fp)) == '-') { - addc(c); - sign = -1; - c = getc(fp); - } - for (n = 0; isdigit(c); c = getc(fp)) { - addc(c); - n = 10 * n + c - '0'; - } - curH += n * sign; - ungetc(c, fp); - break; - case 'x': // device control: x ... - addc(c); - fgets(buf, (int) sizeof(buf), fp); - linenum++; - adds(buf); - if (buf[0] == ' ' && buf[1] == 'X') { // x X ... - if (2 != sscanf(buf+2, "%s %d", str, &n)) - n = 0; - if (eq(str, "SP")) { // X SP n - ret.type = SP; // paddable SPace - ret.dv = n; // of height n - } else if (eq(str, "BS")) { - ret.type = BS; // Breakable Stream - ret.parm = n; // >=n VBOXES on a page - } else if (eq(str, "BF")) { - ret.type = BF; // Breakable Float - ret.parm = ret.parm2 = n; - // n = pref center (as UF) - } else if (eq(str, "US")) { - ret.type = US; // Unbreakable Stream - ret.parm = n; - } else if (eq(str, "UF")) { - ret.type = UF; // Unbreakable Float - ret.parm = ret.parm2 = n; - // n = preferred center - // to select several, - // use several UF lines - } else if (eq(str, "PT")) { - ret.type = PT; // Page Title - ret.parm = n; - } else if (eq(str, "BT")) { - ret.type = BT; // Bottom Title - ret.parm = n; - } else if (eq(str, "END")) { - ret.type = END; - ret.parm = n; - } else if (eq(str, "TM")) { - ret.type = TM; // Terminal Message - ret.dv = 0; - } else if (eq(str, "COORD")) { - ret.type = COORD;// page COORDinates - ret.dv = 0; - } else if (eq(str, "NE")) { - ret.type = NE; // NEed to break page - ret.dv = n; // if 0) - ERROR "weird x X %s in mid-VBOX\n", - str WARNING; - return ret; - } - break; - case 'n': // end of line - fscanf(fp, "%d %d", &n, &m); - ret.ht = n; - ret.base = m; - getc(fp); // newline - linenum++; - sprintf(buf, "n%d %d\n", ret.ht, ret.base); - adds(buf); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - // older incarnations of this program used ret.base - // in complicated and unreliable ways; - // example: if ret.ht + ret.base < ret.dv, ret.base = 0 - // this was meant to avoid double-counting the space - // around displayed equations; it didn't work - // Now, we believe ret.base = 0, otherwise we give it - // a value we have computed. - if (ret.base == 0 && sawD == 0) - return ret; // don't fiddle 0-bases - if (ret.base != maxV - baseV) { - ret.base = maxV - baseV; - baseadj++; - } - if (ret.type != VBOX) - ERROR "%s slug (type %d) has base = %d\n", - ret.typename(), ret.type, ret.base WARNING; - return ret; - case 'p': // new page - fscanf(fp, "%d", &n); - ret.type = PAGE; - curV = baseV = ret.dv = 0; - ret.parm = n; // just in case someone needs it - return ret; - case 's': // size change snnn - fscanf(fp, "%d", &size); - sprintf(buf, "s%d\n", size); - adds(buf); - break; - case 'f': // font fnnn - fscanf(fp, "%d", &font); - sprintf(buf, "f%d\n", font); - adds(buf); - break; - case '\n': - linenum++; - /* fall through */ - case ' ': - addc(c); - break; - case '0': case '1': case '2': case '3': case '4': - case '5': case '6': case '7': case '8': case '9': - // two motion digits plus a character - addc(c); - n = c - '0'; - addc(c = getc(fp)); - curH += 10 * n + c - '0'; - adds(getutf(fp)); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - break; - case 'c': // single ascii character - addc(c); - adds(getutf(fp)); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - break; - case 'C': // Cxyz\n - case 'N': // Nnnn\n - addc(c); - while ((c = getc(fp)) != ' ' && c != '\n') - addc(c); - addc(c); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - linenum++; - break; - case 'D': // draw function: D.*\n - sawD++; - p = bufptr(wherebuf()); // where does the D start - addc(c); - while ((c = getc(fp)) != '\n') - addc(c); - addc(c); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - ocurV = curV, mxv = 0, dx = 0; - curV += getDy(p, &dx, &mxv); // figure out how big it is - maxV = max(max(maxV, curV), ocurV+mxv); - curH += dx; - linenum++; - break; - case 'v': // relative vertical vnnn - addc(c); - if (!firstV++) - baseV = curV; - sign = 1; - if ((c = getc(fp)) == '-') { - addc(c); - sign = -1; - c = getc(fp); - } - for (n = 0; isdigit(c); c = getc(fp)) { - addc(c); - n = 10 * n + c - '0'; - } - ungetc(c, fp); - curV += n * sign; - maxV = max(maxV, curV); - addc('\n'); - break; - case 'w': // word space - addc(c); - break; - case '#': // comment - addc(c); - while ((c = getc(fp)) != '\n') - addc(c); - addc('\n'); - linenum++; - break; - default: - ERROR "unknown input character %o %c (%50.50s)\n", - c, c, bufptr(wherebuf()-50) WARNING; - break; - } - } -} //GO.SYSIN DD slug.c echo slug.h sed 's/.//' >slug.h <<'//GO.SYSIN DD slug.h' -enum slugtypes { - NONE, // can't happen - VBOX, // Vertical Box -- printable stuff - SP, // paddable SPace - BS, // start Breakable Stream - US, // start Unbreakable Stream - BF, // start Breakable Float - UF, // start Unbreakable Float - PT, // start Page Top material (header) - BT, // start page BoTtom material (footer) - END, // ENDs of groups - NEUTRAL, // NEUTRALized slugs can do no harm (cf. CIA) - PAGE, // beginning of PAGE in troff input - TM, // Terminal Message to appear during output - COORD, // output page COORDinates - NE, // NEed command - MC, // Multiple-Column command - CMD, // misc CoMmanDs: FC, FL, BP - PARM, // misc PARaMeters: NP, FO - LASTTYPE // can't happen either -}; - -enum cmdtypes { - FC, // Freeze 2-Column material - FL, // FLush all floats before reading more stream - BP // Break Page -}; - -enum parmtypes { - NP, // distance of top margin from page top (New Page) - FO, // distance of bottom margin from page top (FOoter) - PL, // distance of physical page bottom from page top (Page Length) - MF, // minimum fullness required for padding - CT, // tolerance for division into two columns - WARN, // warnings to stderr? - DBG // debugging flag -}; - -class slug { - int serialnum; - int dp; // offset of data for this slug in inbuf - int linenum; // input line number (approx) for this slug - short font; // font in effect at slug beginning - short size; // size in effect at slug beginning - short seen; // 0 until output - short ncol; // number of columns (1 or 2) - short offset; // horizontal offset for 2 columns - public: - short type; // VBOX, PP, etc. - short parm; // parameter - short base; // "depth" of this slug (from n command) - int hpos; // abs horizontal position - int dv; // height of this slug above its input Vpos - union { - int ht; // "height" of this slug (from n command) - int parm2; // second parameter, since only VBOXes have ht - }; - friend slug getslug(FILE *); - friend void checkout(); - friend slug eofslug(); - void coalesce(); // with next slug in array slugs[] - void neutralize(); // render this one a no-op - void dump(); // dump its contents for debugging - char *headstr(); // string value of text - void slugout(int); // add the slug to the output - char *typename(); // printable slug type - int serialno() { return serialnum; } - int numcol() { return ncol; } - int lineno() { return linenum; } -}; - -// functions in slug.c -slug eofslug(); -slug getslug(FILE *); //GO.SYSIN DD slug.h echo tmac.pm sed 's/.//' >tmac.pm <<'//GO.SYSIN DD tmac.pm' -.\" 10/22/92 activate next line before installing -.pi /$objtype/bin/aux/pm -. -. \" IZ - initialization -.de IZ -.fp 1 R \" force a font out into prefix -.nr PS 10 \" point size -.nr VS 12 \" line spacing -.ps \\n(PS -.ie \\n(VS>=41 .vs \\n(VSu -.el .vs \\n(VSp -.nr LL 6i \" line length -.ll \\n(LLu -.nr LT \\n(.l \" title length -.lt \\n(LTu -.if !\\n(HM .nr HM 1i \" top of page -.if !\\n(FM .nr FM 1i \" footer margin -.if !\\n(FO .nr FO \\n(.p-\\n(FM \" bottom of page -. \" to set text ht to N, set FO to N + \n(HM. default is 10i -.pl 32767u \" safety first: big pages for pm -.if !\\n(PO .nr PO \\n(.ou \" page offset -.nr PI 5n \" .PP paragraph indent -.nr QI 5n \" .QS indent -.nr DI 5n \" .DS indent -.nr PD 0.3v \" paragraph vertical separation -.nr TS 0.5v \" space around tables -.nr Kf 0.5v \" space around .KF/.KE -.nr Ks 0.5v \" space around .KS/.KE -. -.nr P1 .4i \" indent for .P1/.P2 -.nr dP 1 \" delta point size for programs in .P1/.P2 -.nr dV 2p \" delta vertical for programs -.nr dT 8 \" delta tab stop for programs -.nr DV .5v \" space before start of program -.nr IP 0 \" ? -.nr IR 0 \" ? -.nr I1 \\n(PIu -.ev 1 -.if !\\n(FL .nr FL \\n(LLu \" footnote length -.ll \\n(FLu -.ps 8 \" text size & leading in footnote -.vs 10p -.ev -.if \\*(CH .ds CH "\(hy \\\\n(PN \(hy -.ds # #\\\\n(.c \\\\n(.F -. -. -.ME \" initialize date strings -.rm ME -. \" accents: \*'e \*`e \*:u \*^e \*~n \*va \*,c -.ds ' \h'\w'e'u*4/10'\z\(aa\h'-\w'e'u*4/10' -.ds ` \h'\w'e'u*4/10'\z\(ga\h'-\w'e'u*4/10' -.ds : \\v'-0.6m'\\h'(1u-(\\\\n(.fu%2u))*0.13m+0.00m'\\z.\\h'0.2m'\\z.\\h'-((1u-(\\\\n(.fu%2u))*0.13m+0.20m)'\\v'0.6m' -.ds ^ \\\\k:\\h'-\\\\n(.fu+1u/2u*2u+\\\\n(.fu-1u*0.13m+0.06m'\\z^\\h'|\\\\n:u' -.ds ~ \\\\k:\\h'-\\\\n(.fu+1u/2u*2u+\\\\n(.fu-1u*0.13m+0.06m'\\z~\\h'|\\\\n:u' -.ds v \\\\k:\\\\h'+\\\\w'e'u/4u'\\\\v'-0.6m'\\\\s6v\\\\s0\\\\v'0.6m'\\\\h'|\\\\n:u' -.ds , \\\\k:\\\\h'\\\\w'c'u*0.4u'\\\\z,\\\\h'|\\\\n:u' -.. -. -. -. \" SP - generate paddable space -.de SP -.br -.nr X 1v -.if \\n(.$ .nr X \\$1v -.ie '\\$2'exactly' \{\ -\v'\\nXu'\ \h'-\w'\ 'u'\c -.sp \\$1\} -.el .X "SP \\nX \\$2" -.. -. \" NE - need space on this page -.de NE -.nr X 1v -.if \\n(.$ .nr X \\$1v -.X "NE \\nX \\$2" -.. -. \" BP, FL, FC - begin page, flush figures, flush column -.de BP -.br -.X CMD BP -.. -.de FL -.br -.X CMD FL -.. -.de FC -.br -.X CMD FC -.. -. \" X - generate an x X ... command in the output -.de X -....ie '\\n(.z'' \\!x X \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 \\$9 -....el \\!.X "\\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 \\$9 -... -.if !'\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=1 \\!.X "\\$1 -.if !'\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=2 \\!.X "\\$1 \\$2 -.if !'\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=3 \\!.X "\\$1 \\$2 \\$3 -.if !'\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$>3 \\!.X "\\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 \\$9 -.if '\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=1 \\!x X \\$1 \\*# -.if '\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=2 \\!x X \\$1 \\$2 \\*# -.if '\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=3 \\!x X \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\*# -.if '\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$=4 \\!x X \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\*# -.if '\\n(.z'' .if \\n(.$>4 \\!x X \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 \\$9 \\*# -.. -. \" DA - force date -.de DA -.if \\n(.$ .ds DY \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 -.ds CF \\*(DY -.. -. \" ND - set new or no date -.de ND -.ds DY \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 -.rm CF -.. -.de ME \" ME - set month strings -.if \\n(mo-0 .ds MO January -.if \\n(mo-1 .ds MO February -.if \\n(mo-2 .ds MO March -.if \\n(mo-3 .ds MO April -.if \\n(mo-4 .ds MO May -.if \\n(mo-5 .ds MO June -.if \\n(mo-6 .ds MO July -.if \\n(mo-7 .ds MO August -.if \\n(mo-8 .ds MO September -.if \\n(mo-9 .ds MO October -.if \\n(mo-10 .ds MO November -.if \\n(mo-11 .ds MO December -.if \\n(dw-0 .ds DW Sunday -.if \\n(dw-1 .ds DW Monday -.if \\n(dw-2 .ds DW Tuesday -.if \\n(dw-3 .ds DW Wednesday -.if \\n(dw-4 .ds DW Thursday -.if \\n(dw-5 .ds DW Friday -.if \\n(dw-6 .ds DW Saturday -.if "\\*(DY"" .ds DY \\*(MO \\n(dy, 19\\n(yr -.. -. \" FP - font position for a family -.de FP -.if '\\$1'palatino'\{\ -. fp 1 PA -. fp 2 PI -. fp 3 PB -. fp 4 PX\} -.if '\\$1'century'\{\ -. ie '\\*(.T'202'\{\ -. fp 1 NR Centsb -. fp 2 NI CentI -. fp 3 NB CentB -. fp 4 NX CentBI\} -. el \{\ -. fp 1 NR -. fp 2 NI -. fp 3 NB -. fp 4 NX\}\} -.if '\\$1'helvetica'\{\ -. fp 1 H -. fp 2 HI -. fp 3 HB -. fp 4 HX\} -.if '\\$1'bembo'\{\ -. ie '\\*(.T'202'\{\ -. fp 1 B1 Bembo -. fp 2 B2 BemboI -. fp 3 B3 BemboB -. fp 4 B4 BemboBI\} -. el \{\ -. fp 1 B1 -. fp 2 B2 -. fp 3 B3 -. fp 4 B4\}\} -.if '\\$1'optima'\{\ -. fp 1 R Optima -. fp 2 I OptimaI -. fp 3 B OptimaB -. fp 4 BI OptimaBI\} -.if '\\$1'souvenir'\{\ -. fp 1 R Souvenir -. fp 2 I SouvenirI -. fp 3 B SouvenirB -. fp 4 BI SouvenirBI\} -.if '\\$1'melior'\{\ -. fp 1 R Melior -. fp 2 I MeliorI -. fp 3 B MeliorB -. fp 4 BI MeliorBI\} -.if '\\$1'times'\{\ -. fp 1 R -. fp 2 I -. fp 3 B -. fp 4 BI\} -.. -. \" TL - title -.de TL -.br -.if !\\n(1T .BG -....hy 0 -.ft 3 -.ps \\n(PS+2p -.vs \\n(VS+2p -.ll \\n(LLu -.ce 100 \" turned off in .RT -.sp .5i -.. -. \" AU - remember author(s) -.de AU -.ft 1 -.ps \\n(PS -.ie \\n(VS>=41 .vs \\n(VSu -.el .vs \\n(VSp -.SP .5 -.. -. \" AI - author's institution -.de AI -.SP .25 -.ft 2 -.. -. \" AB - begin abstract -.de AB -.nr AB 1 \" we're in abstract -.if !\\n(1T .BG -.ft 1 -.ps \\n(PS -.vs \\n(VSp -.ce -.in +\\n(.lu/12u -.ll -\\n(.lu/12u -.SP 1 -.ie \\n(.$ \\$1 -.el ABSTRACT -.SP .75 -.RT -.. -. \" AE - end of abstract -.de AE -.br -.nr AB 0 -.in 0 -.ll \\n(LLu -.ps \\n(PS -.ie \\n(VS>=41 .vs \\n(VSu -.el .vs \\n(VSp -.SP -.. -. \" 2C - 2 columns -.de 2C -.MC 2 -.. -. \" 1C - 1 column -.de 1C -.MC 1 -.. -. \" MC - multiple columns -.de MC -.br -.if \\n(1T .RT -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if !\\n(OL .nr OL \\n(LL -.if \\n(CW=0 .nr CW \\n(LL*7/15 -.if \\n(GW=0 .nr GW \\n(LL-(2*\\n(CW) -.nr x \\n(CW+\\n(GW -.if "\\$1"" .MC 2 -.if \\$1=1 \{\ -. X MC 1 0 -. nr LL \\n(OLu\} -.if \\$1=2 \{\ -. X MC 2 \\nx -. nr LL \\n(CWu\} -.ll \\n(LLu -.if \\$1>2 .tm -mpm can't handle more than two columns -.if \\n(1T .RT -.. -. \" TS - table start, TE - table end; also TC, TQ, TH -.de TS -.br -.if !\\n(1T .RT -.SP \\n(TSu TS -.X "US TS -.if \\$1H .TQ -.nr IX 1 -.. -.de TC -.nr TZ \\n(.lu -.if \\n(.$ .nr TZ \\$1n -.ta \\n(TZuR -.. -.de TD -.LP -.nr TZ 0 -.. -.de TQ -.di TT -.nr IT 1 -.. -.de TH -.if \\n(.d>0.5v \{\ -. nr T. 0 -. T# 0\} -.di -.nr TQ \\n(.i -.nr HT 1 -.in 0 -.mk #a -.mk #b -.mk #c -.mk #d -.mk #e -.mk #f -.TT -.in \\n(TQu -.mk #T -.. -. \" TE - table end -.de TE -.nr IX 0 -.if \\n(IT .if !\\n(HT \{\ -. di -. nr EF \\n(.u -. nf -. TT -. if \\n(EF .fi\} -.nr IT 0 -.nr HT 0 -.rm a+ b+ c+ d+ e+ f+ g+ h+ i+ j+ k+ l+ n+ m+ -.rr 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 40 79 80 81 82 -.rr a| b| c| d| e| f| g| h| i| j| k| l| m| -.rr a- b- c- d- e- f- g- h- i- j- k- l- m- -.X "END US TE -.SP \\n(TSu TE -.bp -.. -. \" EQ - equation, breakout and display -.de EQ -.nr EF \\n(.u -.rm EE -.nr LE 1 \" 1 is center -.ds EL \\$1 -.if "\\$1"L" \{\ -. ds EL \\$2 -. nr LE 0\} -.if "\\$1"C" .ds EL \\$2 -.if "\\$1"R" \{\ -. ds EL \\$2 \" 2 is right adjust -. nr LE 2\} -.if "\\$1"I" \{\ -. nr LE 0 -. if "\\$3"" .ds EE \\h'|10n' -. el .ds EE \\h'\\$3' -. ds EL \\$2\} -.if \\n(YE .nf -.di EZ -.. -. \" EN - end of equation -.de EN -.br -.di -.rm EZ -.nr ZN \\n(dn -.if \\n(ZN .if !\\n(YE .LP -.if !\\n(ZN .if !"\\*(EL"" .nr ZN 1 -.if \\n(ZN \{\ -. SP .5v EQ -. X "US EQ"\} -'pc -.if \\n(BD .nr LE 0 \" don't center if block display or mark/lineup -.if \\n(MK \{\ -. if \\n(LE=1 .ds EE \\h'|10n' -. nr LE 0\} -'lt \\n(.lu -.if !\\n(EP .if \\n(ZN \{\ -. if \\n(LE=1 .tl \(ts\(ts\\*(10\(ts\\*(EL\(ts -. if \\n(LE=2 .tl \(ts\(ts\(ts\\*(10\\*(EL\(ts -. if !\\n(LE \{\ -. if !\\n(BD .tl \(ts\\*(EE\\*(10\(ts\(ts\\*(EL\(ts -. if \\n(BD .if \\n(BD<\\w\(ts\\*(10\(ts .nr BD \\w\(ts\\*(10\(ts -. if \\n(BD \!\\*(10\\t\\*(EL\}\} -.if \\n(EP .if \\n(ZN \{\ -. if \\n(LE=1 .tl \(ts\\*(EL\(ts\\*(10\(ts\(ts -. if \\n(LE=2 .tl \(ts\\*(EL\(ts\(ts\\*(10\(ts -. if !\\n(LE \{\ -. if !\\n(BD .tl \(ts\\*(EL\\*(EE\\*(10\(ts\(ts\(ts -. if \\n(BD .if \\n(BD<\\w\(ts\\*(10\(ts .nr BD \\w\(ts\\*(10\(ts -. if \\n(BD \!\\h'-\\\\n(.iu'\\*(EL\\h'|0'\\*(10\}\} -'lt \\n(LLu -'pc % -.if \\n(YE .if \\n(EF .fi -.if \\n(ZN .X "END US EQ" -.if \\n(ZN .SP .5v EN -.if \\n(ZN .bp -.. -. \" PS - start picture -.de PS \" $1 is height, $2 is width, in inches -.br -.nr X 0.35v -.if \\$1>0 .X "SP \\nX PS" -.ie \\$1>0 .nr $1 \\$1 -.el .nr $1 0 -.X "US PS \\$1 -.in (\\n(.lu-\\$2)/2u -.. -. \" PE - end of picture -.de PE -.in -.X "END US PE -.nr X .65v -.if \\n($1>0 .X "SP \\nX PE" -.bp -.. -.de IS \" for -mpm only -.KS -.. -.de IE -.KE -.bp -.. -. \" NP - new page -.de NP -.ev 2 -.bp -.if \\n(KF=0 \{\ -. nr PX \\n(.s -. nr PF \\n(.f -. nr PV \\n(.v -. lt \\n(LTu -. ps \\n(PS -. vs \\n(PS+2 -. ft 1 -. if \\n(PO .po \\n(POu \" why isn't this reset??? -. PT \\$1 -. bp -. rs -. BT -. bp -. nr %# +1 -. ps \\n(PX -. vs \\n(PVu -. ft \\n(PF \} -.ev -.. -. -.ds %e .tl '\\*(LH'\\*(CH'\\*(RH' -.ds %o .tl '\\*(LH'\\*(CH'\\*(RH' -.ds %E .tl '\\*(LF'\\*(CF'\\*(RF' -.ds %O .tl '\\*(LF'\\*(CF'\\*(RF' -. -. \" PT - page title -.de PT -.nr PN \\n(%# -.X "PT \\n(%# -.sp \\n(HMu/2u -.if \\n(OL .lt \\n(OLu \" why isn't this reset??? -.if \\n(BT>0 .if \\n(%#%2 \\*(%o -.if \\n(BT>0 .if !\\n(%#%2 \\*(%e -.if \\n(BT=0 .tl '\0''' \" put out something or spacing is curdled -.X "END PT \\n(%# -.. -. \" BT - bottom title -.de BT -.X "BT \\n(%# -.sp |\\n(FMu/2u+\\n(FOu-1v -.if \\n(%#%2 \\*(%O -.if !\\n(%#%2 \\*(%E -.nr BT \\n(BT+1 -.X "END BT \\n(%# -.. -. \" KS - non-floating keep -.de KS -.br -.if "\\n(.z"" .NP \" defends poorly against including ht of page stuff in diversion for .B1 -.X "US KS 0 -.nr KS +1 -.SP \\n(Ksu -.. -. \" KF - floating keep -.de KF -.ev 1 -.br -.if \\n(KS>0 .tm KF won't work inside KS, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.if \\n(KF>0 .tm KF won't work inside KF, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.nr KF 1 -.nr 10 0 -. if !'\\$1'' .nr 10 \\$1u -. if '\\$1'bottom' .nr 10 \\n(FOu-1u -. if '\\$1'top' .nr 10 \\n(HM -. if \\n(10 .X "UF \\n(10 KF" -. if !\\n(10 .X "UF \\n(HM KF" -. nr X \\n(FOu-2u -. if \\n(10 .X "UF \\n(10 KF" -. if !\\n(10 .X "UF \\nX KF" -.nr SJ \\n(.u -.ps \\n(PS -.if \\n(VS>40 .vs \\n(VSu -.if \\n(VS<=39 .vs \\n(VSp -.ll \\n(LLu -.lt \\n(LTu -.SP \\n(Kfu -.. -. \" KE - end of KS/KF -.de KE -.bp -.ie \\n(KS>0 \{\ -. SP \\n(Ksu -. X "END US KS -. nr KS -1 \} -.el .ie \\n(KF>0 \{\ -. SP \\n(Kfu -. nr KF 0 -. X "END UF KF" -. if \\n(SJ .fi -. ev \} -.el .tm .KE without preceding .KS or .KF, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.. -. -. \" DS - display. .DS C center; L left-adjust; I indent (default) -.de DS \" $2 = amount of indent -.KS -.nf -.\\$1D \\$2 \\$1 -.ft 1 -.if !\\n(IF \{\ -. ps \\n(PS -. if \\n(VS>40 .vs \\n(VSu -. if \\n(VS<=39 .vs \\n(VSp\} -.. -.de D -.ID \\$1 -.. -.de CD -.XD -.ce 1000 -.. -.de ID -.XD -.if \\n(.$=0 .in +\\n(DIu -.if \\n(.$=1 .if "\\$1"I" .in +\\n(DIu -.if \\n(.$=1 .if !"\\$1"I" .in +\\$1n -.if \\n(.$>1 .in +\\$2n -.....in +0.5i -.....if \\n(.$ .if !"\\$1"I" .if !"\\$1"" .in \\n(DIu -.....if \\n(.$ .if !"\\$1"I" .if !"\\$1"" .in +\\$1n -.. -.de LD -.XD -.. -.de XD -.nf -.nr OI \\n(.i -.SP \\n(DVu -.. -. \" BD - block display: save everything, then center it. -.de BD -.XD -.nr BD 1 -.nf -.in \\n(OIu -.di DD -.. -. \" DE - display end -.de DE -.ce 0 -.if \\n(BD>0 .XF -.nr BD 0 -.in \\n(OIu -.SP \\n(DVu -.KE -.fi -.. -. \" XF - finish a block display to be recentered. -.de XF -.di -.if \\n(dl>\\n(BD .nr BD \\n(dl -.if \\n(BD<\\n(.l .in (\\n(.lu-\\n(BDu)/2u -.nr EI \\n(.l-\\n(.i -.ta \\n(EIuR -.nf -.DD -.in \\n(OIu -.. -. -. -. \" SH - (unnumbered) section heading -.de SH -.RT -.nr X 1v -.nr Y 3v -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "NE \\nY SH" \" should these be reversed, change Y to 4v -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\nX SH -.ft 3 -.. -. \" NH - numbered heading -.de NH -.RT -.nr X 1v -.nr Y 3v -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "NE \\nY NH" \" should these be reversed, change Y to 4v -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\nX NH -.ft 3 -.nr NS \\$1 -.if !\\n(.$ .nr NS 1 -.if !\\n(NS .nr NS 1 -.nr H\\n(NS +1 -.if !\\n(NS-4 .nr H5 0 -.if !\\n(NS-3 .nr H4 0 -.if !\\n(NS-2 .nr H3 0 -.if !\\n(NS-1 .nr H2 0 -.if !\\$1 .if \\n(.$ .nr H1 1 -.ds SN \\n(H1. -.if \\n(NS-1 .as SN \\n(H2. -.if \\n(NS-2 .as SN \\n(H3. -.if \\n(NS-3 .as SN \\n(H4. -.if \\n(NS-4 .as SN \\n(H5. -\\*(SN -.. -. \" RT - reset at beginning of each PP, LP, etc. -.de RT -.if !\\n(AB .if !\\n(1T .BG -.ce 0 -.if !\\n(AB .if !\\n(KF .if !\\n(IF .if !\\n(IX .if !\\n(BE .di -.if \\n(QP \{\ -. ll +\\n(QIu -. in -\\n(QIu -. nr QP -1\} -.if !\\n(AB \{\ -. ll \\n(LLu\} -.if !\\n(IF .if !\\n(AB \{\ -. ps \\n(PS -. ie \\n(VS>=41 .vs \\n(VSu -. el .vs \\n(VSp\} -.ie \\n(IP \{\ -. in \\n(I\\n(IRu -. nr IP -1\} -.el .if !\\n(IR \{\ -. nr I1 \\n(PIu -. nr I2 0 -. nr I3 0 -. nr I4 0 -. nr I5 0\} -.if !\\n(AB .ft 1 -.ta 5n 10n 15n 20n 25n 30n 35n 40n 45n 50n 55n 60n 65n 70n 75n 80n -.fi -.. -. \" BG - begin, execute at first TL, AB, NH, SH, PP, etc. -.de BG \" IZ has been called, so registers have some value -.br -.if \\n(CW>0 .if \\n(LL=0 .nr LL \\n(CW+\\n(CW+\\n(GW -.ll \\n(LLu -.lt \\n(LLu -.po \\n(POu -.nr YE 1 \" ok to cause break in .EQ (earlier ones won't) -.ev 0 -.hy 14 -.ev -.ev 1 -.hy 14 -.ev -.ev 2 -.hy 14 -.ev -.nr 1T 1 -.X "PARM NP \\n(HM -.X "PARM FO \\n(FO -.if !\\n(%# .nr %# 1 -.. -. \" PP - paragraph -.de PP -.RT -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\n(PD PP" -.if \\n(1T .X "BS 2 PP" -.ti +\\n(PIu -.. -. \" LP - left aligned paragraph -.de LP -.RT -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\n(PD LP" -.if \\n(1T .X "BS 2 LP" -.. -. \" IP - indented paragraph -.de IP -.RT -.if !\\n(IP .nr IP +1 -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\n(PD PP" -.if \\n(1T .X "BS 2 IP" -.nr IU \\n(IR+1 -.if \\n(.$>1 .nr I\\n(IU \\$2n+\\n(I\\n(IRu -.if \\n(I\\n(IU=0 .nr I\\n(IU \\n(PIu+\\n(I\\n(IRu -.in \\n(I\\n(IUu -.nr TY \\n(TZ-\\n(.i -.nr JQ \\n(I\\n(IU-\\n(I\\n(IR -.ta \\n(JQu \\n(TYuR -.if \\n(.$ \{\ -.ti \\n(I\\n(IRu -\&\\$1\t\c\} -.. -. \" QP - quoted paragraph (within IP) -.de QP -.RT -.if \\n(1T .NP -.if \\n(1T .X "SP \\n(PD QP" -.if \\n(1T .X "BS 2 QP" -.nr QP 1 -.in +\\n(QIu -.ll -\\n(QIu -.ti \\n(.iu -.. -. \" RS - prepare for double indenting -.de RS -.nr IS \\n(IP -.RT -.nr IP \\n(IS -.nr IU \\n(IR -.nr IR +1 -.if !\\n(I\\n(IR .nr I\\n(IR \\n(I\\n(IU+\\n(PIu -.in \\n(I\\n(IRu -.nr TY \\n(TZ-\\n(.i -.ta \\n(TYuR -.. -. \" RE - retreat to the left -.de RE -.nr IS \\n(IP -.RT -.nr IP \\n(IS -.if \\n(IR>0 .nr IR -1 -.in \\n(I\\n(IRu -.. -. \" B - bold font -.de B -.nr PQ \\n(.f -.ft 3 -.if \\n(.$ \&\\$1\\f\\n(PQ\\$2 -.. -. \" BI - bold italic -.de BI -.nr PQ \\n(.f -.ft 4 -.if \\n(.$ \&\\$1\\f\\n(PQ\\$2 -.. -. \" R - Roman font -.de R -.nr PQ \\n(.f -.ft 1 -.if \\n(.$ \&\\$1\f\\n(PQ\\$2 -.. -. \" I - italic font -.de I -.nr PQ \\n(.f -.ft 2 -.if \\n(.$ \&\\$1\^\f\\n(PQ\\$2 -.. -. \" CW - constant width font from -ms -.de CW -.nr PQ \\n(.f -.if \\n(.$=0 .ft CW -.if \\n(.$>0 \%\&\\$3\f(CW\\$1\\f\\n(PQ\\$2 -.. -.de IT \" ditto to italicize argument -.nr Sf \\n(.f -\%\&\\$3\f2\\$1\f\\n(Sf\&\\$2 -.. -. \" TA - tabs set in ens or chars -.de TA -.ta \\$1n \\$2n \\$3n \\$4n \\$5n \\$6n \\$7n \\$8n \\$9n -.. -. \" SM - make smaller size -.de SM -.ie \\n(.$ \&\\$3\s-2\\$1\s0\\$2 -.el .ps -2 -.. -. \" LG - make larger size -.de LG -.ie \\n(.$ \&\\$3\s+2\\$1\s0\\$2 -.el .ps +2 -.. -. \" NL - return to normal size -.de NL -.ps \\n(PS -.. -. \" FS - begin footnote -.de FS -.if \\n(IF>0 .tm .FS within .FS/.FE, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.if \\n(KF>0 .tm .FS won't work inside .KF, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.if \\n(KS>0 .tm .FS won't work inside .KS, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.nr IF 1 -.ev 1 -.ps \\n(PS-2 -.ie \\n(VS>=41 .vs \\n(VSu-2p -.el .vs \\n(VSp-2p -.ll \\n(LLu -.br -.nr X \\n(FOu -.X "BF \\nX FS -.SP .3v -....FA \" deleted by authority of cvw, 10/17/88 -.. -. \" FE - end footnote -.de FE -.if !\\n(IF .tm .FE without .FS, line \\n(.c, file \\n(.F -.br -.X "END BF FE -.bp -.ev -.nr IF 0 -.. -. \" FA - the line for a footnote -.de FA -\l'1i' -.br -.. -. \" Tm - message to be passed on -.de Tm -.ev 2 -.if \\n(.$=1 .X "TM \\$1 -.if \\n(.$=2 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 -.if \\n(.$=3 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 -.if \\n(.$=4 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 -.if \\n(.$=5 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 -.if \\n(.$=6 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 -.if \\n(.$=7 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 -.if \\n(.$=8 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 -.if \\n(.$=9 .X "TM \\$1 \\$2 \\$3 \\$4 \\$5 \\$6 \\$7 \\$8 \\$9 -.br -.ev -.. -.de MH -AT&T Bell Laboratories -Murray Hill, New Jersey 07974 -.. -.de HO -AT&T Bell Laboratories -Holmdel, New Jersey 07733 -.. -.de WH -AT&T Bell Laboratories -Whippany, New Jersey 07981 -.. -.de IH -AT&T Bell Laboratories -Naperville, Illinois 60540 -.. -. \" UL - underline argument, don't italicize -.de UL -\\$1\l'|0\(ul'\\$2 -.. -. \" UX - print $2 UNIX $1 -.de UX -.ie \\n(UX \\$2\s-1UNIX\s0\\$1 -.el \{\ -\\$2\s-1UNIX\\s0\\$1\(rg -.nr UX 1\} -.. -. \" QS - start quote -.de QS -.br -.LP -.in +\\n(QIu -.ll -\\n(QIu -.. -. \" QE - end quote -.de QE -.br -.ll +\\n(QIu -.in -\\n(QIu -.LP -.. -. \" B1 - begin boxed stuff -.de B1 -.br -.di BB -.nr BC 0 -.if "\\$1"C" .nr BC 1 -.nr BE 1 -.. -. \" B2 - end boxed stuff -.de B2 -.br -.nr BI 1n -.if \\n(.$>0 .nr BI \\$1n -.di -.nr BE 0 -.nr BW \\n(dl -.nr BH \\n(dn -.ne \\n(BHu+\\n(.Vu -.nr BQ \\n(.j -.nf -.ti 0 -.if \\n(BC>0 .in +(\\n(.lu-\\n(BWu)/2u -.in +\\n(BIu -.ls 1 -.BB -.ls -.in -\\n(BIu -.nr BW +2*\\n(BI -.sp -1 -\l'\\n(BWu\(ul'\L'-\\n(BHu'\l'|0\(ul'\h'|0'\L'\\n(BHu' -.if \\n(BC>0 .in -(\\n(.lu-\\n(BWu)/2u -.if \\n(BQ .fi -.br -.. -. \" BX - boxed stuff -.de BX -\(br\|\\$1\|\(br\l'|0\(rn'\l'|0\(ul' -.. -. -. \" macros for programs, etc. -. -.ig - programs are displayed between .P1/.P2 pairs - default is to indent by 1/2 inch, nofill, dP smaller - .P1 x causes an indent of x instead. - - .P3 can be used to specify optional page-break points - inside .P1/.P2 -.. -. -. \" P1 - start of program -.de P1 -.nr $1 \\n(P1 -.if \\n(.$ .nr $1 \\$1n -.br -.X "SP \\n(DV P1" -.X "US P1" -.in \\n($1u -.nf -.nr v \\n(.v -.ps -\\n(dP -.vs -\\n(dVu -.ft CW -.nr t \\n(dT*\\w'x'u -.ta 1u*\\ntu 2u*\\ntu 3u*\\ntu 4u*\\ntu 5u*\\ntu 6u*\\ntu 7u*\\ntu 8u*\\ntu 9u*\\ntu 10u*\\ntu 11u*\\ntu 12u*\\ntu 13u*\\ntu 14u*\\ntu -.. -. \" P2 - end of program -.de P2 -.br -.ps \\n(PS -.vs \\nvu -.ft 1 -.in -.X "END US P1 -.X "SP \\n(DV P2" -.fi -.. -. \" P3 - provides optional unpadded break in P1/P2 -.de P3 -.nr x \\n(DV -.nr DV 0 -.P2 -.P1 \\n($1u -.nr DV \\nx -.. -.de [ -[ -.. -.de ] -] -.. -.IZ -.rm IZ -.so /sys/lib/tmac/tmac.srefs //GO.SYSIN DD tmac.pm --upas-wnnfbneirzpjzzrtpxqsivpjsg-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 09:49:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 09:49:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5304 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 09:49:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5300 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 09:49:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 09:49:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0CE0319A4A; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:49:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ducksworth.com (lucifer.ducksworth.com [216.62.194.65]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BE6F919991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (samd@localhost) by ducksworth.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g1F0mEj78769 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:48:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from sam@ducksworth.com) X-Authentication-Warning: lucifer.ducksworth.com: samd owned process doing -bs From: Sam Ducksworth X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies In-Reply-To: <20020214153822.2134E19A5A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:48:14 -0600 (CST) when/if you get a new list going please let us know. > i'm not sure what happened to it; at first it looked as though pip had > gone on holiday and could mend it when he got back but i think we'll set > up yet another one ourselves. > --sam From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 14:03:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 14:03:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 11448 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 14:03:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 11444 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 14:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 14:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 80EE5199B6; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:03:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from smtp.fywss.com (gate.nevex.com [207.245.2.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36538199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from steve@localhost) by smtp.fywss.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1F514u19980 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:01:04 -0500 From: Steve Kotsopoulos Message-Id: <200202150501.g1F514u19980@smtp.fywss.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] [reminder] pointer to Plan 9 FAQ Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:01:04 -0500 The Plan 9 faq is posted to comp.os.plan9 at the beginning of each month. It is also at news.answers archive sites, look for comp-os/plan9-faq The latest hypertext version of the faq is available at url http://www.fywss.com/plan9/plan9faq.html From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 15:33:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 15:33:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13779 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 15:33:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13775 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 15:33:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 15:33:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7CB6199ED; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:33:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ms0.nttdata.co.jp (ms0.nttdata.co.jp [163.135.193.231]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 33ABC19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 01:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail0.nttdata.co.jp ([163.135.10.20]) by ms0.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-02/08/02) with ESMTP id PAA23261 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:44 +0900 (JST) From: iwanek@nttdata.co.jp Received: from noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail0.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDmx/02020817) with ESMTP id PAA14221 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:27:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp [10.1.49.13]) by noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id PAA15457 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:24:23 +0900 (JST) Received: by noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:22 +0900 Message-ID: <50F591D39557D511B12C0090274DCEBC04012549@noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [9fans] ehter driver note? (WAS: Monitor timings...) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:17 +0900 Hello 9fans, Russ Cox wrote: > The following is a sort of theory of operation for aux/vga and the > kernel vga drivers. > ... This note is great. Are there similar notes on theory and operation of ether drivers? I want to try writing one for crystal 8900a (I/O mode only!) and am looking for any help I can get. -- kazumi From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 18:34:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 18:34:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18622 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 18:34:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18618 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 18:34:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 18:34:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D0A2519A62; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:34:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8CD1019A71 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:33:03 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-infwngpfjaehhdogjjdilsslyv" Message-Id: <20020215093303.8CD1019A71@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:28:05 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-infwngpfjaehhdogjjdilsslyv Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not that there is an 80c165 compiler for Inferno or Plan9, but I have to say that Inferno would be a much better prospect on that hardware. --upas-infwngpfjaehhdogjjdilsslyv Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Thu Feb 14 16:14:05 GMT 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D4CA199B6; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:18:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mail.snellwilcox.com (mail.snellwilcox.com [195.173.15.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8FC42199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:17:28 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Received: from ccMail by snellwilcox.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.52.01.1) id 1463098921; Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:17:41 +0000 Importance: normal Priority: normal Message-Id: <1463098921@snellwilcox.com> X-MIME-Engine: v0.90 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Id: <1463098921-1@snellwilcox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:15:02 +0000 Hi, Are there any 16bit ports of the plan9 C compiler? We do embedded software using the Siemens / Infineon 80C165 CPU (Big brother of the 8051) and would love to use Plan9 as the main development platform. I know the plan9 compiler has been designed to be portable but has anyone tried to port it to a 16 bit CPU? Does anyone have opinions on how difficult it might be? I guess I am just dreaming... but maybe one day, when I have time... -Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this communication are confidential to the normal user of the email address to which it was sent. If you have received this email in error, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If this is the case, please notify the sender and delete this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --upas-infwngpfjaehhdogjjdilsslyv-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 18:42:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 18:42:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18753 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 18:42:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18749 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 18:42:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 18:42:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E434E19991; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:42:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2EB9819A33 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 04:41:52 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020215094152.2EB9819A33@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:41:23 +0100 Now that we talk about compilers, anyone used 8c to generate binaries on Linux? I saw that emu is compiled using `cc' and not 8c. My actual question is: anyone used Plan 9 C extensions on programs that must run on Linux (eg emu)? thanks From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 19:02:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 19:02:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19012 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 19:02:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19007 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 19:02:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 19:02:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0E54919A55; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:02:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7921319A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bf8v-0005KY-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. References: <90918849.0202140746.4df39992@posting.google.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: [troff] Is there a macro package called -mpm ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:55:27 GMT Hi Thomas, > Is there in the Plan9 distribution, a macro package for troff, > called -mpm ? Check Google Groups for this newsgroup. I asked a week or so ago. Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 19:02:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 19:02:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19019 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 19:02:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19015 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 19:02:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 19:02:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2230C19A5F; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:02:16 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3901D19A02 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bf8v-0005Kf-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C6C8C30.42428AE7@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <1463098921@snellwilcox.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:55:48 GMT steve.simon@snellwilcox.com wrote: > anyone tried to port it to a 16 bit CPU? What is a "16-bit CPU"? If you mean that a single address space is limited to 2^16 bytes, then that seems to be too small for Plan9. If you mean that the fast registers are 16 bits wide, then the porting job shouldn't be any worse than for 32-bit wide registers, all other architectural details being equal. (But it will run slower.) Or at least I *hope* the Plan9 coders used long instead of int when they needed more than 16 bits, something that has been standard practice since about 1977. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 20:07:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 20:07:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19732 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 20:07:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19728 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 20:07:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 20:07:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 52D2A19A58; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:07:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mail.snellwilcox.com (mail.snellwilcox.com [195.173.15.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 44CE819A78 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:06:56 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Received: from ccMail by snellwilcox.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.52.01.1) id 1975482479; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:05:26 +0000 Importance: normal Priority: normal Subject: Re[2]: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Message-Id: <1975482479@snellwilcox.com> X-MIME-Engine: v0.90 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Id: <1975482479-1@snellwilcox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:04:34 +0000 Hi, For what its worth, I wanted to use Plan9 as my developement enviroment - porting the compiler rather than the whole OS. We have jokeingly talked about a full plan9 port but I assume that is a non-starter for such a basic CPU - No memory management, not even 8086 style segementation registers, and no memory protection. So we would have to use link on load or get the compiler to produce position indepandant code (not easy on this CPU)... or I suspose we could have a CP/M style TPA :-( Delving into history this is (I think) what was done with MiniUnix (A cut down Version 7) in the early 1980s at the labs (again not sure, its a long time since I read the paper). That ran on an LSI 11/23 and I did notice that the source is available... no that would be silly... I was just wanted to know if there was a fundamental problem with building the Plan9 compiler for 16bit (IE All registers 16 bit, no FPU, 16Mbyte flat address space etc)? -Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this communication are confidential to the normal user of the email address to which it was sent. If you have received this email in error, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If this is the case, please notify the sender and delete this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 21:08:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 21:08:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20604 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 21:08:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20600 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 21:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 21:08:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0140219A33; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:08:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2EC8D19A72 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:07:33 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020215120733.2EC8D19A72@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:14:25 0000 >>will run slower.) Or at least I *hope* the Plan9 coders used >>long instead of int when they needed more than 16 bits, something >>that has been standard practice since about 1977. it started out that way in Plan 9, but my impression is that people don't bother as much any more. a few things can change in 25 years. i thought steve simon was asking about using a port of the C compiler as a cross-compiler. it might well be feasible. the compiler distinguishes short, int and long (and others such as vlong) internally, allowing them different sizes. (at one time, it sometimes blurred int and long when type checking but that was changed some time ago.) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 21:23:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 21:23:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20763 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 21:23:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20759 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 21:23:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 21:23:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DF65A19A65; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:23:15 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D163219A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:22:34 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020215122234.D163219A2A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:30:30 0000 we aim to avoid Plan 9 C extensions (indeed any C extensions at all) when writing code that's intended to work in hosted mode for Inferno (ie, emu). // as comments tends to slip through from time to time because so many compilers accept it, but i sort it out when i notice (at least one of the target platforms won't accept it). the problem with using Plan 9 (or Inferno) compilers to generate code for other architectures is that the object code runtime conventions of the target machines's native compilers are often unattractive. for instance, on the SPARC, the plan 9 suite doesn't use register windows; on the powerpc, i avoided using any of the ABIs because there are several and they all involve some mess. sometimes the Inferno/Plan9 suites can do things the other compilers don't. for instance, again on the powerpc, i found it effective to set R0 to 0, given that the hardware makes it less than general purpose 1/3 of the time, and i saved a few percent in code size as a result. i also avoided having all that `module linkage' crud in procedure calls. as another example, the Plan 9/Inferno suite assumes caller-saves for all volatile registers on all architectures. this makes it hard -- not impossible, but requiring care -- to interact with native compiled code in libraries in some cases. on the 386, though, where there are precious few sensible registers and fewer options for interesting use of the instructions, there probably is enough compatibility between the object code models that it would be feasible to generate code for Linux and others. shared libraries are a potential complication, i suppose (hello, geoff and boyd). i thought someone had got the Plan 9 or Inferno compilers cross-compiling for Linux, though. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 21:26:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 21:26:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20792 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 21:26:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20788 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 21:26:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 21:26:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9C26319A67; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:26:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5645B19A67 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1FCGVpZ026289 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:16:31 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6CFD2C.31C5BE96@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers References: <20020215120733.2EC8D19A72@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:21:00 +0100 Depends on the problem, but from what I know about the assembler output it's the loader that does the instruction generation. The PDP-11 was a 16 bit machine, but it did have 32 bit longs, and software FP support if the machine didn't have an FPU. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 21:54:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 21:54:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21013 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 21:54:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21009 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 21:54:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 21:54:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDDD519A6B; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:54:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EC0D419A02 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id g1FCqpB00475 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:52:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1FCqpP11782 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:52:51 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202151252.g1FCqpP11782@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: FJwNdgo5xh06IMtypiEoDQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:52:51 +0100 (MET) > From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies > > >>With the Inferno mail list down I hope to reach 'the right people' here at > >>9fans. > > i'm not sure what happened to it; at first it looked as though pip had > gone on holiday and could mend it when he got back That is what he said/wrote. > but i think we'll set > up yet another one ourselves. Mail lists need 'Atleast one' semantics :-) bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 22:47:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 22:47:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21515 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 22:47:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21511 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 22:47:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 22:47:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 071C119A73; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:47:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B1F6119A75 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16biXQ-0006Df-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:36:32 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Thomas Baruchel Message-ID: <90918849.0202150448.3a617246@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] What format is the archive of the distribution ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:36:17 GMT Hi, I want to study some files in Plan9. I read the licence and I agree with it. Then I downloaded the 60Mb file, and managed to uncompress it with gzip (after having changed 9gz to gz). Then I have an archive which doesn't seem to be a tar archive. How can I extract files from it? (I mean from a linux station) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 22:51:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 22:51:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21538 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21534 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 22:51:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7F00119A6F; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:51:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EB7A1199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:50:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] What format is the archive of the distribution ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:50:42 -0500 It's like a tar archive, but not quite. http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~wkj/Software/9e has a Unix program to pull the archive apart. The 9fans archives have a perl script somewhere too. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 22:58:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 22:58:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21602 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 22:58:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21598 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 22:58:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 22:58:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3519619A71; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:58:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D7CC019A02 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0f1bbdb9a9730e5e2b01a31b6236de82@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:57:13 -0500 > Or at least I *hope* the Plan9 coders used > long instead of int when they needed more than 16 bits, something > that has been standard practice since about 1977. There's a difference between long and int?!?!?!? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 23:00:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 23:00:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21622 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 23:00:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21618 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 23:00:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 23:00:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4AE5019A80; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:00:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5124019A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:59:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c91a4db401975724efe6280366b6785@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:59:46 -0500 > Now that we talk about compilers, anyone used 8c to generate > binaries on Linux? I saw that emu is compiled using `cc' and not 8c. > My actual question is: anyone used Plan 9 C extensions on programs that > must run on Linux (eg emu)? I got 8c/8l to generate a Linux 'hello world' program and then stopped. vc/vl have been used to generate Irix binaries for a while. I also have a basic C translator, from Plan 9 C to ANSI C. All of these seem not quite reasonable. If you want portable programs, better to write portable code. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 23:03:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 23:03:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21660 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 23:03:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21656 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 23:03:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 23:03:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7AF4C19A72; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:03:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EA1A119A8C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1FDvUpZ027065 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:57:30 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6D14D9.6D0C9451@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers References: <0f1bbdb9a9730e5e2b01a31b6236de82@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:02:01 +0100 Russ Cox wrote: > There's a difference between long and int?!?!?!? Look at what Digital did on the alpha: int = 32 bits long = 64 bits Duh ... int was always intended to be the machine's 'word' size [64 bit]. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 23:12:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 23:12:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21725 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 23:12:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21721 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 23:12:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 23:12:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6B78419A02; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:12:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EBEC419A77 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:11:29 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020215141129.EBEC419A77@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:08:03 +0100 Well, this time I don't want a `portable' program, since some of the Plan 9 C extensions are *really* convenient. It would be great if you could send me your C translator. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 15 23:36:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 15 23:36:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22057 invoked by uid 1020); 15 Feb 2002 23:36:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22053 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 23:36:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 23:36:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 04F0019A5A; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:36:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 47DF719A7D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from po (mail@pm3-1-20.dynamic.idiom.com [216.240.35.20]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA86827; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by po id 16bjQ2-0001wo-00; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:32:58 -0800 Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging Cc: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> From: Richard Uhtenwoldt To: Ronald G Minnich Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:32:58 -0800 Geoff Collyer: > > Given that degree of sharing, the low cost of RAM, and the increase in > > OS complexity, slowness and insecurity in the implementations of > > dynamic libraries that I've seen, I don't see a need for dynamic > > libraries. Ron Minnich >and in the worst case you'll end up where GNU is now, with symbol >versioning, 21 different versions of opendir in glibc, and so on an so on. >Watching a simple 'ls' do hundreds of symbol fixups is really >enlightening. Especially when so many of them are for the same symbol with >slight variations on the name. My simple, formerly working, libc-based >private name spaces are still totally hosed due to this nonsense. Totally hosed because Linux moved from libc5 to glibc? If so, you should have tried to fight the move. Very little chance you could have influenced *all* Linux users to stay with libc5, but you easily could have influenced *me* to do so --you would have had to write only one paragraph-- and probably a few hundred other Linux users, at least for a year or 2 or 3, till the apps start not working with libc5. I didn't know about your work on private namespaces for Linux until about 3-6 months ago. Can't recall exactly when. I think I saw an announce on Slashdot and short afterward you mentioned it here. I subscribed to 9fans to find out about 9-coolness that gets added to Linux and *BSD. Where on the Net could I have found out earlier about your Linux work? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 00:13:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 00:13:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22293 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 00:13:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22289 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 00:13:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 00:13:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F06AA19A70; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:13:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 785AB1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([12.89.180.14]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020215151118.NBUH557.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@default> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:11:18 +0000 Message-ID: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> From: "Thomas West" To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Subject: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:10:56 -0800 Has any one installed Plan9 on the subject Vaio? If so, is the recipie available? -tom From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 01:02:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 01:02:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22529 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 01:02:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22525 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 01:02:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 01:02:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F050B19A81; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:02:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B8A76199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16bkZM-0003NK-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:46:40 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: vic Message-ID: Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:46:30 GMT > Has any one installed Plan9 on the subject Vaio? I did about a year ago. I had no problems with the basic installation. I don't have the machine anymore, but I'll try to help if you have trouble. Vic From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 01:14:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 01:14:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22595 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 01:14:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22591 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 01:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 01:14:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 89E9E19A69; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:14:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B193B19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1FG9IpZ028161 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:09:18 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6D33BE.CA5A3FA8@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:13:50 +0100 Thomas West wrote: > Has any one installed Plan9 on the subject Vaio? I have it on a PCG-N505SN, which I think is the European version. Make sure you have a compatible PCMCIA ethernet card [my kingdom for a 3c589 PCMCIA card]. I also have it on a PCG-Z600LEK. It has a graphics card that Plan 9 doesn't support. Well, it works but you get large rectangular verticle 'holes' in the windows. To defeat this problem during install I just resized the 'install' window so it was really narrow, defeating the problem. This doesn't really worry me because it has an on-board i8255x ethernet card which plan 9 supports and I want to use it as a server [no graphics]. > If so, is the recipie available? Yes: http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/code/plan9/usbflop.html Sony seem to chop their disks in 'half': 1/2 for c: and the rest is unused [presumably for d:] which is fine for a Plan 9 partition. Should you need to re-install off the VAIO CDs they seem to leave the 'unused' part of the disk alone; your Plan 9 is left intact. I've installed it some small n times on both. If it's running Windows 2000 getting dual boot to work is probably not doable. It is with '98. I tried it on the PCG-Z600LEK with the NT dual boot and it took some sort of a fault during installation. I 'think' 2000 is lot closer to NT than it is to '9x but I could be wrong or it could be some 'weird VAIO thing' (tm). I don't care about running 2000 on the PCG-Z600LEK so it always boots Plan 9. You can swap between them with disk/fdisk and some other windows/floopy trickery which I forget. Both of them are sitting beside me so, if you get stuck mail me. http://home.fr.inter.net/boyd/code/plan9/vaios.jpg From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 01:24:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 01:24:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22694 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 01:24:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22690 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 01:24:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 01:24:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 65F8C19A75; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:24:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E4F9019A7D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16252 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 16:19:02 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 16:19:02 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: boyd@strakt.com Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? Message-Id: <20020215161902.6fde4139.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3C6D33BE.CA5A3FA8@strakt.com> References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> <3C6D33BE.CA5A3FA8@strakt.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:19:02 +0000 > This doesn't really worry me because it has an on-board i8255x ethernet > card which plan 9 supports and I want to use it as a server [no graphics]. you send me the vaio I'll send you a populated mini tower :) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 01:30:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 01:30:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22711 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 01:30:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22707 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 01:30:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 01:30:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3FBF719A77; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:30:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E1FAC19A66 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1FGOfpZ028296 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:24:41 +0100 Message-ID: <3C6D3759.D992BD99@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> <3C6D33BE.CA5A3FA8@strakt.com> <20020215161902.6fde4139.matt@proweb.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:29:13 +0100 Matt H wrote: > you send me the vaio I'll send you a populated mini tower :) No chance. Despite the amount of trouble they've given me, my VAIOs are cool. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 01:43:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 01:43:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22789 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22785 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 01:43:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 554C119A7A; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:43:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.36]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3F37A19A74 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id g1FGeWhM011496 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:40:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1FGeWP04686 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:40:32 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202151640.g1FGeWP04686@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: rL8aUiqZw9APkdeirUlYLA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Subject: [9fans] Inferno, filter.m Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:40:32 +0100 (MET) greetings, is it a good idea to follow the filter module interface when writing data processing modules? i ask since neither dd, gettar, lstar, puttar, uuencode, uudecode etc seems to do this. bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 16 06:41:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 16 06:41:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24098 invoked by uid 1020); 16 Feb 2002 06:41:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24094 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 06:41:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 06:41:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4B1219A74; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 3BC7619A57 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1665768 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2002 14:39:16 -0700 Received: from acl.lanl.gov (dpx@128.165.147.1) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 15 Feb 2002 14:39:16 -0700 From: Dean Prichard To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [9fans] First cut at Xircom PCMCIA ethernet driver Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: dpx@acl.lanl.gov List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:39:15 -0700 A very preliminary Xircom PCMCIA Realport ethernet card driver (kernel only) is available from: http://www.acl.lanl.gov/plan9/xircom/ It is far from finished, and only known to work w/ a RE-100 card at this point. -dp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 17 06:57:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 17 06:57:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5418 invoked by uid 1020); 17 Feb 2002 06:57:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5413 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 06:57:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 06:57:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8230319A6A; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:57:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E89DA199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1717069 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2002 14:56:06 -0700 Received: from xed.acl.lanl.gov (128.165.147.191) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 14:56:06 -0700 Received: (qmail 26178 invoked by uid 3499); 16 Feb 2002 14:56:06 -0700 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 16 Feb 2002 14:56:06 -0700 From: Ronald G Minnich X-X-Sender: To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Virtual memory & paging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:56:06 -0700 (MST) On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Richard Uhtenwoldt wrote: > I didn't know about your work on private namespaces for Linux until > about 3-6 months ago. Can't recall exactly when. I think I saw an > announce on Slashdot and short afterward you mentioned it here. Well I tried once or twice to get papers on it published ca. 1996. It finally got accepted at a conference in France in 1999, where I learned just how bad my French has gotten as I tried to follow the talks. But I got to speak in English, so nobody understood me either. Interesting. I wonder what if anything I communicated :-) [[ Although in general French CS researcher's English beats my French]] The attitude in the US (and Usenix and DARPA) community until not long ago was "what a stupid idea private name spaces are, you can hack that into Unix with chroot/jail/whatever" (some reviewer's comments from various Usenix conferences were just AMAZING). So I got to feel in miniature the frustration the plan9 guys must have felt for the last decade+ trying to get these ideas across ... Not long ago it has started to move to "... we're doing that already" (as recently stated by one of the Linux core guys, forwarded to me by somebody). ah well. At least it's happening. (but all the other Unix problems remain intact). I actually started this work in the early 90s because while Unix is the wrong way to build big distributed computing systems, I saw no way out of the Unix box, and it seemed Plan 9 would never get unlocked. Of course, now Grids are all the rage, and they're being built with Unix and NT (s/Unix/Linux/ if you wish). And of course they're horribly insecure. And nobody seems to want to talk about it -- it might interrupt funding, and switching OSes is hard. Just one example: in Globus, all remote users (according to a recent talk I saw) run as the "GLOBUS user" (same integer UID -- think about it, it's hard to do it many other ways on Unix). Imagine the following scenario: I get on to a machine as a GLOBUS user, I fork, parent exits. I wait for some other globus user, then I hijack them via ptrace. Then I do terrible things to them -- including go after their files, etc. Easy, easy, easy on Unix. Chroot has no power over the PID space. So one proposed fix? Use DYNINST to rewrite the binary to dynamically change all my system calls (system calls get forwarded, I guess, as in Condor) so that the hijacker can't guess what you're doing. Sort of encrypting system calls. It is claimed this is a good idea. YUCK. I pointed out to the speaker that if he built his system on Plan 9, this type of thing is not an issue: no global integer UID space, no common GLOBUS user, no global PID space, no hijack potential. Response: "Nobody uses Plan 9, it's been shut down, nobody is working on it". My response, in short: "bullshit". His response, "Yes but nobody is using it, we all use Linux, so it doesn't matter if it is better". Gosh, I remember when people said all this stuff about Unix. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss". ron From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 17 07:49:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 17 07:49:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5897 invoked by uid 1020); 17 Feb 2002 07:49:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5893 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 07:49:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 07:49:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B35D199A3; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:49:14 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 81F9919A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from po (mail@pm3-1-41.dynamic.idiom.com [216.240.35.41]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA87824 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by po id 16cDYY-0002u5-00; Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:43:46 -0800 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Hans Reiser paper on name spaces in operating systems In-Reply-To: References: From: Richard Uhtenwoldt Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:43:46 -0800 John Murdie writes: >For those people who haven't seen this already: a paper by Hans Reiser >(of Reiser File System fame) called ``The Naming System Venture''. It >briefly mentions Plan 9. > >http://www.namesys.com/whitepaper.html From that paper: [Plan 9's] major focus is on integration. Their major trick for increasing integration is unifying the name space. Name spaces integrated into the Plan 9 file system include the status, control, virtual memory, and environment variables of running processes. They have a hierarchical analog to what the relational culture calls constructing views, that the Plan 9 culture calls context binding. Huh? Can anyone define "context binding"? googling on "plan 9" and "context binding" gives no joy, and $ cd ~/mail_lists_archived $ grep -i 'context bind' plan9* $ cat plan9* | wc 750695 3857580 32044532 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 17 23:48:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 17 23:48:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16363 invoked by uid 1020); 17 Feb 2002 23:48:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16359 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 23:48:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 23:48:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0947919A64; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:48:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E111419A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chiark.greenend.org.uk) [127.0.0.1] (theoh) by chiark.greenend.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #2) id 16cSbQ-00071L-00 (Debian); Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:47:44 +0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: theoh@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: [9fans] Hans Reiser paper on name spaces in operating systems In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:43:46 PST." References: From: Theo Honohan Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:47:43 +0000 Richard Uhtenwoldt wrote: > John Murdie writes: > >For those people who haven't seen this already: a paper by Hans Reiser > >(of Reiser File System fame) called ``The Naming System Venture''. It > >briefly mentions Plan 9. > > > >http://www.namesys.com/whitepaper.html > > >From that paper: > [Plan 9's] major focus is on integration. > > Their major trick for increasing integration is unifying the name > space. > > Name spaces integrated into the Plan 9 file system include the status, > control, virtual memory, and environment variables of running > processes. They have a hierarchical analog to what the relational > culture calls constructing views, that the Plan 9 culture calls > context binding. > > Huh? Can anyone define "context binding"? Maybe Reiser is just qualifying the term binding with a parenthetical "context" in order give it an object-- as the database people construct views, Plan 9 people bind (what?). I agree that's its sloppy writing. Googling for "context plan 9 " brings up a paper about naming policies in Sun's Spring system, which appears to define and use "context" in an appropriate sense. So, maybe that's where he got it from. http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/73091.html From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 17 23:54:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 17 23:54:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 16415 invoked by uid 1020); 17 Feb 2002 23:54:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 16411 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2002 23:54:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 17 Feb 2002 23:54:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F3F8A19A59; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:54:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5C40F19999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chiark.greenend.org.uk) [127.0.0.1] (theoh) by chiark.greenend.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #2) id 16cSgY-00077b-00 (Debian); Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:53:02 +0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: theoh@chiark.greenend.org.uk, theoh@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: [9fans] Hans Reiser paper on name spaces in operating systems In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:47:43 GMT." References: From: Theo Honohan Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:53:02 +0000 Theo Honohan wrote: > > Googling for "context plan 9 " brings up a paper about naming policies > in Sun's Spring system, which appears to define and use "context" in > an appropriate sense. So, maybe that's where he got it from. > > http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/73091.html Digging deeper, it looks like this usage comes from an older paper by Saltzer: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/nbib/6014040 Someone much older than me will now explain properly. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 02:50:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 02:50:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17357 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 02:50:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17353 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 02:50:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 02:50:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 577F0199B3; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:50:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from web9106.mail.yahoo.com (web9106.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.128.243]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6CC411999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:49:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20020217174955.94373.qmail@web9106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.220.127.135] by web9106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:49:55 PST From: "A. Baker" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [9fans] "...See Plan _9" (Phrack) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:49:55 -0800 (PST) The Security of Inferno OS http://www.phrack.org/phrack/58/p58-0x0c "Password is "victim" Have a nice day." What-a-World, What-a-World. ===== Boojum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 19:28:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 19:28:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5526 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5521 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 19:28:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C64A419A06; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:28:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4AC92199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16cko5-0006tK-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: vic Message-ID: Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:13:00 GMT boyd@strakt.com (Boyd Roberts) writes: > I have it on a PCG-N505SN, which I think is the European version. > It has a graphics card that Plan 9 doesn't support. Well, it works I don't think the 505F and the PCG-N505SN are so closely related. In any case, I had no video problems. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 19:28:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 19:28:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5533 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5529 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 19:28:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 57AFD19A08; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:28:16 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8FF7C199E8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16cko5-0006tQ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Maarit Maliniemi Message-ID: Organization: Telia Internet References: <20020214153452.6CD4D199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Inferno, Limbo unexpectancies Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:13:21 GMT In article <20020214153452.6CD4D199BB@mail.cse.psu.edu>, 9fans@cse.psu.edu wrote: > >>1 shadowing > > shad.b:12: warning: redeclaration of local n, previously declared as a local on line shad.b:10 > > request warnings and you'll get them (-w option to limbo) > Would it not be better with the opposite behaviour? Ie, if somebody knows about limbo they can turn off warnings they do not need. Whereas the not-so-knowledgable (eg they do not even know that there are warnings available) get them since they presumably need them a lot more... bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 19:28:37 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 19:28:37 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5541 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:37 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5536 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:36 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 19:28:36 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 06EF419A66; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:28:24 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 18B5D199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16ckoc-0006ub-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:34 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C6E0293.A0FF2E49@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <90918849.0202150448.3a617246@posting.google.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: What format is the archive of the distribution ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:13 GMT Thomas Baruchel wrote: > ... Then I have an archive which doesn't > seem to be a tar archive. How can I extract files from it? Some of us have written dearchive utilities. Mine is at my other computer at the moment or I'd send it to you. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 19:28:38 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 19:28:38 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5547 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:38 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5543 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 19:28:37 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 19:28:37 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 986F919A7B; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:28:31 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EB2E8199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 05:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16ckoc-0006uh-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:34 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C6E021B.3F8856E0@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <0f1bbdb9a9730e5e2b01a31b6236de82@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C6D14D9.6D0C9451@strakt.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:14:27 GMT Boyd Roberts wrote: > int was always intended to be the machine's 'word' size [64 bit]. ISAs aren't always so simple these days; orginally a "word" was a common measure for instruction, non-floating datum, address, width of data bus, with of memory access, etc., but now these often don't match each other so one is hard-put to name a definite "word" size. A C implementor might well choose "int" to be 32 bits even on a machine where 64 bits would be more natural, in order to ease importing of code written sloppily on a so-called 32-bit platform. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 20:23:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 20:23:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6081 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 20:23:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6077 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 20:23:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 20:23:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 408A319A89; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:23:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8116019A8A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1IBG6pZ021431 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:16:06 +0100 Message-ID: <3C70E3B6.62734D94@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] vaio PCG 505 F - and Plan9 Perfect together? References: <002901c1b64c$31c13580$0eb4590c@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:21:26 +0100 vic wrote: > > boyd@strakt.com (Boyd Roberts) writes: > > I have it on a PCG-N505SN, which I think is the European version. > > > It has a graphics card that Plan 9 doesn't support. Well, it works > > I don't think the 505F and the PCG-N505SN are so > closely related. In any case, I had no video problems. You misread my post. The video problem is with the PCG-Z600LEK. No problem with the 505. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 20:38:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 20:38:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6188 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 20:38:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6184 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 20:38:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 20:38:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A4AA519A6D; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:38:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 12FE719A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 06:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1IBW1pZ021566 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:32:01 +0100 Message-ID: <3C70E771.C70AD177@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers References: <0f1bbdb9a9730e5e2b01a31b6236de82@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C6D14D9.6D0C9451@strakt.com> <3C6E021B.3F8856E0@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:37:21 +0100 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > A C implementor might well choose "int" to be 32 bits even > on a machine where 64 bits would be more natural, in order > to ease importing of code written sloppily on a so-called > 32-bit platform. True, but that code is broken and should be fixed. That was probably the rational behind the choice Digital made with the Alpha, which I think was completely wrong. I don't know who made the decision [CRL?], but I argued against it at the time. Porting ULTRIX to it would have been pretty sporty, but they chose OSF. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 22:05:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 22:05:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6824 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 22:05:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6820 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 22:05:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 22:05:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 51DA319A3E; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:05:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DFFFB19A7F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 08:04:38 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:14:47 0000 >>A C implementor might well choose "int" to be 32 bits even >>on a machine where 64 bits would be more natural, in order >>to ease importing of code written sloppily on a so-called >>32-bit platform. or perhaps just to avoid wasting space on even more zero bits, especially if there is little or no cost associated with the use of 32 bits instead of 64. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 23:09:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 23:09:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7332 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 23:09:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7328 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 23:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 23:09:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2348D1999B; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:09:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 57B9219A2C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16coA9-00033c-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:49:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ccsdhd@bath.ac.uk (Dennis Davis) Message-ID: <1014038394.18195.0.nnrp-14.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Subject: [9fans] Re: Inferno, filter.m Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:48:37 GMT bengt wrote: > is it a good idea to follow the filter module interface when writing data > processing modules? > > i ask since neither dd, gettar, lstar, puttar, uuencode, uudecode etc seems to > do this. the filter interface was an just an idea as to how one might structure the API to a filter-like program without using pipes (which are somewhat awkward to use when you're writing and reading from the same program at the same time). for compression, for example, it provides a reasonably lightweight way to have several independent compressing streams without loading and initialising a separate module for each. the thread-based nature of the interface means that the filter can be written in a natural (non-callback) style, and the channel-based interface means that a few data copies are avoided. in the end, i don't really know whether it was worth it, but if you are considering writing a data-filter interface that you'd like to be easily usable from Limbo code, you might consider it. if not, it's probably easier just to use a conventional stdin->stdout interface using Bufio. cheers, rog. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 18 23:47:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 18 23:47:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7739 invoked by uid 1020); 18 Feb 2002 23:47:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7735 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 23:47:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 23:47:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C4F919A27; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0B0CC19995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16cp1D-0005Wn-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:43:51 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. Subject: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:43:20 GMT Hi, Jon Snader made me aware that Rob had posted -mpm-related material. I read comp.os.plan9 and didn't see the post. Google Groups has it without the attachments. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=0ce9a17866461d0a3e0a61628c4149a9%40plan9.bell-labs.com&output=gplain Newsgroups: comp.os.plan9 From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) Subject: Re: [9fans] [troff] Is there a macro package called -mpm ? Approved: plan9mod@bath.ac.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-wnnfbneirzpjzzrtpxqsivpjsg" Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: ccsis@bath.ac.uk (Icarus Sparry) Organization: Plan 9 mailing list Message-ID: <0ce9a17866461d0a3e0a61628c4149a9@plan9.bell-labs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:58:52 GMT Lines: 3850 Enjoy. -- My guess is the mailing list to Usenet gateway stripped off the attachments but didn't adjust the optional Lines header. My ISP's news server correctly dropped this post when it received it because it appears corrupt. Since no better version ever arrives from another peer I never see the post on comp.os.plan9. Can whoever runs the gateway confirm this supposition is correct and do something about it, e.g. delete any Lines headers since they're optional. [Moderator's notes: (1) The mailing list to Usenet gateway doesn't strip off attachments. It's only concerned with adjusting headers to suit. (2) The mailing list to Usenet gateway runs through the News system here. That is neutral as far as the Lines: header is concerned. It doesn't generate one for articles that pass through it. If one is present in the incoming article, it is left untouched. (3) The mailing list to Usenet gateway is also neutral as far as the Lines: header is concerned. If one is present in the incoming message it is passed through. If one isn't present, the s/w doesn't add one. In practice none of the above should cause problems. I don't know of of any email client or MTA that adds the Lines header to mail messages. Certainly Outlook Express can differentiate between posting a News article and a mail message. It adds a Lines: header to the former but not the latter. So News articles that are injected from the mailing list generally leave here *without* a Lines: header. Certainly that is the case for the article in question. I believe this header was added further downstream of here. There's not much I can do about that. As noted in private email I have trouble reading this article with the trn Newsreader + metamail-2.7. I get the error message: metamail: Incomplete multipart message -- unexpected EOF I suspect that this is more likely to be the source of confusion. However the contents should be easily extracted manually.] Knowing it existed on the mailing list I went to the archives. Unfortunately, http://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans re-directs you to a HTTPS connection as has previously been mentioned. And https://lists.cse.psu.edu/archives/9fans doesn't work with this Netscape which complains `Netscape and this server cannot communicate securely because they have no common encryption algorithm(s)'. It's pointless having an archive for a public list hidden behind HTTPS, and in addition demanding recent encryption algorithms. Anyone got a public archive of the list? [Moderator's note: I suspect that the web server at lists.cse.psu.edu has been configured to not accept export-grade cryptography. And this may be the source of the problem. Versions of Netscape since 4.73 have been available with full-strength cryptography from the download page at: http://www.netscape.com/download/ Earlier versions of Netscape can be brough up to full-strength cryptography by "fortifying" them. See: http://www.fortify.net/ for details.] Cheers, Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 00:06:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 00:06:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7957 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 00:06:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7953 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 00:06:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 00:06:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2EAE919A86; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:06:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E5F9F1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16coqa-0004pH-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:32:52 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ccsdhd@bath.ac.uk (Dennis Davis) Message-ID: Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK References: <1014038394.18195.0.nnrp-14.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk> Subject: [9fans] Re: Inferno, filter.m Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:55 GMT In the referenced article, ccsdhd@bath.ac.uk (Dennis Davis) writes: >bengt wrote: >> is it a good idea to follow the filter module interface when writing data >> processing modules? >> >> i ask since neither dd, gettar, lstar, puttar, uuencode, uudecode etc seems to >> do this. > >the filter interface was an just an idea as to how one might structure >the API to a filter-like program without using pipes (which are >somewhat awkward to use when you're writing and reading from the same >program at the same time). > >for compression, for example, it provides a reasonably lightweight way >to have several independent compressing streams without loading and >initialising a separate module for each. > >the thread-based nature of the interface means that the filter can be >written in a natural (non-callback) style, and the channel-based >interface means that a few data copies are avoided. > >in the end, i don't really know whether it was worth it, but if you >are considering writing a data-filter interface that you'd like to be >easily usable from Limbo code, you might consider it. if not, it's >probably easier just to use a conventional stdin->stdout interface >using Bufio. > > cheers, > rog. Sigh, a moderator mistake. The above article was authored by: From: rog@vitanuova.com and *not* me...perhaps it was a mistake to get out of bed today... -- Dennis Davis, BUCS, University of Bath, Bath, BA2 7AY, UK D.H.Davis@bath.ac.uk From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 02:45:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 02:45:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9095 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 02:45:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9091 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 02:45:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 02:45:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E907619A83; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:45:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from marvin.nildram.co.uk (marvin.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.71]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D613419A6E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 22532 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2002 17:44:00 -0000 Received: from hamnavoe.gotadsl.co.uk (HELO hamnavoe) (213.208.117.150) by marvin.nildram.co.uk with SMTP; 18 Feb 2002 17:44:00 -0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers From: Richard Miller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020218174402.D613419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:43:59 0000 The original question from steve.simon@snellwilcox.com was > Are there any 16bit ports of the plan9 C compiler? I've ported (more accurately: retargeted) it for a 16-bit CPU which is embedded in a smartcard. Because registers are 16 bits and I could live within a 64KB address space, I chose to make sizeof(int) = 2, sizeof(int*) = 2, sizeof(long) = 4. This avoided the need to keep pointers in pairs of registers, but required some extra rewriting because the existing compilers have some implicit assumptions that sizeof(register) = sizeof(long) = sizeof(int*). There is also one place in the "machine independent" part of the compiler (/sys/src/cmd/cc/dcl.c:/^contig) which assumes sizeof(long) = sizeof(int*). Nothing else in cc needed to be touched. -- Richard From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 03:15:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 03:15:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9278 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 03:15:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9274 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 03:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 03:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9B29519995; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:15:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from galapagos.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 67F2E19A76 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4286 invoked by uid 991); 18 Feb 2002 18:14:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20020218181429.4284.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers In-Reply-To: Message from Richard Miller of "Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:43:59." <20020218174402.D613419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> From: Scott Schwartz Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:14:29 -0500 Richard Miller writes: | There is also one place in the "machine independent" part of the compiler | (/sys/src/cmd/cc/dcl.c:/^contig) which assumes sizeof(long) = sizeof(int*). | Nothing else in cc needed to be touched. Send in a patch! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 10:53:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 10:53:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13724 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 10:53:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13720 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 10:53:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 10:53:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 563B619988; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:53:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from galapagos.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 58A5619A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6772 invoked by uid 991); 19 Feb 2002 01:52:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20020219015218.6770.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. In-Reply-To: Message from Ralph Corderoy of "Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:43:20 GMT." From: Scott Schwartz Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:52:18 -0500 | Jon Snader made me aware that Rob had posted -mpm-related material. I | read comp.os.plan9 and didn't see the post. Google Groups has it | without the attachments. The funny thing about the message rob sent was that the attachment was labeled as being of type message/rfc822, when in fact it was not. This confused mh, and I wouldn't be surprised if other things were confused too. | It's pointless having an archive for a public list hidden behind HTTPS, | and in addition demanding recent encryption algorithms. Anyone got a | public archive of the list? I agree, and I've complained to the people who run lists.cse.psu.edu, but to no avail. Because of that, I mirror the archives at http://bio.cse.psu.edu/~schwartz/9fans/ There are three sets of files there. The ones of the form 9fans.nnnnnn.* are from the days when Majordomo ran the list. The ones of the form nnnn-Month.* are since Mailman (spit!) took over. To work around a bug in Mailman, whereby all the "From:" lines are totally wrong, I also mirror a copy of 9fans.mbox.bz2, which is the raw submissions to the list. | I suspect that the web server at lists.cse.psu.edu has been | configured to not accept export-grade cryptography. It's configured to be retarded, that's all. See, like all broken software, Mailman relies on sending cleartext passwords across the net. So you have to hide the cleartext in cryptographic tunnels. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 11:01:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 11:01:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13911 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 11:01:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13907 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 11:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 11:01:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9912019A7F; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:01:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D28E519A60 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:00:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:00:39 -0500 > The funny thing about the message rob sent was that the attachment > was labeled as being of type message/rfc822, when in fact it was not. This is acme/mail's fault. it's got a terrible heuristic for deciding the type of the attachment. it's hardly a heuristic at all. suggestions welcome (in private mail to rob@plan9.bell-labs.com). what is a file type in our world anyway? -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 11:19:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 11:19:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 14313 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 11:19:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14308 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 11:19:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 11:19:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2AFE619A60; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:19:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9FC5119981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:18:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <586391ceef5d71798d091d5fe84190cf@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "rob pike" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] fix to types in acme mail Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 21:18:50 -0500 This fix is untested but it's adapted from the fix I made to our local version and, if it's wrong, is very close to right. In essence, I misunderstood the rfc822 conditions (an easy mistake) and the fix is to let marshal do all the work by just not setting the -t flag. -rob % diff reply.c $d/acme/mail/src/reply.c 202c202 < int included[200]; --- > int rfc822[200]; 331c331 < included[natt++] = (h == INCLUDE); --- > rfc822[natt++] = (h == INCLUDE); 362c362,364 < if(included[i]) --- > if(rfc822[i]){ > e->argv[j++] = estrdup("-t"); > e->argv[j++] = estrdup("message/rfc822"); 364c366 < else --- > }else % From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 21:06:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 21:06:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27359 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 21:06:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27355 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A9F9519A00; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:06:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1AC8919981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1JBxhpZ001874 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:59:44 +0100 Message-ID: <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:05:21 +0100 rob pike wrote: > This is acme/mail's fault. it's got a terrible heuristic for deciding the > type of the attachment. The real problem is the MINEfield (sic) that is the 4 MIME RFCs. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 21:28:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 21:28:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27594 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 21:28:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27590 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:28:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:28:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A202819A0C; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:28:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.76.136]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2849619A78 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:27:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 43846 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 12:27:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 12:27:34 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. Message-Id: <20020219122734.5d4d5d9f.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.1 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:27:34 +0000 On Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:05:21 +0100 "Boyd Roberts" wrote: > rob pike wrote: > > This is acme/mail's fault. it's got a terrible heuristic for deciding > > the type of the attachment. > > The real problem is the MINEfield (sic) that is the 4 MIME RFCs. > watch out for multipart/related too, it's for HTML formatted mail but many MUA's don't seem to know about it (as I've recently find out after making my html email generator produce it. OE5 was fine with it, OE5.5+ ignores it) M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 21:33:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 21:33:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27642 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 21:33:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27638 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:33:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:33:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A6DFE19A87; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:33:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C1BFE199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA00355 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:26:18 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. Message-ID: <20020219142616.B326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com>; from Boyd Roberts on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 01:05:21PM +0100 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:26:17 +0200 On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 01:05:21PM +0100, Boyd Roberts wrote: > > The real problem is the MINEfield (sic) that is the 4 MIME RFCs. I don't think MIME is all _that_ bad. What's better? ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 21:36:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 21:36:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27678 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 21:36:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27674 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 21:36:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 21:36:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BC81419A61; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:36:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4D2E919A61 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1JCTkpZ002144 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:29:46 +0100 Message-ID: <3C72468C.982E7230@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> <20020219142616.B326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:35:24 +0100 Lucio De Re wrote: > I don't think MIME is all _that_ bad. What's better? Read the 4th RFC. It's not a question of what's better. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 22:00:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 22:00:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27880 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 22:00:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27876 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 22:00:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 22:00:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 813D01998C; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:00:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 171501998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA00393 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:59:15 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. Message-ID: <20020219145913.D326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> <20020219142616.B326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <3C72468C.982E7230@strakt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <3C72468C.982E7230@strakt.com>; from Boyd Roberts on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 01:35:24PM +0100 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:59:14 +0200 On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 01:35:24PM +0100, Boyd Roberts wrote: > > Lucio De Re wrote: > > I don't think MIME is all _that_ bad. What's better? > > Read the 4th RFC. It's not a question of what's better. Oh, OK, by the third revision they could have lost all sense of purpose and/or direction. Still, where does one go from (t)here? ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 19 22:03:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 19 22:03:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27933 invoked by uid 1020); 19 Feb 2002 22:03:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27929 invoked from network); 19 Feb 2002 22:03:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 19 Feb 2002 22:03:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6E72819A84; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:03:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1926B19A6E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1JCvJpZ002336 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:57:19 +0100 Message-ID: <3C724D01.4A955E74@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. References: <25d6bf57d316372196b0f186f321c1d3@plan9.bell-labs.com> <3C723F81.11FFA801@strakt.com> <20020219142616.B326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <3C72468C.982E7230@strakt.com> <20020219145913.D326@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:02:57 +0100 Lucio De Re wrote: > Oh, OK, by the third revision they could have lost all sense of > purpose and/or direction. No, they are not revisions. You have to read _all four_. By starting with the 4th it makes the exercise a lot quicker and less painful. > Still, where does one go from (t)here? Good question. Throw it away and start again? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 20 02:21:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 20 02:21:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30506 invoked by uid 1020); 20 Feb 2002 02:21:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30502 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 02:21:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 02:21:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 730E8199E4; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:21:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from web9102.mail.yahoo.com (web9102.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.128.239]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0411219980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:20:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20020219172043.11641.qmail@web9102.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.220.127.135] by web9102.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:20:43 PST From: "A. Baker" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [9fans] Mailing List Archive mirror Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) ---------------8<--------------- I agree, and I've complained to the people who run lists.cse.psu.edu, (<---as have I) but to no avail. Because of that, I mirror the archives at http://bio.cse.psu.edu/~schwartz/9fans/ ---------------8<--------------- Thank you Scott Schwartz ; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dTgL-0002pd-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:47 GMT forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes: > or perhaps just to avoid wasting space on even more zero bits, > especially if there is little or no cost associated with the use of 32 > bits instead of 64. Since memory is so expensive these days... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 20 20:00:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 20 20:00:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15956 invoked by uid 1020); 20 Feb 2002 20:00:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15952 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 20:00:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 20:00:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E2C3519A28; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:00:13 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C5CB119A3F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:59:51 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-nmlntdgkverjazcofagjiwglxy" Message-Id: <20020220105951.C5CB119A3F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:55:32 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-nmlntdgkverjazcofagjiwglxy Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes, but perhaps i'd like to put the extra memory to more constructive use if i've got a lot of it. perhaps i'd even like to buy less of it anyway so i can put the money to better use elsewhere. --upas-nmlntdgkverjazcofagjiwglxy Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu> Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net by mailstore for forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk id 1014200833:10:05525:12; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:27:13 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id ab1124776; 20 Feb 2002 10:27 GMT Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B863119980; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:21:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D825F199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 05:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dTgL-0002pd-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:09:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:47 GMT forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes: > or perhaps just to avoid wasting space on even more zero bits, > especially if there is little or no cost associated with the use of 32 > bits instead of 64. Since memory is so expensive these days... --upas-nmlntdgkverjazcofagjiwglxy-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 20 23:17:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 20 23:17:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17936 invoked by uid 1020); 20 Feb 2002 23:17:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17932 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 23:17:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 23:17:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8D81819A2A; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:17:13 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4C1C2199B9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dXHT-0004SL-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:59:35 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Dave Atkin Message-ID: Organization: ntl Business News Service Subject: [9fans] New Inferno Mailing List Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:59:25 GMT Following the demise of previous Inferno lists, we have created a new one, hosted at Topica. To join, send a blank email to inferno-subscribe@topica.com Or go to the website: http://www.topica.com/lists/inferno/ for all the details. To go straight to the message archive, use http://www.topica.com/lists/inferno/read To post a message to the list, email it to inferno@topica.com Dave Atkin Vita Nuova From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 20 23:40:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 20 23:40:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18145 invoked by uid 1020); 20 Feb 2002 23:40:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18141 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2002 23:40:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 20 Feb 2002 23:40:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2AB05199B9; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:40:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6B40619A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:39:19 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020220143919.6B40619A05@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Experience with 1Gb machines Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:38:37 0000 Anyone out there running Plan9 on a >=1Gb RAM PC? I'm experiencing some stability problems with my ASUS A7V-266E with an XP1800+ (1.54GHz to you and me) and 1Gb of DDR RAM. Plan 9 gets all sorts of "corupt tail" type error messages and doesn't last more than an hour, or a day if I lower the clock speed to 1.15GHz. Run Inferno, launch acme, and it resets! If I leave either of the 512Mb memory sticks out it is solid as a rock. Both in, wham! I tried setting maxmem but to no effect. I just wondered if 1Gb is too much memory... I'm looking for ammunition to get the shop to change the memory. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 03:00:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 03:00:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19547 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 03:00:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19543 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 03:00:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 03:00:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4DAC19A0B; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:00:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from galapagos.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0BC1919A2C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18366 invoked by uid 991); 20 Feb 2002 17:59:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20020220175907.18364.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers In-Reply-To: Message from "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" of "Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:47 GMT." <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net> From: Scott Schwartz Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:59:07 -0500 > Since memory is so expensive these days... Since time is related to space... Since x86 maxes out at 32bits... Since linux plants shared libraries in the middle of your address space... Yes, not wasting memory is very important, still. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 03:11:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 03:11:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19620 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 03:11:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19616 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 03:11:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 03:11:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0CEBF19A2C; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:11:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 4878819A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:10:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5f2ec0dbd997dd00f7725b1e326f0dd7@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Experience with 1Gb machines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:08:52 -0500 On Wed Feb 20 09:40:26 EST 2002, nigel@9fs.org wrote: > Anyone out there running Plan9 on a >=1Gb RAM PC? We have a number of machines with >= 1GB which run without problem. However, we don't have any DDR systems. --jim From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 04:48:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 04:48:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20139 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 04:48:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20135 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 04:48:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 04:48:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C8D8C19A0D; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:48:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 1DD1D19981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:46:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61445c28f1dff312015904f4870cd6aa@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] P4 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:44:24 -0500 In exchange for helping a colleague get his self-assembled 1.7GHz P4 PC working I got to boot Plan 9 on it. The entry in the X86type table is { 0xF, 1, 16, "P4", }, /* P4 */ and the family default { 0xF, -1, 16, "P4", }, /* P4 */ The motherboard was an Intel D850MV with 512MB (2 RIMMs). From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 07:44:07 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 07:44:07 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20998 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 07:44:07 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20994 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 07:44:06 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 07:44:06 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 086B519A26; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:43:58 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 96A1E199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:42:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Re: P4 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:42:06 -0500 Also, if you use any PC processor faster than 2.147483647GHz you need to change the type of the Mach cpuhz structure element in dat.h to vlong cpuhz; From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 12:56:06 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 12:56:06 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27687 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 12:56:06 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27683 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 12:56:05 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 12:56:05 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 355E519A5A; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:55:54 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 37D4719981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:54:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020221035441.37D4719981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] acme win Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:50:15 +0900 Hello, A process that writes nothing makes a problem in acme win. For example, execute: echo -n in acme win. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 15:06:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 15:06:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30843 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 15:06:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30839 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 15:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 15:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 32ABD199E8; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:06:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 02E4619A3F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:05:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] acme win From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-addvqdyqtrlijsjrwjwhiakcdy" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:03:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-addvqdyqtrlijsjrwjwhiakcdy Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try this: change /acme/bin/source/win/main.c:315 from if(nb <= 0) to if(nb < 0) -rob --upas-addvqdyqtrlijsjrwjwhiakcdy Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Wed Feb 20 22:56:07 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Wed Feb 20 22:56:05 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4B107199B6; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:55:53 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 37D4719981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:54:41 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <20020221035441.37D4719981@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] acme win Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:50:15 +0900 Hello, A process that writes nothing makes a problem in acme win. For example, execute: echo -n in acme win. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp --upas-addvqdyqtrlijsjrwjwhiakcdy-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 18:55:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 18:55:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3894 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 18:55:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3888 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 18:55:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 18:55:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6046219A29; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:55:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 43C30199ED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dpid-0004vc-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:51 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C7450BC.30EB206@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:47 GMT "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > Since memory is so expensive these days... In many embedded applications, every bit counts, more for power consumption reasons than for manufacturing cost. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 18:56:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 18:56:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3917 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 18:56:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3913 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 18:56:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 18:56:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id ED57019A55; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:56:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7DEA319A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dpjQ-0004x6-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:41:40 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: watercloud Message-ID: <35ef49e9.0202201813.44689baf@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Run Plan9 Problem On Virtual PC __please help me Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:41:06 GMT I have install plan9 os on my Virtual PC successfully,but I could not run it! When I run it ,the messages is following: PBS...Plan 9 from Bell Labs ELCR: 0A00 apm ax=f000 cx=f000 dx=40 di=1200 ebx=a519 esi=3e9 dev A0 port 1F0 config 045A capabilities 0F00 mwdma 0407 dev A0 port 170 config 85A0 capabilities 0300 mwdma 0000 using sdC0!9fat!plan9.ini found 9PCDISK . attr 0x0 start 0x40 len 1441737 .650381........................................................................ ......+489424............................................................+87400 1227205 entry: 0x80100020 cpu0: 677MHz GenuineIntel PentiumIII/Xeon (cpuid: AX 0x0673 DX 0x380A17B) dev A0 port 1F0 config 045A capabilities 0F00 mwdma 0407 dma 00000004 rwm 16 dev A0 port 170 config 85A0 capabilities 0300 mwdma 0000 dma 00000000 rwm 0 4674 free pages 18696K bytes 98696K swap _ Then the cursor stop on the screen and skeep flashing,but the system no any act. what can I do ? (I'm not good at English. Sorry.) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 19:09:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 19:09:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 4187 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 19:09:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4183 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 19:09:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 19:09:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7F0E519A3F; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:09:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9DAB2199ED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1LA2KpZ024309 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:02:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3C74C71F.745058E8@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers References: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net> <3C7450BC.30EB206@null.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:08:31 +0100 "Douglas A. Gwyn" wrote: > In many embedded applications, every bit counts, > more for power consumption reasons than for manufacturing cost. Very true, but in the case of the Alpha: that thing was always going to have a heap of memory -- but you already knew that :) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 22:19:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 22:19:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6006 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 22:19:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6002 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 22:19:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 22:19:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8994619A05; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:19:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C998919991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:18:10 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] acme win References: Message-Id: <20020221131810.C998919991@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:13:56 +0900 Hello, >Try this: >change /acme/bin/source/win/main.c:315 >from > if(nb <= 0) >to > if(nb < 0) > >-rob Thank you rob, but that does not fix my acme. My system may be old. term% ls -l /wrap/plan9 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Jun 4 2001 /wrap/plan9/961264382 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Jun 4 2001 /wrap/plan9/964893367 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Oct 15 2000 /wrap/plan9/971556349 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Dec 29 2000 /wrap/plan9/971810713 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Dec 29 2000 /wrap/plan9/973992256 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Feb 9 10:36 /wrap/plan9/980936570 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Jun 4 2001 /wrap/plan9/985745432 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Jun 4 2001 /wrap/plan9/989254626 d-rwxrwxr-x M 3 sys sys 0 Jun 4 2001 /wrap/plan9/991073352 Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 21 23:21:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 21 23:21:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6503 invoked by uid 1020); 21 Feb 2002 23:21:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6499 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2002 23:21:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 21 Feb 2002 23:21:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B4C05199ED; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:21:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 3AD4119A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:20:17 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] acme win References: <20020221131810.C998919991@mail.cse.psu.edu> Message-Id: <20020221142017.3AD4119A04@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:15:41 +0900 Hello, >Thank you rob, but that does not fix my acme. >My system may be old. Sorry I forgot to restart acme! Kenji Arisawa E-mail: ariasawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 03:40:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 03:40:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7820 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 03:40:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7816 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 03:40:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 03:40:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 57C5419A2F; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:40:04 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9131D19A65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16dxcK-00015U-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:06:52 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87eljeen44.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020218130438.DFFFB19A7F@mail.cse.psu.edu>, <87zo24ln69.fsf@becket.becket.net>, <3C7450BC.30EB206@null.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:06:39 GMT "Douglas A. Gwyn" writes: > "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > > Since memory is so expensive these days... > > In many embedded applications, every bit counts, > more for power consumption reasons than for manufacturing cost. Right. But the discussion was about what to do on a 64 bit machine. I think those processors are not in significant use in embedded applications. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 07:47:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 07:47:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8853 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 07:47:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8849 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 07:47:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 07:47:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D5037199BC; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:47:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cumin.apnic.net (cumin.apnic.net [202.12.29.59]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1330119981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from apnic.net (hadrian.apnic.net [202.12.29.249]) by cumin.apnic.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1LMhBqE004907 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:43:11 +1000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers In-Reply-To: Message from "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" of "Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:06:39 GMT." <87eljeen44.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <29394.1014331615@apnic.net> From: George Michaelson X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.1 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:46:55 +1000 > "Douglas A. Gwyn" writes: > > > "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > > > Since memory is so expensive these days... > > > > In many embedded applications, every bit counts, > > more for power consumption reasons than for manufacturing cost. > > Right. But the discussion was about what to do on a 64 bit machine. > I think those processors are not in significant use in embedded > applications. MIPS sell more CPU's for embedded purposes than core desktop/scientific computing don't they? I thought it was the #1 chip for lasers and other devices. What kind of CPU's do you think will power GPRS video-enabled cellphones? Is this only the domain of special purpose codecs? And games consoles are 64bit, and do not have anything like large enough memory. I know 4mbyte is not as constrained as the 16-bit controller in a washingmachine, but for once, the rendered video framebuf's probably are a legit use of what memory there is there. Code can't take it all. No? -George From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 09:40:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 09:40:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10294 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 09:40:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10290 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 09:40:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 09:40:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 43896199BF; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:40:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F2DC819A33 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:39:06 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] acme win From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020222003906.F2DC819A33@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:39:15 +0900 >>Thank you rob, but that does not fix my acme. >>My system may be old. >Sorry I forgot to restart acme! Actually, I have no problem using the acme before the rob's fix. Kenji From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 10:03:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 10:03:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10835 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 10:03:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10831 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 10:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 10:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2318E199E3; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:03:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from hozer.san.rr.com (204-210-5-98.san.rr.com [204.210.5.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6DAFB19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from san.rr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by hozer.san.rr.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1M14WT01855 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:04:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C759920.4DEDED44@san.rr.com> From: Eric Dorman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Experience with 1Gb machines References: <5f2ec0dbd997dd00f7725b1e326f0dd7@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:04:32 -0800 jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > On Wed Feb 20 09:40:26 EST 2002, nigel@9fs.org wrote: > > Anyone out there running Plan9 on a >=1Gb RAM PC? > > We have a number of machines with >= 1GB which run without problem. > However, we don't have any DDR systems. > > --jim My cpuserver is an Abit VP6 with 2xPIII-1.0GHz and 1.0Gb SDRAM, seems to work fine. A blurb recently from the list indicated 1.75Gb was max? Has this been fixed, perhaps under the as-yet-unreleased-due-to-9P2000 work? Eric Dorman From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 11:02:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 11:02:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 12324 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 11:02:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12320 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 11:02:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 11:02:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 43B1619A04; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:02:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 6464F19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:01:58 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3ciscupdate v148.2.1) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp To: 9fans@nx.aichi-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: [9fans] acme win References: <088c2bf9cc35bb0ca6fe24ff1764e9f6@plan9.bell-labs.com> Message-Id: <20020222020158.6464F19A31@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:56:10 +0900 Hello Rob, >is it fixed, then? why did you have to restart acme. >i thought only win was broken. Ok, the problem is fixed. I don't know why restart is needed. I believed at that time restart is not needed. But I can't remember what I really did. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 14:53:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 14:53:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17930 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 14:53:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17926 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 14:53:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 14:53:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7F71419A5F; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:53:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp (ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp [131.112.14.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 774FF19A67 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 31857 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 05:49:38 -0000 Received: from mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp (HELO o.cc.titech.ac.jp) (131.112.3.2) by ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 05:49:38 -0000 Received: from p9t by mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp (8.11.3/1.1.10.5/20Feb97-0455PM) id g1M5oJk246675; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:50:20 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200202220550.g1M5oJk246675@mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: YAMANASHI Takeshi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] rio /dev/mouse Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:35:22 0900 I'm using Microsoft Intelli wheel mouse now. Without rio, I rolled up and down the wheel while doing `cat /dev/mouse', and its button state of the output was `8' or `16'. But under rio, `cat /dev/mouse' produced with the button state `0' only. Could you tell me what is happening and why? I want to change rio to interpret this 8 or 16 button state as either arrow-up or arrow-down keyboard event. -- Sincerely, YAMANASHI Takeshi From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 19:04:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 19:04:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24061 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24056 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 19:04:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9F79219A17; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:04:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C0D1E19A69 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16eCTl-00048L-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. References: , <20020219015218.6770.qmail@g.bio.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Usenet Gateway and Mailing List Archive Woes. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:58:22 GMT Hi Scott, > > Jon Snader made me aware that Rob had posted -mpm-related material. > > I read comp.os.plan9 and didn't see the post. Google Groups has it > > without the attachments. > > The funny thing about the message rob sent was that the attachment > was labeled as being of type message/rfc822, when in fact it was not. > This confused mh, and I wouldn't be surprised if other things were > confused too. Yes, you're right. That could well be what made some things drop the attachment and others, perhaps, the whole post. nmh here has problems, and I heard from Dennis Davis that trn+metamail doesn't like it either. It did reach Bakul Shah successfully on Usenet so it looks like the mail-to-Usenet gateway isn't the problem. His Path header was Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!unlnews.unl.edu!headwall .stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!logbridge.uoregon .edu!server3.netnews.ja.net!south.jnrs.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net !bath.ac.uk!ccsis I'll ask my ISP if they got any sign of it and if so, why they didn't accept. > Because of that, I mirror the archives at > http://bio.cse.psu.edu/~schwartz/9fans/ Fantastic! I've made a note for future use. I see it's also in the FAQ along with the https site. (I already got the post privately from Jon Snader.) > > I suspect that the web server at lists.cse.psu.edu has been > > configured to not accept export-grade cryptography. > > It's configured to be retarded, that's all. > > See, like all broken software, Mailman relies on sending cleartext > passwords across the net. So you have to hide the cleartext in > cryptographic tunnels. But you don't *have* to because, in Mailman's case, it makes perfectly clear the password isn't meant to give any security, just stop a very casual attack. To re-inforce this it emails you your password, in plain text, once a month. So they've no good reason to hide it for web accesses AFAICS. Thanks for the reply, Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 19:04:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 19:04:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24069 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24065 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 19:04:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4A73519A33; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:04:17 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 98706199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16eCTl-00048R-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: phaet0n Message-ID: <758512ed.0202211501.71734443@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:58:36 GMT Hello all, I have a few questions. 1) I am wondering if anyone is developing, or planning, a GUI toolkit for Plan 9? If not, does anyone have any good design ideas, especially centring around Plan 9 features? Are there any good papers on this topic? 2) Someone mentioned freetype a while back. Is there any progress on this front? It would be really nice if a freetype server could publish Plan 9 font bitmaps from TrueType or Type 1 font files. Not that there's anything wrong with lucida... 3) I asked a while back, and got no reply, about Plan 9's object format for a project. I presume read the source applied. That project fizzled, so I'm generating C instead. I've been playing with GCC 3.0 on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. Is anyone working on getting GNU binutils and so GCC to generate Plan 9 objects? That would be a great first step in getting all that `other code' working. Awaiting discussion... -- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 19:04:31 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 19:04:31 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24082 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24074 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 19:04:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 19:04:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 76F5519A57; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:04:25 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 43BEA19A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:03:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16eCTm-00048X-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:59:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <873czuif8p.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <29394.1014331615@apnic.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:58:49 GMT ggm@apnic.net (George Michaelson) writes: > MIPS sell more CPU's for embedded purposes than core desktop/scientific > computing don't they? I thought it was the #1 chip for lasers and other > devices. Last I heard a MIPS was a 32 bit processor. > And games consoles are 64bit, and do not have anything like large enough > memory. I know 4mbyte is not as constrained as the 16-bit controller in a > washingmachine, but for once, the rendered video framebuf's probably are a > legit use of what memory there is there. Code can't take it all. I don't know how much memory they have at all. Do you? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 19:59:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 19:59:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 24563 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 19:59:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 24559 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 19:59:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 19:59:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 597D519A78; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:59:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cumin.apnic.net (cumin.apnic.net [202.12.29.59]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 635EC199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from apnic.net (hadrian.apnic.net [202.12.29.249]) by cumin.apnic.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1MAsYqE024007 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:54:35 +1000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:58:49 +0000." <873czuif8p.fsf@becket.becket.net> Message-ID: <26486.1014375499@apnic.net> From: George Michaelson X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.1 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:58:19 +1000 > I don't know how much memory they have at all. Do you? > Nintendo64 System Description 64-bit MIPS RISC 93.75MHz CPU (customized R4300i series) 36Mbit (4.5MB) Rambus DRAM [4MB + parity]. 500MHz system event speed [250MHz clock, data transfers on both clock edges]. 32bit RGBA frame buffer. From: http://www.futuretech.vuurwerk.nl/sysdesc.html cheers -George -- George Michaelson | APNIC Email: ggm@apnic.net | PO Box 2131 Milton QLD 4064 Phone: +61 7 3858 3100 | Australia Fax: +61 7 3858 3199 | http://www.apnic.net From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 20:39:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 20:39:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25013 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 20:39:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25008 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 20:39:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 20:39:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 69BF0199B6; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:39:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3919F19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01309 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from copernicus.cs.utwente.nl by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.10.2+Sun/csrelay-Sol1.4/RB) id g1MBbP322304; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:26 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by copernicus.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g1MBbN310397 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:23 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202221137.g1MBbN310397@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: copernicus.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:22 +0100 Hello, due to a change of IP number I had to reconfigure my fs. I rebooted, went to config mode, and tried to change just ip and ipgw: ip new.ip.address ipgw new.ip.g.w end I think at a certain moment I made a typing mistake, but typed 'end' anyway. Anyway, all I got after config were panics. Then I did something silly: I also (re)configured 'service' and 'config', and the other ip address, basically everything except the filsys's: service super config w0 ... end and now I have the funny feeling that, by re-specifying config, I have blown away my filsys configuration, confirmed by panic(no filsys) (and a -- too late -- look at the source). Does this mean that my only chance to gain acces to the fs is to indeed re-specify the complete configuration, including the filsys lines, exactely as I specified them before? (the unfortunate thing is that I played a bit with filsys lines to get it working, and even though I have a pretty good idea, I am not completely sure what filsys strings I finally specified) Or is the configuration stored elsewhere, or can it somehow be 'reverse engineered'? Feeling, ahem, not so bright this morning, Axel. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 21:26:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 21:26:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25614 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 21:26:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25610 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 21:26:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 21:26:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A938519A1C; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:26:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A643419A6E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:25:36 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] fs config problem: accidental config deletion? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020222122536.A643419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:58 0000 >>Does this mean that my only chance to gain acces to the fs >>is to indeed re-specify the complete configuration, >>including the filsys lines, exactely as I specified them before? the configuration is stored where you tell it, and as you say, giving a new "config" command causes it to reset the configuration. you need to give it the filsys lines as before. DO NOT INCLUDE a ream request, or you WILL be sad. just the filsys From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 21:30:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 21:30:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25649 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 21:30:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25645 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 21:30:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 21:30:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 72CC019A54; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:30:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 00AE819A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:29:02 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020222122902.00AE819A31@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:42:12 0000 >>1) I am wondering if anyone is developing, >> or planning, a GUI toolkit for Plan 9? >> If not, does anyone have any good design >> ideas, especially centring around Plan 9 >> features? Are there any good papers on >> this topic? man 2 control From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 21:30:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 21:30:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25656 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 21:30:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25652 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 21:30:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 21:30:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 541DE19A63; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:30:17 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5DAC419A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:29:37 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020222122937.5DAC419A62@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:42:28 0000 >> instead. I've been playing with GCC 3.0 >> on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. Is >> anyone working on getting GNU binutils >> and so GCC to generate Plan 9 objects? >> That would be a great first step in >> getting all that `other code' working. if the `other code' is at all portable, it's usually not too hard. as it is, i mean. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 21:58:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 21:58:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 25999 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 21:58:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 25995 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 21:58:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 21:58:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F052F19A31; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:58:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4637A19A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03790 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from copernicus.cs.utwente.nl by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.10.2+Sun/csrelay-Sol1.4/RB) id g1MCt5307638; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:06 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by copernicus.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g1MCt3q02259 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:03 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202221255.g1MCt3q02259@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: copernicus.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] fs config problem: accidental config deletion? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:58." <20020222122536.A643419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020222122536.A643419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:03 +0100 Thanks for the reply. Will I get feedback that tells me when I guessed the filsys string wrong? The reason I'm asking is that I know how I configured the fake-worm part of main, but am a bit unsure about the cache part, that is on another disk that also contains an empty other file-system. Because I made a dump before switching the system off, I don't care much about the cache nor about the (empty) other file system, assuming that I can use 'recover main' to reinitialise the cache. Yes, avoiding not-intented ream is very important. (Seemingly) a long time ago with disk/kfs I included a not-intended ream request, when I copied/pasted a disk/kfs command from the man page without paying attention to _all_ the options (i.e. overseeing the 'r' option); luckily that was a very fresh file system, just after installation -- it just took me time to reinstall. Axel. > the configuration is stored where you tell it, > and as you say, giving a new "config" command > causes it to reset the configuration. > you need to give it the filsys lines as before. > DO NOT INCLUDE a ream request, or you WILL be sad. > just the filsys From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 22:33:29 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 22:33:29 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26487 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 22:33:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26483 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 22:33:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 22:33:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5FFBF19A6F; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:33:22 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2DA7819A69 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:31:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:29:48 -0500 > I've been playing with GCC 3.0 > on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. What did you find impressive? -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Fri Feb 22 22:45:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Fri Feb 22 22:45:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26624 invoked by uid 1020); 22 Feb 2002 22:45:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26620 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 22:45:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 22:45:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 69D9B19A73; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:45:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from sigint.cs.purdue.edu (sigint.cs.purdue.edu [128.10.2.82]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 123AE19A70 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by sigint.cs.purdue.edu (Postfix, from userid 118) id C8C38278C; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:43:50 -0500 (EST) From: plan9@sigint.cs.purdue.edu To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020222084350.A2087@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from rob@plan9.bell-labs.com on Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 08:29:48AM -0500 X-Disclaimer: Any similarity to an opinion of Purdue is purely coincidental Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:43:50 -0500 On Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 08:29:48AM -0500, rob pike wrote: > > I've been playing with GCC 3.0 > > on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. > > What did you find impressive? The way the lights in my house dimmed when compiling hello_world.c. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 00:04:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 00:04:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27554 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 00:04:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27550 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 00:04:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 00:04:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A53CF19A4A; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:04:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 27213199A3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16eH0P-0001bK-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:49:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Shlomi Tal Message-ID: <3c76522f@news.bezeqint.net> Organization: Bezeq International Ltd. Subject: [9fans] Hello World or (etc) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:46:22 GMT Remember the classic paper "Hello World or Kalimera Kosme or Konichiwa Sekai"? It was about how Plan 9 was converted to Unicode (UTF-8). The attachment is an HTML rendering I made of the paper, in UTF-8, using Windows 2000 and Vim 6.0. It looks better than the HTML doc you have on the Bell Labs website, IMHO, though a Japanese font is needed. The source is here: http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ ST begin 666 p9-hw.htm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ri, 22 Feb 2002 10:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16150442 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 2002 15:04:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO noos.fr) ([195.132.21.162]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.73 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; 22 Feb 2002 15:04:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3C765DEA.5040102@noos.fr> From: Philippe Anel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020209 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Acid bug ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:04:10 +0100 Hi, According to the Acid Manual, The supported format characters are : -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- Formats ... b print byte in "hexadecimal". .... -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- But in /sys/src/cmd/acid/buildin.c, we have in the function "void patom(char type, Store *res)" : -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- switch(res->fmt) { ... case 'b': Bprint(bout, "%3d", (int)res->ival&0xff); break; ... } -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- Do you know a good way to add extensions to the builtin functions of acid ? (without modifing the acid sources) Philippe, From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 01:17:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 01:17:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28000 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 01:17:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27996 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 01:17:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 01:17:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6C45E19A7C; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:16:59 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 74D9F19A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:15:25 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 16bit C compilers From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020222161525.74D9F19A62@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:15:17 -0500 // Last I heard a MIPS was a 32 bit processor. MIPS produces both 32 and 64 bit processors. it is true that MIPS sells far more chips for embeded systems than for desktops/servers. shortly after the MIPS-based Nintendo 64 started shipping, MIPS became the most common 64 or 32 bit embeded chip (finally dislodging one of the 68K series from the top spot). i'm not sure if it's still #1. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 02:12:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 02:12:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28736 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 02:12:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28732 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 02:12:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 02:12:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 48A4B19A58; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:12:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D5F6319A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05357 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:11:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202221711.MAA05357@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:29:48 EST." From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:11:02 -0500 > > I've been playing with GCC 3.0 > > on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. > > What did you find impressive? The sheer '57 Cadillac-like size, baby, and the fact that the source code is actually a stegenographic rendering of a picture of 27 flying Elvis's parachuting onto the strip. - Dan ``Vegas, Baby! Vegas!'' C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 02:30:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 02:30:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28829 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 02:30:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28824 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 02:30:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 02:30:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D2DE619A68; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:30:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 77DA419A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:29:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2798085ca5c5ec875b24a62dad2d8348@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Acid bug ? From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-nhrsdouazlymfhbveragngazdq" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:27:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-nhrsdouazlymfhbveragngazdq Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The documentation is wrong, although perhaps the code should be fixed to match the documentation rather than the other way around. In fact, I think I'll do that. There is not a good way to add extensions to the builtins. Coincidentally, though, I rewrote itoa() last weekend to make it easier to control the format in which an integer appears. With the code below you can say, besides the old itoa(27), itoa(27, "%x"), itoa(27, "value is %#.8x"), etc. The format string is a general print format that a) must accept ints and b) has the sense of %#x inverted. I fully acknowledge the utter hackedness of this. A better idea should be employed. -rob In main.c, int xconv(va_list *arg, Fconv *f) { f->f3 ^= 1<<2; /* was |= */ return numbconv(arg, f); } In builtin.c, void cvtitoa(Node *r, Node *args) { Node res; Node *av[Maxarg]; int ival; char buf[128], *fmt; if(args == 0) err: error("itoa(number [, printformat]): arg count"); na = 0; flatten(av, args); if(na == 0 || na > 2) goto err; expr(av[0], &res); if(res.type != TINT) error("itoa(integer): arg type"); ival = (int)res.ival; fmt = "%d"; if(na == 2){ expr(av[1], &res); if(res.type != TSTRING) error("itoa(integer, string): arg type"); fmt = res.string->string; } sprint(buf, fmt, ival); r->op = OCONST; r->type = TSTRING; r->string = strnode(buf); r->fmt = 's'; } --upas-nhrsdouazlymfhbveragngazdq Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=message.txt Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Fri Feb 22 10:25:16 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Fri Feb 22 10:25:15 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4B6CF19A6C; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:25:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from smtp.noos.fr (verlaine.noos.net [212.198.2.73]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8CBF419992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 16150442 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 2002 15:04:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO noos.fr) ([195.132.21.162]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.73 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; 22 Feb 2002 15:04:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3C765DEA.5040102@noos.fr> From: Philippe Anel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020209 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Acid bug ? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:04:10 +0100 Hi, According to the Acid Manual, The supported format characters are : -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- Formats ... b print byte in "hexadecimal". .... -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- But in /sys/src/cmd/acid/buildin.c, we have in the function "void patom(char type, Store *res)" : -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- switch(res->fmt) { ... case 'b': Bprint(bout, "%3d", (int)res->ival&0xff); break; ... } -------------------------------------------------------cut-here---------------------- Do you know a good way to add extensions to the builtin functions of acid ? (without modifing the acid sources) Philippe, --upas-nhrsdouazlymfhbveragngazdq-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 03:43:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 03:43:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 29198 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 03:43:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29194 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 03:43:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 03:43:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 06D7D19A65; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:43:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1185919A72 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.cs.utwente.nl (zeus.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.12]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14554 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:40:16 +0100 (MET) Received: from copernicus.cs.utwente.nl by zeus.cs.utwente.nl (8.10.2+Sun/csrelay-Sol1.4/RB) id g1MIdb308865; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:39:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (belinfan@localhost) by copernicus.cs.utwente.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id g1MIdaR09315 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:39:36 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202221839.g1MIdaR09315@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> X-Authentication-Warning: copernicus.cs.utwente.nl: belinfan@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with version: MH 6.8.3 #20[UCI] To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:55:03 +0100." <200202221255.g1MCt3q02259@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> References: <20020222122536.A643419A6E@mail.cse.psu.edu> <200202221255.g1MCt3q02259@copernicus.cs.utwente.nl> From: Axel Belinfante X-Organisation: University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, Formal Methods and Tools Group, PO Box 217, NL-7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands X-Phone: +31 53 4893774 X-Telefax: +31 53 4893247 X-Face: 3YGZY^_!}k]>-k'9$LK?8GXbi?vs=2v*ut,/8z,z!(QNBk_>~:~"MJ_%i`sLLqGN,DGbkT@ N\jhX/jNLTz2hO_R"*RF(%bRvk+M,iU7SvVJtC*\B6Ud<7~`MGMp7rCI6LVp=%k=HE?-UCV?[p\$R? mI\n2/!#3/wZZsa[m7d;PKWiuH6'~ List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 19:39:35 +0100 This is a multipart MIME message. --==_Exmh_-7312110660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For those who are interested, (and/or able to help or offer advice :-), a short update on what I tried and how far I got. I guessed my filsys lines, as below, but this did not give full success. filsys main cp(w0)0.25f(w1.<0-1>.0) filsys dump o filsys temp p(w0)25.75 I'm pretty sure that for the worm I just concatenated the two w1* devices; I'm slightly less sure about the partitions I had chosen for the cache and for temp (but I'm sure they make up w0). So far I noticed the following: - somehow, occasionally, when reading the config info from disk, it turns out to be corrupted, i.e. one of the keywords has been changed such that it is not recognized -> panic After the panic, on reading again, some other keyword may be corrupted -> panic again, until finally the whole thing is read OK. Since I don't (yet) have a way to just look at (what's on) the disks, I don't know what's there. I intend to add another disk to the fs, and install p9 on it, to be able to look at the disks from it. - when it is able to read the config, the fs shows the initialisation that it does for main, upto and including the devinit for drives (devices) w1.0.0 and w1.1.0, after which it hangs -- and one time I waited for about an hour to see if it would make any progress, which it didn't. - with the guessed strings, I tried a config of recover main but then I got a panic message about no superblock(s) - I tried to add debugging print statements to see where it hangs, which is in cwinit, in p = getbuf(cw->cdev, h->maddr + m/BKPERBLK, Bread); at the moment where m=260 (plus or minus a few), and h->msize=11000 (where I rounded to the neares thousand, I think). In the hope of getting more feedback I also added a checktag call, don't know if that is indeed the right one at the right place. It passes the checktag call, but that could be(?) because of the recover config request that I gave, even though it failed? (according to the source, cwrecover only invokes settag _after_ looking for a superblock in the worm) For completeness I attached my debugging version of cwinit. Now it's time for weekend; after the weekend I hope to install p9 on a new disk in the fs, to see if that gives anything. Axel. --==_Exmh_-7312110660 Content-Type: text/plain ; name="fsdebg"; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: fsdebg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="fsdebg" void cwinit(Device *dev) { Cw *cw; Cache *h; Iobuf *cb, *p; long l, m; cwinit1(dev); cw = dev->private; l = devsize(cw->wdev); cb = getbuf(cw->cdev, CACHE_ADDR, Bread|Bmod|Bres); if(!cb || checktag(cb, Tcache, QPSUPER)) /* AFEB */ panic("cwinit: checktag c bucket"); /* AFEB */ h = (Cache*)cb->iobuf; h->toytime = toytime() + SECOND(30); h->time = time(); m = h->wsize; if(l != m) { print("wdev changed size %ld to %ld\n", m, l); h->wsize = l; cb->flags |= Bmod; } for(m=0; mmsize; m++) { print("cwinit reading/checking %ld of %ld msize); /* AFEB DEBUG*/ p = getbuf(cw->cdev, h->maddr + m/BKPERBLK, Bread); print(">maddr + m/BKPERBLK)) panic("cwinit: checktag c bucket"); print(">\n"); } putbuf(cb); } --==_Exmh_-7312110660-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 05:03:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 05:03:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 29615 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 05:03:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29610 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 05:03:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 05:03:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5729719A64; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:03:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from smtp.noos.fr (racine.noos.net [212.198.2.71]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7FCE19A67 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3873806 invoked by uid 0); 22 Feb 2002 20:02:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO noos.fr) ([195.132.21.162]) (envelope-sender ) by 212.198.2.71 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; 22 Feb 2002 20:02:09 -0000 Message-ID: <3C76A3C9.9080302@noos.fr> From: Philippe Anel User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020209 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] Re: Acid Bug Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:02:17 +0100 > The documentation is wrong, although perhaps the code should be fixed > to match the documentation rather than the other way around. In fact, > I think I'll do that. > Ok. > There is not a good way to add extensions to the builtins. Coincidentally, > though, I rewrote itoa() last weekend to make it easier to control the> > format in which an integer appears. With the code below you can say, > besides the old itoa(27), itoa(27, "%x"), itoa(27, "value is %#.8x"), etc. > The format string is a general print format that a) must accept ints and > b) has the sense of %#x inverted. > I'll give it a try this weekend. > I fully acknowledge the utter hackedness of this. A better idea should > be employed. > Before your answer, I thought about adding a fmtinstall(2) like feature to builtins so we can write something like : -----------------------------------cut-here---------- complex FComplex { 'g' 0 r; 'g' 4 i; } defn Xconv(addr) { print("[", ((FComplex)addr).r, "," ((FComplex)addr).i, "]"); } fmtinstall('Y', Xconv); addr = fmt(addr, 'Y'); -----------------------------------cut-here----------- But now I feel that it is not worth the effort. Philippe, From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 07:32:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 07:32:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30312 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 07:32:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30308 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 07:32:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 07:32:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 70BDD19991; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:32:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9CB3E199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:31:15 -0500 (EST) From: anothy@cosym.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020222223115.9CB3E199B3@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] CD-RW or IDE controller issues? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:31:13 -0500 i've got what i believe to be an MMC CD-RW drive attached to the IDE chain in my terminal. the bios sees it fine, but it doesn't show up in plan 9. i've never had anything on this IDE chain before, and i'm assured the drive is MMC. any suggestions for testing either the IDE controller (i don't have extra devices to plug in; i'm looking for something akin to scuzz i can apply to controllers) or the drive would be much appreciated. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sat Feb 23 22:38:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sat Feb 23 22:38:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8583 invoked by uid 1020); 23 Feb 2002 22:38:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8579 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2002 22:38:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 23 Feb 2002 22:38:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C59CF19A06; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:38:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ms1.nttdata.co.jp (ms1.nttdata.co.jp [163.135.193.232]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 34BC4199DD for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 08:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.nttdata.co.jp ([163.135.10.21]) by ms1.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-02/08/02) with ESMTP id UAA13745 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:49:46 +0900 (JST) From: iwanek@nttdata.co.jp Received: from noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-02/08/02) with ESMTP id UAA21602 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:49:50 +0900 (JST) Received: from noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp [10.1.49.13]) by noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id UAA16545 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:48:22 +0900 (JST) Received: by noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:49:33 +0900 Message-ID: <50F591D39557D511B12C0090274DCEBC041B60DD@noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: RE: [9fans] CD-RW or IDE controller issues? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:49:21 +0900 anothy@cosym.net wrote: > i've got what i believe to be an MMC CD-RW > drive attached to the IDE chain in my > terminal. the bios sees it fine, but it > doesn't show up in plan 9. I am having a similar problem. On my P4 system, #S/sdD0 is connected to a DVD-ROM and #S/sdD1 to a CD-RW. Both drives are not detected. I've been fiddling with /sys/src/9/pc/sdata.c and I think I found the place: it's ataidentify() where it calls as = ataready(cmdport, ctlport, 0, Bsy, Drq|Err, 400*1000); and this times out (returns -1). I've tried increasing the magic number (400*1000) to various values. Larger value (500*1000) sometimes works, but not always. I am stuck. P.S. How can I make use of atadebug()? I put a print() in ataready() and immediately regret it. - kazumi From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 24 02:03:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 24 02:03:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10621 invoked by uid 1020); 24 Feb 2002 02:03:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10617 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2002 02:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 24 Feb 2002 02:03:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1A19019981; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:03:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 865521999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:02:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: RE: [9fans] CD-RW or IDE controller issues? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:02:01 -0500 > Larger value (500*1000) sometimes works, but not > always. I am stuck. How about 800*1000? It's only microseconds. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Sun Feb 24 06:43:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Sun Feb 24 06:43:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13356 invoked by uid 1020); 24 Feb 2002 06:43:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13352 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2002 06:43:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 24 Feb 2002 06:43:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F2C50199A3; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:43:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wullbinkle.real.com (wullbinkle.real.com [207.188.22.31]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C4F9B1999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.com (murrow2k1.real.com [207.188.7.41]) by wullbinkle.real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1NLgstC025565 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:42:54 -0800 Received: from skipt.real.com (pppoe0570.gh.centurytel.net [209.206.248.99]) by real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1NLh2Ma006576 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:43:03 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020223122656.02db26d8@mail.real.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: skipt@real.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_16797443==_" Subject: [9fans] missing ARP replies Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:58:09 -0800 --=====================_16797443==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm stuck! After upgrading a 9pc (just the display hardware), it now can't find AS, because it doesn't get a reply to its ARP request. I was working before the upgrade. It 'il' boots from a cpu/auth server. I've eliminated dhcp by hand coding the il boot parameters. I've attached the output from snoopy (running on cpu/auth) and ethereal (running on a Win2K) The third frame in the Ethereal output corresponds to the first line of snoopy output. What is strange is that Ethereal doesn't seem to see the reply from cpu/auth box? The only thing I can see is that the ARP requests that have trailers after the frame type don't seem to get a reply from cpu/auth. It is possible I messed up some additional parameters to the elnk3 drivers in plan9.ini, but I can't seem to find any references. 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(ms0.nttdata.co.jp [163.135.193.231]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 60B3E19995 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.nttdata.co.jp ([163.135.10.21]) by ms0.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-02/08/02) with ESMTP id UAA05603 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:19:14 +0900 (JST) From: iwanek@nttdata.co.jp Received: from noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W-NTTDATA-TOP-02/08/02) with ESMTP id UAA00303 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:18:57 +0900 (JST) Received: from noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp [10.1.49.13]) by noanetmx0.noanet.nttdata.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with ESMTP id UAA17439 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:17:32 +0900 (JST) Received: by noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:18:42 +0900 Message-ID: <50F591D39557D511B12C0090274DCEBC041B611D@noanet03.noanet.nttdata.co.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: RE: [9fans] CD-RW or IDE controller issues? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:18:34 +0900 Russ Cox wrote: > > Larger value (500*1000) sometimes works, but not > > always. I am stuck. > > How about 800*1000? Sorry, it was a typo. I meant 5000*1000. > It's only microseconds. That's what I thought, too. Funny thing is that the drives do get detected onece in a while. I suspect there is something else affecting the behaviour. - kazumi From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 10:31:30 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 10:31:30 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30520 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 10:31:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30516 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 10:31:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 10:31:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5784719999; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:31:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.101.69]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E53AE199B3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:30:27 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp MIME-Version: 1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225013027.E53AE199B3@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:30:58 +0900 >1) I am wondering if anyone is developing, > or planning, a GUI toolkit for Plan 9? As Charles pointed out, we have control(2) for that where we are working for our application. According to my understanding, we need some more exercise how we can implement GUI programs for Plan 9. Plan 9 has different strategy from those of X applications. Plan 9 uses concurrent programming and threads(coroutines) for it. We are now just trying to use its single threaded application, which means we have only four processes for an application, and one of which consists of many kinds of threads (= coroutines). So far as our program, we have no problem in this strategy. However, some much larger program may require multi-threaded strategy, which is the point I described above. (for out program, I believe we can make it public in March, we need some more debugging now, and Yoshitatsu has to write thesis. ^_^) Kenji From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 17:58:42 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 17:58:42 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9302 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 17:58:41 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9298 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 17:58:41 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 17:58:41 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 30082199A3; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:58:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D5E3A199EC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:57:08 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225085709.D5E3A199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] query the fs about its config Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:56:37 +0100 Shouldn't the fs kernel have a `showconfig' or something like that to print its config? I may try to change the source of my ide fs kernel to let it do that; but that depends on how much spare time I can get for this. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:03:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:03:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10563 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:03:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10559 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:03:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:03:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3AE0A199BE; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:03:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 65CA319988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fHpZ-00063F-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:54:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: bigbinc Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] can I still buy it? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:50:22 GMT Is plan9 still for sale from bell-labs and will it still be on sell(lets say a year from now)? I am a student so a new operating system appeals to me. What are your unbiased comments on the system interesting. I guess the real important thing(to me) anyway, what does it is 'fell' like using the system. Linux is great after you have used it for 3-4 years.(w/o prior unix knowledge of course) Does plan-9 have that abrasive learning curve for performing complex stuff. Berlin Brown bigbinc@hotmail.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:10:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:10:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10684 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:10:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10680 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:10:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:10:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A4CF6199DD; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:10:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id BE207199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:09:25 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] can I still buy it? From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-gklatnqkydsqeooiswtqzcijnf" Message-Id: <20020225100925.BE207199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:09:16 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-gklatnqkydsqeooiswtqzcijnf Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No need to buy. Just go to http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist and download. This list is the wrong place for an unbiased opinion. But, I'll try... Plan 9 is interesting. --upas-gklatnqkydsqeooiswtqzcijnf Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Mon Feb 25 09:56:57 GMT 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B26221999B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:03:07 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 65CA319988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fHpZ-00063F-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:54:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: bigbinc Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] can I still buy it? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:50:22 GMT Is plan9 still for sale from bell-labs and will it still be on sell(lets say a year from now)? I am a student so a new operating system appeals to me. What are your unbiased comments on the system interesting. I guess the real important thing(to me) anyway, what does it is 'fell' like using the system. Linux is great after you have used it for 3-4 years.(w/o prior unix knowledge of course) Does plan-9 have that abrasive learning curve for performing complex stuff. Berlin Brown bigbinc@hotmail.com --upas-gklatnqkydsqeooiswtqzcijnf-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:27:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:27:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10865 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10861 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:27:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7B95F1999B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:27:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 454C5199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fI5e-0006Ql-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:38 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <874rk9i5e7.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <20020222084350.A2087@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:09:44 GMT plan9@sigint.cs.purdue.edu writes: > On Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 08:29:48AM -0500, rob pike wrote: > > > I've been playing with GCC 3.0 > > > on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. > > > > What did you find impressive? > > The way the lights in my house dimmed when compiling hello_world.c. I thought he meant the way it vastly outperformed puny little toy compilers like the one in Plan 9. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:27:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:27:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10872 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10868 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:27:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EB0C719A27; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:27:17 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 86C0B1999B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fI5e-0006Qr-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:38 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: phaet0n Message-ID: <758512ed.0202221428.189fc824@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <20020222122902.00AE819A31@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:15 GMT forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>1) I am wondering if anyone is developing, > >> or planning, a GUI toolkit for Plan 9? > > man 2 control Apologies. Could someone put this in the FAQ. My hardcopy docs are from the initial open release and don't have man pages for control. rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) wrote: > > I've been playing with GCC 3.0 > > on Linux, and I'm pretty impressed. > > What did you find impressive? Just reflecting on the sheer amount of software that depends on GCC `working'. Toughts of targeting it's back-end don't scare me as much as with the 2.x series. Not that the interface has changed much, but it's more organized. One question answered, two to go. This might be my lucky week... -- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:27:30 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:27:30 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10884 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10880 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:27:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:27:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AD12919995; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:27:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9C374199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fI7r-0006Sl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:12:55 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Serge Gagnon Message-ID: Organization: Bell Sympatico Subject: [9fans] vga prob after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:40 GMT I have a video card using a nvidia chipset. After added a line into the vgadb, rio start in video and the installation is ok in 1024x768x8...good. But, when I reboot , I got a message : vgactl type unknow. "Bizarre". Nvidia is a know chip for the installation, but not for the plan9 system itself... I tried something : I copy the /aux/vga when I boot from the install floppy and copy it when I boot from the plan9 system and got a new message : vgactlw type error in system call It`s sure that I missed something somewhere...but I dont know what.. Pc : x86 video : Asus v3800M Thanks -- Serge Gagnon From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 19:31:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 19:31:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10951 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 19:31:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10947 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 19:31:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 19:31:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8EF80199EC; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:31:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from 9fs.org (cotswold.demon.co.uk [194.222.75.186]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A8108199E4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:30:34 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] vga prob after install From: nigel@9fs.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-zqcgzuebdpnjgjekspjrjeddub" Message-Id: <20020225103034.A8108199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:30:35 0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-zqcgzuebdpnjgjekspjrjeddub Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like the kernel which is booting does not have the nvidia driver in it. --upas-zqcgzuebdpnjgjekspjrjeddub Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by cpu; Mon Feb 25 10:21:06 GMT 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CBF0719A08; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:27:24 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9C374199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fI7r-0006Sl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:12:55 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Serge Gagnon Message-ID: Organization: Bell Sympatico Subject: [9fans] vga prob after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:40 GMT I have a video card using a nvidia chipset. After added a line into the vgadb, rio start in video and the installation is ok in 1024x768x8...good. But, when I reboot , I got a message : vgactl type unknow. "Bizarre". Nvidia is a know chip for the installation, but not for the plan9 system itself... I tried something : I copy the /aux/vga when I boot from the install floppy and copy it when I boot from the plan9 system and got a new message : vgactlw type error in system call It`s sure that I missed something somewhere...but I dont know what.. Pc : x86 video : Asus v3800M Thanks -- Serge Gagnon --upas-zqcgzuebdpnjgjekspjrjeddub-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 20:49:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 20:49:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 11850 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 20:49:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 11846 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 20:49:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 20:49:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2BCB6199B3; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:49:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EA51219A08 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1PBf2pZ003736 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:41:02 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7A2488.35EDF130@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] rio /dev/mouse References: <200202220550.g1M5oJk246675@mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:48:24 +0100 YAMANASHI Takeshi wrote: > > I'm using Microsoft Intelli wheel mouse now. I have a Logitech Wingman Gaming Mouse on a serial interface. aux/mouse does not like it. It's bound to be some stupid dance that has to be done to get the mouse to behave. If I had an RS-232 protocol analyser I'd fix it. Hacking aux/mouse looks like no fun, because it has to deal with all that 'orrible RS-232 glop. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 21:48:48 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 21:48:48 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 12497 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 21:48:47 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 12493 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 21:48:47 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 21:48:47 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CB79B19A6A; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:48:40 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A2B8F19A59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fKKR-000334-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:34:03 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andries Brouwer Message-ID: Organization: CWI, Amsterdam References: <35ef49e9.0202201813.44689baf@posting.google.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Run Plan9 Problem On Virtual PC __please help me Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:33:42 GMT watercloud writes: : I have install plan9 os on my Virtual PC successfully,but I could not run it! : When I run it ,the messages is following: : PBS...Plan 9 from Bell Labs ... : 4674 free pages : 18696K bytes : 98696K swap : Then the cursor stops on the screen and keeps flashing, : but the system no any act. Nothing is wrong with your Virtual PC. Precisely the same happens on an actual machine. IIRC north_ came with a workaround a month or two ago. Search the archives. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:26:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:26:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13590 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:26:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13586 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:26:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:26:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2917D19988; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:26:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5A08019988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:25:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] query the fs about its config MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:25:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depends on what you mean by its config cat '#P'/ioalloc cat '#P'/irqalloc cat '#c'/drivers --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=message.txt Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 03:58:18 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 03:58:16 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6FBC71999B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:58:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D5E3A199EC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:57:08 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225085709.D5E3A199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] query the fs about its config Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:56:37 +0100 Shouldn't the fs kernel have a `showconfig' or something like that to print its config? I may try to change the source of my ide fs kernel to let it do that; but that depends on how much spare time I can get for this. --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:29:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:29:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13619 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:29:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13615 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:29:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:29:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 15E33199E4; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:29:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A946819A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:28:23 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] query the fs about its config From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225142823.A946819A00@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:28:09 +0100 : Depends on what you mean by its config The config info compiled from the fsconfig commands you gave while configuring your Plan 9 file server (the separate fs kernel, I mean). From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:35:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:35:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13668 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:35:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13664 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:35:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:35:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0676619A6B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:35:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8344E199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:34:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:34:34 -0500 > I thought he meant the way it vastly outperformed puny little toy > compilers like the one in Plan 9. I've heard this before. People talk about GCC as though it's fast and generates particularly efficient code. Neither of these appears to be true, at least as of a couple of years ago. I was teaching a course and, requiring ANSI C, made the students use the commercial SUN C compiler instead of GCC. (GCC isn't strict or accurate about ANSI no matter how many flags you turn on.) I heard a lot of complaints from the students that GCC was better so we did a shootout. The SUN compiler ran several times faster and the code it produced ran about 10%-40% faster on a variety of benchmarks. This, of course, was on the SPARC. Much longer ago, we did a similar shootout with Plan 9's compiler against GCC on the MIPS, with similar results, but I hear GCC has improved somewhat on that architecture. I just did a sloppy compile-time test of Plan 9's 8c against GCC on a 386 and see that 8c runs dramatically faster. I don't dispute that GCC could be generating better code, however; I didn't test that and 8c isn't particularly good. For me, though, compile time matters more than quality of code, as long as the code is reasonable. In summary, GCC is reliable, may generate good code (although there's evidence it's not stellar), but is slow to compile. Please define 'outperform'. I won't dispute 'puny' for the Plan 9 compiler, although I think 'toy' is unwarranted. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:40:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:40:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13711 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:40:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13706 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:40:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:40:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5727519A08; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:40:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 970D219980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:39:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <71f9dbfbfc8fadc420ee2b20663fb731@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:39:17 -0500 By the way, if someone out there has Linux and Plan 9 running on the same hardware, I would be genuinely interested in seeing an good comparison of run-time and code quality. Thanks. I didn't define 'dramatically' in my last message because a) there were two different machines involved and b) the header files involved were quite different. (But it was _dramatic_, and the Plan 9 machine is much slower.) -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:42:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:42:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13752 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:42:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13748 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:42:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:42:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BB7FE19A6D; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:42:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 52B7019992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:41:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:41:25 -0500 Also, Plan 9's compilers are known to be weak in floating point, so make sure you include tests that both include and exclude FP. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:47:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:47:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13817 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:47:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13813 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:47:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:47:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A921E19A61; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 8D32C19A56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:46:18 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] vga prob after install From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-hciextgvpzdnvzamxgsitltcre" Message-Id: <20020225144618.8D32C19A56@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:48:39 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-hciextgvpzdnvzamxgsitltcre Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit the installation kernel knows of nvidia, however the p9 distribution you installed does not.. the message 'unknown controller' is indicative of aux/vga (the new one you installed) not having nvidia support.. download the vganvidia.c, nvidia.c and something.h files and do the following: just add the nvidia.c and registers.h (forgot the exact name) to /sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/, edit the mkfile to get nvidia.c to compile, edit data.c to add nvidia and nvidiahwgc controllers (the Ctlr* ctlrs[] at the beginning) and you're almost set.. type 'mk install' in the same directory (disk/kfscmd allow may be required) and you'll have an aux/vga that speaks nvidia.. restart and mail me privately if it's still not working (you may have to add support in the kernel too -- the vganvidia.c file is for that)... andrey --upas-hciextgvpzdnvzamxgsitltcre Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from acl.lanl.gov ([128.165.147.1]) by acl.lanl.gov; Mon Feb 25 03:28:27 MST 2002 Received: (qmail 2110332 invoked by uid 18927); 25 Feb 2002 03:28:27 -0700 Delivered-To: andrey@acl.lanl.gov Received: (qmail 2096705 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 03:27:30 -0700 Received: from mailrelay1.lanl.gov (128.165.4.101) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 03:27:30 -0700 Received: from mailproxy1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1PARUr07996; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:27:30 -0700 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mailproxy1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1PAT6203976; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:29:07 -0700 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AD12919995; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:27:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9C374199F2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fI7r-0006Sl-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:12:55 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Serge Gagnon Message-ID: Organization: Bell Sympatico Subject: [9fans] vga prob after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:10:40 GMT I have a video card using a nvidia chipset. After added a line into the vgadb, rio start in video and the installation is ok in 1024x768x8...good. But, when I reboot , I got a message : vgactl type unknow. "Bizarre". Nvidia is a know chip for the installation, but not for the plan9 system itself... I tried something : I copy the /aux/vga when I boot from the install floppy and copy it when I boot from the plan9 system and got a new message : vgactlw type error in system call It`s sure that I missed something somewhere...but I dont know what.. Pc : x86 video : Asus v3800M Thanks -- Serge Gagnon --upas-hciextgvpzdnvzamxgsitltcre-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:56:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:56:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13928 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:56:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13924 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:56:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:56:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E1A71199F2; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:56:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id DA2B119A0C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] query the fs about its config MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-frqsdmylzzolwdvlcxhvpkfvos" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:55:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-frqsdmylzzolwdvlcxhvpkfvos Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I clearly didn't read the original message. Looks like someone already added it to ours version of the file server, probably jmk. It's called printconf. Here's the relevant routines. You can snarf and paste to the current code. Hopefully we'll get the full version out there soon: from config.c: void cmd_printconf(int, char *[]) { char *p, *s; Iobuf *iob; iob = getbuf(confdev, 0, Bread); if(iob == nil) return; if(checktag(iob, Tconfig, 0)){ putbuf(iob); return; } print("config %s\n", nvrgetconfig()); s = p = iob->iobuf; while(*p != 0 && p < iob->iobuf+BUFSIZE){ if(*p++ != '\n') continue; print("%.*s", (int)(p-s), s); s = p; } if(p != s) print("%.*s", (int)(p-s), s); print("end\n"); putbuf(iob); } From auth.c char* nvrgetconfig(void) { return nvr.config; } From con.c's command table cmd_install("printconf", "-- print configuration", cmd_printconf); --upas-frqsdmylzzolwdvlcxhvpkfvos Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=message.txt Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 09:26:17 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 09:26:16 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5E487199EE; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:26:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 5A08019988 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:25:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] query the fs about its config MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:25:31 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Depends on what you mean by its config cat '#P'/ioalloc cat '#P'/irqalloc cat '#c'/drivers --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=message.txt Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 03:58:18 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Mon Feb 25 03:58:16 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6FBC71999B; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:58:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D5E3A199EC for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 03:57:08 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225085709.D5E3A199EC@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] query the fs about its config Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:56:37 +0100 Shouldn't the fs kernel have a `showconfig' or something like that to print its config? I may try to change the source of my ide fs kernel to let it do that; but that depends on how much spare time I can get for this. --upas-ktaqjglmtscokjbjpiueivawpa-- --upas-frqsdmylzzolwdvlcxhvpkfvos-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Mon Feb 25 23:58:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Mon Feb 25 23:58:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 13955 invoked by uid 1020); 25 Feb 2002 23:58:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 13951 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 23:58:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 23:58:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8CA3B19A28; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:58:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2311A19999 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:57:10 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-fmhrcfncexvxjktdlycblxlzzc" Message-Id: <20020225145710.2311A19999@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:59:31 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-fmhrcfncexvxjktdlycblxlzzc Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i did that about a year ago -- p9 and linux on identical hardware. i think i did post the results here.. i still have kept a powerpoint presentation that should have them mentioned too, i can put it somewhere on the web if you want.. in short, p9 was lagging insignificantly (something like 2 seconds out of 60) for pov-ray image rendering (no IO).. for dna sequence matching (fasta algorithm) it was slower, but i contribute that to the overall unoptimized IO of the system (i may be wrong)... compile time was hands down a p9 win... andrey ps: it is possible to set-up a p9/linux shootout here, but i'm not sure whether we may do so :) --upas-fmhrcfncexvxjktdlycblxlzzc Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from acl.lanl.gov ([128.165.147.1]) by acl.lanl.gov; Mon Feb 25 07:41:15 MST 2002 Received: (qmail 2108822 invoked by uid 18927); 25 Feb 2002 07:41:15 -0700 Delivered-To: andrey@acl.lanl.gov Received: (qmail 2087527 invoked from network); 25 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0700 Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov (128.165.3.1) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 25 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0700 Received: from mailproxy1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1PEeIv16815; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0700 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mailproxy1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1PEft228408; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:41:55 -0700 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5727519A08; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:40:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 970D219980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:39:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <71f9dbfbfc8fadc420ee2b20663fb731@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:39:17 -0500 By the way, if someone out there has Linux and Plan 9 running on the same hardware, I would be genuinely interested in seeing an good comparison of run-time and code quality. Thanks. I didn't define 'dramatically' in my last message because a) there were two different machines involved and b) the header files involved were quite different. (But it was _dramatic_, and the Plan 9 machine is much slower.) -rob --upas-fmhrcfncexvxjktdlycblxlzzc-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 00:36:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 00:36:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 14371 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 00:36:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14367 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 00:36:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 00:36:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A2F9019A67; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:36:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 848D919A59 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:35:54 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020225153554.848D919A59@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] 8c vs. gcc shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:35:44 -0500 i know little of benchmarking, but i'm not clear on how we could build this test and have the results really be very meaningfull. that is, how does one account for things like the differing header files? would using, say, Inferno's lib9.h and friends in both cases be reasonable? how 'bout the underlying OS's differences, like syscall time or differences in the scheduler? are they considered negligable (if we're dealing with times on the order of a minute, i'd certainly hope so)? should we be building something to run on the raw hardware? i've got Plan 9 and FreeBSD w/ GCC running on identical hardware. if someone could provide me with (or point me at) suitable code to run the compile and execute tests on, i'd be happy to do so. how significant are the penalties imposed by using APE likely to be? in one respect, it'd be nice to use identical code, but then GCC has the advantage of running it its native environment, while 8c has to emulate. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:10:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:10:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15240 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:10:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15236 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:10:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:10:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8B06319A70; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:10:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 4F76919A56 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:09:58 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225170958.4F76919A56@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] ide fs kernel updated w/ printconf Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:09:45 +0100 I just added the command sent by presotto (printconf) to the version of the fs kernel we use (The one distributed with the system, but patched to work on 40G ide disks). The mail is to let you know that I placed a tar ball with already-patched /sys/src/^(plan9pc port) directories at http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/. You have to follow a link there in the section "Software for Plan 9". It's probably easier to download this than it is to apply the previous patch by hand and then compile. hth From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:18:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:18:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15275 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15271 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:18:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 49C2C19A77; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:18:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0A21619A71 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fOf3-0003b8-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:11:37 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87zo1x8qjb.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020225153554.848D919A59@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] 8c vs. gcc shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:11:02 GMT anothy@cosym.net writes: > i've got Plan 9 and FreeBSD w/ GCC running on identical > hardware. if someone could provide me with (or point me > at) suitable code to run the compile and execute tests on, > i'd be happy to do so. The problem is that you want to control not just for header files but for the general time the system takes. I think it's patently obvious that the Plan 9 kernel itself is much more tightly coded than either BSD or Linux. It would be *even better* if the Plan 9 kernel were being compiled with an optimizing compiler. So the real test of compile speed is: Compile one system with 8c, and then use the 8c compiler. Compile the *same* system with GCC -O3, and then use GCC with no -O. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:18:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:18:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15282 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:32 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15278 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:18:32 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A807419A60; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:18:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4ED5819A71 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fOeI-0003Zn-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:50 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <878z9ha5b4.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <71f9dbfbfc8fadc420ee2b20663fb731@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:36 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > By the way, if someone out there has Linux and Plan 9 running on the > same hardware, I would be genuinely interested in seeing an good > comparison of run-time and code quality. Thanks. I didn't define > 'dramatically' in my last message because a) there were two different > machines involved and b) the header files involved were quite > different. (But it was _dramatic_, and the Plan 9 machine is much > slower.) I once did some instrumentation of GCC run times when -O was not being used, and a *vast* amount of time was being spent processing includes in the C preprocessor. (Hence my assertion that optimizing the rest of the system would do a lot more to speed up compilation than using a toy compiler would.) That was on an HP-300 running BSD; I don't know any such information for more modern computers. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:18:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:18:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15289 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15285 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:18:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 42D4419A82; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:18:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 25A4619A72 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fOf2-0003b2-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:11:36 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87d6yta5dj.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:50 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > > I thought he meant the way it vastly outperformed puny little toy > > compilers like the one in Plan 9. > > I've heard this before. People talk about GCC as though it's fast and > generates particularly efficient code. I've never heard anyone claim that GCC is particularly fast; that's not a design goal. > Neither of these appears to be true, at least as of a couple of > years ago. I was teaching a course and, requiring ANSI C, made the > students use the commercial SUN C compiler instead of GCC. (GCC > isn't strict or accurate about ANSI no matter how many flags you > turn on.) I heard a lot of complaints from the students that GCC > was better so we did a shootout. The SUN compiler ran several times > faster and the code it produced ran about 10%-40% faster on a > variety of benchmarks. This, of course, was on the SPARC. Many years ago, GCC was better (that is, produced more efficient code) than all available commercial compilers but two; one was the Sun Sparc compiler, and the other was the MIPS compiler. The MIPS compiler was doing inter-function optimizations that GCC is not yet really capable of. The Sparc compiler, it happens, had special magic detectors for certain standard benchmarks, and if you were compiling one of those, it would spit out pre-made assembly code (it was obvious; the *formatting* of the code indicated it was not being produced by the normal codegen of the compiler). If you tweak the benchmarks slightly, the Sparc compiler was no longer very much better, though it still beat by a couple percent. I believe the MIPS compiler is still superior, but not the Sun Sparc compiler. > Much longer ago, we did a similar shootout with Plan 9's compiler > against GCC on the MIPS, with similar results, but I hear GCC has > improved somewhat on that architecture. Of course, my comment was about toy compilers like the Plan 9 one. Saying "GCC isn't as good as the Sparc compiler" doesn't mean that the Plan 9 compiler is anything but a cute toy. > I just did a sloppy compile-time test of Plan 9's 8c against GCC on a > 386 and see that 8c runs dramatically faster. I don't dispute that > GCC could be generating better code, however; I didn't test that and > 8c isn't particularly good. For me, though, compile time matters more > than quality of code, as long as the code is reasonable. Really? Having an optimizing compiler would make *everything* on the system run faster. I would bet you that "Running 8c on an unoptimized system" is *slower* than "Running GCC without -O on an optimized system". Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:18:44 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:18:44 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15297 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:44 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15292 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:18:43 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:18:43 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3694419A76; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:18:35 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 69E2C19A72 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fOeI-0003Zh-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:50 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <874rk5a593.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:23 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > Also, Plan 9's compilers are known to be weak in floating point, so > make sure you include tests that both include and exclude FP. I think everyone can agree that for systems programming, floating point is not a very important benchmark, though it is exceedingly important for many users. However, one way of implementing zooming user interfaces is very floating point dependent, so it is perhaps becoming more important than it used to be. (My preferred implementation is with exact rationals, however, so it doesn't really matter to me.) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:26:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:26:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15347 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:26:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15343 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:26:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:26:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D06B319A59; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:26:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 75DBE19A00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24572 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:25:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202251725.MAA24572@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:10:50 GMT." <87d6yta5dj.fsf@becket.becket.net> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:25:15 -0500 Please don't feed the troll.... - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 02:55:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 02:55:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15512 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 02:55:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15508 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 02:55:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 02:55:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7E024199EE; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:55:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5A26E19A3E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1PHl7pZ006594 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:47:07 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7A7A59.5A56712F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <87d6yta5dj.fsf@becket.becket.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:54:33 +0100 "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > I believe the MIPS compiler is still superior, ... The story I heard is that it had _twenty five thousand lines_ of code to do instruction re-ordering [to fill delay slots etc]. What a waste. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 03:21:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 03:21:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15644 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 03:21:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15640 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 03:21:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 03:21:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 04FCD19A66; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 57D4819A3E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:20:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00fb634799f783a698329ee48f284d41@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] rio /dev/mouse From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-coocqbkwcwtvkwdwukjhxppsld" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:20:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-coocqbkwcwtvkwdwukjhxppsld Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long ago, various pieces of the system cleared out the top bits but it looks to me like all that code is gone. A little debugging should tell you where the problem is. Put a print into /sys/src/cmd/rio/rio.c, in the routine mousethread(), right after case MMouse. Print out the state of mouse.buttons. If the button is cleared there, it's the library (/sys/src/libdraw/mouse.c); if it's still set here, then rio is doing it somewhere. I don't have an intellimouse handy but this should be easy for you to track down. -rob --upas-coocqbkwcwtvkwdwukjhxppsld Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=message.txt Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Fri Feb 22 00:53:18 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Fri Feb 22 00:53:17 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EE0519A63; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:53:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp (ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp [131.112.14.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 774FF19A67 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 31857 invoked from network); 22 Feb 2002 05:49:38 -0000 Received: from mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp (HELO o.cc.titech.ac.jp) (131.112.3.2) by ginnan.cc.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 22 Feb 2002 05:49:38 -0000 Received: from p9t by mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp (8.11.3/1.1.10.5/20Feb97-0455PM) id g1M5oJk246675; Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:50:20 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200202220550.g1M5oJk246675@mail-o.cc.titech.ac.jp> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: YAMANASHI Takeshi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] rio /dev/mouse Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:35:22 0900 I'm using Microsoft Intelli wheel mouse now. Without rio, I rolled up and down the wheel while doing `cat /dev/mouse', and its button state of the output was `8' or `16'. But under rio, `cat /dev/mouse' produced with the button state `0' only. Could you tell me what is happening and why? I want to change rio to interpret this 8 or 16 button state as either arrow-up or arrow-down keyboard event. -- Sincerely, YAMANASHI Takeshi --upas-coocqbkwcwtvkwdwukjhxppsld-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 03:22:12 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 03:22:12 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15652 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15648 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 03:22:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 55B1A19A79; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:22:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 2F99D19A3E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:29 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] 8c vs. gcc shootout From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020225182129.2F99D19A3E@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:13:06 0000 >>It would be *even better* if the Plan 9 kernel were being compiled >>with an optimizing compiler. it didn't make any appreciable difference when that was tried years ago (not by us) with Inferno, compiled with gcc on various platforms. it didn't make any appreciable difference with my own O/S on the sun3 and i386, and i suspect that's because in all those cases there was little code on which heavy-duty optimisation makes much difference. there is a fair amount of function calling but relatively little crunching. the main crunching that's done is data movement or graphics and both are optimised separately using non-compiler-specific techniques. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 03:22:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 03:22:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15665 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15661 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 03:22:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0434619A7D; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:22:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 207AC19A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fPao-0005qO-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:11:18 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: David Rubin Message-ID: <3C7A7D09.AFEFC476@hotmail.com> Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus, Ohio Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: Subject: [9fans] Re: can I still buy it? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:10:22 GMT bigbinc wrote: > [...] Linux is great after you > have used it for 3-4 years.(w/o prior unix knowledge of course) Does > plan-9 have that abrasive learning curve for performing complex stuff. Not if you've used Unix for three or four years... david -- If 91 were prime, it would be a counterexample to your conjecture. -- Bruce Wheeler From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 03:22:29 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 03:22:29 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15672 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15668 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 03:22:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 03:22:29 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8EDFA19A83; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:22:26 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 314A619A66 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fPao-0005qU-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:11:18 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: neitzel@gaertner.de (Martin Neitzel) Message-ID: Organization: Gaertner Datensysteme, Braunschweig, Germany References: <20020225100925.BE207199E4@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] can I still buy it? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:10:38 GMT >No need to buy. Just go to http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9dist >and download. I have bought the box with the two books and the CD just a month ago, and it's great value for the money. I am really glad I have all the papers for my first Plan9 steps. There's so much new material to be read, and much of it is not just an option but a requirement. Also, at certain times of the installation it was crucial to be able to read plan9.ini(8). Likewise, you better know your ways around in ed(1) when you need to amend vgalib during installation. If not, the books become essential, having net access on a second machine being a (cumbersome) substitute. Last but not least, the books are _beautiful_. One gets an amount of nice craftsmanship for the buck beyond the ordinary. Martin Neitzel From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 12:03:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 12:03:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22543 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 12:03:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22539 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 12:03:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 12:03:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 13FC219A72; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:03:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9F8F219A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:02:40 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020226030240.9F8F219A2A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:05:02 -0700 Hello, We spent the day here doing a simple compiler/os/p9-vs-the-world shootout.. Here's what we found... Machine: A single cpu 800mhz Athlon T-Bird system (k7). Each operating system was installed on a separate IBM Deskstar 30GB IDE drive. The video card used was NVidia TNT2, but that's not important since only plan9 ran any graphical interface (note: when attempting to test on P9 without rio the machine hung during ape/psh compilation). OS: Linux/RedHat 7.2, kernel 2.4.7 (ext3) standard install FreeBSD 4.5 fresh install (no softupdates turned on) Plan9 installed on-line (with kernel modification to accomodate NVidia graphics hardware) Software: The test was done using POV-Ray graphics/imaging sotware (www.povray.org).. We downloaded the latest 3.1 unix sources. The makefile for p9 was modified to compile under ape/psh. We removed most of the CFLAGS switches, set the compiler to pcc. The compile time reported under all OS's and compilers does *not* include time to compile libpng and zlib support. We used only POV-Ray - relevant files. Time given is the time it took to render a single frame of a predefined scene (explanation below). We chose to render using radiosity rather than ray-tracing, since radiosity is more computationaly intensive. The test is extremely floating-point heavy (or at least it should be -- after all it's graphics we're dealing with :). Each compilation resulted in a ppm image of size 1440015 bytes + 1910 bytes in an ASCII statistics file. POV-Ray keeps rough stats on its own, so the time reported is the actual time in seconds that POV-Ray thinks it was rendering (including initial parsing of the scene description file). All output was redirected to a file in order to avoid any console IO (this was not done for the compilation, though. The scene description could be found in: .../scenes/radios/rad2.pov in the POV-Ray distribution. Images generated were of size 800x600, in PPM format. Here is the string used to render them: (plan9 version given, others identical except for redirection syntax) povray +L/path/to/povray/libs rad2.ini +Irad2.pov +Oscene.ppm +FP +W800 +H600 -GA +GS >[2]out.txt For each platform/compiler pair we compiled two binaries -- one using the standard optimizations found in POV-Ray's makefile, the other without any optimization switches (e.g. gcc -c file.c). Povray uses the following optimizations: -O6 --finline-functions --ffast-math -m386 (deprecated in 3.0) Each compiler was given three runs, each run is reported. Some additional notes: FreeBSD 4.5 does not come with gcc 3.0, neither could it be found as a binary package. We had to compile it from the ports collection, but since it was a simple make; make install deal we got no optimization for it. It shows (compare the 3.0 results with the same fbsd using gcc 2.95 and a linux binary compiled with 3.0 under emulation)... --- Results (time in seconds): (please excuse bad formatting -- we elaborated on the idea of putting everything in an excel spreadsheet, but couldn't find any) OS/compiler/ optimization run #1 run #2 run #3 Compile time (mm:ss.ms) ------------------------------------------------ P9/8c/yes(?) 293 293 292 0:19.24 Lnx/3.0.2/yes 150 149 149 0:56.541 BSD/3.0.2/yes 170 170 170 0:55.04 BSD/3.0.2/yes 151 151 151 none (running linux binaries under emulation) Lnx/3.0.2/no 196 196 196 0:30.052 BSD/3.0.2/no 221 221 220 0:26.49 BSD/3.0.2/no 203 203 203 none (running linux binaries under emulation) Lnx/2.96/yes 147 147 148 0:56.848 BSD/2.95/yes 177 178 178 0:42.03 Lnx/2.96/no 203 204 203 0:55.620 BSD/2.95/no 208 208 208 0:18.76 ----- regards :) ps: reading the above forces you to agree not to use the information here in flammable, non-p9-related and in any way unscientific discussions :) pps: funny fact #430995: selecting gcc for installation on rh7.2 results in installing 220mb worth of dependencies. one of the more-importand ones is x-chat (or at least x-chat related)! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 12:12:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 12:12:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22726 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 12:12:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22722 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 12:12:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 12:12:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0FEF619A6C; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:12:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 92E0519A62 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:11:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <81e5f075d4f6e99e18f165b27e6da906@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:10:01 -0500 Great, thanks. I'd like to see a similar shootout using a non-floating-point application. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:19:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:19:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2183 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:19:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2179 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:19:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:19:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7432B19A26; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:19:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9AD50199BF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16feeZ-0003KI-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:16:11 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Don Message-ID: <8f6cf824.0202251219.1ce166e5@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Infrared roses Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:15:57 GMT Has anyone gotten the infrared port to work with plan9 on an IBM Thinkpad 600E (via the serial interface eiaX)? Don (north_) http://www.7f.no-ip.com/ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:20:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:20:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2196 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:20:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2192 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:20:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:20:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DEB9A19A04; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:20:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D7B41199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16feeY-0003KC-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:16:10 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Don Message-ID: <8f6cf824.0202251216.5652c0e4@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] Line-In Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:15:42 GMT Hm, I have absolutely zero experience with sound relative to personal computers and their various formats (beyond cdr and mp3). Is there an existing way to feed in audio data on Plan 9 thru 'Line In' and convert that data to mp3 either during streaming or after the line-in data has been saved to a file? I guess I am confused about what format /dev/audio is in. My assumption from the data in the man page (3) is that its cdr format. Is this correct? I've tried using lame to convert P9 /dev/audio data to mp3 with no luck what-so-ever. Thx in advance :) Don (north_) http://www.7f.no-ip.com/ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:20:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:20:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2204 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:20:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2200 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:20:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:20:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 83ACF19A29; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:20:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C5EAF19A04 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fedw-0003J0-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:15:32 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Don Message-ID: <8f6cf824.0202251206.2317297e@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <35ef49e9.0202201813.44689baf@posting.google.com>, Subject: [9fans] Re: Run Plan9 Problem On Virtual PC __please help me Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:15:25 GMT > Nothing is wrong with your Virtual PC. > Precisely the same happens on an actual machine. > > IIRC north_ came with a workaround a month or two ago. > Search the archives. Ja, apparently this isn't just a 486 problem, though, I've never been able to reproduce it on anything but 486. Heres a link to the quick hack: http://blessedchildren.virtualave.net/plan9/486.html Don (north_) http://www.7f.no-ip.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:33:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:33:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2386 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2382 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:33:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2E2F8199B7; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:33:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 900C019A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fepe-0003gH-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:38 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87n0xw9ajc.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020226030240.9F8F219A2A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:13 GMT andrey@lanl.gov (andrey mirtchovski) writes: > pps: funny fact #430995: selecting gcc for installation on rh7.2 > results in installing 220mb worth of dependencies. one of the > more-importand ones is x-chat (or at least x-chat related)! Oh, that's bizarre indeed! (shameless-plug "Yet another reason to prefer Debian to Red Hat!") Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:33:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:33:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2398 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2394 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:33:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AA50119A3E; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:33:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A573619A2A for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fepe-0003gB-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:38 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87vgck9amg.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020226030240.9F8F219A2A@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:01 GMT Interesting data! Thanks for doing the work, there is a fair bit there to ponder. I wish we had a test that controls for OS, but I understand that this is not available. My instrumentation showed that a fair bit of preprocessor time was spent looking for and reading in include files. (Like I said, that was on an HP-300 running BSD [specifically, More BSD], and I don't know how much that would be relevant to a current context.) Some observations from the data posted, however: The compile time using for the BSD/2.95/no test looks *really* low; are we sure about that number? It's a very strange outlier, isn't it? I'll mostly ignore that one, because it is *such* a surprise; GCC isn't normally thought to be that fast, but hey, maybe it really is. The test confirms that 8c is really fast at doing codegen with a compile time about one-third that of any of the GCC's. From the comments of Plan 9 folks, that was a primary goal in its design, and it does look (from this brief comparison) like they did a really good job! GCC's architecture is strongly geared towards optimization; even if no optimizing passes are done, a lot of work is set up towards enabling machine-independent optimization code, which is essentially wasted if no optimization is done. However, the speed of the resulting code under GCC seems far superior. 8c-generated code runs at about half the speed of GCC optimized code. A total curiosity is that running the Linux binaries under emulation in BSD is *faster* than running the native BSD binaries. It's hard to imagine that the BSD team specially optimized that case, does anyone have any knowledge or guesses? A real surprise for me was that non-optimized GCC also outperformed 8c, though less dramatically. I wonder if that might not be mostly because of the floating-point intensive nature of the test. Rob Pike mentioned that 8c was not so good at fp work, and the 386 especially requires extra special hair to make fp compilation anything approaching effecient. I would expect that on an integer test, we would not see much difference. Now, the BSD and Linux kernels that underlay these tests were of course compiled with optimized GCC, and this also might account for some of the difference; some of what looks like slowness in the code 8c produced might actually be slowness in the Plan 9 kernel (compiled by 8c). I don't know any good way to control for this without porting GCC to Plan 9 and compiling the kernel with it, or alternatively, porting 8c to Linux or BSD. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:33:31 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:33:31 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2405 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:30 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2401 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:33:30 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A72D519A54; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:33:27 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28521199BF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fep1-0003es-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:26:59 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87it8k9agd.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <81e5f075d4f6e99e18f165b27e6da906@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:26:49 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > Great, thanks. I'd like to see a similar shootout using a non-floating-point > application. Me too. Rob, can you say more about what 8c's shortcomings are in floating point? I think you alluded to them briefly, but I'm interested in hearing more. 386 floating point is particularly horrid; is the problem floating point in general, or is it floating point on freaky fp stack things like the 386 has? GCC had to develop a whole special extra codegen unit to manage to do fp on a 386 anything approaching well, and without something like that, it's pretty painful. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:33:39 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:33:39 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2412 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2408 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:33:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:33:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 15869199E8; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:33:36 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7ED60199ED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fep1-0003em-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:26:59 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87u1s5uo0d.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <3C7A7A59.5A56712F@strakt.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:26:34 GMT boyd@strakt.com (Boyd Roberts) writes: > "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > > I believe the MIPS compiler is still superior, ... > > The story I heard is that it had _twenty five thousand lines_ of code > to do instruction re-ordering [to fill delay slots etc]. > > What a waste. Yes, but actually really quite good at compiling! Speed is really important, of course, but it's usually thought that this is the reason why we want optimizing compilers. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:37:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:37:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2462 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:37:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2458 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:37:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:37:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A0AF3199BB; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:37:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C8446199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16feqO-0003hj-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:28:24 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: emerth@telusplanet.net Message-ID: <3C7B1C9A.7276C679@telusplanet.net> Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] help: boot problem after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:42 GMT Hi there, Can anyone suggest a solution to this problem? I've completed the install procedure succesfully, setup the boot to occur from the Plan9 partition, but on boot an error occurs: boot... choose local!#S/sdC0/fs default root option login as glenda with blank password system prints "kfs...boot: nop..." system executes the rc file(s) some messages are printed very quickly... system prints over & over: "wrenwrite failed: i/o error" I cannot quite catch the last few messages before the i/o error because things happen too quickly. I would imagine this is related to my plan9.ini, but I'm at a loss. Thanks in advance, Eric The system details are: PC system Abit BP6 dual Celeron mobo 2 Intel Celerons @ 366 MHz (not overclocked) BIOS settings are factory default 384 MB PC100 RAM no sound card ATI Rage 128 AGP video (this sort of works with some distortion in the install screen at 1024x768) RTL8139 based ethernet card (this isn't supported, but I'll be getting an Intel) IBM Deskstar 20 GB disk Plan9 is installed on 3rd partition, partition size is 1.5GB Partition 1 has PCDOS installed left over from a Netware install, partition 2 has Atheos installed (the partition table has been worked on by PCDOS, Netware 6, Linux and Plan9 ;-) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 19:37:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 19:37:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2469 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 19:37:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2465 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 19:37:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 19:37:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 59EEF19A63; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:37:18 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D3ADB19A0D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fepe-0003gN-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:38 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Douglas A. Gwyn" Message-ID: <3C7B08C1.7C65786C@null.net> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: , <3C7A7A59.5A56712F@strakt.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:31 GMT Boyd Roberts wrote: > The story I heard is that it had _twenty five thousand lines_ of code > to do instruction re-ordering [to fill delay slots etc]. Somehow I doubt 25,000 lines, unless most of it was comments documenting the architecture and algorithm thoroughly. However, it is certainly true that many of the architectural features being used on today's processors to speed things up are hard to exploit efficiently in a code generator, yet not exploiting them would pretty much defeat their purpose.. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 20:00:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 20:00:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2805 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 20:00:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2801 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 20:00:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 20:00:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 72C3819A3F; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:00:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D68B719A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 05:59:50 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020226105950.D68B719A05@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:15:32 0000 >>GCC had to develop a whole special extra codegen unit to manage to do >>fp on a 386 anything approaching well, and without something like >>that, it's pretty painful. the code generators are all custom, although the RISC ones are similar (and closely related), so that aspect of the peculiar floating-point isn't troublesome (which isn't to say it tries anything too fancy). the 680x0 and x86 compilers have a lot of custom code. the plan 9 c compilers aren't like pcc, which did a simple essentially one-pass translation (to assembler) with no optimisation. the compiler does function-level register allocation, addressing mode selection and broad instruction selection, with local code improvements. unusually, detailed (machine-level) instruction selection is done by the linker (which is in a good position to do ARM/Thumb linkage, literal pools, span-dependent instructions, instruction scheduling, etc.). only the linker knows the binary formats of instructions of a given processor or processor variant. some instructions issued by the compiler don't correspond to real instruction variants. the assembler is just a front-end to the linker. the compiler doesn't use the assembler. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 20:29:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 20:29:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3230 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 20:29:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3226 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 20:29:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 20:29:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EEFF19A2A; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:29:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from collyer.net (collyer.net [66.120.90.185]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 1E46B19A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:28:19 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: geoff@collyer.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020226112819.1E46B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 03:24:08 -0800 John Mashey (of AT&T then MIPS then SGI then MIPS and now Sensei Partners) gave talks at the University of Toronto in the 1980s on the MIPS architecture and why it would kill the evil 386 archtitecture. At one of his early talks, he talked about the lengths that the MIPS optimiser could go to because of customer demand (`some of our customers will perform hideous obscenities for another 5%' is the quote I recall, though it might have been 10%, it's been a while). He said that the MIPS C compiler at that time was 250,000 lines of source (presumably C). At a later talk, the size had grown to 500,000 lines. So I wouldn't be surprised if enormous amounts of code are expended on seemingly minor details. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 23:19:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 23:19:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5633 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 23:19:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5629 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 23:19:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 23:19:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6761E19A0D; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:19:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A638D199BF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:18:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:18:36 -0500 Again, and strongly, there was little effort made to make the Plan 9 C compilers generate good floating point code. I predict much less difference using normal, integer code - such as the kernel - which did receive some optimization attention. Also, the kernel spends most of its time in memmove and memset, both of which are written in assembler and therefore are not affected by the compiler. I doubt the quality of complation of the kernel has a minor effect on runtime of the compiler itself. Russ Cox points out that: the linux guys decided that the default floating-point precision should be 80-bit in-register precision but with 64-bit in-memory precision. i realize that this is sometimes desirable if you know what you're doing, but they made it the default. so code ends up behaving differently (usually incorrectly) based on what gcc registerizes and what overflows into memory. #include #include #include void main(void) { double x, y; x = sqrt(3.0); y = sqrt(3.0) - x; if(y) printf("buggered\n"); } -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 23:21:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 23:21:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5680 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 23:21:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5676 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 23:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 23:21:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3FF4519A33; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:21:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 009B119A0C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:20:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <807a8afd7bb1bf60ebcafe1adb3004b1@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:20:48 -0500 > Rob, can you say more about what 8c's shortcomings are in > floating point? Ken just didn't spend much time on it. A fair bit of effort was spent on integer code for most of the architectures, including x86. When you have finite time (unlike the GCC people, who have infinite people and forever to work on it, 8c was a one-man operation) you choose where to spend it. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 23:25:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 23:25:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5719 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 23:25:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5715 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 23:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 23:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D0BB19A62; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:25:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F39E619992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:24:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0203c3ac75cd0cbf6c419953cd7401cd@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:24:32 -0500 > Speed is really important, of course, but it's usually thought that > this is the reason why we want optimizing compilers. Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. Fancy optimizers have fancy bugs. I'd happily give up the 10% or 20% those 25,000 lines of code on the MIPS give me if I knew that would reduce the probability of bugs. On Plan 9, the code optimizer is enabled by default. It's been years since I turned it off (8c -N) to see if the optimizer was breaking my code, and much longer than that since it did. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 23:26:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 23:26:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5742 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 23:26:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5738 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 23:26:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 23:26:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E357A19A64; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:26:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id AA586199ED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:25:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8297906f5725d1b9598b12b35223f545@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:25:43 -0500 > Somehow I doubt 25,000 lines... As someone who's looked at MIPS's assembly-language code for FP support in the kernel, I don't doubt this at all. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Tue Feb 26 23:31:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Tue Feb 26 23:31:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5792 invoked by uid 1020); 26 Feb 2002 23:31:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5788 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 23:31:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 23:31:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 54D9019A2C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:31:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B8849199E3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:30:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:30:49 -0500 It's too early to be writing mail. In this: > I doubt the quality of complation of the kernel has a > minor effect on runtime of the compiler itself. I should have said 'major'. My point is that the compiler will not affect the efficiency of the kernel very much, as I hope the rest of the post explained better. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 00:01:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 00:01:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6157 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 00:01:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6153 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 00:01:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 00:01:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DD43D199BF; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:01:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A2A4B19A1C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:00:31 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:02:54 -0700 > The compile time using for the BSD/2.95/no test looks *really* low; > are we sure about that number? It's a very strange outlier, isn't it? > I'll mostly ignore that one, because it is *such* a surprise; GCC > isn't normally thought to be that fast, but hey, maybe it really is. > several more tests yield exactly the same results -- FBSD 4.5 w/ gcc2.95 takes about 18 seconds to compile. > A total curiosity is that running the Linux binaries under emulation > in BSD is *faster* than running the native BSD binaries. It's hard to > imagine that the BSD team specially optimized that case, does anyone > have any knowledge or guesses? > gcc 3.0 on FBSD was locally compiled and installed (as was noted in the explanations), had it been taken from a binary package it _must_ have been much faster (all we did was 'make; make install')... something else i forgot to mention: gcc 3.0 on linux (rpm install) complains of -m386 being deprecated (-m386 is part of the CFLAGS switches povray uses)... gcc3.0 on FBSD did not say anything about -m386... I find this very strange. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 00:28:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 00:28:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6476 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 00:28:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 6472 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 00:28:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 00:28:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0F55819A56; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:28:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cosym.net (peter.sys.9srv.net [64.7.3.116]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id CFE7C19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:18 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Line-In From: anothy@cosym.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020226152718.CFE7C19980@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:09 -0500 from audio(3): Audio data is a sequence of stereo samples, left sample first. Each sample is a 16 bit little-endian two's complement integer; the default sampling rate is 44.1 kHz. i'm not familiar with the term "cdr" as an audio format, but i'm guessing you're refering to the audio format on a CD. that's PCM, and yes, it's the same format you read/write on /dev/audio. // I've tried using lame to convert P9 /dev/audio data to mp3... one step at a time. can you get data from /dev/audio to start with? just try 'cat /dev/audio > /tmp/foo', yell into the mic some, and then kill the cat. the contents of /tmp/foo should be PCM audio, suitable for 'cat /tmp/foo > /dev/audio'. assuming you're getting audio data, are you sure lame is working? i had issues with it producing valid but garbage mp3 files. for my experiences, take a look at http://9srv.net/mpeg/ - the summary is that i use BladeEnc quite succesfully. the single line to compile it, and a binary in case you have problems, are available there. ã‚¢ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 01:06:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 01:06:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7038 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 01:06:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7034 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 01:06:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 01:06:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E9A631998C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:06:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc2-dale5-0-cust139.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.77.139]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 87E92199E3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 4745 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 16:04:59 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 16:04:59 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Message-Id: <20020226160457.60eea9fe.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:04:57 +0000 On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:02:54 -0700 "andrey mirtchovski" wrote: > had it been taken from a binary package it _must_ > have been much faster (all we did was 'make; make install')... I would expect the opposite (depending on the default optimisations you have set up for your compilation environment) The binary package may well be targetted to 486 to make sure that when you run it on your 486 it doesn't try to use Pentium or Pentium Pro instructions. I'm not totally sure but make; make install will surely do a configure to see what processor it's running on etc. M (who always compiles ports rather than installing packages) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 01:08:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 01:08:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7059 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 01:08:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7055 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 01:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 01:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1E45819A7E; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:08:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.31]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 704C719A75 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.bell-labs.com (ool-18bd0d-117.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.13.117]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with ESMTP id <0GS50091VE45AM@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:07:17 -0500 (EST) From: Sean Quinlan Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <3C7BB2B7.5287E965@research.bell-labs.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <807a8afd7bb1bf60ebcafe1adb3004b1@plan9.bell-labs.com> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:07:19 -0500 8c does almost no registerisation for floating point. The floating point stack is used as a stack; i.e. the code for y = y + x looks like FMOVD y+-16(SP),F0 FADDD x+-8(SP),F0 FMOVDP F0,y+-16(SP) even in the inner loops. If you care about floating point on the x86, you have to use a compiler that tries to treat the x86 floating point stack into a register file... this is not easy and even with a lot of effort and large amounts of hardware assistance, x86 floating point is still relatively slow. As rob said, ken never did this... on machines where the floating point unit uses a register file, ken does a lot better. seanq rob pike wrote: > > > Rob, can you say more about what 8c's shortcomings are in > > floating point? > > Ken just didn't spend much time on it. A fair bit of effort was spent > on integer code for most of the architectures, including x86. When > you have finite time (unlike the GCC people, who have infinite people > and forever to work on it, 8c was a one-man operation) you choose > where to spend it. > > -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 01:18:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 01:18:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7129 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 01:18:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7125 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 01:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 01:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 373AF19A5A; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:18:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9FDCA19A73 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fk5c-0002Mx-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:04:28 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Wilhelm B. Kloke" Message-ID: Organization: Unknown References: <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:02:05 GMT In article <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu>, andrey mirtchovski <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote: >> The compile time using for the BSD/2.95/no test looks *really* low; >> are we sure about that number? It's a very strange outlier, isn't it? >> I'll mostly ignore that one, because it is *such* a surprise; GCC >> isn't normally thought to be that fast, but hey, maybe it really is. >> > >several more tests yield exactly the same results -- FBSD 4.5 w/ >gcc2.95 takes about 18 seconds to compile. Surprise diminishes, when you take the difference between gcc2.95 and 2.96 into account (linux was tested with the latter). 2.96 is 3.00-beta (in fact, 2.96 was never recommended for use and made it into some Linux distributions only accidentally.) -- Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 01:37:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 01:37:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7291 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 01:37:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7287 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 01:37:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 01:37:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 537E0199B9; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:37:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id AC9C619A87 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 11:35:05 EST 2002 Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 11:35:04 EST 2002 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Line-In From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:35:03 -0500 i use this command line with lame (which i call games/mp3enc) and have no problems games/mp3enc -v -rx -S --preset cd $i $i.mp3 && rm $i somewhere on that line one of the flags swaps the byte order of the samples. /dev/audio and lame disagree about the byte order. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:26:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:26:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7696 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:26:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7692 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:26:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:26:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3DECE19A1C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:26:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 49AEC19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16flAG-0006Yi-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:20 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <0203c3ac75cd0cbf6c419953cd7401cd@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:14 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:46:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:46:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7896 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:46:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7892 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:46:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:46:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D3B4E19A0C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C048619A75 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03846 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:45:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202261745.MAA03846@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:14 GMT." <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:44:59 -0500 I guess I just don't see the point in investing a lot of time and effort into writing a really serious optimizer, Tom, if it's not really needed. I don't think that anyone is trying to use Plan 9 as a seriously fast number crunching platform, after all. Empirically, it's been shown that optimizers buy you roughly a factor of two in terms of speed increase for most benchmarks (cf. Pugh's comments on Probsting's law). While I'm not going to throw away that factor of two, I'm also not going to go so incredibly far out of my way to as to invest man years of effort in creating an optimizer that will give me just a few percent more in terms of performance, and certainly I'm not going to go out of my wy to build a compiler that optimizes a problem I'm not really all that concerned with (eg, floating point intensive applications). I'm not sure what your argument is, Tom; could you maybe post some data to back up your claim that an operating system compiled with an optimizing compiler (and, btw, the Plan 9 C compilers are optimizing compilers, they just don't break their necks optimizing...) is more than a few percent faster than one compiled with a non-optimizing compiler? Perhaps a literature search will give you a pointer to a reference paper that backs up your claims? Otherwise, it seems to me that this is just speculation on your part. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:47:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:47:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7904 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:47:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7900 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:47:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:47:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9479619A7F; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:47:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 46FA5199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04181 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:26 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Cross Received: (from cross@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA14863 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:26 -0500 (EST) Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. What are people's opinions on this? - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:47:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:47:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7911 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:47:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7907 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:47:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:47:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8102B19A81; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:47:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mail2.rol.it (mail2.rol.it [193.41.7.204]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 1742F19A65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: request@logos.net To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <20020226174633.1742F19A65@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Verba Volant Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:46:33 -0500 (EST) We have been requested to insert the following email address, "9fans@cse.psu.edu", in the Verba Volant Newsletter database. Through this daily service you will receive a quotation, selected from amongst the most celebrated philosophers, writers and poets of all time and translated into many languages and dialects by volunteers worldwide. If you would like to confirm your subscription to Verba Volant, please click on the following link: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.subscribe?lang=en&email=9fans@cse.psu.edu If you do not wish to click on the link, your subscription will be cancelled. Thank you for your time. Verba Volant Il nous a été demandé d'ajouter l'adresse électronique "9fans@cse.psu.edu" dans la liste des destinataires de Verba Volant, un service qui tous les jours vous adressera une citation sélectionnée parmi les œuvres des meilleurs philosophes, écrivains, poètes de tous les temps et traduite en de très nombreuses langues grâce à des volontaires du monde entier. Pour confirmer l'inscription à Verba Volant, veuillez vous connecter au lien suivant: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.subscribe?lang=fr&email=9fans@cse.psu.edu Si vous préférez ne pas cliquer sur le lien, vous ne recevrez rien. Merci dans tous les cas de nous avoir accordé quelques secondes. Verba Volant Se nos ha solicitado insertar la dirección de correo electrónico "9fans@cse.psu.edu" en el listado de envíos de Verba Volant, un servicio que diariamente le enviará citas elegidas entre los mejores filosofos, escritores, poetas, etc., traducidas a varios idiomas y dialectos. Dichas citas están traducidas por voluntarios que se conectan a nuestra web desde todo el mundo. Si quiere confirmar la suscripción a Verba Volant, le rogamos entre en: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.subscribe?lang=es&email=9fans@cse.psu.edu Si no entra en la dirección señalada no recibirá las citas. Muchas gracias por el tiempo que nos ha dedicado. Verba Volant Ci è stato chiesto di inserire l'indirizzo di posta elettronica "9fans@cse.psu.edu" nell’elenco dei destinatari di Verba Volant, un servizio che ogni giorno ti invierà una citazione scelta tra quelle dei migliori filosofi, scrittori, poeti di tutti i tempi e tradotta in moltissime lingue e dialetti grazie alla collaborazione di volontari da tutto il mondo. Se desideri confermare l'iscrizione, ti preghiamo di collegarti al seguente link: http://www.logos.net/owa-l/press.subscribe?lang=it&email=9fans@cse.psu.edu Nel caso preferissi non cliccare sul link, non riceverai nulla. Grazie comunque per i secondi che ci hai dedicato. Cordiali saluti. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:49:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:49:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 7937 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:49:14 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 7933 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:49:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:49:14 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EB1B19A7B; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:49:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu [131.215.43.204]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A1E8F19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix, from userid 2738) id 9D73634086; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@cse.psu.edu> id 47470F803; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:39 -0800 (PST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:14 GMT." <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> From: Quinn Dunkan Message-Id: <20020226174844.9D73634086@bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:39 -0800 > rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > > > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. > > Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. > > Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection > because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. I've always used gc-ed languages, and I've never had any problems due to buggy gc (except some surprising performance differences between cmucl on x86 and cmucl on everything else, since they use different gcs). Once they get the gc right they tend to leave it alone. On the other hand, though I hardly use C much (though I compile a lot of it), I have had weird behaviour under -O2, which went away when I removed it. The gcc people are always messing with the optimizer. That personal experience combined with reading docs that say things like "the loop unroller is buggy, so be careful when you use -O3" (and what's the deal with all this -O6 stuff? I thought -O3 was the "possible overkill, may slow down code more than speed it up" setting) has made me paranoid and now when the compiler segfaults or the program segfaults (often C generated by a compiler for another language, which is probably particularly strangely written), the first thing I do is remove -O. And it sometimes fixes the problem. For example, the sather compiler will segfault if compiled with -O. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:55:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:55:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8037 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:55:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8033 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:55:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:55:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 60C1519A6F; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:55:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9F0F519A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1QHkmpZ018811 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:46:48 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7BCBDC.D42F8735@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Verba Volant References: <20020226174633.1742F19A65@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:54:36 +0100 If this is any indication of the quality their 'service', well ... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:57:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:57:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8070 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:57:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8066 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:57:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:57:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A476619A86; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:57:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C31A419A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06559 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:56:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202261756.MAA06559@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Verba Volant In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:54:36 +0100." <3C7BCBDC.D42F8735@strakt.com> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:56:50 -0500 Hey, at least it's multilingual spam. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 02:59:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 02:59:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8081 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 02:59:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8077 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 02:59:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 02:59:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 117AA199ED; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:59:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A0EC319A84 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:58:26 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-uhzycouzfsbuzehinumzkbtfis" Message-Id: <20020226175826.A0EC319A84@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:00:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-uhzycouzfsbuzehinumzkbtfis Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On the other hand, though I hardly use C much (though I compile a lot of it), I > have had weird behaviour under -O2, which went away when I removed it. The gcc > people are always messing with the optimizer. That personal experience > combined with reading docs that say things like "the loop unroller is buggy, so > be careful when you use -O3" (and what's the deal with all this -O6 stuff? I > thought -O3 was the "possible overkill, may slow down code more than speed it > up" setting) has made me paranoid and now when the compiler segfaults or the > program segfaults (often C generated by a compiler for another language, which > is probably particularly strangely written), the first thing I do is remove -O. > And it sometimes fixes the problem. For example, the sather compiler will > segfault if compiled with -O. http://www.netlib.org/benchweb has several integer-intensive cpu benchmarks. i downloaded the tower of hanoi to try a few benchy-marks just to continue yesterday's tests. i gave up after finding out that the optimized fbsd ran slower than the unoptimized one (2.95).. same behaviour was observed with gcc3.0 on linux... i can only explain this with the recursive structure of the program... having such (weird?) results kind-of defeats the purpose of doing a benchmark... so i never looked at compiling it on p9 if anyone else is interested, the cpu section of the abovementioned web page has some more programs. i tried a few but didn't find anything interesting --upas-uhzycouzfsbuzehinumzkbtfis Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from acl.lanl.gov ([128.165.147.1]) by acl.lanl.gov; Tue Feb 26 10:50:12 MST 2002 Received: (qmail 2203163 invoked by uid 18927); 26 Feb 2002 10:50:12 -0700 Delivered-To: andrey@acl.lanl.gov Received: (qmail 2079077 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 10:49:15 -0700 Received: from mailrelay2.lanl.gov (128.165.5.47) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 10:49:15 -0700 Received: from mailproxy1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay2.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1QHnFA16173; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:49:15 -0700 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mailproxy1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1QHox216545; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:50:59 -0700 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6EB1B19A7B; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:49:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu [131.215.43.204]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A1E8F19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix, from userid 2738) id 9D73634086; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP for <9fans@cse.psu.edu> id 47470F803; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:39 -0800 (PST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:14 GMT." <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> From: Quinn Dunkan Message-Id: <20020226174844.9D73634086@bolivar.ugcs.caltech.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:48:39 -0800 > rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > > > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. > > Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. > > Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection > because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. I've always used gc-ed languages, and I've never had any problems due to buggy gc (except some surprising performance differences between cmucl on x86 and cmucl on everything else, since they use different gcs). Once they get the gc right they tend to leave it alone. On the other hand, though I hardly use C much (though I compile a lot of it), I have had weird behaviour under -O2, which went away when I removed it. The gcc people are always messing with the optimizer. That personal experience combined with reading docs that say things like "the loop unroller is buggy, so be careful when you use -O3" (and what's the deal with all this -O6 stuff? I thought -O3 was the "possible overkill, may slow down code more than speed it up" setting) has made me paranoid and now when the compiler segfaults or the program segfaults (often C generated by a compiler for another language, which is probably particularly strangely written), the first thing I do is remove -O. And it sometimes fixes the problem. For example, the sather compiler will segfault if compiled with -O. --upas-uhzycouzfsbuzehinumzkbtfis-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 03:02:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 03:02:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8124 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 03:02:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8120 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 03:02:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 03:02:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D64B819A7C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:02:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from sigint.cs.purdue.edu (sigint.cs.purdue.edu [128.10.2.82]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3092219A87 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by sigint.cs.purdue.edu (Postfix, from userid 118) id 7DA4D278C; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:00:57 -0500 (EST) From: splite@purdue.edu To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] p9/linux/fbsd compiler shootout Message-ID: <20020226130057.A8122@sigint.cs.purdue.edu> References: <20020226150031.A2A4B19A1C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from wb@vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de on Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 04:02:05PM +0000 X-Disclaimer: Any similarity to an opinion of Purdue is purely coincidental Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:00:57 -0500 On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 04:02:05PM +0000, Wilhelm B. Kloke wrote: > > (in fact, [gcc] 2.96 was never recommended for use and made it into some > Linux distributions only accidentally.) OT, but this isn't true. 2.96 is a Red Hat creation and they swear by it. Everyone else swears at it. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 03:02:28 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 03:02:28 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8131 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 03:02:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8127 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 03:02:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 03:02:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 47A2D19A8D; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:02:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4272219A89 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07515 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:01:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202261801.NAA07515@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Dan Cross Subject: [9fans] Weird problem. Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:01:42 -0500 I'm looking at a Plan 9 machine where ps(1) keeps hanging; in particular, it hangs while trying to open one of the status files under /proc/*. (eg, open("/proc/$somepid/status", OREAD); hangs). Looking at the source code to devproc.c, I see that one of the first things procopen() does is lock p->debug once it finds the proctable entry for the process that particular file is associated with. My guess, based only on vague feeling and nothing more substantial, is that there exists some sort of deadlock with p->debug. Is there a way to see what locks a process holds, short of instrumenting the kernel to do so? I'd hate to simply reboot the machine, since I think that the error state would be difficult to recreate, and I'd really like to understand what's going on. Alternatively, if anyone's seen this before and knows what's up, that'd be great. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 04:06:39 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 04:06:39 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 8732 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 04:06:39 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 8728 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 04:06:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 04:06:38 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E95B419A92; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:06:24 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 26DD419A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:05:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-rwndazgardgzomzstagwdwzhlo" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:05:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-rwndazgardgzomzstagwdwzhlo Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, it's not really the same. I've had odd performance changes when garbage collectors decide to do their thing. However, they've never made correct code not work. However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler writers to trade off possible incorrect code generation against probable speed gains. I've been burned numerous times by upping the optimization level in compilers including gcc. This is not a new development. It was just as true 30 years ago with the fortran and PL1 compilers I used. --upas-rwndazgardgzomzstagwdwzhlo Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 12:26:18 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 12:26:16 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5156219980; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:26:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 49AEC19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16flAG-0006Yi-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:20 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <0203c3ac75cd0cbf6c419953cd7401cd@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:13:14 GMT rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. --upas-rwndazgardgzomzstagwdwzhlo-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 04:41:35 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 04:41:35 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9083 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 04:41:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9079 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 04:41:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 04:41:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EFFFA19A55; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:41:04 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from honk.eecs.harvard.edu (honk.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.101]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6D3E219A65 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by honk.eecs.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 15BF53C136; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:40:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:40:23 -0500 From: William Josephson To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020226144023.A46570@honk.eecs.harvard.edu> References: <0203c3ac75cd0cbf6c419953cd7401cd@plan9.bell-labs.com> <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net>; from tb+usenet@becket.net on Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 05:13:14PM +0000 X-No-archive: yes Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 05:13:14PM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > rob@plan9.bell-labs.com (rob pike) writes: > > > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. > > Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. > > Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection > because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. No, if that were the case, I'd be forced to conclude that those who write garbage collectors are significantly better hackers than the people who write compilers, which I rather doubt. Last year someone across the hall spent a long time tracking down completely bogus code produced by gcc on the mips target -- I think it turned out to be a bug in loop unrolling, but I don't recall for sure. I wish I still had the thirty or forty line C program that gcc couldn't produce valid alpha assembler for. I have had problems with commercial compilers, too, of course. The fact of the matter is that I have had far more trouble from optimizing compilers than from garbage collectors, whether I've written them or someone else has. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 04:48:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 04:48:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9149 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 04:48:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9145 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 04:48:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 04:48:22 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B7ED19A2F; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:48:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ducky.net (ducky.net [199.26.172.91]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28C2D19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mike@localhost) by ducky.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id g1QJlJ043207 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike) From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <200202261947.g1QJlJ043207@ducky.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) From 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Tue Feb 26 11:06:34 2002 From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:05:49 -0500 >However, it seems to be an >accepted consequence amongst compiler writers to trade off >possible incorrect code generation against probable speed >gains. I've been burned numerous times by upping the optimization >level in compilers including gcc. This is not a new development. >It was just as true 30 years ago with the fortran and PL1 compilers >I used. I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the compiler writers at fault in many of these cases. Certainly there are compiler and optimizer bugs, and probably the more optimization you apply the more likely you are to tickle these bugs. You can blame the compiler for those. But, at least in the case of C, there are numerous cases where people write code that is semantically undefined according to the detailed rules of the C standard, but does what they want under particular compilers or levels of optimization. (E.g. how many of you have assumed that local variables not declared volatile will hold their values across a longjmp?) So who to blame? The compiler writer, who assumes the code being compiled is standards-conforming? The standards committee, who get to decide which programming idioms will have defined behavior? The programmer, who often doesn't really understand the rules of the language? The authors of programming textbooks, who often downplay or omit these issues entirely? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 05:26:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 05:26:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9416 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 05:26:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9412 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 05:26:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 05:26:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFBF619A65; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:26:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from new-york.lcs.mit.edu (new-york.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.4.65]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5DBAB19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (24-6-177.wireless.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.6.177]) by new-york.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with SMTP id g1QKPYk18424 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:25:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8662d293439a68bc0c877a922990e8c0@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:25:33 -0500 > > Ten percent buys you, what, a couple of weeks of Moore's Law? I'm not > > against fast compilers - I'm actually rather impressed by good > > compilers - but I do fret about optimizing compilers breaking my code. > > Oh, of course, but that's a matter of writing correct code. No, it's also a matter of not having buggy optimizers. > Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection > because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. And this is a matter of not having buggy garbage collectors. In both case you are assuming that the optimizer/garbage collector itself has no bugs, which is not always a great assumption. In both cases it's a case of balancing the benefit you gain from the chance of a negative effect due to bugs in the optimizer/garbage collector. If having ten times as many optimizations comes at the cost of having ten times as many optimizer bugs, then I'd think twice about it. In the optimizer case, the number of confirmed gcc optimizer bugs at any given time seems to be fairly high, high enough that reasonable people can run into them with annoying frequency, especially on non-x86 platforms. (I know of an undergrad OS course that was using the latest gcc MIPS compiler and ran into many of these; in that case, though, there was no hope: turning off optimizations just selected a different set of code generation bugs.) Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 05:29:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 05:29:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9426 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 05:29:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9422 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 05:29:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 05:29:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9DC5719A71; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:29:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id BBB9F19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:28:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-pujpubbhxmwbbygxaaljuullxb" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:28:53 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-pujpubbhxmwbbygxaaljuullxb Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're right, there's plenty of blame to go around. More than once I was hoist on my own petard with C aliasing and saved by lots of 'volatile's. Not surprisingly I was screwed more than once by tail recursion optimizations on Sparc's (fun with register files) by lcc. Ditto with instruction ordering on MIPS. In all cases turning off optimization fixed the problem, regardless of where the fault lay. Hence, I can understand Rob's worry about optimization being an option rather than a requirement. Programmers tend to know that they are treading where lesser mortals fear to go when they up the optimization level. Especially with C, we are trained largely by what works and what doesn't. Moving from the VAX to the 68020 uncovered lots of null references that were going unnoticed in the past. Ditto for other coding outside the spec. If nothing slaps you down, you get complacent. Hence, we tend to accept the resulting errors and just back off optimization when it fails. We often don't report the bug because 1) not knowing the compiler writer, its often hard to say, ``When I use the -O256 flag, my 150,000 line program acts funny'' and expect to get any satisfaction. 2) we're afraid after 2 weeks of debugging it'll turn out to be our fault 3) once your code has been rewritten by a machine, its often incredibly hard to figure out what's broken 4) its not my job, man If things don't make it through with optimization turned off, then we report bugs because then we know its not our fault and have no recourse (except the first day trying to program around it). Hence, optimizing compilers tend to self select for retaining bugs. --upas-pujpubbhxmwbbygxaaljuullxb Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 14:48:24 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 14:48:23 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 844A919A80; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:48:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ducky.net (ducky.net [199.26.172.91]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 28C2D19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mike@localhost) by ducky.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id g1QJlJ043207 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike) From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <200202261947.g1QJlJ043207@ducky.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:47:19 -0800 (PST) From 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Tue Feb 26 11:06:34 2002 From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:05:49 -0500 >However, it seems to be an >accepted consequence amongst compiler writers to trade off >possible incorrect code generation against probable speed >gains. I've been burned numerous times by upping the optimization >level in compilers including gcc. This is not a new development. >It was just as true 30 years ago with the fortran and PL1 compilers >I used. I'm not convinced that it's necessarily the compiler writers at fault in many of these cases. Certainly there are compiler and optimizer bugs, and probably the more optimization you apply the more likely you are to tickle these bugs. You can blame the compiler for those. But, at least in the case of C, there are numerous cases where people write code that is semantically undefined according to the detailed rules of the C standard, but does what they want under particular compilers or levels of optimization. (E.g. how many of you have assumed that local variables not declared volatile will hold their values across a longjmp?) So who to blame? The compiler writer, who assumes the code being compiled is standards-conforming? The standards committee, who get to decide which programming idioms will have defined behavior? The programmer, who often doesn't really understand the rules of the language? The authors of programming textbooks, who often downplay or omit these issues entirely? --upas-pujpubbhxmwbbygxaaljuullxb-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 06:09:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 06:09:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9777 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 06:09:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9773 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 06:09:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 06:09:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B036119A85; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:09:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 70A1919A90 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:08:45 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020226210845.70A1919A90@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:05:37 0000 > Your concern reminds me of people who are scared of garbage collection > because they think it will have a bug and free live memory. this seems to me to ignore the complexity of both theory and code in the two cases; i'd have said they were significantly different by inspection. for instance, i might well consider working hard to prove (formally or informally) the bulk of a garbage collector; for non-trivial language i don't think i'd attempt more than proving correct (or arguing the correctness of) some of the theoretical foundations and abstract algorithms of an optimising compiler. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 06:36:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 06:36:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 9968 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 06:36:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 9964 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 06:36:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 06:36:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C309319A88; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:36:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc2-dale5-0-cust139.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.77.139]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id A21C919A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10103 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 21:34:57 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 21:34:57 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-Id: <20020226213451.56e87b33.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:34:51 +0000 Okay, I'm no compiler writer or even very proficient C coder but all this talk of turning optimizations off concerns me. Not because of the threat of "badly" generated code but because the chip makers (well Intel is the only one I really read about) are pushing the responsibility for optimization out of the silicon and into the compiler. (providing I understand what I read!) In my minimal contact with C I've regarded optimizations with scorn, because like disk compression schemes a lá DoubleSpace, my first encounters were tainted by failure. All optimizations did then (MS C ver 3 on win3.1 i think) was crash quickly. Does anybody know how runtime optimizations such as those in the Crusoe chip fair at this? If optimization is tricky at compile time sounds like doing it at runtime must be hairy. Has anyone even tried to run plan9 on a Crusoe? M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 07:08:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 07:08:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10165 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 07:08:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10161 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 07:08:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 07:08:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6978019A7A; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:08:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from chiark.greenend.org.uk (chiark.greenend.org.uk [212.22.195.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D0ACE19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chiark.greenend.org.uk) [127.0.0.1] (theoh) by chiark.greenend.org.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16fpkn-0006l0-00 (Debian); Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:07:21 +0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Cc: theoh@chiark.greenend.org.uk Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:34:51 GMT." <20020226213451.56e87b33.matt@proweb.co.uk> References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> <20020226213451.56e87b33.matt@proweb.co.uk> From: Theo Honohan Message-Id: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:06:42 +0000 Matt H wrote: > > Does anybody know how runtime optimizations such as those in the Crusoe > chip fair at this? If optimization is tricky at compile time sounds like > doing it at runtime must be hairy. Has anyone even tried to run plan9 on a > Crusoe? This is quite an interesting issue. It's actually a lot easier to write a clever interpreter (like the Crusoe chip + software) that optimizes code at runtime than it is to write an offline "binary translator". The most obvious examples are the case of runtime code generation, or self-modifying code; your static analysis of the code you're translating has to be smart enough to see that coming. An interpreter that recognizes and optimizes chunks of code that get called repeatedly is much easier to write. Incidentally, if your job involves having to explain these issues to your boss, it's time to go... :-( From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 07:18:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 07:18:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10241 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 07:18:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10237 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 07:18:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 07:18:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1122419A89; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:18:12 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C7A0919A87 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:17:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <438029bcf8bf1501dcacd3e282ae8e22@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:17:20 -0500 On Tue Feb 26 16:36:18 EST 2002, matt@proweb.co.uk wrote: > Has anyone even tried to run plan9 on a Crusoe? Not personally, but I know people who have done it. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 08:38:28 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 08:38:28 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10857 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 08:38:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10853 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 08:38:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 08:38:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8831119A75; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:38:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D77A319A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:37:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1499c540356624db8d327cd95edaadef@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: "Russ Cox" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Weird problem. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:37:13 -0500 If you run acid -k, you can get a kernel stack trace for the process doing the open. That will tell you what exactly is blocking. p->debug is a QLock, and unfortunately they don't keep track of who is currently holding it. The kernel trace might suggest where to go next though. grep /proc/ /proc/*/fd might be useful too. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 09:22:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 09:22:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 11567 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 09:22:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 11563 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 09:22:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 09:22:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 702B5199BC; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:22:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from ducky.net (ducky.net [199.26.172.91]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DD4E319A73 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mike@localhost) by ducky.net (8.11.6/8.11.4) id g1R0L0s43681 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike) From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <200202270021.g1R0L0s43681@ducky.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: <20020226213451.56e87b33.matt@proweb.co.uk> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) >Okay, I'm no compiler writer or even very proficient C coder but all this >talk of turning optimizations off concerns me. Not because of the threat >of "badly" generated code but because the chip makers (well Intel is the >only one I really read about) are pushing the responsibility for >optimization out of the silicon and into the compiler. (providing I >understand what I read!) Intel will live to regret this. It's one thing to design a processor that provides support for numerous compiler optimizations; it's quite another to design a processor that *requires* them *all* to get even adequate performance on a broad spectrum of code. Anybody want to port 8c and Plan 9 to the Itanium? (Ok, you can all stop laughing...) The idea that "hardware/software co-design" is Good has to rank among the great fallacies of computer science and the computing industry in the last two decades. It may allow elegant solutions to isolated problems, but problems are never isolated. Eventually either the hardware or the software will need to be replaced, and the more cross-dependencies there are the harder this will be. Economically it's also really stupid: you are limiting your customers to the *intersection* of those who like your hardware and those who like your software. However they might curse the oddities of the x86 ISA, I am sure the Plan 9 developers are grateful for the fact that all x86 implementations are designed with a goal of getting at least adeqaute performance without recompiling. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 11:39:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 11:39:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 14948 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 11:39:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14944 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 11:39:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 11:39:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 58BDE19A02; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:39:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EE80019A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 21:38:12 EST 2002 Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 21:38:11 EST 2002 Message-ID: <20d59ff88bf1e936e6c0807fb1a2d4e1@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:38:10 -0500 > Intel will live to regret this. Too bad the other processor makers will be dead. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 12:00:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 12:00:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15575 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 12:00:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15570 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 12:00:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 12:00:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id F023719A80; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:00:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from gsyc.escet.urjc.es (gsyc064.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.64]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 68BCE19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from nanonic.hilbert.space (80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12]) by gsyc.escet.urjc.es (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id AAA06851 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:59:29 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: gsyc.escet.urjc.es: Host 80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12] claimed to be nanonic.hilbert.space Received: from paurea by nanonic.hilbert.space with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16frUp-0000Gp-00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:58:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15484.8514.796885.10253@nanonic.hilbert.space> From: paurea@gsyc.escet.urjc.es To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu>:Dan Cross's message of 12:46:26 Tuesday,26 February 2002 References: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 20.7.2 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:58:58 +0100 Dan Cross writes: > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > What are people's opinions on this? > I think this is a very little community and splitting it is not a good idea. Also I like to be able to read 9fans at different places using the news. -- Saludos, Gorka "Curiosity sKilled the cat" From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 12:05:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 12:05:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 15738 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 12:05:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 15734 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 12:05:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 12:05:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 77FFE19A68; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:05:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 3A2EC19A68 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 22:04:45 EST 2002 Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([141.154.234.126]) by plan9; Tue Feb 26 22:04:44 EST 2002 Message-ID: <2ebc9f0bb93db277f09c485438e3dde2@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:04:43 -0500 > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > What are people's opinions on this? This seems to come up every year or so. I don't really understand the argument -- since they are one and the same how can they have very different spirits? I like the facts that there is only one place and that I don't have to use my primitive News reader to read it. Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 13:42:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 13:42:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 18936 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 13:42:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 18932 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 13:42:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 13:42:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8DFBA19A78; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:42:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B8BC219A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA26257 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:41:16 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Message-ID: <20020227064113.A26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu>; from Dan Cross on Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:46:26PM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:41:14 +0200 On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:46:26PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > What are people's opinions on this? > I have no access to Usenet News and in general prefer the opt-in feature of mailing lists. But I have provided mail-to-news gateways in the past because the underlying NetNews system is, in my opinion, better suited to tracking messages and subject threads. For 9fans, I think the present approach is quite reasonable and would not be improved by the obvious change. There may well be some other change that would improve matters, but I don't know what that is likely to be. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 15:53:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 15:53:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 22451 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 15:53:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 22447 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 15:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 15:53:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BA96519A87; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:53:14 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from athena.sd.ca.us (204-210-5-98.san.rr.com [204.210.5.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4B3F319980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from san.rr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by athena.sd.ca.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1R6sNx27898 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:54:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> From: Eric Dorman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:54:23 -0800 Who said something about feeding the troll? Hehe. I'm in a benchmarky mood since I'm doing the same thing in baselining our project code in my day job. Anyway here's a sort-of integer-ish comparison: Test case is the ancient Little Smalltalk v3. The benchmark is running the compiled interpreter on multiple iterations of the test suite. All tests passed (such as they are :) ). This is mostly indexing, switches and indirections. FP is also a test case but the impact of the bytecode interpreter is far more significant. On Plan9, the interpreter use bio(2) so compiles directly under 8c rather than ape (a port done by myself). There are no other changes from the Linux code. For gcc the environment was RH-Linux-7.2 running w/o gui. The hardware was a 2xP-III @ 1.0Ghz. Plan9 netbooted onto the same hardware. I/O was not tested. The application isin't multithreaded so any SMP overhead is the OS's own fault :) .. gcc-3.0.3 and -2.96 were used, with no significant differences in the results (except as noted). -mcpu=i386 was used for all gcc's (note 'i386' vice '386'; see gcc -dumpspecs). With other interpreters (like Squeak Smalltalk, which gnu-ifies the interpreter to exploit gcc-isims) playing with -mcpu can get you 2-5% but there is a lot of coupling between architecture, -mcpu, -O level and etc. YMMV. Generally gcc -O was 3% avg faster than 8c for all iteration sizes. gcc -O2 was 7% avg faster than 8c for all sizes. Higher -O levels had no significant impact. 8c -N was 17% slower than 8c. Oddly gcc-2.96 was 33% slower than gcc -O. gcc-3.0.3 was better, 13% slower than gcc-3.0.3 -O. Time-to-compile is hard to compare since Linux runs on the local ATA100 disk while Plan9 runs from a fileserver on switched 100BaseT, and there really isin't all that much code to compile :) Anyway gcc-3.0.3 clocks in at ~ 3.2 secs ( -j1 ) while Plan9 compiles in about a second (NPROC=1). I don't have much faith in these numbers, however; too much variance. Then again, gcc-3.0.3 takes > 7minutes to compile itself (all stages plus library) -j2, but 8c takes a few seconds at NPROC=2. My experiences with gcc have led me to put little faith in the stage[12] exercise as a verification tool. IMHO the real deal is whether it's fast enough to do what you want it to do. No doubt 8c would benefit if it had the same zillions of both paid and unpaid hours gcc has, but that's not saying anything earth-shattering; for this particular app it does reasonably well, IMO, given the level of effort put into it. If somebody wants 8c to go faster then they are welcome to turn the crank to make it happen.... Regards, Eric. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 16:18:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 16:18:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23225 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 16:18:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23221 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 16:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 16:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B864419980; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:18:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from oxe.cs.umu.se (oxe.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.14]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0D2CF19A84 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from peppar.cs.umu.se (rfc1413 says ath@peppar.cs.umu.se [130.239.40.13]) by oxe.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11429 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:17:19 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (rfc1413 says ath@localhost) by peppar.cs.umu.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07370 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:17:18 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: peppar.cs.umu.se: ath owned process doing -bs From: Tomas To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:17:18 +0100 (MET) On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 at 12:46pm, Dan Cross wrote: > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus > how many people are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that > comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have very different spirits, and > should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. What are > people's opinions on this? I subscribe to both 9fans and comp.os.plan9, and have my newsreader set up to kill any message with [9fans] in the subject line. This leaves me with less than one message per week to read in comp.os.plan9, and it's usually a message that I have already read in 9fans but for some reason the mail->news gateway hasn't added the [9fans] tag to it, or, perhaps more likely, the person who posted it sent it to both 9fans and comp.os.plan9. So unless my newsfeed for comp.os.plan9 is bad and I'm missing lots of posts, I can't understand where this idea of different spirits comes from, since as far as I can see it's virtually the same discussions in both forums. I say don't divorce the two. /Tomas - now, if only I could get my mouse working in Plan9... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 18:14:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 18:14:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26201 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 18:14:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26197 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 18:14:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 18:14:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1DA10199E3; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:14:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 57B0A19A69 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:13:30 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? From: Fco.J.Ballesteros MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20020227091330.57B0A19A69@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:13:27 +0100 Please, keep them together ☺. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 18:29:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 18:29:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 26428 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 18:29:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 26424 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 18:29:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 18:29:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 312DD19A74; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:29:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AF99C199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id g1R9S8B01553 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:28:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1R9S8P04900 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:28:08 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202270928.g1R9S8P04900@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg Subject: Re: [9fans] compilers - was GUI toolkit for Plan 9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: 2UrgxVOcMgt6dBgZtVoJBw== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:28:08 +0100 (MET) > Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > From: Mike Haertel > Intel will live to regret this. Last time (yesterday, but I am unable to find the link) I read about 'new' chips (ie 64-bit chips for general purpose computing) the conclusion was: Alpha: very good, but but dead since the new owner Intel will not develop it. Mips: good, but but dead since it has been re-targeted for embedded/games. PowerPC: good, but dead since it is already too complex Sparc: middeling, but dead since Sun does not have the money to develop next generation Itanium: the only game in town (apart from what AMD will/might do, if they can afford) So, basically, Intel might regret it, but they will be the only one alive. > The idea that "hardware/software co-design" is Good has to rank > among the great fallacies of computer science and the computing > industry in the last two decades. It may allow elegant solutions > to isolated problems, but problems are never isolated. Eventually > either the hardware or the software will need to be replaced, and > the more cross-dependencies there are the harder this will be. > Economically it's also really stupid: you are limiting your customers > to the *intersection* of those who like your hardware and those who > like your software. Lets assume that Intel limits its customers to 1. This one beeing Microsoft. Do you still think that all other customers will continue to stay away? bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:18:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:18:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27368 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27364 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:18:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2533C19A05; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:18:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A4326199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g11D-0001co-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:03 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87lmdgylid.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <87664kgoie.fsf@becket.becket.net>, <200202261745.MAA03846@math.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:07:28 GMT cross@math.psu.edu (Dan Cross) writes: > ...Tom... Dan has this annoying habit of refusing to address me by my name (despite having been asked on numerous occasions to do so). Since his goal is apparently to be offensive, I'm not going to bother reading or responding to messages from him which continue to perpetrate the offense. I was always taught that it was a minimal human courtesy to address people by their names. I only mention this because I don't want someone to think that the reason I ignore such messages is because I don't have anything to say to them on content. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:18:27 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:18:27 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27375 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27371 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:18:26 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8243D19A8F; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:18:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0E6DB199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g11C-0001cc-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: emerth@telusplanet.net Message-ID: Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK References: <3C7B1C9A.7276C679@telusplanet.net> Subject: [9fans] N/P - Re: help: boot problem after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:06:58 GMT In article <3C7B1C9A.7276C679@telusplanet.net>, I wrote: >Hi there, > >Can anyone suggest a solution to this problem? But the next morning I found comp.os.plan9 archive, and some past posts on the same issue. I can't imagine but the partition table might be messed up, hehehe. What one gets for installing strange new OSs late at night. Sorry for posting without doing a properly thorough search for answers. EM From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:18:32 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:18:32 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27382 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:31 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27378 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:18:31 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B1C2A19A9A; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:18:28 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2A99419A05 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g11C-0001cW-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Don Message-ID: <8f6cf824.0202261232.6dd646e0@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <20020226152718.CFE7C19980@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Line-In Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:06:44 GMT > i'm not familiar with the term "cdr" as an audio format, but i'm > guessing you're refering to the audio format on a CD. that's PCM, > and yes, it's the same format you read/write on /dev/audio. > Right on. I got the term "cdr" from the 'sox' manpage. > // I've tried using lame to convert P9 /dev/audio data to mp3... > > one step at a time. can you get data from /dev/audio to start > with? just try 'cat /dev/audio > /tmp/foo', yell into the mic some, > and then kill the cat. the contents of /tmp/foo should be PCM > audio, suitable for 'cat /tmp/foo > /dev/audio'. > Of course. > assuming you're getting audio data, are you sure lame is working? > i had issues with it producing valid but garbage mp3 files. for my > experiences, take a look at http://9srv.net/mpeg/ - the summary > is that i use BladeEnc quite succesfully. the single line to compile > it, and a binary in case you have problems, are available there. > ? Apparently the problem was that LAME and sox were not working. Though, I find it odd, since, every file made on Linux/BSD will translate fine with LAME/sox on my FreeBSD machine. :| That is why I thought the problem was my understanding of the audio file format. Every mp3 file produced on Plan 9 ended up as pure garbage, though, a valid mp3 file was generated. Once I tried bladeenc on plan9 everything turned out sweet as cake ;) Thanks, Don (north_) http://www.7f.no-ip.com/ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:18:40 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:18:40 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27389 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:40 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27385 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:18:39 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:18:39 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7766B19A93; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:18:37 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 487E8199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g11B-0001cQ-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Roger Peppe Message-ID: <1014749934.29779.0.nnrp-13.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:06:23 GMT > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > What are people's opinions on this? i read it by email, but have to respond via usenet these days due to the broken mail server at cse.psu.edu. i don't see how they could have different spirits when they they've always been (more-or-less) the same thing. whether they *should* be different is another question. personally i don't read usenet any more, so if they were split, the mailing list is the one i'd continue to read (but i'd be unable to post to it, which would be annoying). rog. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:19:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:19:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27403 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:19:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27399 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:19:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:19:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A1CD419A95; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:19:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E8C7719A8C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g11C-0001ci-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:07:13 GMT presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes: > However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler > writers to trade off possible incorrect code generation against > probable speed gains. I've never heard someone say that, actually. Perhaps you could give a citation from a compiler writer who said "yeah, this generates incorrect code, but hey, it runs fast!"? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:28:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:28:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27559 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:28:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27555 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D9D5E19A8C; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:28:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7194419A73 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:27:05 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227102706.7194419A73@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:26:45 +0100 Calm down Tom, we all know you always have interesting things to say. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:30:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:30:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27603 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:30:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27599 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:30:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:30:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2A9F419A9B; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:30:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E5C7819A94 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA26861 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:29:34 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020227122932.M26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net>; from Thomas Bushnell, BSG on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:07:13AM +0000 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:29:33 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:07:13AM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes: > > > However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler > > writers to trade off possible incorrect code generation against > > probable speed gains. > > I've never heard someone say that, actually. Perhaps you could give a > citation from a compiler writer who said "yeah, this generates > incorrect code, but hey, it runs fast!"? That's being intentionally obtuse. Adding code to a computer program increases the probability of its being incorrect. Prove me wrong. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:38:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:38:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27703 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:38:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27699 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:38:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:38:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D874D19A57; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:38:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5BA8119A9C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g1DS-0001yB-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:21:42 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Anthony Mandic Message-ID: <3C7C93B2.4C52E98E@start.com.au> Organization: Mandic Consulting Pty. Ltd. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu>, Subject: [9fans] Re: [9 fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:21:20 GMT Tomas wrote: > I subscribe to both 9fans and comp.os.plan9, and have my > newsreader set up to kill any message with [9fans] in the subject > line. The only problem with that is you don't then catch any reply posts (since these adopt the same subject line). I've added a space in this one to bypass your filter and allow you to see it. Or do newsgroup posts somehow get sent to the list as well? [Moderator's note: Yes, the newsgroup posts are injected into the plan9 mailing list. This *doesn't* blow up in an endless loop when the same article on the mailing list come to be re-injected into the News system. The News software knows it has seen the Message-ID and discards the article.] > So unless my newsfeed for comp.os.plan9 is bad and I'm missing > lots of posts, I can't understand where this idea of different > spirits comes from, since as far as I can see it's virtually the > same discussions in both forums. I read the newsgroup since I dislike to receive email from mailing lists. -am © 2002 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:38:25 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:38:25 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27710 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:38:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27706 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:38:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:38:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0737E19A96; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:38:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A841519A9F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g1Cr-0001x2-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:21:05 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:36 GMT edorman@san.rr.com (Eric Dorman) writes: > IMHO the real deal is whether it's fast enough to do what you want > it to do. No doubt 8c would benefit if it had the same zillions > of both paid and unpaid hours gcc has, but that's not saying > anything earth-shattering; for this particular app it does reasonably > well, IMO, given the level of effort put into it. If somebody > wants 8c to go faster then they are welcome to turn the crank > to make it happen.... Sure, GCC has available way more person-hours to try and get every last bit of improvement out of the generated code, and 8c just doesn't have that much time available. I think Dan Cross is entirely right in suggesting that such speed improvements might not be worth the effort it would take to put them into 8c. But that's only an argument against adding gobs of hairy optimization to 8c; it's not an argument for why GCC is somehow *bad* for having such optimizations. Indeed, it's really an argument for why dropping 8c is the best thing to do! But then, 8c does really have a great advantage in speed-of-compilation. So both compilers are doing useful things. Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages gobs of people to work on it. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:42:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:42:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27842 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:42:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27838 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:42:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:42:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A188819992; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:42:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 79CBA19AA3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g1Cq-0001ww-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:21:04 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87adtvxs06.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <2ebc9f0bb93db277f09c485438e3dde2@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:24 GMT rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com (Russ Cox) writes: > This seems to come up every year or so. > I don't really understand the argument -- > since they are one and the same how can > they have very different spirits? I believe the problem is that "9fans" (according to its name) is for fans of Plan 9. Whereas comp.os.FOO is for both fans of FOO, people who are skeptical about FOO, people who want to understand both strengths *and* weaknesses of FOO, and so forth. Sometimes there are attempts to say "such and such is inappropriate on comp.os.plan9, because it is for 9fans only", or other things similar to that. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:42:24 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:42:24 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27850 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:42:24 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27846 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:42:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:42:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B26E119AA5; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:42:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2C706199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g1C9-0001vR-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:21 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: watercloud Message-ID: <35ef49e9.0202261945.7715d897@posting.google.com> Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <35ef49e9.0202201813.44689baf@posting.google.com>, , <8f6cf824.0202251206.2317297e@posting.google.com> Subject: [9fans] Re: Run Plan9 Problem On Virtual PC __please help me Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:12 GMT Thank you very much! Now my plan9 boot successfully ^_* Don wrote in message news:<8f6cf824.0202251206.2317297e@posting.google.com>... > > Nothing is wrong with your Virtual PC. > > Precisely the same happens on an actual machine. > > > > IIRC north_ came with a workaround a month or two ago. > > Search the archives. > Ja, apparently this isn't just a 486 problem, though, I've > never been able to reproduce it on anything but 486. > Heres a link to the quick hack: > http://blessedchildren.virtualave.net/plan9/486.html > Don (north_) > http://www.7f.no-ip.com From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:47:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:47:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 27904 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:47:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 27900 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:47:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:47:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 00D8519A9D; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:47:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id CA57F19A9D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:46:07 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227104607.CA57F19A9D@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:45:56 +0100 : But that's only an argument against adding gobs of hairy optimization : to 8c; it's not an argument for why GCC is somehow *bad* for having : such optimizations. Indeed, it's really an argument for why dropping Once good thing of 8c/8l as they are today is that it's far more easy to port them that it is to port gcc. IMHO, this is mostly due to the fact that they are quite simple. So, I'd consider the complexity increase of 8c as a thing to consider before actually `improving' it. If it gets a bit better but the price to pay is to make it less simple to port/change, I'd think twice. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:52:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:52:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28019 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:52:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28015 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:52:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:52:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B8CA19AA6; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E5B6619A9F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA26910 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:51:19 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net>; from Thomas Bushnell, BSG on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:36AM +0000 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:51:19 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:36AM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is > pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages > gobs of people to work on it. > "Incidentally", he says! Licence to bloat? On the NetBSD mailing lists we have a saying: "If you want Linux, you know where to find it." Now please go away. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:53:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:53:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28036 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:53:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28032 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:53:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:53:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 69A7119AA3; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:53:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C32AC19A73 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA26919 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:52:27 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Message-ID: <20020227125224.O26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <2ebc9f0bb93db277f09c485438e3dde2@plan9.bell-labs.com> <87adtvxs06.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <87adtvxs06.fsf@becket.becket.net>; from Thomas Bushnell, BSG on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:24AM +0000 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:52:25 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:24AM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > Sometimes there are attempts to say "such and such is inappropriate on > comp.os.plan9, because it is for 9fans only", or other things similar > to that. It's OK, we have a moderator . ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 19:58:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 19:58:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28120 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 19:58:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28116 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 19:58:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 19:58:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D70C719AAA; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:58:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.46]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B964119A98 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id g1RAvwZc013889 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1RAvwP04607 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:58 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202271057.g1RAvwP04607@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: Jha7vwhhNyGdVPcHjb2WWQ== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:58 +0100 (MET) > Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" > > presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes: > > > However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler > > writers to trade off _possible_ incorrect code generation against > > _probable_ speed gains. > > I've never heard someone say that, actually. Perhaps you could give a > citation from a compiler writer who said "yeah, this generates > incorrect code, but hey, it runs fast!"? I have added _ to emphasize two words that makes the idea clearer. Ie, it not a question of generating incorrect code, but generating code that might be incorrect (you know: hard to debug/test for all possible circumstances...). bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 20:11:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 20:11:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 28322 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 20:11:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 28318 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 20:11:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 20:11:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B9DE319A98; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:11:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 41E8B19A73 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA26964 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:10:08 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020227131002.P26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <200202271057.g1RAvwP04607@cbe.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <200202271057.g1RAvwP04607@cbe.ericsson.se>; from Bengt Kleberg on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:58AM +0100 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:10:03 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:58AM +0100, Bengt Kleberg wrote: > > > > presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com writes: > > > > > However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler > > > writers to trade off _possible_ incorrect code generation against > > > _probable_ speed gains. > > [ Thomas Bushnell quote adding nothing to the above :-) ] > > I have added _ to emphasize two words that makes the idea clearer. Ie, > it not a question of generating incorrect code, but generating code > that might be incorrect (you know: hard to debug/test for all possible > circumstances...). > I would have used "potential" in the first position, specially as chips keep changing, I watch in dismay as the binutils mailing lists tries to follow the ARM and MIPS architecture variations saga :-) In the second position, I would prefer "likely" because I'm of the opinion that those who invest in optimisation have a clear-ish idea of the objectives they are trying to achieve. That these objectives are short-lived is hardly their fault :-) ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 21:22:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 21:22:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 29314 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 21:22:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29310 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 21:22:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 21:22:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8E8F519A99; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:22:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta03ps.bigpond.com (mta03ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.135]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 38E5819A84 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from acm.org ([144.135.25.84]) by mta03ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GS6YBM00.EVY for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:21:22 +1000 Received: from CPE-144-136-80-227.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([144.136.80.227]) by psmam06.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0i 116/3160238); 27 Feb 2002 22:21:22 Message-ID: <3C7CCF42.C052DD9F@acm.org> From: Graham Gallagher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net> <20020227122932.M26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:21:22 +1100 Lucio De Re wrote: > > That's being intentionally obtuse. Adding code to a computer program > increases the probability of its being incorrect. Prove me wrong. Science of Programming, David Gries, p168 "Doug McIlroy (Bell Laboratories) disagrees with this argument, claiming that correct programs *are* made from incorrect parts. Telephone control programs, for example, are more than half audit code, whose business is to recover from unintended states, and the audit code has been known to mask software as well as hardware errors." From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 21:31:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 21:31:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 29418 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 21:31:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 29414 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 21:31:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 21:31:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 560B819A73; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:31:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mail.snellwilcox.com (mail.snellwilcox.com [195.173.15.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id D14EF19A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:30:14 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com Received: from ccMail by snellwilcox.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.52.01.1) id 3853020730; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:31:09 +0000 Importance: normal Priority: normal Message-Id: <3853020730@snellwilcox.com> X-MIME-Engine: v0.90 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Id: <3853020730-1@snellwilcox.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] 8c -v- gcc Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: steve.simon@snellwilcox.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:28:39 +0000 Hi, My contribution to the debate. My machine is a 400Mhz PII laptop with 128Mbyte RAM, it dual boots NT4 and Plan9. gcc runs under WinNT using the Cygwin emulation enviroment (sorry that is what I have) and is version 2.95.3-5. Plan9 runs as a standalone machine under kfs, using ape. I compiled cputimes.c off netlib and had to up the number of rounds to get reliable results. Ironically I had to then reduce the number of rounds in the push()/pop() tests as this test caused plan9 to thrash its disk - swapping I assume. The results look OK, nothing startling to my eyes, gcc is a bit faster but not shockingly so. The only surprise is the difference in strcpy() but perhaps this one is in C rather than asm in Plan9. Numbers with a query after them had too wide a varience in the tests and so are "dubious". For more info look at the cputimes source. -Steve Operation gcc gcc-O3 Plan9 {} 0.0130 0.0050 0.0061? i1++ 0.0018 0.0058? 0.0049? i1 = i2 + i3 0.0020 0.0024 0.0056 i1 = i2 - i3 0.0022 0.0026 0.0066 i1 = i2 * i3 0.0040 0.0034 0.0042 i1 = i2 / i3 0.0851 0.0877 0.0842 i1 = i2 % i3 0.0835 0.0913 0.0844 f1 = f2 0.0042 0.0012? 0.0027? f1 = f2 + f3 0.0024 0.0024 0.0049 f1 = f2 - f3 0.0032 0.0026 0.0049 f1 = f2 * f3 0.0034 0.0026 0.0049 f1 = f2 / f3 0.0845 0.0875 0.0715 i1 = f1 0.1154 0.1230 0.0895 f1 = i1 0.0072 0.0080 0.0061 v[i] = i 0.0283 0.0361 0.0351 v[v[i]] = i 0.0547 0.0555 0.0398 v[v[v[i]]] = i 0.0605 0.0561 0.0544 if (i == 5) i1++ 0.0038 0.0056 0.0059 if (i != 5) i1++ 0.0040 0.0080 0.0061 while (i < 0) i1++ 0.0036 0.0074? 0.0061? i1 = sum1(i2) 0.0248 0.0010? 0.0183 i1 = sum2(i2, i3) 0.0309 0.0026 0.0266 i1 = sum3(i2, i3, i4) 0.0369 0.0046 0.0317 fputs(s, fp) 0.6498 0.6418 0.3717 fgets(s, 9, fp) 0.5018 0.5020 0.3355 fprintf(fp, sdn, i) 3.4040 3.3196 2.4135 fscanf(fp, sd, &i1) 1.1928 1.1588 0.8743 free(malloc(8)) 1.1386 1.1170 0.1159 push(i) 0.8100 0.7950 0.7739 i1 = pop() 0.6880 0.6370 0.3599 strcpy(s, s0123456789) 0.1050 0.1048 0.3198 i1 = strcmp(s, s) 0.0855 0.0845 0.2147 i1 = strcmp(s, sa123456789) 0.0621 0.0581 0.0373 i1 = atoi(s12345) 0.4090 0.3970 0.4099 sscanf(s12345, sd, &i1) 1.1670 1.1570 0.9679 sprintf(s, sd, i) 2.3710 2.3770 2.0919 f1 = atof(s123_45) 0.6490 0.6170 0.4579 sscanf(s123_45, sf, &f1) 1.5890 1.6170 1.4819 sprintf(s, sf62, 123.45) 6.2350 5.5430 6.0919 i1 = rand() 0.0832 0.0812 0.0475 f1 = log(f2) 0.6640 0.6338 0.6037 f1 = exp(f2) 0.9022 0.7722 0.7719 f1 = sin(f2) 0.9444 0.8762 0.6451 f1 = sqrt(f2) 2.9052 0.1652 0.9841 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this communication are confidential to the normal user of the email address to which it was sent. If you have received this email in error, any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If this is the case, please notify the sender and delete this message. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 22:18:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 22:18:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30040 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 22:18:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30036 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 22:18:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 22:18:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CDC5019A69; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:18:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BBD1319A5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1RD9OpZ028417 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:09:24 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7CDC66.CF8D446F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "9fans@cse.psu.edu" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] samuel Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:17:26 +0100 This was the 10th Ed version of sam that understood C/C++ (written by Tom Cargill/Killian?). Can we get the source released? I'd like to teach it about python, much as I hate syntax directed editors, but I want to be able to get to classes without typing. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 22:19:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 22:19:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30048 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 22:19:12 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30044 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 22:19:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 22:19:12 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E85BF19A8B; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:19:09 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8A6FF19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1RDB1pZ028445 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:01 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7CDCC7.6639B22@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? References: <20020227091330.57B0A19A69@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:19:03 +0100 Keep 'em together. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 22:28:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 22:28:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30252 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 22:28:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30248 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 22:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 22:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 132DF199B6; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:28:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2BFD719A94 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1RDJupZ028551; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:19:56 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7CDEDE.D94BCC64@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:27:58 +0100 I have wasted more time than I care to remember fighting with GNU / lunix (sic). Simple is good, simple works ... I think the compiler design in Plan 9 was an brilliant piece of work, not that I'm blind to the flaws, but I can live with that. GNU - Gnu's Not Useful From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 22:42:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 22:42:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30509 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 22:42:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30505 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 22:42:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 22:42:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BA36A19A97; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:42:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc2-dale5-0-cust139.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.77.139]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id F1C1519A5F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 30138 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 13:41:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 13:41:45 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Message-Id: <20020227134145.259a44b9.matt@proweb.co.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:41:45 +0000 I'd always assumed they were the same, I hope I'm not missing anything! I prefer the email version because I already poll my mail server and having to poll the newserver too seems a bit of a waste. plus I archive my mail and I'm not about to start archiving usenet! M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:07:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:07:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 30913 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:07:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 30909 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:07:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:07:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EF7EF19A9F; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:07:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pali.cps.cmich.edu (pali.cps.cmich.edu [141.209.131.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0845619A17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ishwar@localhost) by pali.cps.cmich.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1REKPh17085 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:20:25 -0500 From: Ish Rattan To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 In-Reply-To: <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:20:25 -0500 (EST) On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Lucio De Re wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:36AM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > > > Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is > > pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages > > gobs of people to work on it. > > > "Incidentally", he says! Licence to bloat? > > On the NetBSD mailing lists we have a saying: "If you want Linux, you > know where to find it." > > Now please go away. I will second the sentiment. -ishwar From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:13:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:13:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31112 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:13:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31106 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:13:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:13:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 63E3019AAF; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:13:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from athena.softcardsystems.com (mail.softcardsystems.com [12.34.136.114]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0499619A8E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from softnet (IDENT:sah@softnet [192.168.1.5]) by athena.softcardsystems.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g1RECjs27635 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:12:56 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Sam Hopkins To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> <15484.8514.796885.10253@nanonic.hilbert.space> In-Reply-To: <15484.8514.796885.10253@nanonic.hilbert.space> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02022705200400.13636@softnet> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: sah@softcardsystems.com List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:20:04 -0500 Yeah, the ability to use google's deja.com search on the 9fans has helped me several times. Sam On Tuesday 26 February 2002 18:58, you wrote: > Dan Cross writes: > > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many > > people are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and > > 9fans have very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from > > one another. What are people's opinions on this? > > I think this is a very little community and splitting it is not a good > idea. Also I like to be able to read 9fans at different places using the > news. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:17:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:17:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31186 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:17:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31182 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:17:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:17:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4EEF419AA4; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:17:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id E327519A9C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:16:55 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227141655.E327519A9C@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:16:42 +0100 Yes please, release it. I'd love to try samuel. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:20:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:20:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31229 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:20:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31225 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:20:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:20:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8912619AAD; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:20:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id CF35D19AA7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:19:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-zmdtdilnmoyppjohynahygpazn" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:19:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-zmdtdilnmoyppjohynahygpazn Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bushnell is right. There's nothing wrong with having heavy duty optimizations. Just because you have to use them with caution doesn't mean they shouldn't be available. The problem of compiler complexity is a problem for those developing/maintaining it, not necessarily for those using it, modulo compile time and you can get some of that back by backing off the optimization level. If I had to support GCC I'ld go nuts but as long as someone else is willing to, why not? Luckily dhog doesn't have to worry as much about pulling his hair out. Having a license that encourages gobs of people to work on components of the system is nice. I wish we had such a license to find out if it is indeed the license that causes that and not some inherent attraction of the code or system. A pity that we're held hostage by a lawyer. Plan 9 held hostage - day 4232 --upas-zmdtdilnmoyppjohynahygpazn Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com ([135.104.9.2]) by plan9; Wed Feb 27 05:38:23 EST 2002 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.4.6]) by plan9; Wed Feb 27 05:38:22 EST 2002 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3265F19AA0; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:38:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A841519A9F for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16g1Cr-0001x2-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:21:05 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:36 GMT edorman@san.rr.com (Eric Dorman) writes: > IMHO the real deal is whether it's fast enough to do what you want > it to do. No doubt 8c would benefit if it had the same zillions > of both paid and unpaid hours gcc has, but that's not saying > anything earth-shattering; for this particular app it does reasonably > well, IMO, given the level of effort put into it. If somebody > wants 8c to go faster then they are welcome to turn the crank > to make it happen.... Sure, GCC has available way more person-hours to try and get every last bit of improvement out of the generated code, and 8c just doesn't have that much time available. I think Dan Cross is entirely right in suggesting that such speed improvements might not be worth the effort it would take to put them into 8c. But that's only an argument against adding gobs of hairy optimization to 8c; it's not an argument for why GCC is somehow *bad* for having such optimizations. Indeed, it's really an argument for why dropping 8c is the best thing to do! But then, 8c does really have a great advantage in speed-of-compilation. So both compilers are doing useful things. Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages gobs of people to work on it. Thomas --upas-zmdtdilnmoyppjohynahygpazn-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:22:13 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:22:13 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31264 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:22:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31260 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:22:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:22:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5B55B19A9E; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:22:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 4BE7519A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:21:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:21:38 -0500 > Yes please, release it. I'd love to try samuel. I have no idea where the code is. It was done by a Mr. Puttress, who was working for Ted Kowalski at the time. I don't know where those people are any more, but they might be at AT&T. I looked around the Lucent and AT&T sites with no luck. The code has never been part of our tree, as far as I know. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:24:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:24:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31293 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:24:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31289 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:24:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:24:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9703F19AA8; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:24:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 52B2719AA1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:23:42 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227142342.52B2719AA1@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:23:37 +0100 In any case, what did exactly samuel with its knowledge of the C syntax to help editing? Something like the C mode used in Emacs? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:27:16 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:27:16 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31350 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:27:16 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31346 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:27:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:27:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8556219AA1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:27:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 950FE19AB1 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:26:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5f095096f26051194873d16304d69260@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel From: "rob pike" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:26:02 -0500 > In any case, what did exactly samuel with its knowledge of > the C syntax to help editing? Something like the C mode used > in Emacs? It kept a database on the side to make it easy to look up declarations and that sort of thing. The database needed to be updated whenever you changed the program. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Wed Feb 27 23:31:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Wed Feb 27 23:31:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31378 invoked by uid 1020); 27 Feb 2002 23:31:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31374 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 23:31:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 23:31:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CB7E019AB0; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:31:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from nautilus.dat.escet.urjc.es (gsyc113.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.113]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7146719AAB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:30:10 -0500 (EST) From: Fco.J.Ballesteros To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227143010.7146719AAB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:30:02 +0100 It's funny how acme can also be used to do that kind of stuff, without knowing a bit about C. With a few scripts, you generate prototypes from functions, locate struct definitions and the like. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:09:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:09:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31895 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:09:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31891 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:09:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:09:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7D6BB19AA0; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 7CABB19A94 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:08:15 -0500 (EST) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020227150815.7CABB19A94@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:24:34 0000 >This was the 10th Ed version of sam that understood C/C++ (written samuel UNDERSTOOD C++? respect! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:09:28 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:09:28 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 31907 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:09:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 31902 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:09:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:09:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DB20E19AAB; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:09:19 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 562B119A94 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:08:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] plan or side effect Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:08:23 -0500 Bushnell et al, By the way, I'm not ignoring Thomas' question. I'm querying compiler designers I know about my statement that they know that they might be breaking programs, i.e. generating incorrect code, with some optimizations and find that acceptable. It was definitely a true statement when I was at DG in the compiler group, but that was a long time ago. It could be that I'm assuming a plan when all I'm seeing is the inevitable bugs. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:25:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:25:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32131 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:25:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32127 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:25:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1DBA919A84; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:25:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 142B419AA2 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1RFFHpZ029485 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:15:17 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7CF9E8.A691DD4F@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel References: <20020227150815.7CABB19A94@mail.cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:23:20 +0100 forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > samuel UNDERSTOOD C++? respect! This would have been 1989, before C++ got into its terminal stage. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:28:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:28:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32203 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:28:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32199 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:28:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D39BD19A8E; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:28:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.22]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id A4B9419A9C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.bell-labs.com (ool-18bd0d-117.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.13.117]) by mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with ESMTP id <0GS7006WK6YJ05@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:27:55 -0500 (EST) From: Sean Quinlan Subject: Re: [9fans] plan or side effect To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-id: <3C7CFAFE.4996DA2A@research.bell-labs.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:27:58 -0500 My experience is that most, if not all, optimizing C compilers will make optimistic assumptions about aliasing. Given that C allows arbitrary cast and application of the & operator, it is pretty much impossible to excatly determine what can be aliased. The compiler takes a shot at figuring this out, but in general, it has to be optimistic if it is going to find many variables that can be registerised. For example, I believe the plan 9 compilers is a little optimistic with globals. The compiler will registerise such variables within a function even though it is possible that the variable is aliased via a pointer. I recall Ken saying he never gets caught, but obviously it is not hard to contrive examples when he will get the "wrong" answer. presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > Bushnell et al, > > By the way, I'm not ignoring Thomas' question. > I'm querying compiler designers I know about my > statement that they know that they might be breaking > programs, i.e. generating incorrect code, > with some optimizations and find that acceptable. > It was definitely a true statement when I was at > DG in the compiler group, but that was a long > time ago. It could be that I'm assuming a plan when > all I'm seeing is the inevitable bugs. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:33:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:33:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32248 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:33:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32244 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:33:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:33:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFEDF19AB3; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:33:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from gsyc.escet.urjc.es (gsyc064.dat.escet.urjc.es [193.147.71.64]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EB78E19AAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from nanonic.hilbert.space (80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12]) by gsyc.escet.urjc.es (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA29710 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:32 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: gsyc.escet.urjc.es: Host 80-26-99-12.uc.nombres.ttd.es [80.26.99.12] claimed to be nanonic.hilbert.space Received: from paurea by nanonic.hilbert.space with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16g63l-0000Vw-00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15484.64496.974395.322869@nanonic.hilbert.space> From: paurea@gsyc.escet.urjc.es To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: VM 7.01 under Emacs 20.7.2 Subject: [9fans] splitting the compiler Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:00 +0100 As I see it we have three sets of constraints here: 1) - being fast compiling 2) - generating fast code (even if it breaks...? ) 3) - being portable We can make the first and the second not exclusive by having -O flags so while developing (you want fast compiling and no new bugs generated by the compiler) you don't use 2. The issue here is the 3rd constraint. If you add a complex optimizer the code is less portable. I think the only way out of that is having two independant compilers (the may share a lot of codebase) say, 8c and 8co (optimized). The idea is that 8c compiles 8co, 8c is portable, fast and simple. 8co is slow but generates fast code. Not that I am writing any compiler, it is just a suggestion. :-) By the way, I have just recompiled XFree86 tree and it has taken me three quarters of an hour. That is not the path to follow!!!. -- Saludos, Gorka "Curiosity sKilled the cat" From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 00:33:28 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 00:33:28 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 32260 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 00:33:27 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 32256 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 00:33:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 00:33:27 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 579CC19AA7; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:33:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C9B8119AB7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA27095 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:59:14 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020227145912.Q26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net> <20020227122932.M26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <3C7CCF42.C052DD9F@acm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <3C7CCF42.C052DD9F@acm.org>; from Graham Gallagher on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:21:22PM +1100 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:59:12 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:21:22PM +1100, Graham Gallagher wrote: > > "Doug McIlroy (Bell Laboratories) disagrees with this argument, claiming > that correct programs *are* made from incorrect parts. Telephone control > programs, for example, are more than half audit code, whose business is > to recover from unintended states, and the audit code has been known to > mask software as well as hardware errors." Now I'm obtuse. From the above, I can't decide whether that means that enough code will catch all possible errors (quis custodet custodes?) or that one can insanely keep chasing one's own tail. I think the jury will stay out on that one :-) I wouldn't mind some clarification as to "this argument" mentioned in the quote. I don't have a copy of Gries's book handy :-) ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 02:08:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 02:08:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 596 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 02:08:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 592 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 02:08:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 02:08:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5F30C19A6E; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:08:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from new-york.lcs.mit.edu (new-york.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.4.65]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2C9CB19A31 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (24-6-177.wireless.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.6.177]) by new-york.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.3/8.10.1) with SMTP id g1RH76k05604; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <796aacf5a7675ca366eb6f49b22ff97e@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, emerth@telusplanet.net Subject: Re: [9fans] help: boot problem after install From: "Russ Cox" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:07:05 -0500 > Plan9 is installed on 3rd partition, partition size is 1.5GB Partition 1 > has PCDOS installed left over from a Netware install, partition 2 has > Atheos installed (the partition table has been worked on by PCDOS, > Netware 6, Linux and Plan9 ;-) Did you change your plan9.ini after installing? If so, what does it look like. How big are the PCDOS and Atheos partitions? More specifically, how far into the hard disk does the Plan 9 partition start? Can you boot the install floppy again (same one you used to do the install), draw a new window, and run "cat /dev/sdC0/ctl"? Russ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 02:59:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 02:59:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1026 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 02:59:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1022 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 02:59:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 02:59:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EC50119A4A; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:59:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from srv1.freemail.ru (srv1.freemail.ru [217.174.99.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 38B9019A58 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by srv1.freemail.ru (8.10.1/8.10.1) id g1RHvxq45431; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:57:59 +0300 (MSK) Message-Id: <200202271757.g1RHvxq45431@srv1.freemail.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Wmx-0.3 From: "stanv" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] (no subject) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:57:59 +0300 (MSK) --- îÅËÏÇÄÁ ÂÅÇÁÔØ ÐÏ ÍÁÇÁÚÉÎÁÍ? www.Shopping.ru - ÓÏÔÎÉ ÔÙÓÑÞ ÔÏ×ÁÒÏ× ÏÔ 10 ÔÙÓÑÞ (!) ÐÒÏÄÁ×ÃÏ×. ôÁËÏÇÏ ×ÙÂÏÒÁ ÎÅÔ ÎÉÇÄÅ! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 04:29:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 04:29:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 1755 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 04:29:21 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 1751 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 04:29:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 04:29:20 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.30.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EF67C19AA2; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:29:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7C23419AAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.1.1]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:48 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020228082853.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: <20020227064113.A26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> References: <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> <200202261746.MAA14863@augusta.math.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2002 19:28:48.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAFE9C90:01C1BFC4] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:53 +1300 On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:46:26PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > What are people's opinions on this? > How would you characterise the different spirits of the two groups, and what advantage would you see to either group in a split? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 06:10:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 06:10:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2416 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 06:10:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2412 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 06:10:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 06:10:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C16A719A58; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:10:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mta03ps.bigpond.com (mta03ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.135]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 137C619AC0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from acm.org ([144.135.25.87]) by mta03ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GS7MOJ00.5NN for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:07:31 +1000 Received: from CPE-144-136-80-227.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([144.136.80.227]) by psmam07.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0i 125/1846191); 28 Feb 2002 07:07:31 Message-ID: <3C7D4A93.D641124E@acm.org> From: Graham Gallagher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <87heo4ylg9.fsf@becket.becket.net> <20020227122932.M26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <3C7CCF42.C052DD9F@acm.org> <20020227145912.Q26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:07:31 +1100 Lucio De Re wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:21:22PM +1100, Graham Gallagher wrote: > > > > "Doug McIlroy (Bell Laboratories) disagrees with this argument, claiming > > that correct programs *are* made from incorrect parts. Telephone control > > programs, for example, are more than half audit code, whose business is > > to recover from unintended states, and the audit code has been known to > > mask software as well as hardware errors." > > Now I'm obtuse. From the above, I can't decide whether that means > that enough code will catch all possible errors (quis custodet > custodes?) or that one can insanely keep chasing one's own tail. > > I think the jury will stay out on that one :-) > > I wouldn't mind some clarification as to "this argument" mentioned in > the quote. I don't have a copy of Gries's book handy :-) The McIlroy quote was a counterexample to the argument: "Suppose a program consists of n small components - i.e. procedures, modules - each with probability p of being correct. Then the probability P that the whole program is correct certainly satisfies P < p^n". From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 06:19:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 06:19:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2507 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 06:19:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2503 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 06:19:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 06:19:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D0A6819AB1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:19:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5107A19AAE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26142 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:17:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202272117.QAA26142@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:53 +1300." <3.0.6.32.20020228082853.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:17:46 -0500 > On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:46:26PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > Here's a question; how many people read comp.os.plan9 versus how many people > > are on 9fans? The issue has been raised that comp.os.plan9 and 9fans have > > very different spirits, and should, perhaps, be divorced from one another. > > What are people's opinions on this? > > How would you characterise the different spirits of the two groups, and > what advantage would you see to either group in a split? Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that they have two different spirits; the issue was raised to me, not the other way around. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 06:38:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 06:38:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2681 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 06:38:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2677 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 06:38:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 06:38:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 91B8319AC5; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:37:59 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz (210-55-57-168.adsl.xtra.co.nz [210.55.57.168]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 485F719AB8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from MERCURY ([192.168.1.1]) by frontdoor.mbmnz.co.nz with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.1600); Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:38:38 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20020228103839.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> X-Sender: mbml/andrew@pop3.clear.net.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Andrew Simmons Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: <200202272117.QAA26142@math.psu.edu> References: <"Your message of Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:28:53 +1300." <3.0.6.32.20020228082853.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2002 21:38:38.0568 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E062E80:01C1BFD7] Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:38:39 +1300 > >Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that they have two different spirits; >the issue was raised to me, not the other way around. > > - Dan C. > It's hard to see any point in changing, unless the person who raised the issue has a really compelling justification. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 06:41:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 06:41:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2709 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 06:41:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2705 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 06:41:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 06:41:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.6.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6883819AAC; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:41:13 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3A08219A0B for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03473 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:40:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202272140.QAA03473@math.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:38:39 +1300." <3.0.6.32.20020228103839.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> From: Dan Cross Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:40:35 -0500 It certainly seems that the overwhelming majority would like to see things remain as they are. - Dan C. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 07:15:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 07:15:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 2965 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 07:15:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 2961 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 07:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 07:15:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E6F3B19AB5; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:15:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cumin.apnic.net (cumin.apnic.net [202.12.29.59]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 81CF819ABB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from apnic.net (hadrian.apnic.net [202.12.29.249]) by cumin.apnic.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1RMAlqE010490 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:10:47 +1000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:40:35 -0500." <200202272140.QAA03473@math.psu.edu> Message-ID: <21235.1014848082@apnic.net> From: George Michaelson X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.1 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:14:42 +1000 > It certainly seems that the overwhelming majority would like to see things > remain as they are. I would sometimes like a digest with gated entry. 9fans is the torah which as we know, can mean anything to kabbalists depending on what dice-throw algorithm they use to select the words to read. A monoatheistical selection of the analects would be more useful 'The gospel according to pike' being different to: 'The apocryphal book of boyd' but both having their place. Of course, we also need a concordance. And, translation into Aramaic. -George From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 07:43:22 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 07:43:22 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3209 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 07:43:22 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3205 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 07:43:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 07:43:21 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C6EF919AD1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:43:14 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from becket.becket.net (vp190174.reshsg.uci.edu [128.195.190.174]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5D63319ACE for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from tb by becket.becket.net with local (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 16gCoM-0006OM-00 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:44:34 -0800 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> X-Reply-Permission: Posted or emailed replies to this message constitute permission for an emailed response. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1F0A1E51 63 28 EB DA E6 44 E5 5E EC F3 04 26 4E BF 1A 92 X-Windows: Form follows malfunction. From: tb@becket.net (Thomas Bushnell, BSG) In-Reply-To: <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Message-ID: <877koyzgrx.fsf@becket.becket.net> Lines: 5 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: 27 Feb 2002 14:44:34 -0800 lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re) writes: > Now please go away. Naw, this is Usenet! From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 07:48:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 07:48:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3270 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 07:48:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3266 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 07:48:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 07:48:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CBFB019ACD; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:48:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 558B119AC9 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:47:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <28ff9a9c71ca0c354fca1202927d87e2@plan9.bell-labs.com> From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [9fans] (no subject) Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:47:15 -0500 This is what I got out of Cliff Young: Do you mean about the general 9fans topic of whether optimizations are dangerous, or about the specific issue of when you can registerize a global? On the former, one person made the rarely-made point that many people write programs that depend on undefined behavior in the C standard, then gripe when their bugs that are masked with -O0 are exposed with -O2. I think this point isn't made often enough. On the other hand, I'm entirely willing to admit that buggy optimizations passes are the reason why people turn optimizations off. It's hard to write optimizations that are as reliable as, say, hardware. Part of this is that the verification technology is way better on the hardware side, and another part is that writing a good optimizing compiler is a never-ending time sink, and it's hard to get users to send you examples that exhibit bugs, and then even harder to track them down. And this in a program that isn't multithreaded. On registerizing globals, it seems to be that it's entirely safe to registerize as long as control flow doesn't leave your function. I.e., don't expect registerized globals not to mutate across function calls. Threaded programmers know what they're getting themselves into, and ought to be using locks or condition variables. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 07:49:14 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 07:49:14 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3278 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 07:49:13 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3274 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 07:49:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 07:49:13 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6F9F419AC4; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:49:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wullbinkle.real.com (wullbinkle.real.com [207.188.22.31]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3D4CA19AB7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from real.com (murrow2k1.real.com [207.188.7.41]) by wullbinkle.real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1RMmutC017449 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:48:56 -0800 Received: from skipt.real.com (pppoe0036.gh.centurytel.net [209.206.170.72]) by real.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1RMn3Ma001648 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:49:04 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227150203.02e59648@mail.real.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: skipt@real.com Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel In-Reply-To: <3C7CDC66.CF8D446F@strakt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:04:09 -0800 At 02:17 PM 2/27/2002 +0100, Boyd Roberts wrote: >I'd like to teach it about python, much as I hate syntax directed >editors, but I want to be able to get to classes without typing. (Allow me to mount my high and mighty horse...) try man emacs From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 08:06:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 08:06:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3463 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 08:06:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3459 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 08:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 08:06:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id CE47519ACC; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:06:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 0256419A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:05:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: From: seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:05:20 -0500 EMACS(1) EMACS(1) NAME emacs - editor macros SYNOPSIS emacs [ options ] DESCRIPTION This page intentionally left blank. SOURCE MIT SEE ALSO sam(1), vi(1) BUGS Yes. Page 1 Plan 9 (printed 2/27/02) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 08:08:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 08:08:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3478 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 08:08:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3474 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 08:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 08:08:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 27E4F19AD8; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:08:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cnm-vra.com (cnm-vra.com [209.76.64.46]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4526F19AD5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from micah by cnm-vra.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16gIJm-0000cy-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:37:22 -0800 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] OT: sam on XP Message-ID: <20020227203722.A2370@cnm-vra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i From: Micah Stetson Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:37:22 -0800 I know this isn't exactly Plan 9 related, but has anyone here used the Windows version of sam on Windows XP? I don't have the computer nearby at the moment, so I can't give a very exact report. But if I remember, it seems like the host part dies if I type anything in the command window. The terminal part stays running, but you can't do anything with it and all of the menu items are parenthesized. This is on a new Sony VAIO, again, I don't have it here and I don't recall the exact specificaitons. Thanks in advance, Micah From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 08:17:36 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 08:17:36 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 3564 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 08:17:36 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 3560 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 08:17:35 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 08:17:35 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D5E7419ADF; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:17:29 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from honk.eecs.harvard.edu (honk.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.101]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6B17319AD4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by honk.eecs.harvard.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F34B13C109; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:15:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:15:36 -0500 From: William Josephson To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel Message-ID: <20020227181536.A53213@honk.eecs.harvard.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:05:20PM -0500 X-No-archive: yes Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:05:20PM -0500, seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > EMACS(1) EMACS(1) Damn. You beat me to it. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 09:25:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 09:25:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 4593 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 09:25:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 4589 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 09:25:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 09:25:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DD54919AEE; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:25:15 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 49B1219AE0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:24:23 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-hmsvcwmdhqvczrpmxnahpkocoj" Message-Id: <20020228002424.49B1219AE0@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] devpcidev.c Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:25:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-hmsvcwmdhqvczrpmxnahpkocoj Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, This little program allows me to read/write to random memory addresses from userland. Russ Cox indicated that he has something similar, but since i wanted to learn how to write /dev/ stuff i decided to give it a try myself... I find it helpful when debugging vga (for example) from serial console. Maybe some of you will find it helpful for other things :) Something to note: it is unsafe to use peek and poke at the hardware from userland. There are so many ways to render your machine inoperable that I'm not going to bother listing them here. (Normally a reboot fixes things, but...) Don't take it out on me or on LANL if your hardware chokes as a consequence of pcidev. Do not attempt to remove bread stuck in a plugged toaster with a knife either. *shrug*... You know all this, bot nevertheless you have been warned. Pcidev (sorry, couldn't think of a better name) sits between you and the hardware devices on your computer. It allows the user to read/write (standard inb, inw, inl, outb, outw, outl) using simple shell scripts. Pcidev could be found as a drive named #Z. When bound to a directory it presents itself as a sigle file named 'base'. This file takes as input a memory address, to which the user wants to write or read. Having been given an address, pcidev creates a directory named after the it and populates it with 6 files used for reading/writing, namely: inb -> read a byte inw -> read a word (16 bits) inl -> read a long outb -> write to the port (byte) outw -> short outl -> long That's pretty much it.. It's really simple. Here's a sample session with it: ---- % bind -a '#Z' /tmp/z % cd /tmp/z % ls base % echo 0x3cc > base # address should be a valid atol()-understandable string, 0xF, 0F, 15 -> all accepted % ls 0x3cc # 0x3cc is VGA's Miscellaneous Output Register base % cd 0x3cc % ls inb inl inw outb outl outw % cat inb 0xe3% # no \n appended... % cat inl 0xff0800e3% % cd .. % echo 0x80 > base % rm 0x3cc % ls 0x80 # a pci post-card. write-only base % cd 0x80 % echo 0xf > outb # 0F shows on the device, % echo 14 > outb # 0D shows on the device ---- That's about it. The maximum addresses opened at a single time is 128. Just rm some stuff to open up space (rm base will not work, of course). To compile a kernel with pcidev: cd /sys/src/9/pc cp devpcidev.c . edit pcdisk and add 'pcidev' at the bottom of the 'dev' list mk 'CONF=9pcdisk' (or your favorite way ofdoing it) 9fat:; cp 9pcdisk /n/9fat reboot... Sorry, there is no man page for it, but there are no plans to put it into the official distribution either :) While discussing the 'design' with Ron Minnich another way of doing it came up -- have a single file for input, another one for output and manage the addresses with seek(). That way a 5-line C program could read and report the entire status of a device. I'm posting this implementation because it's a bit more complex (dealing with subdirectories, adding/deleting addresses) and not because it's necessarily the better way to present files for inb and outb. regards: andrey ps: as usual, flame me privately if you don't like it or if it doesn't work.. --upas-hmsvcwmdhqvczrpmxnahpkocoj Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=devpcidev.c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #include "u.h" #include "../port/lib.h" #include "mem.h" #include "dat.h" #include "fns.h" #include "io.h" #include "../port/error.h" static char Etoomany[] = "too many ports opened"; static char Enoclient[] = "no such pci device..."; static void *pcidevbase = 0; enum { Qtopdir = 0, Qbase, Qpcidir, Qinb, /* reading */ Qinw, Qinl, Qoutb, /* writing */ Qoutw, Qoutl, }; typedef struct Mypci Mypci; typedef struct Devpci Devpci; struct Mypci { QLock; ulong base; }; enum { Maxpcidev = 128, /* looks like a good number */ }; struct Devpci { Mypci *pci[Maxpcidev]; uint npci; }; static Devpci devpci; static Dirtab pcidevdir[] = { "inb", {Qinb}, 0, 0440, "inw", {Qinw}, 0, 0440, "inl", {Qinl}, 0, 0440, "outb", {Qoutb}, 0, 0220, "outw", {Qoutw}, 0, 0220, "outl", {Qoutl}, 0, 0220, }; static Dirtab pcitopdir[] = { "base", {Qbase}, 0, 0220, }; #define QSHIFT 4 /* location in qid of client # */ #define QID(q) (((q).path&0x0000000F)>>0) #define CLIENTPATH(q) ((q&0x07FFFFFF0)>>QSHIFT) #define CLIENT(q) CLIENTPATH((q).path) Mypci* pcislotpath(ulong path) { Mypci *cl; int slot; slot = CLIENTPATH(path); if(slot == 0) return nil; cl = devpci.pci[slot-1]; if(cl==0 || cl->base==0) return nil; return cl; } Mypci* pcislot(Chan *c) { Mypci *client; client = pcislotpath(c->qid.path); if(client == nil) error(Enoclient); return client; } static int pcidevgen(Chan *c, Dirtab *tab, int x, int s, Dir *dp) { int t; Qid q; ulong path; Mypci *cl; char buf[NAMELEN]; USED(tab, x); q.vers = 0; if(s == DEVDOTDOT){ switch(QID(c->qid)){ case Qpcidir: cl = pcislot(c); sprint(buf, "0x%lux", cl->base); devdir(c, (Qid){CHDIR|Qtopdir, 0}, buf, 0, eve, 0500, dp); break; default: panic("pcidevwalk %lux", c->qid.path); } return 1; } t = QID(c->qid); if(t == Qtopdir){ if(s == 0){ q = (Qid){Qbase, 0}; devdir(c, q, "base", 0, eve, 0600, dp); } else if(s <= devpci.npci){ cl = devpci.pci[s-1]; if(cl == 0) return 0; sprint(buf, "0x%lux", cl->base); q = (Qid){CHDIR|(s<qid.path&~(CHDIR|((1<qid.vers; switch(s){ case 0: q = (Qid){path|Qinb, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "inb", 0, eve, 0200, dp); break; case 1: q = (Qid){path|Qinw, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "inw", 0, eve, 0200, dp); break; case 2: q = (Qid){path|Qinl, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "inl", 0, eve, 0200, dp); break; case 3: q = (Qid){path|Qoutb, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "outb", 0, eve, 0400, dp); break; case 4: q = (Qid){path|Qoutw, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "outw", 0, eve, 0400, dp); break; case 5: q = (Qid){path|Qoutl, c->qid.vers}; devdir(c, q, "outl", 0, eve, 0400, dp); break; default: return -1; } return 1; } static void pcidevreset(void) { } void pcidevinit(void) { devinit(); } static Chan* pcidevattach(char* spec) { return devattach('Z', spec); } int pcidevwalk(Chan* c, char* name) { return devwalk(c, name, 0,0 , pcidevgen); } static void pcidevstat(Chan* c, char* dp) { devstat(c, dp, pcitopdir, nelem(pcitopdir), devgen); } static Chan* pcidevopen(Chan* c, int omode) { return devopen(c, omode, pcitopdir, nelem(pcitopdir), devgen); } static long pcidevread(Chan* c, void* a, long n, vlong) { char str[16]; int size = 0; ulong o; Mypci *cl; if(c->qid.path & CHDIR) return devdirread(c, a, n, 0, 0, pcidevgen); cl = pcislot(c); qlock(cl); if(waserror()){ qunlock(cl); nexterror(); } /* assume some things about 'a' that we probably shouldn't */ switch(QID(c->qid)){ case Qinb: size = sprint(str, "0x%2.2ux", inb(cl->base) & 0xFF); break; case Qinw: size = sprint(str, "0x%4.4ux", ins(cl->base) & 0xFFFF); break; case Qinl: size = sprint(str, "0x%8.8lux", inl(cl->base) & 0xFFFFFFFF); break; } qunlock(cl); poperror(); o = c->offset; if(o >= size) return 0; if(o+n > size) n = size-c->offset; memmove(a, str+o, n); return n; } static long pcidevwrite(Chan* c, void* a, long n, vlong off) { Mypci *cl; ulong offset = off; USED(offset, n); if(c->qid.path & CHDIR) error(Eisdir); if(QID(c->qid) == Qbase) { if(devpci.npci < Maxpcidev) { devpci.pci[devpci.npci] = (Mypci *)malloc(sizeof(Mypci)); devpci.pci[devpci.npci]->base = strtol(a, nil, 0); devpci.npci++; return 1; } else { error(Etoomany); return 0; } } cl = pcislot(c); qlock(cl); switch(QID(c->qid)){ case Qoutb: outb(PADDR(cl->base), atol(a) & 0xff); break; case Qoutw: outs(PADDR(cl->base), atol(a) & 0xffff); break; case Qoutl: outl(PADDR(cl->base), atol(a)); break; } qunlock(cl); return 1; } static void pcidevcreate(Chan *, char*, int, ulong) { } static Chan * pcidevclone(Chan *c1, Chan *c2) { return devclone(c1, c2); } static void pcidevremove(Chan *c) { int slot; Mypci *cl; slot = CLIENTPATH(c->qid.path); if(slot == 0) return; slot--; /* align with pci[] */ cl = devpci.pci[slot]; free(cl); devpci.npci--; while (slot < devpci.npci) { devpci.pci[slot] = devpci.pci[slot+1]; slot++; } } static void pcidevclose(Chan *c) { USED(c); } Dev pcidevdevtab = { 'Z', "pcidev", pcidevreset, devinit, pcidevattach, pcidevclone, pcidevwalk, pcidevstat, pcidevopen, pcidevcreate, pcidevclose, pcidevread, devbread, pcidevwrite, devbwrite, pcidevremove, devwstat, }; --upas-hmsvcwmdhqvczrpmxnahpkocoj-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 09:30:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 09:30:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5413 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 09:30:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5409 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 09:30:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 09:30:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B5D4219AAE; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:30:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C2DCF19ABF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:29:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <628cd61f9c2e1bfc4c42cc5e169965fa@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] devpcidev.c From: David Gordon Hogan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:28:59 -0500 audio%g ls -l /dev/pci --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.0.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.0.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.1.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.1.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.20.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.20.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.3.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.3.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.4.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.4.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.1ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.1raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.2ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.2raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.3ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.3raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/1.0.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/1.0.0raw audio%g cat /dev/pci/*ctl class 06 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7190 intl 0 class 06 subclass 04 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7191 intl 0 class 02 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 1229 intl 10 class 04 subclass 01 piclass 00 vid 1073 did 000c intl 11 class 02 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 1229 intl 11 class 06 subclass 01 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7110 intl 0 class 01 subclass 01 piclass 80 vid 8086 did 7111 intl 0 class 0c subclass 03 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7112 intl 11 class 06 subclass 80 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7113 intl 0 class 03 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 1002 did 4742 intl 11 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 09:34:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 09:34:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 5544 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 09:34:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5540 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 09:34:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 09:34:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 9A44219AD0; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:34:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from acl.lanl.gov (plan9.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.177]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 47A9B19ABB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:33:02 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] devpcidev.c From: andrey mirtchovski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="upas-mhvrqblmljqwautotklmjfftyd" Message-Id: <20020228003302.47A9B19ABB@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:35:31 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --upas-mhvrqblmljqwautotklmjfftyd Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oops :) --upas-mhvrqblmljqwautotklmjfftyd Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Received: from acl.lanl.gov ([128.165.147.1]) by acl.lanl.gov; Wed Feb 27 17:31:18 MST 2002 Received: (qmail 2274590 invoked by uid 18927); 27 Feb 2002 17:31:17 -0700 Delivered-To: andrey@acl.lanl.gov Received: (qmail 2290189 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2002 17:30:20 -0700 Received: from mailrelay3.lanl.gov (128.165.3.1) by acl.lanl.gov with SMTP; 27 Feb 2002 17:30:20 -0700 Received: from mailproxy1.lanl.gov (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mailrelay3.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1S0UKv18427; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:30:20 -0700 Received: from mail.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mailproxy1.lanl.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6/(ccn-5)) with ESMTP id g1S0WB216730; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:32:11 -0700 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B5D4219AAE; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:30:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id C2DCF19ABF for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:29:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <628cd61f9c2e1bfc4c42cc5e169965fa@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] devpcidev.c From: David Gordon Hogan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:28:59 -0500 audio%g ls -l /dev/pci --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.0.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.0.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.1.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.1.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.20.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.20.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.3.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.3.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.4.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.4.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.0raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.1ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.1raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.2ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.2raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.3ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/0.7.3raw --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 0 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/1.0.0ctl --r--r--r-- $ 0 dhog dhog 128 Feb 20 19:29 /dev/pci/1.0.0raw audio%g cat /dev/pci/*ctl class 06 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7190 intl 0 class 06 subclass 04 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7191 intl 0 class 02 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 1229 intl 10 class 04 subclass 01 piclass 00 vid 1073 did 000c intl 11 class 02 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 1229 intl 11 class 06 subclass 01 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7110 intl 0 class 01 subclass 01 piclass 80 vid 8086 did 7111 intl 0 class 0c subclass 03 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7112 intl 11 class 06 subclass 80 piclass 00 vid 8086 did 7113 intl 0 class 03 subclass 00 piclass 00 vid 1002 did 4742 intl 11 --upas-mhvrqblmljqwautotklmjfftyd-- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 09:50:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 09:50:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 6001 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 09:50:26 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 5996 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 09:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 09:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 94B1219ADE; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:50:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 428A819ADD for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:49:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] devpcidev.c From: David Gordon Hogan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:49:34 -0500 > oops :) To be fair, "/dev/pci" is actually served by devpnp.c, a driver I wrote for mucking with ISA PnP devices. I added PCI as an afterthought. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 12:25:23 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 12:25:23 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 10251 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 12:25:23 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 10247 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 12:25:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 12:25:23 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.18.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B00D119AA9; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:25:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from athena.sd.ca.us (204-210-5-98.san.rr.com [204.210.5.98]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1759519ABA for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from san.rr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by athena.sd.ca.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1S3QBO01698 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:26:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7DA353.68D4C455@san.rr.com> From: Eric Dorman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10smp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 [really GPL again!] References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com> <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:26:11 -0800 "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" wrote: > Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is > pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages > gobs of people to work on it. > Thomas I was sure you were going to say that :) Regards, Eric Dorman From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 14:44:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 14:44:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 14056 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 14:44:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 14052 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 14:44:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 14:44:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 4DA9E19A2D; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:44:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from plan9.cs.bell-labs.com (ampl.com [204.178.31.2]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id 9CADA19AD3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:43:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <26a3aed2aad68bfadb70177d927faef9@plan9.bell-labs.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] 8c -v- gcc From: David Gordon Hogan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:42:50 -0500 > free(malloc(8)) 1.1386 1.1170 0.1159 I just thought that this line needed to be highlighted. We may not have the world's best code generation, but our memory allocator's an order of magnitude faster! C:/cygwin/usr/src/cygwin-1.3.2-1/newlib/libc/stdlib/mallocr.c: * Why use this malloc? This is not the fastest, most space-conserving, most portable, or most tunable malloc ever written. However it is among the fastest while also being among the most space-conserving, portable and tunable. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 16:33:21 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 16:33:21 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17256 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 16:33:20 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17251 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 16:33:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 16:33:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C888019ABA; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:33:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 6D60119ABB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA29463 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:49:18 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel Message-ID: <20020228064917.C27566@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:05:20PM -0500 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:49:17 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:05:20PM -0500, seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > SEE ALSO > sam(1), vi(1) ^^^^^ Huh?! Surely this needs updating? ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 16:33:29 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 16:33:29 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 17264 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 16:33:29 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 17260 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 16:33:28 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 16:33:28 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 8735A19ABD; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:33:22 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from cackle.proxima.alt.za (cackle.proxima.alt.za [196.30.44.141]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C9AA319AD3 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:32:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lucio@localhost) by cackle.proxima.alt.za (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA29457 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:41:07 +0200 (SAST) From: Lucio De Re To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-ID: <20020228064104.B27566@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Mail-Followup-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <877koyzgrx.fsf@becket.becket.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <877koyzgrx.fsf@becket.becket.net>; from Thomas Bushnell, BSG on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:44:34PM -0800 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: lucio@proxima.alt.za List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:41:04 +0200 On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:44:34PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re) writes: > > > Now please go away. > > Naw, this is Usenet! Like, you own it or something?! Just keep your licence arguments to yourself, then. ++L From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 18:08:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 18:08:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 19639 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 18:08:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 19635 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 18:08:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 18:08:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.20.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 24C6319A90; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:08:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from lavoro.home.cs.york.ac.uk (public1-york1-5-cust17.leed.broadband.ntl.com [80.0.45.17]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id EBBF519AB8 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:07:24 -0500 (EST) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] splitting the compiler From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020228090725.EBBF519AB8@mail.cse.psu.edu> Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:04:57 0000 >>We can make the first and the second not exclusive by having -O flags >>so while developing (you want fast compiling and no new bugs generated >>by the compiler) you don't use 2. The issue here is the 3rd >>constraint. If you add a complex optimizer the code is less portable. many (i'd have said nearly all) of the worthwhile fancier global optimisations are perfectly portable, however much code they take to implement. indeed, it's often much easier to do them in a high-level intermediate representation than a low-level machine-oriented one because there is much more context available. arguably, some of the fancier optimisations are often compensating for the low level of the programming language, and it's sometimes much better to address that directly. (very high-level languages can pose their own different problems for compilation, of course.) furthermore, the least buggy optimising compilers i've used have had most of the optimiser on by default. it's the rarely-invoked things that tend to introduce bugs (in my experience, and that of Linux, i've observed, with gcc). as someone observed, for system implementation languages like C--and come to think of it, it was even true of less system-y FORTRAN and Pascal, certainly Ada--what the language definition actually guarantees is often a significant subset of what programmers simply assume they can rely upon. readable language definitions that spell out these points clearly would help, but that often conflicts with the desire for (notional) precision or flexibility in implementation. by contrast with many users of a language, most compiler writers tend to know the definition fairly well, except perhaps for enormous langauges, but authors of compilers that are intended to offer big code improvements (for particular classes of programs) are even more like shyster lawyers with an eye for the fine print. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 18:43:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 18:43:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20268 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 18:43:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20263 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 18:43:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 18:43:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3E4C719A65; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:43:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc2-dale5-0-cust139.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.77.139]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id B127E199D5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 04:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 49451 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 09:42:06 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 09:42:06 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] splitting the compiler Message-Id: <20020228094206.7a0d0811.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020228090725.EBBF519AB8@mail.cse.psu.edu> References: <20020228090725.EBBF519AB8@mail.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:42:06 +0000 > many (i'd have said nearly all) of the worthwhile fancier global > optimisations are perfectly portable, however much code they take to > implement. As I said before, all of this concerns me for the future speed imporvements on the next round of hardware. In the Itanium tech reviews here : http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s=1005&a=22477&app=7&ap=8,00.asp it mentions : "Intel's formally stated goal was to shift complexity out of the processor logic and to the compiler. " From what I know of Intel it could well be conciously making this move as part of it's destructive competitive instincts with regard to both AMD and other compiler vendors. This article : http://www.open-mag.com/754088105111.htm does a shoot out between Intel's C++ compiler and GCC, reporting that for the OBLcpu benchmark suite Intel's compiler, on average, produced code that ran 47% faster than GCC! (and sometimes 100% faster). Intel's compiler, of course, made full use of SIMD instructions but, significantly, showed a similar improvement over GCC when targetting Athlons! I'm glad 8c compiles quickly. Although I was disappointed the first time I compiled a kernel. I went to make a cup of tea while it compiled only to return for my cup and the bugger had already finished! M From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:04:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:04:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20609 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20605 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:04:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id EF43F199BC; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:04:10 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 42E2E19A17 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNKJ-0002hX-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:58:15 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ozan s yigit Message-ID: Organization: York University References: , <3C7CCF42.C052DD9F@acm.org> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:57:47 GMT > Science of Programming, David Gries, p168 ... > "Doug McIlroy (Bell Laboratories) disagrees with this argument, claiming > that correct programs *are* made from incorrect parts. my money is on Doug McIlroy. Gries stopped programming a long time ago. :) oz -- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | don't count your chickens in glass houses york u. computer science | until the cows come home. -- david vestal From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:04:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:04:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20627 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20623 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:04:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C8260199E8; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:04:20 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 7841919A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNJn-0002gE-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:57:43 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: ozan s yigit Message-ID: Organization: York University References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <3C7C829F.D7A24A28@san.rr.com>, <87664jxrsw.fsf@becket.becket.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:57:34 GMT "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" writes: > Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is > pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages > gobs of people to work on it. well, lcc has a license that would not be offensive to most people, but to my knowledge, the same kind of effort is not expanded on it. except norman wilson, noone uses it in production. so it does not optimize; there has been a few optimizers that can be wired with lcc (as i pointed out in the distant past), but noone wants to bother. there must be another reason why people keep hacking gcc to death. maybe it is complexity or fame or both; certainly easier to get name recognition with gcc than with lcc for sure... oz -- www.cs.yorku.ca/~oz | don't count your chickens in glass houses york u. computer science | until the cows come home. -- david vestal From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:04:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:04:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20635 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:34 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20631 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:04:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 1BD4519A3E; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:04:31 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 36B2E19A3E for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNKK-0002hd-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:58:16 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87y9hey227.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <200202272117.QAA26142@math.psu.edu>, <3.0.6.32.20020228103839.009b4ad8@pop3.clear.net.nz> Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:58:01 GMT andrew@mbmnz.co.nz (Andrew Simmons) writes: > It's hard to see any point in changing, unless the person who raised the > issue has a really compelling justification. I raised the issue, in response to the claim that a posting was not approprate for comp.os.plan9, on the grounds that it is gatewayed to 9fans, which is only for fans of Plan 9. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:04:47 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:04:47 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 20648 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:47 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 20644 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:04:46 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:04:46 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B3DBE19A27; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:04:40 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 3CE6D19A2D for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNL3-0002jH-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:59:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87u1s2y1uu.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <3C7CFAFE.4996DA2A@research.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] plan or side effect Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:58:14 GMT seanq@research.bell-labs.com (Sean Quinlan) writes: > The compiler will registerise > such variables within a function even though it is possible > that the variable is aliased via a pointer. Well, that's a bug, certainly. GCC does not make such assumptions. More specifically, the canonical copy of a global is stored in memory, and all function calls are assumed to dirty all of memory. As a result, a global variable can be registerized, but after any function call, it must be assumed that the value has changed, and the register copy must therefore by synced before and after the function call. In the presence of concurrence, even this is not sufficient, because a different thread could clobber the value. However, C does not guarantee synchronization in this case unless the variable is marked "volatile". (And if it is so marked, GCC doesn't do any registerization at all.) Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:23:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:23:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21016 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:23:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21012 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:23:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:23:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B625319995; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:23:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5BB3A19991 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNZZ-000368-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:01 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87n0xuzgwg.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <20020227102706.7194419A73@mail.cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:13:39 GMT nemo@plan9.escet.urjc.es (Fco.J.Ballesteros) writes: > Calm down Tom, we all know you always have interesting > things to say. Who are you talking about? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:30:20 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:30:20 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21139 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21135 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:30:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DDE83199E4; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:30:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id E4FF41998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNZa-00036E-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87pu2qy1sk.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <15484.64496.974395.322869@nanonic.hilbert.space> Subject: Re: [9fans] splitting the compiler Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:13:55 GMT paurea@gsyc.escet.urjc.es writes: > We can make the first and the second not exclusive by having -O > flags so while developing (you want fast compiling and no new bugs > generated by the compiler) you don't use 2. The issue here is the > 3rd constraint. If you add a complex optimizer the code is less > portable. I'm pretty familiar with GCC internals, and it's pretty darn portable. But perhaps there's a whole level of portability I'm missing. Could someone with familiarity with both compilers (GCC and 8c) say [in some detail] what kind of portability 8c has that GCC lacks, so I could understand it better. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:30:26 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:30:26 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21146 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:25 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21142 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:30:25 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 51995199EE; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:30:22 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AD45719980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNaU-00038Z-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:58 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: emerth@telusplanet.net Message-ID: <3C7D7B9D.CD0E7738@telusplanet.net> Organization: University of Bath Computing Services, UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <796aacf5a7675ca366eb6f49b22ff97e@plan9.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [9fans] help: boot problem after install Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: emerth@telusplanet.net List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:33 GMT Hello Russ, I determined the patition table was corrupted: Plan 9's partition thought it was 29GB in size, which was definitely not the case! Reinstalling Plan9 on the first partition (cylinders 0 - 251) resulted in a functional system. Unfortunately I did all this before seeing your reply, and the original plan9.ini's are gone. FWIW, my first attempt had Plan9 on partition 3, which was supposed to extend from cylinder 305 to cylinder 505. I had used the install diskette's bootsetup program to configure a boot diskette and to allow the Plan9 partition to boot as well. The wrenwrite error occurred in both cases. EM From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:30:35 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:30:35 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21153 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:35 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21149 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:35 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:30:35 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5695119A04; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:30:32 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B470619980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNaT-00038N-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:57 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87elj6zgsl.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:09 GMT lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re) writes: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:20:36AM +0000, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > > > > Incidentally, the reason GCC has gobs of people working on it is > > pretty darn simple. It's because GCC has a license which encourages > > gobs of people to work on it. > > > "Incidentally", he says! Licence to bloat? > > On the NetBSD mailing lists we have a saying: "If you want Linux, you > know where to find it." Odd that NetBSD uses GCC, isn't it? No, it's no great wonder why more people use GCC than 8c. There are two reasons: GCC generates better code GCC has a more liberal license than 8c. Thomas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:30:46 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:30:46 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21161 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:45 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21157 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:30:45 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:30:45 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D2DED19A29; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:30:42 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 483801998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNaT-00038T-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:57 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <873czmzgo8.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <1014749934.29779.0.nnrp-13.d4f0e306@news.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] List <-> News gateway? Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:14:21 GMT Roger Peppe writes: > i don't see how they could have different spirits when they they've > always been (more-or-less) the same thing. 9fans is a mailing list, which culturally, gets whatever charter it wants. By its very title, it's a list for fans of Plan 9. Usenet groups, such as comp.os.FOO have much broader charters. It is not reasonable to restrict comp.os.FOO to only fans of FOO. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:34:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:34:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21226 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21222 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:34:16 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2D550199BE; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:34:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 544EF1998C for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNeR-0003Wd-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:19:03 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: robot 0 Message-ID: Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [9fans] mail/news and other fundamentals Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:18:51 GMT i'm relatively new to plan9 - i'm wondering how plan9 users access mail and this newsgroup and prehaps some other services from plan9. is plan9 your primary working environment? - rsh From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:34:29 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:34:29 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21234 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:28 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21230 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:34:24 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2854B199EC; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:34:21 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id AD279199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNeQ-0003WX-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:19:02 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87it8izguc.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: , <20020227122932.M26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:18:38 GMT lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re) writes: > > > However, it seems to be an accepted consequence amongst compiler > > > writers to trade off possible incorrect code generation against > > > probable speed gains. > > > > I've never heard someone say that, actually. Perhaps you could give a > > citation from a compiler writer who said "yeah, this generates > > incorrect code, but hey, it runs fast!"? > > That's being intentionally obtuse. Adding code to a computer program > increases the probability of its being incorrect. Prove me wrong. Your argument is bogus, then. If *that's* all you mean, then you have an argument against *ever* adding *any* feature to *anything*, since you would be getting "probably gains" and earning "possible incorrect behavior". From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:34:34 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:34:34 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21245 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:33 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21241 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:34:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:34:33 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D69F319A1C; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:34:30 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id B3C5A19980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gNfS-0003YR-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:20:06 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" Message-ID: <87sn7mdoz6.fsf@becket.becket.net> Organization: University of California, Irvine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com>, <20020228064104.B27566@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:19:08 GMT lucio@proxima.alt.za (Lucio De Re) writes: > Just keep your licence arguments to yourself, then. I didn't make any argument, I explained a fact that was brought up by other people. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 19:50:19 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 19:50:19 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21519 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 19:50:19 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21515 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 19:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 19:50:19 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.4.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DE9D2199A3; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:50:13 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from pc1-dale5-0-cust136.not.cable.ntl.com (pc2-dale5-0-cust139.not.cable.ntl.com [80.1.77.139]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with SMTP id AB696199B6 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 50319 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 10:49:30 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO matt.thebigchoice.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 10:49:30 -0000 From: Matt H To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 Message-Id: <20020228104930.297c3bf6.matt@proweb.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <87elj6zgsl.fsf@becket.becket.net> References: <181b9e858518e43368953c1050365780@plan9.bell-labs.com> <20020227125118.N26250@cackle.proxima.alt.za> <87elj6zgsl.fsf@becket.becket.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.2 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:49:30 +0000 > Odd that NetBSD uses GCC, isn't it? No, it's no great wonder why more > people use GCC than 8c. There are two reasons: > > GCC generates better code > GCC has a more liberal license than 8c. I really don't believe that *you* actually believe that these are anything like the reasons You're just being stupid and childishly antagonistic (like some other ppl round here!). I can almost absolutely guarantee that the popularity of plan9 or 8c has *nothing* to do with the license. Would you seriously have me believe that if plan9 went public domain tomorrow then by the end of March it would have 100 more users, 10 even! I doubt even Thomas G Bushnell would be using it! Can we take it as a given that the people on this list who have any influence on the people that decide the license actually want it changing and have tried, without success, to make the change and that going to the legal department every day and saying "can we make it GPL please? can we? can we? please? pretty please? pretty please with sugar on" would actually be counter productive. And given that, then repeatedly mentioning it is tiresome and has a negative impact on the morale and development of the plan9 community. It's getting as bad as all the "don't send html email to this list" arguments I see every day. Matt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 20:06:17 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 20:06:17 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 21740 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 20:06:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 21736 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 20:06:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 20:06:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.16.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id C28EE199F2; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:06:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.46]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 91DEB199BB for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbe.ericsson.se (cbeb1.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.145.68]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.12.1/8.12.1/WIREfire-1.4) with ESMTP id g1SB3vZc017789 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:03:57 +0100 (MET) Received: from cbe2180 (cbe2180 [130.100.190.180]) by cbe.ericsson.se (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/unixcenter-cbe-1.0) with SMTP id g1SB3vP25315 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:03:57 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200202281103.g1SB3vP25315@cbe.ericsson.se> From: Bengt Kleberg Subject: Re: [9fans] GUI toolkit for Plan 9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: SJf6j1fKNgHSeMKnxMFkeA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.3.5 SunOS 5.7 sun4u sparc Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Reply-To: Bengt Kleberg List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:03:57 +0100 (MET) > Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > From: "Thomas Bushnell, BSG" > Odd that NetBSD uses GCC, isn't it? No, it's no great wonder why more > people use GCC than 8c. There are two reasons: > > GCC generates better code > GCC has a more liberal license than 8c. There is also a third reason: There are programs that use gcc features not present in any other c compiler. So one needs atleast to have gcc. And once that is decided, why bother with yet another c compiler? (The same thing happens with gmake) bengt From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 21:52:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 21:52:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23045 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 21:52:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23041 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 21:52:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 21:52:18 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 52D1E199B3; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:52:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id BFF6D19992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1SChKpZ007264 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:43:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7E27DC.E0C4A9F6@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:51:40 +0100 seanq@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > EMACS(1) EMACS(1) Yes, remember it well. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 21:54:15 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 21:54:15 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23081 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 21:54:15 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23077 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 21:54:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 21:54:15 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 2C03E199E3; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:54:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from theraft.strakt.com (theraft.strakt.com [62.13.29.34]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id D2C8419980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from strakt.com (zode.strakt.com [62.13.29.39]) by theraft.strakt.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Debian -5) with ESMTP id g1SCjbpZ007287 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:45:37 +0100 Message-ID: <3C7E2864.CB7D1A0C@strakt.com> From: Boyd Roberts Organization: AB Strakt X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.17 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel References: <20020228064917.C27566@cackle.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:53:56 +0100 Lucio De Re wrote: > > sam(1), vi(1) > ^^^^^ Huh?! Surely this needs updating? I'm pretty sure this comes from as far back at the 9th Ed manual. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 22:05:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 22:05:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23246 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 22:05:17 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23242 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 22:05:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 22:05:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.8.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 17CCF19992; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:05:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from mercury.bath.ac.uk (mercury.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.81]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 003CC199ED for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from news by mercury.bath.ac.uk with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 16gQ1q-0002Mp-00 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:51:22 +0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@cse.psu.edu (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Ralph Corderoy Message-ID: Organization: InputPlus Ltd. References: , <3C7CFAFE.4996DA2A@research.bell-labs.com>, <87u1s2y1uu.fsf@becket.becket.net> Subject: Re: [9fans] plan or side effect Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:51:06 GMT Hi Thomas, > Well, that's a bug, certainly. GCC does not make such assumptions. > > More specifically, the canonical copy of a global is stored in > memory, and all function calls are assumed to dirty all of memory. It doesn't have special knowledge of some functions behaviour then, like AIX's xlc compiler? For example, #defines strlen(s) to be __strlen(s) and the compiler knows that calls to __strlen can be optimised in various ways because it knows more about strlen's behaviour than can be expressed in . Ralph. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-admin Thu Feb 28 22:19:18 JST 2002 remote from ar Received: from vega.aichi-u.ac.jp ([202.16.124.3]) by ar; Thu Feb 28 22:19:18 JST 2002 Received: (qmail 23516 invoked by uid 1020); 28 Feb 2002 22:19:18 +0900 Delivered-To: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp Received: (qmail 23512 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2002 22:19:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (HELO mail.cse.psu.edu) (130.203.4.6) by vega.aichi-u.ac.jp with SMTP; 28 Feb 2002 22:19:17 +0900 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (psuvax1.cse.psu.edu [130.203.23.6]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id DB3281998C; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:19:11 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: from wintermute.cse.psu.edu (unknown [130.203.8.5]) by mail.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server) with ESMTP id 0DBA8199B7 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com (hoemail1.lucent.com [192.11.226.161]) by wintermute.cse.psu.edu (CSE Mail Server (Backup MX)) with ESMTP id 6F45073CA0 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pcjjk.mh.lucent.com (h135-3-130-105.lucent.com [135.3.130.105]) by hoemail1.firewall.lucent.com (Switch-2.1.3/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id g1SDHrC09647 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lucent.com (IDENT:jim@pcjjk.mh.lucent.com [127.0.0.1]) by pcjjk.mh.lucent.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1SDJhs01394 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:19:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3C7E2E6F.C13531FE@lucent.com> From: Jim Kelleman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.19-6.2.1 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] samuel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu Errors-To: 9fans-admin@cse.psu.edu X-BeenThere: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu List-Help: List-Id: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans.cse.psu.edu> List-Archive: Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:19:43 -0500 Mr. Puttress (John) was my supervisor until he retired this past summer. If you're interested in the code, send mail to me privately and I'll give you his home email address. jim rob pike wrote: > > > Yes please, release it. I'd love to try samuel. > > I have no idea where the code is. It was done by a Mr. Puttress, > who was working for Ted Kowalski at the time. I don't know where > those people are any more, but they might be at AT&T. > > I looked around the Lucent and AT&T sites with no luck. The code > has never been part of our tree, as far as I know. > > -rob