From tt.gustavsson@bredband.net Wed Sep  1 11:02:53 2004
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Subject: [9fans] dhcpd no binding
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Unfortunately that did not help, this is the exact message from 
ip-dhcpd:

!Discover(id01000b82016c8c via 192.168.10.26): no binding 0.0.0.0

Does the computer that send the dhcp request also send what address
it wants to have, might that be a problem for dhcpd?

Clueless

/Tony G

From capt.nemo@gmail.com Wed Sep  1 11:02:53 2004
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:53:08 +0200
From: Francisco Ballesteros <capt.nemo@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] dhcpd no binding
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Sorry if it was said before, but, have you included an ea entry in the ndb.
I mean, the ethernet address.

I think it=B4s said in the dhcpd man page.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:07 +0200, tt.gustavsson@bredband.net
<tt.gustavsson@bredband.net> wrote:
>=20
> Unfortunately that did not help, this is the exact message from
> ip-dhcpd:
>=20
> !Discover(id01000b82016c8c via 192.168.10.26): no binding 0.0.0.0
>=20
> Does the computer that send the dhcp request also send what address
> it wants to have, might that be a problem for dhcpd?
>=20
> Clueless
>=20
> /Tony G
>=20
>

From tt.gustavsson@bredband.net Wed Sep  1 11:02:54 2004
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I found apossible cause, 
I have multiple lines in /lib/ndb/local connecting ip adresses to mac addresses:

ip=192.168.10.40 sys=comp1 ether=12122.....
ip=192.168.10.40 sys=comp2 ether=43232.....

The computer that has the mac address corresponding to the first line gets the ip address, but not the computers on the next lines.

To get the SIP box to get the ip address, I put its line first, and
voila, it worked. Weird?


/Tony G


From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  2 08:14:20 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:06:41 +0900
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> I got today a USB2.0/IEE1394 interface card probably Japanese local
> card, named IFC-PCI7IU2, which is claimed by the user interface to be
> VIA OHCI Compliant.   The card uses VT6306 and VT6212 chip.

And I bought USB sound device named HCMI-106, composed of only
one chip named CM106-F.

I have a serious problem how to set Adaptive USB Stream Out, or just redu=
se
that function to ordinal synchronous stream, say not=20
desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x06 attrib 0x09 maxpkt 768 interval 1ms [OUT] [I=
so] [Adaptive]refresh 0 synchaddress 0
but just to
desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x06 attrib 0x09 maxpkt 768 interval 1ms [OUT] [I=
so] refresh 0 synchaddress 0

At last, no it doesn't work, just make a very short sound at once when
some sound data were put to /dev/audio.

If anyone has any comments on this result, please don't hesitate to menti=
on
it.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

------------------------cut here-------------------------------
The Topology of the controls of this chip is as follows:

<<< Topology of Selector >>>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D       -----------------
| Mic (4) |-->| agc volume R/L (8) |  ---+         -------------
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D       -----------------         |         |        =
                   |
                                                                      ---=
o | (Pin1)                |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D       --------------                     |   =
                        |             =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
| LineIn (6) |-->| volume R/L (15) |--------o| (Pin2)                |   =
          |                                   |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D       --------------                     |   =
 Selector (7)   |----->| USB Streaming Out |
                                                                       --=
-o| (Pin3)                |             |       (10)                     =
|
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D      ---------------        |         |   =
                       |              =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
| S/PDIF (5) |-->| master mute (16) |---+        |                       =
    |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D      ---------------            +o | (Pin4=
)                |
                                                                         =
 |     -------------
----------      --------------              |
| Mixer (12) |-->| volume(R/L) (2) |------+
----------      --------------



<<<Topology of Mixer >>>

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D                            =
                                                     --------------
| USB Stream In (1) |-----------+                                        =
    +-->| volume(R/L) (2) |---->Selector No.4 pin
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D                           |=
          -----------         |        --------------
                                                             +-->|       =
                 |----+
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D           --------------            |              =
          |
| Mic (4) |-----| master mute (9) |---->|   MIXER (12)  |           |----=
------------------        =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D           --------------            |              =
          |---->| master mute(Play) (13)       |         | Speaker |
                                                               +-> |     =
                  |            |  probably PlayMute button |--->|   (3)  =
     |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D        ---------------   |       ----------- =
         | on the case                           |         =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
| LineIn (6) |---| master mute (11) |-+                                  =
         ----------------------
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D        ---------------



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
| Terminal    |
|   (Unit No)  |  this is #12 here.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------
| Feature Unit   |
|   (Unit No.)     |  This is #7 here.
------------

All the names of the Units/Terminals are as foloows:
<<<Descriptions gotten from the pdesc() >>>

UnitId	Description	  	Terminal Type			Audio Feature	other description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------
1		Terminal Input		0x101(USB Stream)					This is Audio Output Unit 1
2		Audio Feature							MIXER		volume control for channel 1 and 2
3		Terminal Output	0x301(Speaker)
4		Terminal Input		0x201(Mic)
5		Terminal Input		0x605(S/PDIF)						for record
6		Terminal Input		0x603(Line)						for record
7		Audio Selector							[8, 15, 16, 2]	select record input from Mic, Line=
, S/PDIF or MIXER
8		Audio Feature							agc control	for Mic input
9		Audio Feature							mute control	for Mic input
10		Terminal Output	0x101(USB Stream)					This is Audio Input Unit 10
11		Audio Feature							mute+volume	for Line Connector
12		Audio Mixer										mix audio input
13		Audio Feature							mute+volume	for Audio Mixer input
14		not implemented
15		Audio Feature							volume control	for Line Connector
16		Audio Feature							mute control	for S/PDIF
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------
<<<Audio Selector (UnitID 7)>>>

	Audio Feature Unit		bSouceId (Source device)
-----------------------------------------------
		2				12 (Mixer)
		8				4   (Microphone)
		15				6   (Line Connector)
		16				5  (S/PDIF)
------------------------------------------------

UnitID 2: not known what for mute/volume control on master channel.
UnitID 13: ditto.

And the usb/usbaudio -V -v 50 -d 0xf output and some else are as follows:

term% usb/usbaudio -V -v 50 -d 0xf
pdesc 1.-1 [18]
desc 1.-1 [18] 0x01: usb (bcd)0110 class 0 subclass 0 proto 0 [0.0.0] max=
0 8 vendor 0xd8c product 0x6 device (bcd)0010 man 0 prod 2 serial 0 nconf=
ig 1
pdesc 1.0 [340]
desc 1.0 [9] 0x02: config 1: tdlen 340 ninterface 4 iconfig 0 attr 0xa0 p=
ower 500mA
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 0: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x1 proto=
 0 [audio.control.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Class-Specific AC Interface Header Descriptor
	AudioDeviceClass release (bcd)0100, TotalLength 187, InCollection 2 aInt=
erfaceNr1 1, aInterfaceNr2 2

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 1, wTerminalType 0x101 (USB Streaming), bAssocTerminal 0 bNr=
Channels 8, wChannelConfig 0x63f, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Audio output unit 1

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 4, wTerminalType 0x201 (Microphone), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrCha=
nnels 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from Microphone

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 8	bUnitId 8, bSourceId 4, bCo=
ntrolSize 1
 for Record
	agc control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 9	bUnitId 9, bSourceId 4, bCo=
ntrolSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (8, 9) on record
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [25] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Mixer Unit 12
	bNrInPins 3, Input Pin 1's UnitID 1, Input Pin 2's UnitID 9, Input Pin 3=
's UnitID 11, bNrChannels 8, wChannelConfig 0x63f, iChannelNames 0, bmCon=
trols 0x000000000000, iMixer 0
Audio Mixer Unit 12

desc 1.0 [16] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 13	bUnitId 13, bSourceId 12, =
bControlSize 1
 for Mixer Unit 12
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on master channel

desc 1.0 [9] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Output Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 3, wTerminalType 0x301 (Speaker), bAssocTerminal 0 bSourceId=
 13, iTerminal 0
Device can play to Speaker

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 2	bUnitId 2, bSourceId 12, bC=
ontrolSize 1
 for Mixer Unit 12
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [9] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Output Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 10, wTerminalType 0x101 (USB Streaming), bAssocTerminal 0 bS=
ourceId 7, iTerminal 0
Audio input unit 10

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Selector Unit 7
	bUnitId 7, bNrInPins 4, baSourceIDs: [8, 15, 16, 2]

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 6, wTerminalType 0x603 (Line connector), bAssocTerminal 0 bN=
rChannels 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from Line connector

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 15	bUnitId 15, bSourceId 6, b=
ControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (9, 15) on record
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 11	bUnitId 11, bSourceId 6, b=
ControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (15, 11) on record
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 5, wTerminalType 0x605 (S/PDIF), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrChannel=
s 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from S/PDIF

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 16	bUnitId 16, bSourceId 5, b=
ControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (11, 16) on record
	mute control on master channel

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 1: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto=
 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 1: alt 1 nept 1 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto=
 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x24: 1.2: Audio stream for TerminalID 1, delay 1, format_ta=
g 0x1

desc 1.0 [14] 0x24: 1.2: Interface 1, alt 1: 8 channels, 16 bits, discret=
e frequencies are: 44100 48000

desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x06 attrib 0x09 maxpkt 768 interval 1ms [OUT] [I=
so] [Adaptive]refresh 0 synchaddress 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x25: CS_ENDPOINT for attributes 0x1, lockdelayunits 0, lock=
delay 0x0, has sampling-frequency control, does not have pitch control

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 2: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto=
 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 2: alt 1 nept 1 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto=
 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x24: 1.2: Audio stream for TerminalID 10, delay 1, format_t=
ag 0x1

desc 1.0 [14] 0x24: 1.2: Interface 2, alt 1: stereo, 16 bits, discrete fr=
equencies are: 44100 48000

desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x85 attrib 0x05 maxpkt 200 interval 1ms [IN] [Is=
o] [Asynchronous]refresh 0 synchaddress 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x25: CS_ENDPOINT for attributes 0x1, lockdelayunits 0, lock=
delay 0x0, has sampling-frequency control, does not have pitch control

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 3: alt 0 nept 1 class 0x3 subclass 0x0 proto=
 0 [hid.0.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x21: HID (bcd)0100 country 0 nhidclass 1 classdtype 0x22 dl=
en 50

desc 1.0 [7] 0x05: addr 0x81 attrib 0x03 maxpkt 3 interval 32ms [IN] [Int=
errupt]
Buttons on endpoint 1
Record on endpoint 5
Playback on endpoint 6
n =3D 0
setcontrol channels: Set alt 1
setcontrol resolution: Set alt 1
setcontrol channels: Set alt 1
setcontrol resolution: Set alt 1
Playback speed control, value 44100
Record mute control not settable
Record volume control not settable
Record bass control not settable
Record mid control not settable
Record treble control not settable
Record equalizer control not settable
Record agc control not settable
Record delay control not settable
Record bassboost control not settable
Record loudness control not settable
Playback channels control, min 8, max 8, value 8
Playback resolution control, min 16, max 16, value 16
Record speed control, value 44100
Record mute control, min 0, max 0, step 1, value 0
Record volume control, min 0, max 0, step 1, values[1] 0  [2] 0 =20
Playback bass control not settable
Playback mid control not settable
Playback treble control not settable
Playback equalizer control not settable
Record agc control, min 0, max 0, step 1, value 0
Playback delay control not settable
Playback bassboost control not settable
Playback loudness control not settable
Record channels control, min 2, max 2, value 2
Record resolution control, min 16, max 16, value 16
Pitch control =3D ON
Setting discreetly variable playback speed to 44100
Setting playback speed to 44100 Hz; speed now 44100 Hz;Configuring playba=
ck endpoint for 44100 Hz
sent `ep 6 bulk w 1 1' to /dev/usb/0/ctl
Setting discreetly variable record speed to 44100
Setting record speed to 44100 Hz; speed now 44100 Hz;Configuring record e=
ndpoint for 44100 Hz
sent `ep 5 1 r 4 44100' to /dev/usb/0/ctl
setcontrol: control 0.1 not settable
sending `ep 1 bulk r 1 1' to /dev/usb0/1/ctl
buttonproc opening /dev/usb0/1/ep1data
term%=20

term% ls -l /dev/usb0/1
--rw-rw-rw- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/ctl
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/ep1data
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/ep5data
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/ep6data
--rw-rw-rw- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/setup
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/usb0/1/status


term% ls -l /dev  (examples)
--rw-rw-r-- P  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/archctl
--r--r--r-- U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/audio
--rw-rw-rw- M 37 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:34 /dev/audioctl
--r--r--r-- U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/audioin
--rw-rw-rw- M 37 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:34 /dev/audiostat
--rw------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/mouse
--rw-rw-rw- m  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/mouse
--r-------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/screen
--rw-rw-rw- M 37 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:34 /dev/volume
--rw------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/wctl
--rw------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/wdir
--r-------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/window
--r-------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/winid
--r-------- M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/winname
d-r-x------ M 35 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 30 15:35 /dev/wsys
--r--r--r-- c  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Aug 16 17:35 /dev/zero



term% cat /dev/audioctl
volume out 0
channels out 8 8 8
resolution out 1'
speed out 44100
volume out 0
channels out 8 8 8
resolution out 16 16 16
speed in 44100
mute in 0 0 0 1
volume in '0 0' 0 0 1
agc in 0 0 0 1
channels in 2 2 2
resolution in 16 16 16
term%=20

-------------end here---------------

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  2 08:14:21 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:58:51 +0900
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Status: RO

After I summed-up the previous results, I noticed myself I may be doing
something very stupid.  Then, I set on the debug flag of the usb kernel,
and found the problem was not the endpoint is for Adaptive, but just on
the discrepacy of 2 channels or 8 channels.

The present debugging output of
term% usb/usbaudio -V -v 50 -d 0xf
was much improved, and I feel I may very close to the goal...

Anyway, revised results are as foloows, sorry evry one.

----------from here----------
term% usb/usbaudio -V -v 50 -d 0xf
pdesc 1.-1 [18]
desc 1.-1 [18] 0x01: usb (bcd)0110 class 0 subclass 0 proto 0 [0.0.0] max0 8 vendor 0xd8c product 0x6 device (bcd)0010 man 0 prod 2 serial 0 nconfig 1
pdesc 1.0 [340]
desc 1.0 [9] 0x02: config 1: tdlen 340 ninterface 4 iconfig 0 attr 0xa0 power 500mA
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 0: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x1 proto 0 [audio.control.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Class-Specific AC Interface Header Descriptor
	AudioDeviceClass release (bcd)0100, TotalLength 187, InCollection 2 aInterfaceNr1 1, aInterfaceNr2 2

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 1, wTerminalType 0x101 (USB Streaming), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrChannels 8, wChannelConfig 0x63f, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Audio output unit 1

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 4, wTerminalType 0x201 (Microphone), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrChannels 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from Microphone

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 8	bUnitId 8, bSourceId 4, bControlSize 1
 for Record
	agc control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 9	bUnitId 9, bSourceId 4, bControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (8, 9) on record
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [25] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Mixer Unit 12
	bNrInPins 3, Input Pin 1's UnitID 1, Input Pin 2's UnitID 9, Input Pin 3's UnitID 11, bNrChannels 8, wChannelConfig 0x63f, iChannelNames 0, bmControls 0x000000000000, iMixer 0
Audio Mixer Unit 12

desc 1.0 [16] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 13	bUnitId 13, bSourceId 12, bControlSize 1
 for Mixer Unit 12
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on master channel

desc 1.0 [9] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Output Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 3, wTerminalType 0x301 (Speaker), bAssocTerminal 0 bSourceId 13, iTerminal 0
Device can play to Speaker

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 2	bUnitId 2, bSourceId 12, bControlSize 1
 for Mixer Unit 12
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [9] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Output Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 10, wTerminalType 0x101 (USB Streaming), bAssocTerminal 0 bSourceId 7, iTerminal 0
Audio input unit 10

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Selector Unit 7
	bUnitId 7, bNrInPins 4, baSourceIDs: [8, 15, 16, 2]

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 6, wTerminalType 0x603 (Line connector), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrChannels 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from Line connector

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 15	bUnitId 15, bSourceId 6, bControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (9, 15) on record
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 11	bUnitId 11, bSourceId 6, bControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (15, 11) on record
	mute control on master channel
	volume control on channel 1
	volume control on channel 2

desc 1.0 [12] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Input Terminal Descriptor
	bTerminalId 5, wTerminalType 0x605 (S/PDIF), bAssocTerminal 0 bNrChannels 2, wChannelConfig 0x3, iChannelNames 0 iTerminal 0
Device can record from S/PDIF

desc 1.0 [10] 0x24: 1.1: Audio Feature Unit 16	bUnitId 16, bSourceId 5, bControlSize 1
 for Record
Second feature unit (11, 16) on record
	mute control on master channel

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 1: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 1: alt 1 nept 1 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x24: 1.2: Audio stream for TerminalID 1, delay 1, format_tag 0x1

desc 1.0 [14] 0x24: 1.2: Interface 1, alt 1: 8 channels, 16 bits, discrete frequencies are: 44100 48000

desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x06 attrib 0x09 maxpkt 768 interval 1ms [OUT] [Iso] [Adaptive]refresh 0 synchaddress 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x25: CS_ENDPOINT for attributes 0x1, lockdelayunits 0, lockdelay 0x0, has sampling-frequency control, does not have pitch control

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 2: alt 0 nept 0 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 2: alt 1 nept 1 class 0x1 subclass 0x2 proto 0 [audio.stream.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x24: 1.2: Audio stream for TerminalID 10, delay 1, format_tag 0x1

desc 1.0 [14] 0x24: 1.2: Interface 2, alt 1: stereo, 16 bits, discrete frequencies are: 44100 48000

desc 1.0 [9] 0x05: addr 0x85 attrib 0x05 maxpkt 200 interval 1ms [IN] [Iso] [Asynchronous]refresh 0 synchaddress 0
desc 1.0 [7] 0x25: CS_ENDPOINT for attributes 0x1, lockdelayunits 0, lockdelay 0x0, has sampling-frequency control, does not have pitch control

desc 1.0 [9] 0x04: interface 3: alt 0 nept 1 class 0x3 subclass 0x0 proto 0 [hid.0.0] iinterface 0
desc 1.0 [9] 0x21: HID (bcd)0100 country 0 nhidclass 1 classdtype 0x22 dlen 50

desc 1.0 [7] 0x05: addr 0x81 attrib 0x03 maxpkt 3 interval 32ms [IN] [Interrupt]
Buttons on endpoint 1
Record on endpoint 5
Playback on endpoint 6
n = 0
setcontrol channels: Set alt 1
setcontrol resolution: Set alt 1
setcontrol channels: Set alt 1
setcontrol resolution: Set alt 1
Playback speed control, value 0
Record mute control not settable
Record volume control not settable
Record bass control not settable
Record mid control not settable
Record treble control not settable
Record equalizer control not settable
Record agc control not settable
Record delay control not settable
Record bassboost control not settable
Record loudness control not settable
Playback channels control, min 8, max 8, value 8
Playback resolution control, min 16, max 16, value 16
Record speed control, value 44100
Record mute control, min 0, max 0, step 1, value 0
Record volume control, min 0, max 0, step 1, values[1] 0  [2] 0  
Playback bass control not settable
Playback mid control not settable
Playback treble control not settable
Playback equalizer control not settable
Record agc control, min 0, max 0, step 1, value 0
Playback delay control not settable
Playback bassboost control not settable
Playback loudness control not settable
Record channels control, min 2, max 2, value 2
Record resolution control, min 16, max 16, value 16
Pitch control = ON
Setting discreetly variable playback speed to 44100
Setting playback speed to 44100 Hz; speed now 44100 Hz;Configuring playback endpoint for 44100 Hz
sent `ep 6 1 w 4 44100' to /dev/usb/0/ctl
Setting discreetly variable record speed to 44100
Setting record speed to 44100 Hz; speed now 44100 Hz;Configuring record endpoint for 44100 Hz
sent `ep 5 1 r 4 44100' to /dev/usb/0/ctl
setcontrol: control 0.1 not settable
sending `ep 1 bulk r 1 1' to /dev/usb0/1/ctl
buttonproc opening /dev/usb0/1/ep1data
term% io:<-Tversion tag 65535 msize 8216 version '9P2000'
io:->Rversion tag 65535 msize 4120 version '9P2000'
io:<-Tattach tag 12 fid 286 afid -1 uname okamoto aname 
io:->Rattach tag 12 qid (0000000000000000 0 d)
io:<-Twalk tag 12 fid 286 newfid 288 nwname 1 0:audio 
io:->Rwalk tag 12 nwqid 1 0:(0000000000000004 0 ) 
io:<-Twalk tag 12 fid 286 newfid 284 nwname 1 0:audioin 
io:->Rwalk tag 12 nwqid 1 0:(0000000000000005 0 ) 

term% ls -l /dev (only related examples )
---w--w--w- U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/audio
--rw-rw-rw- M 44 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:32 /dev/audioctl
--r--r--r-- U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/audioin
--rw-rw-rw- M 44 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:32 /dev/audiostat
d-r-xr-xr-x U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0
d-r-xr-xr-x U  0 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb1
--rw-rw-rw- M 44 okamoto okamoto       0 Sep  1 17:32 /dev/volume

term% ls -l /dev/usb0/1
--rw-rw-rw- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/ctl
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/ep1data
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/ep5data
---w--w--w- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/ep6data
--rw-rw-rw- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/setup
--r--r--r-- U 0 okamoto okamoto 0 Sep  1 17:09 /dev/usb0/1/status

term% cat /dev/audioctl
channels out 2 8 8
resolution out 16 16 16
speed'
speed out 44100
channels out 2 8 8
resolution out 16 16 16
speed in 44100
mute in 0 0 0 1
volume in '0 0' 0 0 1
agc in 0 0 0 1
channels in 2 2 2
resolution in 16 16 16

-----------end here-----


Kenji

From arnold@skeeve.com Thu Sep  2 08:14:21 2004
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:58:43 GMT
From: Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com>
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In article <6ffc831da45dcc04aa2839da7c75d259@davidashen.net>,
 <9fans@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>> I note from the article on the USACO programming contest in the
>> current Usenix magazine that one of chaps has written an implementation
>> of vi (the editor, not the mips simulator) in perl.
>> 
>> This is great news, as vi can now much more easily be ported
>> to other operating systems.
>
>A much more usable solution would be to just implement BSD C library,
>termcap, system calls and a C compiler in perl, so that anyone who needs 
>vi could just run perl and compile and run BSD vi on top of it. nvi is a good
>program, after all.

Somebody was working on a rewrite of all the posix shell level tools in
perl, "in order to make them more portable" or some such drivel.  The
people in this world with too much time on their hands should be using it
on something really useful, instead!
-- 
Aharon (Arnold) Robbins --- Pioneer Consulting Ltd.	arnold AT skeeve DOT com
P.O. Box 354		Home Phone: +972  8 979-0381	Fax: +1 206 350 8765
Nof Ayalon		Cell Phone: +972 50  729-7545
D.N. Shimshon 99785	ISRAEL

From boyd@insultant.net Thu Sep  2 08:14:23 2004
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i heard this soundbite on the BBC.  hmm ...
--
MGRS 31U DQ 52572 12604

From knapjack@gmail.com Thu Sep  2 08:14:24 2004
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:57:01 -0700
From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:48:55 +0200, boyd, rounin <boyd@insultant.net> wrote:
> i heard this soundbite on the BBC.  hmm ...

Though Linux may not have been the best choice, I'm not against it.

Software has become part of the infrastructure of most of the
governments of the world, and the thought of having that software
under such majority control by a single vendor (any single vendor, not
just the current one) is a pretty scary thought.

Helping destitute nations become self-supportive is a good thing, and
I think open source, royalty- and license-fee-free software is a good
foundation for building an infrastructure.

-Jack

If Excel is the #1 most-used spreadsheet in the world, which is #3?

From boyd@insultant.net Thu Sep  2 08:14:24 2004
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> Helping destitute nations become self-supportive is a good thing, and
> I think open source, royalty- and license-fee-free software is a good
> foundation for building an infrastructure.

oh i agree, but plan 9 would have been the right choice.

they're still getting 20 year old junk after all.

From newsham@lava.net Thu Sep  2 08:14:26 2004
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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:39:25 -1000 (HST)
From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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> > Helping destitute nations become self-supportive is a good thing, and
> > I think open source, royalty- and license-fee-free software is a good
> > foundation for building an infrastructure.
>
> oh i agree, but plan 9 would have been the right choice.

You're saying that plan 9 in its current state is the best choice for end
users in govt, business and personal use in third world countries?  Plan 9
is a great system by programmers for programmers, but it is hardly ready
for prime time.  Choosing linux, on the other hand, gives them something
that they can use right now.

> they're still getting 20 year old junk after all.

Linux has a lot of features in it that werent around in 1984.

Tim N.

From boyd@insultant.net Thu Sep  2 08:14:26 2004
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To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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	<Pine.BSI.4.58.0409011036220.23430@malasada.lava.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:16:36 +0200
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> Choosing linux, on the other hand, gives them something
> that they can use right now.

once they've configured the DNS & sendmail for starters ...

From forsyth@vitanuova.com Thu Sep  2 08:14:26 2004
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From: C H Forsyth <forsyth@vitanuova.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:45:22 +0100
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-vijvaoltttibopuwgkrsguyslr
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ah, but the UN is used to never-ending combat zones
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> Choosing linux, on the other hand, gives them something
> that they can use right now.

once they've configured the DNS & sendmail for starters ...
--upas-vijvaoltttibopuwgkrsguyslr--

From cross@math.psu.edu Thu Sep  2 21:03:20 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:45:22 BST."
	<511d54accff185c881f901dc98ca42c2@vitanuova.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:24:32 -0400
From: Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>
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C H Forsyth <forsyth@vitanuova.com> writes:
> ah, but the UN is used to never-ending combat zones

Hey!  Oh, wait...nevermind.

Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?

	- Dan C.

From ggm@apnic.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:20 2004
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so when the UN buys pens in bulk for use in the developing world, does it buy
gold-plated lalique designer-edition fountain pens, or bic disposables?

-George

From cross@math.psu.edu Thu Sep  2 21:03:20 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
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From: Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>
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George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net> writes:
> so when the UN buys pens in bulk for use in the developing world, does it buy
> gold-plated lalique designer-edition fountain pens, or bic disposables?

Beats me.  In the Marine Corps, we get pencils.

	- Dan C.

From 9nut@9netics.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:21 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:03:40 -0700
From: Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com>
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> so when the UN buys pens in bulk for use in the developing world, does it buy
> gold-plated lalique designer-edition fountain pens, or bic disposables?

I would guess whichever is cheaper to buy and to own. 

From ggm@apnic.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:21 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:13:05 +1000
From: George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:03:40 -0700 Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:

>> so when the UN buys pens in bulk for use in the developing world, does it buy
>> gold-plated lalique designer-edition fountain pens, or bic disposables?
>
>I would guess whichever is cheaper to buy and to own. 


you're too honest. they buy from the vendor who gives them the best kickback.

-George

-- 
George Michaelson       |  APNIC                 |  See you at APNIC 18
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From jas@corpus-callosum.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:21 2004
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From: Jeff Sickel <jas@corpus-callosum.com>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:15:32 -0500
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On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:24 PM, Dan Cross wrote:

> George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net> writes:
>> so when the UN buys pens in bulk for use in the developing world, 
>> does it buy
>> gold-plated lalique designer-edition fountain pens, or bic 
>> disposables?
>
> Beats me.  In the Marine Corps, we get pencils.

That's a good thing... lead/graphite doesn't wash away with 
water/salts/acids as easily.

For the larger picture: would folks at the UN even know that BSD, let 
alone Plan 9, exists?  I'd wager they don't as even people who have 
been exposed to alternative operating systems are likely to have never 
even heard of them.  Linux, for better or worse, has mindset 
market-share because people have been throwing enough money into the 
advertising realm to make the name/brand known.

To quote/paraphrase an old friend's words:

Microsoft learned long ago that it was better to spend a dollar on 
marketing than on development.

jas

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Thu Sep  2 21:03:21 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:38:47 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> For the larger picture: would folks at the UN even know that BSD, let 
> alone Plan 9, exists?  I'd wager they don't as even people who have 
> been exposed to alternative operating systems are likely to have never 
> even heard of them. 

today's pull brings another fortunes gem:

	(Okay, Plan 9 isn't Linux, but it's a close relative).

and unfortunately it's only funny because it's true -- people really
believe every other non-Microsoft OS nowadays is some offshoot of
Linux.  can't blame them though, nor expect everybody to run to the
store and pick up a unix history book...

From zigor@si.ehu.es Thu Sep  2 21:03:21 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
From: Zigor Salvador <zigor@si.ehu.es>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status: RO

Informaticiens Sans Fronti=C3=A8res is putting together a new Linux distr=
o to
support third world countries' special needs. It's called LIFE. More
info at http://isf.cern.ch, just in case you're curious.

Zigor

Quoting 'Informaticiens Sans Fronti=C3=A8res':

LIFE (Linux Integrated Free Environment)

ISF focuses exclusively on Free Open Source solutions. It doesn=E2=80=99t=
 make
sense to deliver platforms equipped with proprietory software in areas
where poverty and economical crisis makes it impossible or at least
extremely difficult to purchase or upgrade the software required to use
the resources. This is particularly true when considering that free OSS
software has reached an equal (if not higher) power and efficiency than
commercial.

LIFE is not just an operating system, but a complete environment,
bringing a full scale solution to cover a range of needs and
requirements. It is based on an Open Source Linux distribution
(Knoppix), and it features three user =E2=80=9Clevels=E2=80=9D (basic, ad=
vanced,
administrator). A basic user is shown only the applications needed for
basic tasks, and to learn the computing environment better. Typically a
basic desktop includes a web browser, a document and e-mail writer, and
an e-learning tool. Most basic users of cybercaf=C3=A9s only need to acce=
ss
e-mail or the web. In particular, we cope for situations with poor
connectivity by supplying a document and e-mail writer that can work
offline, avoiding to keep connected when accessing a mail provider on
the web for extensive periods of time. The e-learning tool must be able
to teach first time users their way through the system, and also to
teach illiterate users how to read, write and type. This is the first
step needed for a democratisation of ICT. Basic teaching kits will be
modular and targeted to different user ages. A =E2=80=9Cchild=E2=80=9D an=
d =E2=80=9Cadult=E2=80=9D
alphabetisation curricula will be provided as integral part of the
environment.




From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Sep  2 21:03:24 2004
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I've (trivially) added a "-f procdir" option to ps(1) so that I could
use a different source for the /proc information.  It would have been
as easy to spawn a new window and import the remote /proc in it, but
I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels they may want access to the
local and the remote /proc simultaneously.  Is it worth documenting
the option and submit a patch?

++L

From capt.nemo@gmail.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:25 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] /sys/src/cmd/ps.c
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <capt.nemo@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:45:59 +0200
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-imtynymwndtbrzefztnwkgrhgv
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You could have used also something like

rfork n
bind $1 /proc
shift
ps $*

without having to open a new window.

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I've (trivially) added a "-f procdir" option to ps(1) so that I could
use a different source for the /proc information.  It would have been
as easy to spawn a new window and import the remote /proc in it, but
I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels they may want access to the
local and the remote /proc simultaneously.  Is it worth documenting
the option and submit a patch?

++L
--upas-imtynymwndtbrzefztnwkgrhgv--

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  2 21:03:25 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:21:20 +0900
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> I feel I may very close to the goal...

It's very far from here to the goal, if any.
I wonder why people want such many channels for audio listening.
This makes very complicated topology, and then, hard to code them, 
and I'm going to abandon it. got tired!

Kenji

From rasputnik@hellooperator.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:25 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:10:27 +0100
From: Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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* Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> [0924 04:24]:
> C H Forsyth <forsyth@vitanuova.com> writes:
> > ah, but the UN is used to never-ending combat zones
> 
> Hey!  Oh, wait...nevermind.
> 
> Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
> to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?

Linux admins are two a penny?

-- 
Alas, I am dying beyond my means.
		-- Oscar Wilde, as he sipped champagne on his deathbed
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

From steve@quintile.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 10:11:16 +0100
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Subject: [9fans] 9ports+xvnc+9term -> black on black
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Hi,

Running the 9ports under current issue debain linux (2.6.8.1)
everything works fine from the VGA display but running under Xvnc
my 9term appears to draw black text against a black background.

If I start the 9term, type xclock in this black window I get an
xclock. So I assume the 9term is working ok, its just the unhelpfull
background colour. 

Anyone any ideas or am I on my own with Xvnc?

-Steve

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:07:51 GMT
From: Heiko Dudzus <heiko.dudzus@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] venti score types
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Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> As I understand it (and I'am sure I will be corrected if I'am wrong!)
> scores printed by the fossil console vac command are for the root
> of a piece of the dump history, eg. 2004, this with have a directory per
> dump and a plan9 filesystem below that.
> 
> The vac store you want for reinitialising fossil with is one which has
> a top level directory of active, archive and snapshot (snapshot will
> be empty as snapshots don't get as far as venti but I would expect the
> directory to be there.
> 
> You can see all this by putting the two different scores in two files
> and running vacfs on them.

Yes, I see.

Is it intended that the snap -a scores can't be figured out
subsequently? (e.g. if I didn't make a note of a score of last month)

Cheers, Heiko

From arnold@skeeve.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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From: Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com>
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> Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
> to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?

Quite seriously, why is *BSD "superior" to Linux?  How do you define
"superior"?  I would really like to know.  (Let's take it as granted
that OpenBSD is more "secure".  Fine.  What other criteria are there?)

I've been using Linux since the days of Redhat 4.0, circa 1997.  I find
it to be stable, full-featured (yes, this is a bug and a feature) and
to perform well.

The *only* issue I ever have with Linux is hardware support for either
very new or very proprietary hardware (monitors, network and video cards),
and that is usually solved with time.  The installation experience has
only gotten *better* over the years.

And the Linux dists come with *tons* of day-to-day useful software that
I would have to go out and find and build were I running a commercial
Unix system.

For many people, the reality is that they can't run Plan 9 for day to day
production use.  That means they have to run a *nix box.  So, given that
that is the world we're playing in, I'd rather run Linux than Solaris,
AIX, or HP-UX any day.  And since all I can afford are x86 boxes, that
limits me to Solaris, Linux and *BSD.  So, why should I switch to a
BSD system?

This IS NOT a flame.  I do not claim that Linux is perfect, the be-all,
end all, etc, nor that all GNU software is wonderful etc etc.  I would
merely like to understand what technical merits *BSD has that Linux
doesn't.

Thanks,

Arnold

From rasputnik@hellooperator.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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From: Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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* Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> [0940 10:40]:
> > Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
> > to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> > why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> > one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?
 
> Quite seriously, why is *BSD "superior" to Linux?  How do you define
> "superior"?  I would really like to know.

That's what we call 'an opinion'.
 
-- 
I'm all for computer dating, but I wouldn't want one to marry my sister.
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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> Quite seriously, why is *BSD "superior" to Linux?  How do you define
> "superior"?  I would really like to know.  (Let's take it as granted
> that OpenBSD is more "secure".  Fine.  What other criteria are there?)

That's not how I interpret the snippet you replied to.  The "superior"
platform would be Plan 9, the *BSD are mere alternatives to Linux.  In
my opinion, the *BSDs are "superior" in that they are better
coordinated, specially on the technical side, but that can be a
subjective call.  Plan 9 is unquestionably superior, no quotes
required.

There are other issues you raise and they deserve a response, if only
to clarify some of the opinions that arise on this list.

Firstly, there is no such thing as "full featured".  For all of 10000
packages (I'm guessing, but I think I'm pretty close) that NetBSD
offers, I still can't conveniently exchange a PowerPoint presentation
with a near infinite number of MS users unless I run some version of
Windows.  The same is valid even more for Visio (have I got the right
name?).  That is "full featured" even though Windows is lacking many
of the options (ethereal, say) of the Unix world.

Stable?  Linux is considerably less stable than the *BSDs, as it is
all too frequently updated.  Once again, this is both an asset and a
liability, but you have to allow that it is closer in spirit to the
Windows world (publish frequently) than the Unix world (stabilise).
The question that it raises is whether the Windows philosophy is more
sound than the Unix one _from_the_point_of_view_of_the_luser_.  As far
as the suppliers go, obsolescence is an asset, period.

> The *only* issue I ever have with Linux is hardware support for either
> very new or very proprietary hardware (monitors, network and video cards),
> and that is usually solved with time.  The installation experience has
> only gotten *better* over the years.

This weakness is a poor criticism to level at any OS competing with
Windows.  Only the tenacity of the developer base allows the likes of
Linux and the *BSDs to replicate with great difficulty what the
hardware developers supply free of any effort to the Windows user.
Often, the hardware developers intentionally put stumbling blocks in
the path of driver developers, something extremely hard to reconcile
with a free marketplace.  I'm not sure you're doing your cause much
justice by raising this particular issue, other than gaining sympathy
for the Linux and *BSD developers.  And, yes, I do appreciate that the
Linux developers are leading in this race, but that's through sheer
number, the *BSD device drivers are almost without fail better
designed and implemented than the Linux ones they admittedly imitate.

> For many people, the reality is that they can't run Plan 9 for day to day
> production use.  That means they have to run a *nix box.  So, given that
> that is the world we're playing in, I'd rather run Linux than Solaris,
> AIX, or HP-UX any day.  And since all I can afford are x86 boxes, that
> limits me to Solaris, Linux and *BSD.  So, why should I switch to a
> BSD system?

Straw man.  To paraphrase: "For many people, the reality is that they
can't run Linux for day to day production use".  Nor BSD, nor any
other poor Windows imitation, they have to have the real thing.  So
the question is not what ought to be recommended for the average user,
but what would promote better conditions, for some value of
"conditions".  On this mailing list, we all acknowledge that Plan 9 is
superior in some fashion to other offering, we don't all agree as to
what this really means.

We also understand that without a much larger developers community,
Plan 9 will stagnate, so we all pray that our favourite toy would
become more widespread.  But in my opinion it's another chimera, we
need to attract more sophisticated developers, keep the quality of the
system up, be less concerned about quantity.  As long as Plan 9 can
uniquely claim features such as a bullet-proof security, factotum,
venti, uniformity of the namespace etc., it stands a head above the
competitors.  It may not have a popular following, but then if one is
to judge by popular following, what can compete with Windows?  And,
for that matter, who would want to?

++L

From arnold@skeeve.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:26 2004
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From: Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com>
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Lucio,

> > Quite seriously, why is *BSD "superior" to Linux?  How do you define
> > "superior"?  I would really like to know.  (Let's take it as granted
> > that OpenBSD is more "secure".  Fine.  What other criteria are there?)
>
> That's not how I interpret the snippet you replied to.  The "superior"
> platform would be Plan 9, the *BSD are mere alternatives to Linux.

I can see that - I admit it wasn't clear in the original post.

> Plan 9 is unquestionably superior, no quotes required.

Agreed.

> Firstly, there is no such thing as "full featured".  For all of 10000
> packages (I'm guessing, but I think I'm pretty close) that NetBSD
> offers, I still can't conveniently exchange a PowerPoint presentation
> with a near infinite number of MS users unless I run some version of
> Windows.  The same is valid even more for Visio (have I got the right
> name?).  That is "full featured" even though Windows is lacking many
> of the options (ethereal, say) of the Unix world.

Full-featured is in the eye of the beholder (like most things); as
I expanded, I meant it as "lots of really useful programs already there
out of the box."

> Stable?  Linux is considerably less stable than the *BSDs, as it is
> all too frequently updated.

I should have stated my definition.  I meant "stable" as in "never crashes
unless the hardware is flakey."  I do see your point using your definition,
and thus that's one point of the kind I was looking for in favor of *BSD.

> > The *only* issue I ever have with Linux is hardware support for either
> > very new or very proprietary hardware (monitors, network and video cards),
> > and that is usually solved with time.  The installation experience has
> > only gotten *better* over the years.
>
> This weakness is a poor criticism to level at any OS competing with
> Windows.

It wasn't meant negatively; it was a statement of fact that, like it
or not, is a down point for Linux.  It does apply to all non-MS OS's,
true.

I live in Israel.  I can't just mosey on down to my local Circuit City
and pick out hardware that'll work with Linux.  I have a good relationship
with a wonderful computer store, but they have hardware that they like.
In the past, I've had monitor/video card/sound card issues, which were usually
solved by the next linux release.  More recently I had a wireless networking
card issue, where the box said "Linux" but it was a binary driver that
would only work for RH 9, not Fedora.  (Solved via linuxant.com, but
that's another story.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that overall, my experience has been
positive, but not picture perfect.  That's OK.

> And, yes, I do appreciate that the
> Linux developers are leading in this race, but that's through sheer
> number, the *BSD device drivers are almost without fail better
> designed and implemented than the Linux ones they admittedly imitate.

Point two in favor of *BSD.

> So the question is not what ought to be recommended for the average user,

I was asking for me personally, as a committed techy/Unix type. I wasn't
out to solve the world's problems. :-)

> We also understand that without a much larger developers community,
> Plan 9 will stagnate, so we all pray that our favourite toy would
> become more widespread.  But in my opinion it's another chimera, we
> need to attract more sophisticated developers, keep the quality of the
> system up, be less concerned about quantity.  As long as Plan 9 can
> uniquely claim features such as a bullet-proof security, factotum,
> venti, uniformity of the namespace etc., it stands a head above the
> competitors.  It may not have a popular following, but then if one is
> to judge by popular following, what can compete with Windows?  And,
> for that matter, who would want to?

Well said.

Thanks,

Arnold

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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:52:03 +0100
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] venti score types
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Russ posted a couple of scripts lastfossil and vacchain to 9fans.
These extract the last snap -a score and the chain of previous ones
from a running system.

Having said this you old vac scores arent very usefull, its the one
just before fossil crashed you really need...

-Steve

From ggm@apnic.net Thu Sep  2 21:03:27 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:52:41 +1000
From: George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
To: lucio@proxima.alt.za,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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>Firstly, there is no such thing as "full featured".  For all of 10000
>packages (I'm guessing, but I think I'm pretty close) that NetBSD
>offers, I still can't conveniently exchange a PowerPoint presentation
>with a near infinite number of MS users unless I run some version of
>Windows.  The same is valid even more for Visio (have I got the right
>name?).  That is "full featured" even though Windows is lacking many
>of the options (ethereal, say) of the Unix world.


I have just presented 3 .ppt at a meeting here in Fiji using OpenOffice, and
I both produced and presented them from OpenOffice, and also re-edited them
on Windows XP, with Office/XP.

I don't do animations, and I avoid some forms of computed graphics (piecharts)
so I admit there are limitations. It was not perfect. But the glitches were
within the limits defined of sharing .ppt between Office/97 and Office/XP.

And, the rate of improvement is faster than it was: the successive versions
of OpenOffice I have used have been improvements, each time.

I still think the presentations done as PDF, or magicgarden generally have
more substance over style. Or (in Simon Peyton Jones' sense, marginally more,
but still less than an OHP and paper and pencil)

But to address your specific complaint: of not being able to meaningfully share
powerpoint with MS users, I think you've over-stated it, or stated from old
(1+ years) experience. For me, its not the problem it was then.

cheers
	-George

From capt.nemo@gmail.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:27 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] venti score types
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <capt.nemo@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:09:26 +0200
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> Having said this you old vac scores arent very usefull, its the one
> just before fossil crashed you really need...

Fossil prints its vac on the console after a snap -a, if you copy the
console to a log file, and print or keep the log file vacs, you'll get
the vac of interest.

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Sep  2 21:03:27 2004
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> 
> I can see that - I admit it wasn't clear in the original post.
> 
Right, I had to look for it.  But I make no claim to be unbiased, I've
invested ten years on Plan 9, I'd like them to bear fruit.

> Full-featured is in the eye of the beholder (like most things); as
> I expanded, I meant it as "lots of really useful programs already there
> out of the box."
> 
Yes, I intentionally distorted your statement, because I fear that
Linux will become another religion, Protestantism to Windows' Roman
Catholicism, if you feel like analogies.  And I'm serious here, as
soon as high priests and unproven assumptions take over, anything
seems capable of becoming an issue of faith.

> 
> I should have stated my definition.  I meant "stable" as in "never crashes
> unless the hardware is flakey."  I do see your point using your definition,
> and thus that's one point of the kind I was looking for in favor of *BSD.
> 
Same issue, there are other aspects one needs to consider, actual
resiliance against system failure may be important to some, less so to
others.  I know of organisations where somebody expressly visits the
computer room on weekends to reboot the Windows servers.  I think it's
a joke, they would be highly offended if I pointed that out to them.

> It wasn't meant negatively; it was a statement of fact that, like it
> or not, is a down point for Linux.  It does apply to all non-MS OS's,
> true.
> 
> I live in Israel.  I can't just mosey on down to my local Circuit City
> and pick out hardware that'll work with Linux.  I have a good relationship
> with a wonderful computer store, but they have hardware that they like.
> In the past, I've had monitor/video card/sound card issues, which were usually
> solved by the next linux release.  More recently I had a wireless networking
> card issue, where the box said "Linux" but it was a binary driver that
> would only work for RH 9, not Fedora.  (Solved via linuxant.com, but
> that's another story.)
> 
>>From a South African perspective it is not very different.  And
perhaps it helps to look at this in more detail, as here is a very
critical issue.  It seems to me that the measurement is how much it
would cost to produce the missing software as and when the need
arises.  Given the Linux user/developers base, the cost is
considerably lower than for, say, NetBSD, with Plan 9 probably at the
very edge of that world.

It is possible that by making the framework in which device drivers
can be developed a lot simpler, as Plan 9 does, one can reduce the
cost somewhat, but that would still not make up for number of
developers, specially with idle hands.  Then, of course, there is the
pioneering, once Linux has been there, the *BSDs and Plan 9 will
certainly find it easier to follow.  (Hm, this need not apply only to
device drivers)

Of course, a change of culture that encourages hardware developers to
follow standards more closely and document their hardware with the
intent to facilitate driver development would make _all_ the
difference.  But that would require a chnage in the marketplace
vision.  The current interest in Linux may swing it, but it's more
likely to create merely another pole, as your experience illustrates.

> I was asking for me personally, as a committed techy/Unix type. I wasn't
> out to solve the world's problems. :-)
> 
Well, the context was that of the UN's investment in Linux, so you'll
have to forgive us, try to be more specific in future.

> Well said.
> 
Thank you.  It is not often that I feel I can drag my political views
here, they are not always well received and the replies are not often
of the type that encourages further discussion.  But I think that's a
part of the Plan 9 culture that one needs to accept.  It comes with
the territory, as a psychotherapist once suggested about a similar
situation.

++L

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> I don't do animations, and I avoid some forms of computed graphics (piecharts)
> so I admit there are limitations. It was not perfect. But the glitches were
> within the limits defined of sharing .ppt between Office/97 and Office/XP.

Well, I'm just going to disagree.  The _average_ user of PowerPoint
does not care that I may not be able to use the features he so dearly
loves.  You may well be able to produce a PowerPoint presentation and
OpenOffice will approximate PowerPoint as closely as damn, but it will
never suffice unless Microsoft feature-freezes their products.

You want Windows (and millions more than the numbers in the Linux
world do), you can't fish for Linux instead.

If y'all are curious, my answer is to add Remote Desktop to my
workstation and hide a Windows server in the computer room.  For my
most important client I did so on VXL Percios using NetBSD and a very
recent version of XFree86, but my dream is to do it in Plan 9.  Once
I've penetrated the marketplace's skin with Plan 9 thin clients, I can
place 9P2000 services wherever suitable.  It may be just a foible of
mine, but I'm also hoping to have Plan 9 provide Remote Desktop as a
service so that existing thin clients can access Plan 9 services
transparently.  Of course, it's not a popular route, but I have a
small installation to prove feasibility.  This NetBSD installation may
be able to fend off an impending Microsoft migration for the
foreseeable future.

++L

From capt.nemo@gmail.com Thu Sep  2 21:03:27 2004
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I thought you might have something to say about this ;-)
Any criticism/comment is very welcome.

http://lsub.org/ls/export/x10.pdf

BTW, there is a video demo of a modified Plan 9 system that we call
now Plan B. It's also at lsub.org.
Our new Plan B is a merge of Plan 9 and our previous edition of Plan B.
It's more of our attempt to get a system that adapts to changes.
The changes focus on the mount table, file access, and the file servers
used to provide services (graphics, command execution, etc.) we have not
changed (yet) the protocol (9P) for this new system. Maybe we will just keep
9P, since it works well and there are other things we'd like to change before.

thanks in advance for any comment

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Fri Sep  3 09:46:53 2004
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Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
> Russ posted a couple of scripts lastfossil and vacchain to 9fans.
> These extract the last snap -a score and the chain of previous ones
> from a running system.

Ah, thanks. And sorry for asking questions which were addressed a year
before. (my google query wasn't that good, I think)

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Fri Sep  3 09:46:53 2004
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From: Heiko Dudzus <heiko.dudzus@gmx.de>
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I am astonished how one affects the other. But scp can't place a file
into a local directory (with temporary bit).

term% chmod +t /usr/heiko/stuff
term% scp dudzus@tty.freeshell.org:~/Einladung-ET.ps stuff/
scp: can't create stuff/: 'stuff/' create without DMDIR
term%

But:
term% chmod -t /usr/heiko/stuff
term% scp dudzus@tty.freeshell.org:~/Einladung-ET.ps stuff/
term%

Not really a hard problem, but perhaps worth a note.

From sah@softcardsystems.com Fri Sep  3 09:46:53 2004
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> And the Linux dists come with *tons* of day-to-day useful software that
> I would have to go out and find and build were I running a commercial
> Unix system.

FreeBSD has linux binary compatibility.  Most of that "useful"
software is in the ports collection.

My affection for bsd over linux is two-fold.  Firstly, the
kernel is a mess.  If you've ever been on the linux kernel
mailing list for even a day you see that "development" is
nothing more than a thousand cooks tweaking concoctions to
throw into the stew.  You'll never see a 'design and
implementation' book for linux because you can't exposit
*how* the code works as there's almost no design.

This is my experience with the 2.4 kernel.  FreeBSD isn't
much better in places, but there are sweet spots.  I haven't
even cracked OpenBSD yet, which according to Geoff is
the cleanest of the lot.

Second, linux developers really want an ignorant user base.
The entire userland approach is to obfuscate hypothetical
complexity behind a new program and a dizzying array of
switches.  The ports collection is a simple example:

% cd /usr/ports/astro/sunclock
% make install
... (downloads and builds program)
% (done)

Compare that to the rpm -Uv -waitdoihaveallthedependencies
or even gentoo's attempted photocopy of the ports system
"portage" where you do everything behind an emerge program.
They take the learning curve out of one place, put it
in another, and call it an improvement because they have
something to put on sourceforge.  blech.

Both in the kernel and userland linux is all about
"doing things to you" instead of "doing things for you."

And every time I find a "new" program that won't write its
output to stdout I puke all over my desk.  Right after
flushing my TLBs a hundred times for good measure.

Sam

From rminnich@lanl.gov Fri Sep  3 09:46:54 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:26:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
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On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Cross wrote:

> Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry to
> push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?

Order of importance, with each thing decreasing at least 10x each time
- non-technical pubs
- technical pubs
- The Cool Table (as in grade school)
- third party apps
- good from a technical point of view
- superior design

so the last item is 1e-6 of the first item. Now you know how these things 
happen.

ron

From knapjack@gmail.com Fri Sep  3 09:46:55 2004
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From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
To: lucio@proxima.alt.za,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:21:39 +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za
<lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
> If y'all are curious, my answer is to add Remote Desktop to my
> workstation and hide a Windows server in the computer room.

My need for Citrix access finally drove me to swap out my home OS (yet again).

I think an RDP client for Plan 9 would be awesome.

-Jack

From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Sep  3 09:46:55 2004
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For me, as for somebody who uses computers actively enough, a good
OS is one that helps solve my everyday tasks efficiently without falling
into the trap of following the fashion of useless stupid features forced
upon us by commercial hardware vendors so that we always by faster
computers.

Linux is indistinguishable from Windows.

http://blogs.sun.com/roller/comments/dbaigent/Weblog/the_linux_ui_that_has

It is just another bloated OS with unstable kernel and bad performance.

Plan 9 is nice, but has numerous bugs here and there which need constant
fixing to get it work for my needs (I was fixing a couple per week during
my last intercourse with this OS -- the first one was in mid-nineties; it
was unusable at that time). It is here to prove its own superiority, not to
serve as a tool. 

4.4BSD family is the least inconvenient among usable ones. They still don't
want to be just another VMS Personal Edition (while Linux is there already,
with a lonely but fading exception of Debian); and they provide environment
convenient enough to do everyday's work.

For the everyday work of mine, a BSD is the tool (including my Fujitsu T1120
subnotebook with FreeBSD on it), and the rest of the zoo 
(Debian, Win 2000, Plan 9,  Solaris) are test platforms.  

It is better than Plan 9 because I don't have to debug its kernel to
do my day-to-day application programming; better than a recent Linux
because I don't have to adjust my code to performance traps of the
process scheduler and filesystem idiocy; and it provides a good
alternative to many bloated GNU unixish tools. Win2000 would be nice
if it didn't inherit all the faults of VMS along with some of its advantages.

David

From boris.maroshev@itcollege.ee Fri Sep  3 09:46:55 2004
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From: Boris Maryshev <boris.maroshev@itcollege.ee>
Organization: The Estonian IT College
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> Beats me.  In the Marine Corps, we get pencils.

a pencil is actually a very good choice because of
its reliablity.  NASA used to used them in their space
missions until the advent of the Fisher Space Pen:

    http://www.spacepen.com/usa/index2.htm

From forsyth@terzarima.net Fri Sep  3 09:46:55 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
From: Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:38:06 +0100
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-ngdezllzwylrjsfgjnsmtnygom
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it also usefully doubles as a pointed stick.

--upas-ngdezllzwylrjsfgjnsmtnygom
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> Beats me.  In the Marine Corps, we get pencils.

a pencil is actually a very good choice because of
its reliablity.  NASA used to used them in their space
missions until the advent of the Fisher Space Pen:

    http://www.spacepen.com/usa/index2.htm
--upas-ngdezllzwylrjsfgjnsmtnygom--

From boyd@insultant.net Fri Sep  3 09:46:56 2004
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From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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> My affection for bsd over linux is two-fold.  Firstly, the
> kernel is a mess.  If you've ever been on the linux kernel
> mailing list for even a day you see that "development" is
> nothing more than a thousand cooks tweaking concoctions to
> throw into the stew.  You'll never see a 'design and
> implementation' book for linux because you can't exposit
> *how* the code works as there's almost no design.

there is this, but for drivers only, but it does give a
lot of insight in how VSF linux is:

    http://www.xml.com/ldd/chapter/book/index.html

3 zillion ways to do things i don't want to do.

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Fri Sep  3 09:46:56 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:27:17 -0400
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] temporary bit prevents scp from file creation
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On Thu Sep  2 09:29:31 EDT 2004, heiko.dudzus@gmx.de wrote:
> I am astonished how one affects the other. But scp can't place a file
> into a local directory (with temporary bit).
> 
> term% chmod +t /usr/heiko/stuff
> term% scp dudzus@tty.freeshell.org:~/Einladung-ET.ps stuff/
> scp: can't create stuff/: 'stuff/' create without DMDIR
> term%
> 
> But:
> term% chmod -t /usr/heiko/stuff
> term% scp dudzus@tty.freeshell.org:~/Einladung-ET.ps stuff/
> term%
> 
> Not really a hard problem, but perhaps worth a note.

I've fixed it, as well as lnfs and nntpfs.
They all forgot that Qid.type is a bimask and not a value.

--jim

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	>They all forgot that Qid.type is a bimask and not a value.

That should be "bitmask".

From forsyth@terzarima.net Fri Sep  3 09:46:57 2004
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From: Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:40:01 +0100
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>>It is better than Plan 9 because I don't have to debug its kernel to
>>do my day-to-day application programming; better than a recent Linux

what were those kernel bugs?  i can't remember seeing (that many) patches
on the list or in patches

From wes@village.com Fri Sep  3 09:46:57 2004
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From: "Wes Kussmaul" <wes@village.com>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
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(c) Can't technology win just this once?
>
> Order of importance, with each thing decreasing at least 10x each time
> - non-technical pubs
> - technical pubs
> - The Cool Table (as in grade school)
> - third party apps
> - good from a technical point of view
> - superior design
>
> so the last item is 1e-6 of the first item. Now you know how these things
> happen.

Ron, you left out the top item:

- people with imagination and design sense and general intelligence not
being able to communicate effectively with / capture the imagination of the
masses of people less blessed, as for instance

- editors of non-technical pubs
- editors of technical pubs
- arbiters of The Cool Table
- creators of third party apps

There are so many natural thought leaders in the Plan 9 and *BSD
communities. We need more who, like Dan Geer and Bruce Schneier, are willing
to actually do what thought leaders do, add the voice of intelligent design
to the public debate. Otherwise the only voices they hear are those of
vendor PR flaks.

Wes Kussmaul

From boris.maroshev@itcollege.ee Fri Sep  3 09:46:57 2004
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From: Boris Maryshev <boris.maroshev@itcollege.ee>
Organization: The Estonian IT College
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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=D0=92 =D1=81=D0=BE=D0=BE=D0=B1=D1=89=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B8=D0=B8 =D0=BE=D1=82 =
=D0=9F=D1=8F=D1=82=D0=BD=D0=B8=D1=86=D0=B0 03 =D0=A1=D0=B5=D0=BD=D1=82=D1=
=8F=D0=B1=D1=80=D1=8C 2004 00:40 Charles Forsyth =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=
=D1=81=D0=B0=D0=BB(a):
> >>It is better than Plan 9 because I don't have to debug its kernel to
> >>do my day-to-day application programming; better than a recent Linux
>
> what were those kernel bugs?  i can't remember seeing (that many) patches
> on the list or in patches
=20
There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talk=
ing
about.
  -- John von Neumann

From geoff@collyer.net Fri Sep  3 09:46:58 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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From: geoff@collyer.net
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Back in the archives I explained why my preference is Plan 9 >> *BSD >
Linux >>> Windows.  With respect to BSDs and Linux, I find the BSD
kernels to be smaller and of higher quality.  An acquaintance observes
that Linux seems to attract application developers and the BSDs seem
to attrack kernel hackers, which may explain some of the difference.

Since the BSDs have increasingly good Linux emulation, it's hard to
see why one would run Linux (as opposed to swiping Linux applications
from a distribution) rather than a BSD.

Further, the BSDs maintain their systems as integrated systems, with
optional ports, as opposed to most Linux distributions (debian being
an exception but RedHat being guilty) that ship a collection of
modules with tight version-number dependencies: a kernel, user-mode
programs, some documentation, and their best wishes.  When you want to
add an application not in the distribution, you run into
version-number-dependency hell, since the world has already moved on
since the distribution was frozen, and the old versions of various
libraries you need have been expunged from the internet.  The BSD port
machinery at least automates the dependency resolution and the
maintainers seem to keep old versions around, so they can be found
when needed.

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Fri Sep  3 09:46:58 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:09:35 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> There are so many natural thought leaders in the Plan 9 and *BSD
> communities. We need more who, like Dan Geer and Bruce Schneier, are willing
> to actually do what thought leaders do, add the voice of intelligent design
> to the public debate. Otherwise the only voices they hear are those of
> vendor PR flaks.

i invite you to participate in any IT-related discussion on any public
forum on the internet (Slashdot is usually the best (and worst) place
to do it) and observe the reactions -- suddenly everyone is an expert
at everything and everyone has their own opinion which won't change no
matter how much sanity you throw at them.  not even people with proven
track record as being smart (such as the ones above) will be listened
to.  enough people will tell them 'you don't know anything, this is
how it's done...' to throw them off the conversation.

the only reasonable way to filter out the people who know what they're
talking about from the cheerleeding crowd is to throw in some serious
mathematics -- that's the only thing everyone is scared of :)

andrey, still a cheerleader :)

From ajft@ajft.org Fri Sep  3 09:46:58 2004
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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 08:44:56 +1000
From: Adrian Tritschler <ajft@ajft.org>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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| Charles Forsyth wrote:
|>>Beats me.  In the Marine Corps, we get pencils.

|> a pencil is actually a very good choice because of
|> its reliablity.  NASA used to used them in their space
|> missions until the advent of the Fisher Space Pen:

| it also usefully doubles as a pointed stick.

Don't say that or the airlines won't let me take a pencil on board an
aircraft!

They already won't allow metal cutlery (although Qantas seems to let you
have a metal spoon and fork, but a plastic knife).

I hate to think what the marines can do with a pencil if required...

Now what did that have to do with plan9 again?

	Adrian
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From ajft@ajft.org Fri Sep  3 09:46:58 2004
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From: Adrian Tritschler <ajft@ajft.org>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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Jack Johnson wrote:
| On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:21:39 +0200, lucio@proxima.alt.za
| <lucio@proxima.alt.za> wrote:
|
|>If y'all are curious, my answer is to add Remote Desktop to my
|>workstation and hide a Windows server in the computer room.
|
|
| My need for Citrix access finally drove me to swap out my home OS (yet
again).
|
| I think an RDP client for Plan 9 would be awesome.

http://www.rdesktop.org/

Get porting!  (I tried a while ago and didn't have enough
time/dedication/skill)

| -Jack

	Adrian
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From alexandr@babi.cz Fri Sep  3 09:46:58 2004
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maybe something interesting to put plan9 on it:
http://www.orionmulti.com/products/descriptions?sid=989e5223de0c5b01b1dc4149bd96337b

alexandr@babi.cz

From wes@village.com Fri Sep  3 09:46:59 2004
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From: "Wes Kussmaul" <wes@village.com>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
References: <4779b6712137df1bf318abd67be50e00@plan9.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:21:47 -0400
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> > We need more who, like Dan Geer and Bruce Schneier, are willing
> > to actually do what thought leaders do, add the voice of intelligent
design
> > to the public debate. Otherwise the only voices they hear are those of
> > vendor PR flaks.
>
> i invite you to participate in any IT-related discussion on any public
> forum on the internet (Slashdot is usually the best (and worst) place
> to do it) and observe the reactions -- suddenly everyone is an expert
> at everything and everyone has their own opinion which won't change no
> matter how much sanity you throw at them.

How much leverage do you get in Slashdot? How many journalists will you
influence?

For every Slashdot know-it-all there are ten thousand everyday users who
know they don't have the smarts or time or curiosity to dig into the
workings of their computer. They pick up a pc magazine or they call their
cousin who knows someone who actually posted something on Slashdot. Who from
the Plan 9 / Inferno / *BSD / Eros world is talking to these people?

> not even people with proven
> track record as being smart (such as the ones above) will be listened
> to.  enough people will tell them 'you don't know anything, this is
> how it's done...' to throw them off the conversation.

Bruce Schneier is very much listened to (and very well off from book sales
to the masses.) If he had chosen operating systems rather than firewalls and
intrusion detection systems to talk and write about, Plan 9 would be getting
a lot of attention from journalists and users. He does have a love for the
spotlight, which is a good thing for everybody.

> the only reasonable way to filter out the people who know what they're
> talking about from the cheerleeding crowd is to throw in some serious
> mathematics -- that's the only thing everyone is scared of :)

Serious mathematics such as that used in Blowfish and Twofish? You know, the
symmetric algorithms created by Bruce Schneier, one of which as I recall was
a finalist for AES...?

Schneier doesn't do that. He knows he is much smarter than his audience, and
his audience knows it too. They trust his judgement, and they appreciate the
fact that he takes the time to communicate with them in their language,
without rubbing it in by using math that they will never be able to follow.
He addresses another level of audience in his email newsletter, and uses
language and concepts appropriate to that somewhat more sophisticated
audience. He does refute the know-it-alls and charlatans, but his public
discourse isn't about confrontation, it's about enlightenment. That is
thought leadership.

Sorry, this is getting too flamey. It's meant to be constructive. Lots of
ordinary computer users would love to hear the Plan 9 story.

wk


From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Fri Sep  3 09:47:00 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:40:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Wes Kussmaul wrote:

> Sorry, this is getting too flamey. 
>

no worries -- we just ended up talking about different sets of target
audience...

to explain my previous post: i attempted to answer the question 'why
wasn't a "better" os than linux considered' and ended up with 'because
everyone in IT is a know-it-all' (not including any of you guys,
naturally :)

andrey

From cross@math.psu.edu Fri Sep  3 22:13:04 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:15:32 CDT."
	<1CDE98AA-FC9F-11D8-8DA0-003065E1714E@corpus-callosum.com> 
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:10:03 -0400
From: Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>
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Jeff Sickel <jas@corpus-callosum.com> writes:
> That's a good thing... lead/graphite doesn't wash away with 
> water/salts/acids as easily.

It also won't mark on a laminated map, which makes land nav with one
hard.  It also sucks when it breaks out in the field; sharpening a #2
pencil with a ka-bar is an interesting challenge.  Everyone ends up
taking pen anyway.

> For the larger picture: would folks at the UN even know that BSD, let 
> alone Plan 9, exists?  I'd wager they don't as even people who have 
> been exposed to alternative operating systems are likely to have never 
> even heard of them.  Linux, for better or worse, has mindset 
> market-share because people have been throwing enough money into the 
> advertising realm to make the name/brand known.
> 
> To quote/paraphrase an old friend's words:
> 
> Microsoft learned long ago that it was better to spend a dollar on 
> marketing than on development.

I think you're absolutely right.  That's what I find so depressing....

	- Dan C.

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	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:10:27 BST."
	<20040902091027.GC23610@lb.tenfour> 
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:13:09 -0400
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Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:
> > Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
> > to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> > why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> > one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?
> 
> Linux admins are two a penny?

At that level, are there really that many differences between Linux
and FreeBSD?  I was a Unix sysadmin for a bunch of years, and I usually
found it easier to keep BSD running than Linux, but at the end of the
day there wasn't too much difference between them.  Maybe I'm too old
school or something.

	- Dan C.

From cross@math.psu.edu Fri Sep  3 22:13:04 2004
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Aharon Robbins <arnold@skeeve.com> writes:
> 
> > Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
> > to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
> > why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
> > one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?
> 
> Quite seriously, why is *BSD "superior" to Linux?  How do you define
> "superior"?  I would really like to know.  (Let's take it as granted
> that OpenBSD is more "secure".  Fine.  What other criteria are there?)

Well, that's an interesting question you've raised.  My criteria are
organization and maturity of the source base, quality of the source
code itself, design direction, and packaging of the system.  It's been
my experience that Linux distributions aren't put together well, and
the quality of the source code (particularly in the kernel: there be
dragons) varies wildly.  Some is quite good, while some is just
downright nasty.  I guess I've around in enough open source packages
that come as standard parts of most Linux distributions to be
suspicious of anything I find in there, while the BSD code tends to
be of uniformly higher quality and show a greater attention to
detail.

However, that might not be a metric anyone cares about.  After all, if
Linux lets someone get their job done more efficiently than BSD, then
who cares how well the kernel is implemented on one versus the other?
Maybe that's the real, or at least the more important, issue.

Regardless, my point wasn't to specifically say that BSD is technically
superior to Linux (though I do think that it is), but rather to ask why
the decision wasn't made on technical merits.  I think it's safe to
assume that there *are* technically superior operating systems out
there.  An open source version of BeOS might have much more impact
than Linux, for instance; why wouldn't the UN push that?

One metric I've used to judge Unix systems is the sanity of their
`rc' file structure.  Systems with complex rc files that turn out
fragile messes tend to be fragile messes.  Most Linux distributions
have adopted System V run levels, and have further implemented
them with every ounce of complexity one could imagine.  The result
is a fragile mess.  Compare to, say, OpenBSD which sticks with good
ol' /etc/rc and one or two friends.

> I've been using Linux since the days of Redhat 4.0, circa 1997.  I find
> it to be stable, full-featured (yes, this is a bug and a feature) and
> to perform well.

I used Linux in the pre 1.0 days, around 1993 or 1994, and ditched it
for BSD and never looked back.  However, recently I was considering
whether it'd be useful to use it for some projects I wanted to play
with.  I'm tempted, but am not sure I can fully understand it enough
to configure it the way I'd like.  Thus, I'm really tempted to stick
with FreeBSD instead.

> The *only* issue I ever have with Linux is hardware support for either
> very new or very proprietary hardware (monitors, network and video cards),
> and that is usually solved with time.  The installation experience has
> only gotten *better* over the years.

I've had random crashes and found it difficult to configure it to do
things RedHat or Suse haven't anticipated.

> And the Linux dists come with *tons* of day-to-day useful software that
> I would have to go out and find and build were I running a commercial
> Unix system.

Oh, good heavens; at this stage in the game I'd never consider going
back to Commercial Unix unless I had some very good reason.

> For many people, the reality is that they can't run Plan 9 for day to day
> production use.  That means they have to run a *nix box.  So, given that
> that is the world we're playing in, I'd rather run Linux than Solaris,
> AIX, or HP-UX any day.  And since all I can afford are x86 boxes, that
> limits me to Solaris, Linux and *BSD.  So, why should I switch to a
> BSD system?

Well, I'd tell them to run a Macintosh instead.  But I agree with you
that I'd probably take Linux on x86 over commercial Unix on proprietary
hardware.  Regardless, I'm happy with my Macintosh, and I'm not looking
back at FreeBSD for a desktop system.  I just don't need or want it.
The fact that Linux ships with something like pine doesn't do much for
me (or that I can install it easily via the BSD ports collection).
Mail.app is nice for me to use, and I hope to never be stuck with a
goofy curses-based mail reader again....

> This IS NOT a flame.  I do not claim that Linux is perfect, the be-all,
> end all, etc, nor that all GNU software is wonderful etc etc.  I would
> merely like to understand what technical merits *BSD has that Linux
> doesn't.

Argh!  Burn the heretic!  (Just kidding!)

That's fine.  I hope I've given somewhat decent answers to reasonable
questions.

	- Dan C.

From ggm@apnic.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:04 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:38:42 +1000
From: George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:13:09 -0400 Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu> wrote:

>Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:
>> > Seriously, though, I can understand why they might not be in a hurry
>> > to push something like Plan 9, but (a) if this is funding new development,
>> > why not pick a technically superior platform?  (b) why Linux?  Why not
>> > one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this once?
>> 
>> Linux admins are two a penny?
>
>At that level, are there really that many differences between Linux
>and FreeBSD?  I was a Unix sysadmin for a bunch of years, and I usually
>found it easier to keep BSD running than Linux, but at the end of the
>day there wasn't too much difference between them.  Maybe I'm too old
>school or something.
>
>	- Dan C.

the marginal OT here is that since Free and Net BSD both adopted a SYSV rc.d/
form (albiet very mangled) with dependency chaining, within certain limits
no, the admin differences are scant and about flavour for many things. betwixt
the penguin and the cute devil.

but of course, when it breaks, the POLA for either side can be broken hunting
for hints on how this OS does task <x> 

problem is that we're dumbing down everything these days. an admin coming from
Linux probably expects a GUI to do stuff. and I mean G-UI. While NetBSD and
FreeBSD have tiny amounts of UI to admin stuff, (nothing much as AIX for instance)
the vast majority of admin is still vi on a file. 

So you can find that the skillset to keep an L-box running is lower, cheaper
than to keep a B-box running, absent major problems. YMMV.

-George

From russcox@gmail.com Fri Sep  3 22:13:05 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:47:07 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ports+xvnc+9term -> black on black
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> Anyone any ideas or am I on my own with Xvnc?

I run 9term inside VNC with Debian Linux on both
sides all the time with no problems.  I am using the
"vncserver" and "xtightvncviewer" packages.

Russ

From russcox@gmail.com Fri Sep  3 22:13:05 2004
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> I've (trivially) added a "-f procdir" option to ps(1) so that I could
> use a different source for the /proc information.  It would have been
> as easy to spawn a new window and import the remote /proc in it, but
> I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels they may want access to the
> local and the remote /proc simultaneously.  Is it worth documenting
> the option and submit a patch?

i'd rather you just used bind.
next all the debuggers will 
need the flag too.  where will
it stop?

we have shorthands like /proc
and /dev/mouse and the like
for a reason.

From cross@math.psu.edu Fri Sep  3 22:13:05 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:26:04 MDT."
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0409020824230.11568-100000@maxroach.lanl.gov> 
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:53:07 -0400
From: Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>
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ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov> writes:
> Order of importance, with each thing decreasing at least 10x each time
> - non-technical pubs
> - technical pubs
> - The Cool Table (as in grade school)
> - third party apps
> - good from a technical point of view
> - superior design
> 
> so the last item is 1e-6 of the first item. Now you know how these things 
> happen.

Oh great.  ``The Wall Street Journal says it's the next big thing!
Quick!  Ship it to Haiti!''  Yeah, that's progress.

So an anthropology professor who taught at Columbia told me a story
about UNICEF in a ``development'' project in India somewhere.  They
decided to do away with the stair-step system usd to access a well in
some remote village because they thought the idea of people crawling
down into the well to get their water wasn't very hygenic.  So, they
walled up the stairwell leading into the well and `purified' the water
source with a bunch of chemicals.  Patting themselves on the back for
this service to mankind, they proceeded to leave --- without putting a
bucket mechanism in the well for the people to get their water.  It
didn't take very long for the wall they'd put up to get torn down, much
to the dismay of the local UN reps.

She told us about another project where a bunch of flushable toilets
were installed *in the middle of a village* somewhere.  UNICEF couldn't
figure out why no one was using them....

	- Dan C.

From cross@math.psu.edu Fri Sep  3 22:13:05 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:27:27 +0200."
	<02e601c49122$e9b3d950$79fa7d50@SOMA> 
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"boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net> writes:
> a pencil is actually a very good choice because of
> its reliablity.  NASA used to used them in their space
> missions until the advent of the Fisher Space Pen:

Oh, what the hell.  This is way off topic, but....

It's also a good weapon of opportunity.  So's a pen for that matter,
but a standard wooden #2 pencil has certain advantages in that arena.
Then again, I'd rather have an e-tool, but hey.

The Fisher Space Pen is pretty neat.  :-)

	- Dan C.

From boyd@insultant.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:05 2004
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From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
References: <200409030300.i8330MJ18212@augusta.math.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
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> Then again, I'd rather have an e-tool, but hey.

sharpened, 'natch.

> The Fisher Space Pen is pretty neat.  :-)

yup.  fits nicely into the CWU-36/P shoulder pocket.

From sah@softcardsystems.com Fri Sep  3 22:13:06 2004
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Status:   

Boy, that doesn't look hot.  or loud.  or both.

Power Consumption - DS-96 1500W at wall (peak)

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, alexandr wrote:

> maybe something interesting to put plan9 on it:
> http://www.orionmulti.com/products/descriptions?sid=989e5223de0c5b01b1dc4149bd96337b
>
> alexandr@babi.cz
>
>

From newsham@lava.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:06 2004
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From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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> Boy, that doesn't look hot.  or loud.  or both.

   <50 dba!

From knapjack@gmail.com Fri Sep  3 22:13:06 2004
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:39:51 -0700
From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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Status:   

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:09:35 -0600, andrey mirtchovski
<mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> to do it) and observe the reactions -- suddenly everyone is an expert
> at everything and everyone has their own opinion which won't change no
> matter how much sanity you throw at them.

That's one thing I like about this list: no matter how biased at least
some of us are, we seem ready to listen to some new sanity.

Or insanity.  Hm.  Maybe we'll just listen to anything.  As opposed to
pretending to listen.

> the only reasonable way to filter out the people who know what they're
> talking about from the cheerleeding crowd is to throw in some serious
> mathematics -- that's the only thing everyone is scared of :)

Hey, just talking about talking about serious mathematics makes me scared.

-Jack, serious math weenie

From ggm@apnic.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:06 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:52:22 +1000
From: George Michaelson <ggm@apnic.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] cluster in sigle case
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Status:   

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:02:04 -1000 (HST) Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote:

>> Boy, that doesn't look hot.  or loud.  or both.
>
>   <50 dba!

1500watts at the wallplug is going to make a hot cable.  I've met domestic
wiring which shat itself on a 3 bar heater..

-George

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Fri Sep  3 22:13:07 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] cluster in sigle case
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Status:   

> Boy, that doesn't look hot.  or loud.  or both.
> 
> Power Consumption - DS-96 1500W at wall (peak)
> 

"we've only got the 12-cpu motherboard ready, but the 96-cpu box
should be pretty easy -- just put 8 of them together!"

there be dragons, i say (see three paragraphs above the "green
computing" section):

	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/30/orion_delivers_personal_cluster/

From dvd@davidashen.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:07 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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Status:   

>>>It is better than Plan 9 because I don't have to debug its kernel to
>>>do my day-to-day application programming; better than a recent Linux
> 
> what were those kernel bugs?  i can't remember seeing (that many) patches
> on the list or in patches

The patches were not here because it was partly before the patch utility 
had been made working and the list didn't like my ape/diff+ape/patch submittions. Partly after I lost interest in Plan9 as in production system for my programming. Strictly speaking, they are not in the kernel expect for a patch for my specimen of nvidia which didn't like something (I don't remember exactly what, can go
through the patches).

They are in: kfs -- the kfs as it is now and as it was half a year ago cannot
recover cleanly from a filesystem crash. I've modified the code so that it
can. Network libraries -- a few buffer overruns in various buffers which I
stubmled upon due to too long host names in my stress test; don't exactly
remember what else but can try and go through the patches. My iTuner Plan9
box kept hanging  until I found what I thought was a race related to fossil
fs and changed the code so that it does not. It does not hang now.

Smaller fixes include:

 rewriting the code that parses various configuration
files so that I at least understand what is going on -- for example, the timezone
file requires extra blank line in the end if numerical timezone adjustments
are absent; and the zone name is of fixed length (3 characters), while the
time zone I am in (AMST right now) is four characters long. ndb configuration
parses insanely, and experience with Plan9 is actually what made me think
that XML configuration is good -- the syntax is hard too read, but at least
it is predictable -- you don't have to use acid to understand configuration.

My acme mail keeps stopping working after a few days, saying that it
cannot execute a directory, I didn't yet find time to fix it, I will because I
still need Plan9 working as an exotic platform for testing.

Wiki code, both the server and the acme plugin, was unsuitable for any
language but English, and contained many bugs which rendered it unusable -
I rewrote significant parts of the code to make it working.

C compiler's parser gives occasionally error messages which, while indicate
errors, are completely unrelated to errors' sources -- I reported that to the
list, you can browse the source archive.


Overall, my feeling that everytime I start doing something less trivial than ls
(which displays the same file several times on occasion, but it is not a bug,
but simply a wrong implementation of globbing in rc), I have to fix a few
glitches here and there. This is not hard -- I am used to do it in some of
the programs I use, but it is annoying.

The main advantage of FreeBSD is that when I bought that Fujitsu T1120,
I only had to add the identifier of my decoder to ac97.c, tweak ACPI code
a bit so that it turns off power on shutdown (actually I just merged in the
changes from the CURRENT branch); additionally, if my memory does not
betray me, I had a few hard hours forcing mono to install, and finally 
changed the gacutil's code a bit on a nearby Linux machine. That was all,
it happened three months ago, and I didn't touch others' code in FreeBSD
since then; I just use it.

The main problem with Plan9 is that I cannot just use it; it does not work
without fixing.

David

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Fri Sep  3 22:13:07 2004
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To: russcox@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] /sys/src/cmd/ps.c
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:29:01 +0200
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Status:   

> i'd rather you just used bind.
> next all the debuggers will 
> need the flag too.  where will
> it stop?
> 
That was the intention in asking first.  Without wanting to be purely
argumentative, I believe that enhancing ps(1) does not mandate
enhancing the debuggers, although there may be other mundane utilities
that might require a similar extension.  It is not large, complex or
error prone (give or take that psu(1) has a minute amount of trouble
with it).  So _I'm_ willing to draw the line, if anyone else feels a
similar desire.

> we have shorthands like /proc
> and /dev/mouse and the like
> for a reason.

And a good reason it is too, but I think it is unnecessarily
restrictive to compel its use under all circumstances.  On the other
hand, we still have our "arbitres elegantiarum" (I hope my Latin isn't
letting me down) to lay down the rules and we ought to listen to them.

++L

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Fri Sep  3 22:13:09 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:22:28 +0200
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Status:   

> They are in: kfs -- the kfs as it is now and as it was half a year ago cannot
> recover cleanly from a filesystem crash. I've modified the code so that it
> can. Network libraries -- a few buffer overruns in various buffers which I
> stubmled upon due to too long host names in my stress test; don't exactly
> remember what else but can try and go through the patches. My iTuner Plan9
> box kept hanging  until I found what I thought was a race related to fossil
> fs and changed the code so that it does not. It does not hang now.
> 
I, for one, would be very grateful to have such issues addressed.
Please let me encourage you to submit the fixes.  Or even just the
issues, if necessary.

> Smaller fixes include:
> 
>  rewriting the code that parses various configuration
> files so that I at least understand what is going on -- for example, the timezone
> file requires extra blank line in the end if numerical timezone adjustments
> are absent; and the zone name is of fixed length (3 characters), while the
> time zone I am in (AMST right now) is four characters long. ndb configuration
> parses insanely, and experience with Plan9 is actually what made me think
> that XML configuration is good -- the syntax is hard too read, but at least
> it is predictable -- you don't have to use acid to understand configuration.
> 
Again, I think I am not alone in wishing for a more robust Plan 9
distribution, please let the list know what is needed or desirable.

> My acme mail keeps stopping working after a few days, saying that it
> cannot execute a directory, I didn't yet find time to fix it, I will because I
> still need Plan9 working as an exotic platform for testing.
> 
I use acme mail almost exclusively and have had no such trouble,
perhaps it has already been fixed?  I have a niggling suspicion it
has.

> Wiki code, both the server and the acme plugin, was unsuitable for any
> language but English, and contained many bugs which rendered it unusable -
> I rewrote significant parts of the code to make it working.
> 
Etc.

This list has seen its share of arrogance displayed, but I'm not aware
that genuine concerns have ever been dismissed out of hand (give or
take such judgement calls as Rob Pike's total rejection of APE) and I
really would appreciate your submission of any and all failures,
preferably with fixes where possible.

Speaking purely for myself, but hoping not to be just a voice in the
wilderness.

++L

From forsyth@terzarima.net Fri Sep  3 22:13:09 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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>>that XML configuration is good -- the syntax is hard too read, but at least
>>it is predictable

it depends where you put the spaces and newlines in that!

From wes@village.com Sat Sep  4 13:31:17 2004
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From: "Wes Kussmaul" <wes@village.com>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
References: <4137A0DA.3080900@babi.cz><Pine.LNX.4.60.0409022325001.12629@athena><Pine.BSI.4.58.0409021800440.23430@malasada.lava.net>
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> 1500watts at the wallplug is going to make a hot cable.  I've met domestic
> wiring which shat itself on a 3 bar heater..

That's 1500W for the 96 processor machine. If you're going to make a
commitment to acquire that much processing power, surely you can make a
commitment to installing a 30 amp circuit. If it's in a house, use one phase
of an electric dryer circuit (and try to remember not to run the dryer and
the computer at the same time.)

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep  4 13:31:17 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:10:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] cluster in sigle case
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On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> "we've only got the 12-cpu motherboard ready, but the 96-cpu box
> should be pretty easy -- just put 8 of them together!"

their software picture sucks as well. Diskless nodes with NFS root. What
planet have those guys been on? 

ron

From Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl Sat Sep  4 13:31:17 2004
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:11:16 +0100."
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Just some questions:

could there be funny background colors being set in your xrdb (Xdefaults)?

When you select some text with the mouse, any change in color?

My vnc server and/or client have some options regarding
the use of colors (numbers of them or something like that),
does playing with that makes a difference?

(I have no problems using 9term on solaris Xvnc
 with win98 and solaris viewers, both with vnc 3.? and 4.0(?),
 I use 'use all available colors' in the vnc client options)

Axel.

> Running the 9ports under current issue debain linux (2.6.8.1)
> everything works fine from the VGA display but running under Xvnc
> my 9term appears to draw black text against a black background.
> 
> If I start the 9term, type xclock in this black window I get an
> xclock. So I assume the 9term is working ok, its just the unhelpfull
> background colour. 





From steve@quintile.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:20 2004
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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 17:47:26 +0100
To: russcox@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] 9ports+xvnc+9term -> black on black
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> I run 9term inside VNC with Debian Linux on both
> sides all the time with no problems.  I am using the
> "vncserver" and "xtightvncviewer" packages.

Mmm, I guess the problem is to do with xvnc, or perhaps
using a display number !=0 ?

If you open two windows and in the first type:
	Xvnc :99 -once -geometry 1024x768 -localhost -rfbport 5999 &
	sleep 1
	rio  &

and in the second type
	vncviewer localhost:99

you will get rio, but when you sweep out a 9term window it will
be black (well, mine is). Acme and sam(term) also appear broken
but if you type at the window, eg xterm, things seem to work.

I am not just grumbling at random, I will look into it, I just
want confirmation that its a bug and not my finger trouble.

-Steve

From knapjack@gmail.com Sat Sep  4 13:31:20 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:48:46 -0700
From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:49:32 +0100, Charles Forsyth
<forsyth@terzarima.net> wrote:
> >>that XML configuration is good -- the syntax is hard too read, but at least
> >>it is predictable
> 
> it depends where you put the spaces and newlines in that!

Someone here suggested a good alternative to XML a while back, but I
can't find it in the archives.  Could someone point me in the right
direction?

-Jack

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep  4 13:31:20 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:52:58 -0600 (MDT)
From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Jack Johnson wrote:

> Someone here suggested a good alternative to XML a while back, but I
> can't find it in the archives.  Could someone point me in the right
> direction?

S-expressions. We've had quite a few people write to us and pick up Matt's 
s-expression library, in many cases replacing messy XML with simple 
s-expressions.

ron

From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:21 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:22:21 +0500
From: dvd@davidashen.net
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> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Jack Johnson wrote:
>=20
>> Someone here suggested a good alternative to XML a while back, but I
>> can't find it in the archives.  Could someone point me in the right
>> direction?
>=20
> S-expressions. We've had quite a few people write to us and pick up Mat=
t's=20
> s-expression library, in many cases replacing messy XML with simple=20
> s-expressions.

You are saying it with confidence of someone who has just invented new
elegant notation =E2=80=94 s-expressions =E2=80=94 to replace messy XML. =
The use of=20
s-expressions for configuration and serialization was one of the major
causes of failure of Lisp as a mainstream engineering tool.

XML is ugly, messy, inelegant and a clear demonstration of bad taste
of its creators.  Being such a bloody mess, it manifestly solves a
number of problems which were unsolved for the long time before wide
adoption of XML-based techniques.  One has now powerful and uniform
tools to operate on the tree model =E2=80=94 much more powerful than Lisp
offers for lists =E2=80=94 and completely automated serialization and par=
sing
for data and text markup.  XML is bad, but it is better than anything
used for the same purpose before it.  Or instead of it.

When every configuration file in a system has its own configuration synta=
x,
and the syntax is not specified anywhere but in the source code, and slig=
ht
changes to the source code invalidate the syntax in marginal cases, and t=
ypos
and bugs in the configurations are not reported in any way but by mystica=
lly
unexpected behavour of a program which used to work just yersterday and
only a slight change has been made to the string tokenizer =E2=80=94 and =
it is how
things happen, unfortunately, in the dream OS of most subscribers of this
list =E2=80=94 then the bloody mess of XML wins.

David Tolpin

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep  4 13:31:21 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 13:18:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 dvd@davidashen.net wrote:

> You are saying it with confidence of someone who has just invented new
> elegant notation =E2=80=94 s-expressions =E2=80=94 to replace messy XML=
. The use of=20
> s-expressions for configuration and serialization was one of the major
> causes of failure of Lisp as a mainstream engineering tool.

Actually, I'm saying it with the confidence of someone who's been using=20
them for 5 years now to monitor clusters ranging in size from 4 nodes to=20
1408 nodes, at far higher data rates than anything else I've seen or used=
.=20

It's worked for me.=20

Interestingly enough, a number of projects that were XML-based are now=20
S-expression based, so I guess it works for them too.=20

ron

From forsyth@terzarima.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:22 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
From: Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net>
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:53:07 +0100
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>>Interestingly enough, a number of projects that were XML-based are now=20
>>S-expression based, so I guess it works for them too.=20

several of us have used non-xml syntax (eg, Xduce) even when one
of the possible physical representations might be xml.  the scanner
is tiny, the syntax can be used directly in a programming language withou=
t
itching or retching, and what matters is the underlying abstraction anywa=
y.
xml provides (slightly weird) trees; s-expressions are trees not lists.
all of the non-xml forms i know seem to be clear cut about whether a
character is or is not part of a string.  i like the precision, myself.

>>adoption of XML-based techniques.  One has now powerful and uniform
>>tools to operate on the tree model =E2=80=94 much more powerful than Li=
sp
>>offers for lists =E2=80=94 and completely automated serialization and p=
arsing

i'm fairly sure s-expressions are in fact trees, not lists.
in practice, lisp programs have operated on tree structures as long as i =
can remember,
and in fact, given the code is data approach of some lisp programs,
including lisp compilers, that's surely just the point.

the power comes from tree operations, not the syntax of the tree
representation (but see below).
many forms of powerful tree processing, including tree automata, were
done long before xml or even sgml came along.
in fact, when xml came along, i applied tree automata techniques i'd used
years before to try to get a handle on it (as did many others).

it would be fair to say that xml's providing a dtd
was an advance.  (it was SGML really, but by eliminating `&' XML
eliminated a real nuisance.)  fortunately, that helpful step was subseque=
ntly
itself eliminated by inventing Xschema, so i don't need to be all that fa=
ir!

as a nod towards joining the two camps, there was a pleasant article
in Dr Dobbs in March, that purported in the title to be about `fostering =
little languages'
but was really a cunningly disguised way of getting people to stop
using XML directly (let alone XSLT) and start using lisp and s-expression=
s.

they didn't mention Plan 9, but then again, neither have we.

From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:22 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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> Actually, I'm saying it with the confidence of someone who's been using=
=20
> them for 5 years now to monitor clusters ranging in size from 4 nodes t=
o=20
> 1408 nodes, at far higher data rates than anything else I've seen or us=
ed.=20
>=20
> It's worked for me.=20
>=20
> Interestingly enough, a number of projects that were XML-based are now=20
> S-expression based, so I guess it works for them too.=20
>=20

This because the fashion wears out a bit =E2=80=94 things which should no=
t be done
in mixed-content markup instead of plain attributed lists are not. But th=
ose
are minority of cases.

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep  4 13:31:22 2004
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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:52:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: ron minnich <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
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On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 dvd@davidashen.net wrote:

> This because the fashion wears out a bit =E2=80=94 things which should =
not be done
> in mixed-content markup instead of plain attributed lists are not. But =
those
> are minority of cases.

based on the measurement of XY projects that do zzz with qxr and SNR of=20
0 ... or just an unsubtianted claim?

I can only relate my own experience and that of others I know, I won't=20
claim anything else. But I'm not sure I buy the 'minority of cases'=20
argument.

Now, on an emotional level, I will claim that XML fell out of the Ugly
Tree and hit every branch on the way down. But I can't substantiate that=20
one.

ron

From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:23 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 02:11:57 +0500
From: dvd@davidashen.net
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>>>Interestingly enough, a number of projects that were XML-based are now 
>>>S-expression based, so I guess it works for them too. 
> 
> several of us have used non-xml syntax (eg, Xduce) even when one
> of the possible physical representations might be xml.  the scanner
> is tiny, the syntax can be used directly in a programming language without
> itching or retching, and what matters is the underlying abstraction anyway.

How widely is Xduce used?

> xml provides (slightly weird) trees; s-expressions are trees not lists.

Everything is a tree. At the time of SGML, some used to define SGML syntax
to be parentheses based, that is, s-expressions you like so much. But see below.


> all of the non-xml forms i know seem to be clear cut about whether a
> character is or is not part of a string.  i like the precision, myself.

> the power comes from tree operations, not the syntax of the tree
> representation (but see below).

The power comes from both. Not having to think about a parser is a great
relief.

> it would be fair to say that xml's providing a dtd
> was an advance.  

The opposite. The fact XML does NOT need a DTD is one of its most
important advantages, and that is why it only has one lexical syntax
instead of many.

(it was SGML really, but by eliminating `&' XML
> eliminated a real nuisance.)  fortunately, that helpful step was subsequently
> itself eliminated by inventing Xschema, so i don't need to be all that fair!

There is also Relax NG, http://relaxng.org/ .

> but was really a cunningly disguised way of getting people to stop
> using XML directly (let alone XSLT) and start using lisp and s-expressions.

Yes, that's useful sometimes; in my Relax NG (compat syntax) based XML
validator I use embedded Scheme interpreter for extensible data types
library; the library is based on complete implementation of XML Schema
Unicode regular expressions I wrote in r5rs scheme.

Different tools are good for different jobs. But this is not because s-expressions
are better than XML. XML is a tree model and a serialization format; the former
gives tools for validation, the latter gives tools for parsing and generation. Both
work amazingly well; in cases when neither is necessary and a different syntax
is preferrable, for example, for human perception, a different syntax can be
used. 

XML with its data model and serialization format is the best available solution
for most tasks. Where human eyes and brain are involved, parentheses- or
curly-braces-based syntax is frequently used; with equivalent XML representation for the ease of validation and interchange convenience.

XML is like automatic garbage collection: while there are always proponents
of 'better' hand-crafted memory management discplines, automatic gc always
wins because it makes the developer free from the trouble of memory leaks.
At the price of lower performance and greater memory requirements in certain
cases. 

Just make something that works better.

David

From dvd@davidashen.net Sat Sep  4 13:31:23 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world
Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 02:15:48 +0500
From: dvd@davidashen.net
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> On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 dvd@davidashen.net wrote:
>=20
>> This because the fashion wears out a bit =C3=A2=C2=80=C2=94 things whi=
ch should not be done
>> in mixed-content markup instead of plain attributed lists are not. But=
 those
>> are minority of cases.
>=20
> based on the measurement of XY projects that do zzz with qxr and SNR of=
=20
> 0 .


Yes, because on measurement of  google's responses to XML and Lisp. The i=
dea
of lisp was good, but it didn't solve the problem of unification of seria=
l
representation, interchange and tree operation primitives.

XML did fall from the Ugly Tree. But it is the only fruit you have; other=
s just
don't do the job.

From lists@vaned.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:18 2004
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Subject: [9fans] plan9ports rio patch
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--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

greetings list,

i've attached a patch for the current source for rio from plan9ports.  it
appends a window id to menu items which are duplicated in the menu,
making it easier to locate a certain client.  somebody else might find
it useful.

-- 
glaive@vaned.net
4405 5BA1 62D1 9DA1 7774  B4A3 2CB2 3872 24ED 2441

--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="rio-xid.diff"

--- fns.h.orig	Sat Sep  4 15:38:59 2004
+++ fns.h	Sat Sep  4 15:39:24 2004
@@ -71,6 +71,7 @@
 void	unhide();
 void	unhidec();
 void	renamec();
+char	*gethideid();
 
 /* client.c */
 void	setactive();

--- menu.c.orig	Sat Sep  4 15:32:09 2004
+++ menu.c	Sat Sep  4 16:39:41 2004
@@ -34,6 +34,8 @@
 	version,
 };
 
+static char extid[14];
+
 void
 button(XButtonEvent *e)
 {
@@ -282,4 +284,32 @@
 			b3items[B3FIXED+i] = name;
 			return;
 		}
+}
+
+char *
+gethideid(int n)
+{
+	Client *c;
+	int i;
+
+	if (n >= numhidden) {
+		fprintf(stderr, "rio: gethideid: n %d numhidden %d\n", n, numhidden);
+		return 0;
+	}
+	c = hiddenc[n];
+	if (!hidden(c)) {
+		fprintf(stderr, "rio: gethideid: not hidden: %s(0x%x)\n",
+			c->label, (int)c->window);
+		return 0;
+	}
+	for (i = 0; i < numhidden; i++) {
+		if (i == n)
+			continue;
+		if (strcmp(c->label, hiddenc[i]->label) == 0)
+			break;
+	}
+	if (i >= numhidden)
+		return 0;
+	snprintf(extid, sizeof(extid), " <0x%lx>", c->window);
+	return(extid);
 }

--- grab.c.orig	Sat Sep  4 14:57:45 2004
+++ grab.c	Sat Sep  4 16:48:23 2004
@@ -47,14 +47,21 @@
 }
 
 static void
-drawstring(Display *dpy, ScreenInfo *s, Menu *m, int wide, int high, int i, int selected)
+drawstring(Display *dpy, ScreenInfo *s, Menu *m, int wide, int high, int i, int selected, char *ext)
 {
-	int tx, ty;
+	int tx, txe, ty;
+	int twidth, n;
 
-	tx = (wide - XTextWidth(font, m->item[i], strlen(m->item[i])))/2;
+	twidth = n = XTextWidth(font, m->item[i], strlen(m->item[i]));
+	if (ext)
+		twidth += XTextWidth(font, ext, strlen(ext));
+	tx = (wide - twidth)/2;
+	txe = tx + n;
 	ty = i*high + font->ascent + 1;
 	XFillRectangle(dpy, s->menuwin, selected ? s->gcmenubgs : s->gcmenubg, 0, i*high, wide, high);
 	XDrawString(dpy, s->menuwin, selected ? s->gcmenufgs : s->gcmenufg, tx, ty, m->item[i], strlen(m->item[i]));
+	if (ext)
+		XDrawString(dpy, s->menuwin, selected ? s->gcmenufgs : s->gcmenufg, txe, ty, ext, strlen(ext));
 }
 
 int
@@ -63,6 +70,7 @@
 	XEvent ev;
 	int i, n, cur, old, wide, high, status, drawn, warp;
 	int x, y, dx, dy, xmax, ymax;
+	char *extptr;
 	ScreenInfo *s;
 
 	if (font == 0)
@@ -74,6 +82,9 @@
 	dx = 0;
 	for (n = 0; m->item[n]; n++) {
 		wide = XTextWidth(font, m->item[n], strlen(m->item[n])) + 4;
+		if (m == &b3menu)
+			if ((n >= B3FIXED) && (extptr = gethideid(n - B3FIXED)))
+				wide += XTextWidth(font, extptr, strlen(extptr));
 		if (wide > dx)
 			dx = wide;
 	}
@@ -164,14 +175,14 @@
 			if (cur == old)
 				break;
 			if (old >= 0 && old < n)
-				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, old, 0);
+				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, old, 0, (m == &b3menu && old >= B3FIXED) ? gethideid(old - B3FIXED) : 0);
 			if (cur >= 0 && cur < n)
-				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, cur, 1);
+				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, cur, 1, (m == &b3menu && cur >= B3FIXED) ? gethideid(cur - B3FIXED) : 0);
 			break;
 		case Expose:
 			XClearWindow(dpy, s->menuwin);
 			for (i = 0; i < n; i++)
-				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, i, cur==i);
+				drawstring(dpy, s, m, wide, high, i, cur==i, (m == &b3menu && i >= B3FIXED) ? gethideid(i - B3FIXED) : 0);
 			drawn = 1;
 		}
 	}

--mYCpIKhGyMATD0i+--

From rasputnik@hellooperator.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:20 2004
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From: Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net>
Subject: Re: [9fans] UN to fund linux for the 3rd world 
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 01:30:45 +0100
To: Dan Cross <cross@math.psu.edu>
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On 3 Sep 2004, at 03:13, Dan Cross wrote:

> Dick Davies <rasputnik@hellooperator.net> writes:
>>>
>>>  (b) why Linux?  Why not
>>> one of the BSD distributions?  (c) Can't technology win just this 
>>> once?
>>
>> Linux admins are two a penny?
>
> At that level, are there really that many differences between Linux
> and FreeBSD?  I was a Unix sysadmin for a bunch of years, and I usually
> found it easier to keep BSD running than Linux, but at the end of the
> day there wasn't too much difference between them.  Maybe I'm too old
> school or something.

By Linux, I meant RedHat, since that seems to be the one PHBs have
heard of., unfortunately. The main sysadmin  pain is rpm rather than 
ports
or pkgsrc system - Debian's apt being slightly less objectionable
  (but who uses that)?

But as an earlier poster mentioned, that's a dollar of marketing for 
you...


--
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns

From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:20 2004
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> heard of., unfortunately. The main sysadmin  pain is rpm ...

i love that.  so secure.

From knapjack@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:20 2004
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From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 01:30:45 +0100, Dick Davies
<rasputnik@hellooperator.net> wrote:
> > found it easier to keep BSD running than Linux, but at the end of the
> > day there wasn't too much difference between them.  Maybe I'm too old
> > school or something.
> 
> By Linux, I meant RedHat, since that seems to be the one PHBs have
> heard of., unfortunately. The main sysadmin  pain is rpm rather than
> ports
> or pkgsrc system - Debian's apt being slightly less objectionable
>   (but who uses that)?

At work, we use Debian "stable" exclusively for our Linux installs
just because it seems to be the most sane/stable, but we're not
chasing commercial software vendors and it's all server-side stuff, so
no UI feature envy by users or anything of the sort.

For the *BSDers in the crowd who might be forced to support Linux, I
can't personally recommend it but this seems very promising:

http://www.crux.nu/

Looks like BSD-style initscripts, ports, everything you'd expect
except the kernel and GNU utils everywhere.

Speaking of which, anyone using plan9ports on Darwin (sans Aqua)?  My
wife's iBook just went Tango Uniform (looks like the logic board
issue, even though I *thought* the serial # is out of range) and now
I'm hunting for HFS+ support....

-Jack

From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:20 2004
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> At work, we use Debian "stable" exclusively for our Linux installs

the concept of 'stable' worries me.

From brantley@coraid.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:30 2004
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Subject: [9fans] Grap paper
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My 10th Edition UNIX manual has the paper on grap(1), but I don't see
it in /sys/doc (nor do I find it in Dennis' 10th Edition stuff on the
web).  Is it possible for that to be put in /sys/doc?

  Brantley

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:30 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Grap paper
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 15:42:43 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
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If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.

From brantley@coraid.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:30 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Grap paper
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> If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.

That's the ticket!  Can the sources folk put that into /sys/doc?

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:31 2004
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:49:13 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Grap paper
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> > If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
> > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.
> 
> That's the ticket!  Can the sources folk put that into /sys/doc?

We could, but it's not really a Plan 9 paper.
Then we should put eqn and pic there and so on.

Russ

From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:31 2004
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> We could, but it's not really a Plan 9 paper.
> Then we should put eqn and pic there and so on.

ahh, be buggered.

add a section entitled 'other resources' or something.

or just NATIVE port 'em.


From BHuntsman@mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Sep  8 18:18:31 2004
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>>> Brantley Coile<brantley@coraid.com> 9/5/2004 3:45:40 PM >>>
> If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.

>That's the ticket!  Can the sources folk put that into /sys/doc?

Is there a good reason you need it in /sys/doc?  Doesn't it suffice to =
simply have a copy *somewhere*?

From arnold@skeeve.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:35 2004
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> > > If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
> > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.
> > 
> > That's the ticket!  Can the sources folk put that into /sys/doc?
>
> We could, but it's not really a Plan 9 paper.
> Then we should put eqn and pic there and so on.

Why not?  Plan 9 may be the last stand for troff and friends, so you
may as well include the doc for them in the dist.  Make a separate
'unix_legacy' directory or something for such things, if you like.

Arnold

From brantley@coraid.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:37 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Grap paper
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>>>> Brantley Coile<brantley@coraid.com> 9/5/2004 3:45:40 PM >>>
>> If nothing else works, the grap paper is CSTR 114, available as
>> http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cstr/114.ps.gz.
> 
>>That's the ticket!  Can the sources folk put that into /sys/doc?
> 
> Is there a good reason you need it in /sys/doc?  Doesn't it suffice to simply have a copy *somewhere*?

Sure.  I'm easy.  I just needed grap the other day and if I didn't have
a copy of the 10th Edition V2 it would have been harder to use.  Not
everyone has a copy of the 10th Edition manual.

I don't care where it's put.  (within reason)

  Brantley

From alexandr@babi.cz Wed Sep  8 18:18:37 2004
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i think "e" should be for internet explorer and glenda must seek for it 
and destroy :-)

alexandr babic.

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Wed Sep  8 18:18:39 2004
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Status:   

I have:

cpu% history /386/bin/vncs
Aug  7 05:35:01 SAT 2004 /386/bin/vncs 469227 [proxima]
Aug  7 05:35:01 SAT 2004 /n/dump/2004/0906/386/bin/vncs 469227 [proxima]
May 20 20:18:47 SAT 2004 /n/dump/2004/0807/386/bin/vncs 472667 [none]

and the newer version fails:

cpu% vncs
cpu% vncs 822: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0x14 pc=0x0000b8b0
server started on display :1

although as the owner of the host (eve, in other words) I do not seem
to have the same problem.  Also, the previous version works quite
adequately.

Acid reports:

acid 822
/proc/822/text:386 plan 9 executable

/sys/lib/acid/port
/sys/lib/acid/386
acid: stk()
Exmkfid(fs=0x1ddad8,fid=0x2b3)+0x53 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:441
Exattach(rpc=0x1e016c,fs=0x1ddad8)+0x66 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:535
exslave()+0x46a /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:375
kproc(name=0x50095,a=0x0,f=0xb3cd)+0x65 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/compat.c:54
exportproc(fs=0x1ddad8)+0x186 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:181
sysexport(fd=0x4,roots=0x1dcc98,nroots=0x3)+0x34 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:111
extramp(v=0x7fffee78)+0x2c /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exporter.c:47
kproc(name=0x50c1c,a=0x7fffee78,f=0x96bf)+0x65 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/compat.c:54
exporter(dt=0x51244,sfd=0x3f020,fd=0x7fffef4c)+0x175 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/exporter.c:93
main(argv=0x7fffeeb8,argc=0x0)+0x2b2 /sys/src/cmd/vnc/vncs.c:186
_main+0x31 /sys/src/libc/386/main9.s:16
acid: 

but it's not clear to me why this happens as
/sys/src/cmd/vnc/exportfs.c:441 is the line highlighted below (in my
copy of the source, which ought to be up to date, but I suppose it
need not be):

	lock(&fs->fidlock);
	h = fid % Nfidhash;
	for(f = fs->fid[h]; f != nil; f = f->next){
>>>>>>>>>>>
		if(f->fid == fid){
<<<<<<<<<<<
			unlock(&fs->fidlock);
			free(nf);
			return nil;
		}
	}

Any suggestions?

++L

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:40 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:43:50 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: [9fans] 3D glenda competition
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Status:   

can anyone who has the artist skills render a reasonable 3D glenda?

something as cute as this, for example:

=09
	http://webloria.loria.fr/~rougier/povray/images/tux/tux.jpg

also useful would be the standard raised look so familiar from MS
Windows (light at top-left)

andrey

ps: all proceeds for charity. perhaps you could get your name on the
official plan9 page if people like it, next to Ren=C3=A9e French :)

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:41 2004
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:21:55 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: [9fans] sokoban
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Status:   

YAMANASHI Takeshi submitted some nice fixes for the maze game
yesterday and suggested that a sokoban variant may not be a bad
idea...

several hours later i ended up with:

	http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/sokoban/

it has 120 levels and is fully playable (much more so than the maze
game)...

hope you enjoy it :)

andrey

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
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Status:   

> it has 120 levels and is fully playable (much more so than the maze
> game)...

I, an idiot, am stuck on level 2. :(
-- 


From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:13:40 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   

>> it has 120 levels and is fully playable (much more so than the maze
>> game)...
> 
> I, an idiot, am stuck on level 2. :(
> -- 

i think level 2 was wrong!  i was stuck on it too, but passed the next
few levels.  i've changed a single location to make it more trivial:

plan9% cat sokoban/levels/2
  ####
  #  #
### $####
#@$..   #
#  .* $ #
###  ####
  #  #
  ####
plan9% 

or you can just download the new one from the web.. the solution now is much easier.

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:34:14 +0900
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On Tue Sep  7 09:14:13 JST 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> plan9% cat sokoban/levels/2
>   ####
>   #  #
> ### $####
> #@$..   #
> #  .* $ #
> ###  ####
>   #  #
>   ####

I solved this modified level 2.  Thanks.
-- 


From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:34:51 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
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Status:   

that's excellent!  i was going to suggest that.
a really nice addition is that you click on a ball
and a desitnation square, and if glenda can move
the ball there without touching any others, she
does so automatically.   it's a lot nicer than the
"click one square at a time" once you get to
higher levels.  i may add that later if no one beats
me to it.  the search is not completely trivial,
but not so hard.

also i've been recently playing fish fillets
(http://fillets.sf.net), which is to sokoban as
chess is to go.

russ

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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> I solved this modified level 2.  Thanks.
> -- 

i'm stuck on level 7 now, see you there :)

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep  8 18:18:52 2004
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On Tue Sep  7 09:38:48 JST 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> i'm stuck on level 7 now, see you there :)

Where did you get these levels?  These are harder than
usual sokoban levels, i think.  Glenda should need to work real hard.

By the way, what kind of game do 9fans' member play on pc usually?
Russ suggested Fish Fillet in his post.  Are you all gaming with
kernel hacking?
-- 


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andrey, go for pachinko!

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:53 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:48:27 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> On Tue Sep  7 09:38:48 JST 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
>> i'm stuck on level 7 now, see you there :)
> 
> Where did you get these levels?  These are harder than
> usual sokoban levels, i think.  Glenda should need to work real hard.
> 

www.sourcecode.se/sokoban -- they're the 120 level set listed as 'the
ones from gameboy', they could be the harder ones?

suggest better sets and i'll put them in first...

i hadn't played them before i let the game out -- i'm not a very avid
sokoban player :)

ahh, yes, now i see -- there's a different levelset 'boxxle 1' which
appears to be the easy level gameplay...


i'll fix the game to center on the screen, write a parser for the
level set to avoid all that mucking around with files and make a new
release...

sometime tomorrow :)

andrey

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:53 2004
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:08:42 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
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> By the way, what kind of game do 9fans' member play on pc usually?
> Russ suggested Fish Fillet in his post.  Are you all gaming with
> kernel hacking?

fish fillet reminds me a lot of kernel hacking.
it's a great puzzle game, just like sokoban.

i'd rather be kernel hacking.
russ

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep  8 18:18:53 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:58:48 +0900
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On Tue Sep  7 09:14:13 JST 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> > I, an idiot, am stuck on level 2. :(
> i think level 2 was wrong!  i was stuck on it too, but passed the next
> few levels.  i've changed a single location to make it more trivial:

Wait!!  I succeeded to solve the original level 2. :)

% nashi@valinore cat levels/2
  ####
  #  #
### $####
#@$.. $ #
#  .*   #
###  ####
  #  #
  ####

We should trust sourcecode.se to give reasonable levels.
# still stucking on level 7, and returned to compiling Gaussian 03 though
-- 

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:54 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:07:58 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> We should trust sourcecode.se to give reasonable levels.

that's great, you have much more strength and perseverance, i undid my
change :)

i've put out a new .tgz of sokoban with a few changes:

	- level parser added -- works on the plaintext files from
	sources.se/sokoban. no more hundreds of level files.

	- a new, easy levelset loaded by default

	- change between the easy and hard levelsets via the third
	mouse button

	- sokoban now accepts a level file as argument

	- the game now resizes to show only as much as the level
	covers, this is much better than the previous 16x16 grid

enjoy :)

andrey

ps: russ, do you think it's a good idea to put the images and the
levels in /sys/games/lib/sokoban and to create a /sys/src/cmd/games/
section so the game could go on sources.cs?

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:56 2004
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The canonical location for games source is /sys/src/games.

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Wed Sep  8 18:18:56 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:16:34 +0900
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> section so the game could go on sources.cs?

Is this game sokoban=E5=80=89=E5=BA=AB=E7=95=AA game source is original?
I'm not a game user, and I have no knowledge on it though...

Kenji

From steve@quintile.net Wed Sep  8 18:18:58 2004
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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:18:15 +0100
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Status:   

If in invoke vncserver(1) rather than xvnc(1), without
changing the arguments, I get black text on white background.

The difference appears to be showhere in the 18k of perl
that now gets executed; I appologise for not delving further,
I just don't want to know, it works.
	
	-Steve

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep  8 18:18:58 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 07:20:42 -0600
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>> section so the game could go on sources.cs?
>=20
> Is this game sokoban=E5=80=89=E5=BA=AB=E7=95=AA game source is original=
?
> I'm not a game user, and I have no knowledge on it though...
>=20
> Kenji

i wrote that one from scratch -- i have no access to the original
source...

From rminnich@lanl.gov Wed Sep  8 18:18:59 2004
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 08:17:28 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
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> 	http://webloria.loria.fr/~rougier/povray/images/tux/tux.jpg

tux is not cute. Tux has the expression of someone right after knitting
needles have been used to scramble the front side of their cerebral 
cortex.

Tux scares me.

ron

From ravage@einstein.ssz.com Wed Sep  8 18:18:59 2004
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:21:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
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Subject: [9fans] Hangar 18 Austin: Linucon - Oct. 8-10, Austin, Tx.
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                 Hangar 18 - Open Source Distributed Technology


A global informal co-operative of amateur and professional computer and
technology users focused on using Open Source technology for our problem
solutions. In particular we use Linux, Plan 9, & Inferno as a base for our
projects. The work is based arond a general 'tit-for-tat' approach to
sharing of resources. Please visit our homepage for more information about
what we're up to!

http://open-forge.org/hangar18

For a general introduction and to set expectations all around please read,

http://open-forge.org/hangar18/projects/hangar18_newbie_howto.html

The Austin, Tx group meets every Wednesday from 6pm to 9pm (or later). Please
visit the homepage for instructions on attending the meetings.

If you'd like to join our general mailing list then send,

majordomo@open-forge.org

an email which has in the body

subscribe hangar18-general

You should be subscribed to the list and recieve a notification back from the
server. There are a variety of mailing lists currently available.


Events & News:


Linucon (Austin, TX), Oct. 8-10'th.

	Hangar 18 Austin will be giving a presentation on Plan 9 and other
	non-traditional 'open source' operating systems and environments.
	We will also give a short talk on the care and feeding of game
	consoles. We will have a table where we will have several 'classic
	computers' such as Atari 800, SX-64, and Amiga. Besides Plan 9 and
	Inferno we will also be giving away material relating to Squeak,
	Unununium, SkyOS, and MSWLogo.

	We would like to ask that any Plan 9 or Inferno users or
	organizations who have material they would like to contribute please
	contact Open Forge for further help. Media, posters, t-shirts, etc.
	would be greatly appreciated. All material will be given away.
	Volunteers greatly appreciated!


Contact Information:


	Open Forge, LLC
	Attn: Hangar 18
	6901 N. Lamar Blvd.
	Austin, Tx. 78752

	Office Hours: 9am - 5pm, Monday - Saturday

	512-451-7087 (main number w/ vmb, callback next business day)
	512-695-4126 (24/7 help desk, don't call for non-tech issues)

	hangar18-general@open-forge.org (must be subscribed, see above)
	staff@open-forge.com (general questions and help)
	help@open-forge.com (24/7 help desk, don't call for non-tech issues)

	http://open-forge.org
	http://open-forge.org/hangar18


From alcortes@coitt.es Wed Sep  8 18:19:00 2004
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From: Alberto Cortes <alcortes@coitt.es>
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Subject: [9fans] losing files with ftpfs(4)
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Status:   

I have an ftp server (no plan9 host), it serve some files and
directories.

When a client connects to my ftp server it shows a write protected
directory containing some readable files and some writable
directories.

If i ftpfs to it and try to "mv" a file to the mount point (write
protected) this happens:

term% ftpfs -m /usr/glenda/ftp -a xxxx@yyyyy.com 172.26.0.4
220 ProFTPD 1.2.5rc1 Server (Debian) [shire]
331 Anonymous login ok, send your complete email address as your password.
230 Anonymous access granted, restrictions apply.
215 UNIX Type: L8
257 "/" is current directory.
term% mv foo ftp/
226-Transfer complete.
ftpfs: couldn't create file 

Which is quite annoying as i find myself with no "foo" file on the ftp
server (that's OK) AND no "foo" file on my plan9 side (which is
certainly not OK).

Is this the expected behaviour of ftpfs ?

Could it be that "ftpfs" isn't checking for permission before saying
"mv": "i can handle this, just finish your work" ?


sorry for not tracking the problem much more but i am not very
experienced with this things.


-- 
http://montoya.aig.uc3m.es/~acortes/index.html

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:00 2004
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:41:38 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Alberto Cortes <alcortes@coitt.es>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] losing files with ftpfs(4)
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Status:   

This is just a fundamental limitation of ftpfs.
It can't reliably try the create until it has all
the data that is supposed to be in the file.
But it doesn't know it has all the data until
the close, at which point mv will think it's
okay to remove the original.

Russ

From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep  8 18:19:00 2004
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Status:   

> This is just a fundamental limitation of ftpfs.
> It can't reliably try the create until it has all
> the data that is supposed to be in the file.
> But it doesn't know it has all the data until
> the close, at which point mv will think it's
> okay to remove the original.

1 point for NFS's rename call. -2 points for NFS's lack
of a close op and writes in a 'random' order.

ftp's RNFR/RNTO ops do mv(1).

not that i'm advocating breaking mv.

did this 'disk full' patch get applied?

brahma% diff /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/ip/ftpfs/proto.c .
991,992c991
< getreply(&ctlin, msg, sizeof(msg), 0);
< return off;
---
> return getreply(&ctlin, msg, sizeof(msg), 0) == Success ? off : -1;

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:01 2004
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On Tue Sep  7 18:08:07 EDT 2004, boyd@insultant.net wrote:
> ...
> did this 'disk full' patch get applied?
> 
> brahma% diff /n/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/ip/ftpfs/proto.c .
> 991,992c991
> < getreply(&ctlin, msg, sizeof(msg), 0);
> < return off;
> ---
> > return getreply(&ctlin, msg, sizeof(msg), 0) == Success ? off : -1;

yes

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> yes

thanks

From pantosys@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:02 2004
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From: Joseph Holsten <pantosys@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] losing files with ftpfs(4)
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Why can't it create an empty file to test write access, and then
rewrite the file after it receives it?

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:02 2004
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:32:46 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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> Why can't it create an empty file to test write access, and then
> rewrite the file after it receives it?

Ftpfs could employ all sorts of heuristics, but it still
won't get the semantics right 100%.  I agree that your 
heuristic is probably worth implementing, but there
aren't many people who want to go near that code.

We typically use ftpfs as read-only.  For writing, you're
better off with u9fs, perhaps invoked over ssh.

Russ

From nikils@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:04 2004
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Status:   

How to enable ip masquerading in plan9 ? or it is not needed if both
the systems are using plan9 ?

thanks and regards
nikhil

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep  8 18:19:05 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:49:07 -0700
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IP Masquerading is Linux's terminology for NA(P)T, isn't it?  What are
you trying to do?

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Wed Sep  8 18:19:05 2004
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andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> several hours later i ended up with:
> 
> 	http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/sokoban/

I like it. Thanks!

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Wed Sep  8 18:19:06 2004
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From: Heiko Dudzus <heiko.dudzus@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
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By the way: The sokoban window is not hideable. There appears an entry
"sokoban" in the list of hidden windows but the window still remains
visible (and the game remains playable).

From nikils@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 18:19:06 2004
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From: Nikhil S <nikils@gmail.com>
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Just curious to know what is the plan9's equivalent

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep  8 18:19:06 2004
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From: geoff@collyer.net
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There's no built-in NA(P)T.

Most of the available IP facilities are described in ip(3)
and the pages cited in its SEE ALSO section.

From bmaroshe@itcollege.ee Wed Sep  8 22:29:04 2004
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----- Original Message -----
From: Nikhil S <nikils@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading

> Just curious to know what is the plan9's equivalent
http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/newnetwork/index.html#cpu

boris

From forsyth@terzarima.net Wed Sep  8 22:29:04 2004
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Status:   

if a plan 9 machine has a network interface, other plan 9
machines can import that interface to use it as a gateway; to outsiders,
calls made from inside machine(s) appear to come from the gateway
(because they do, really).   just import /net (and see below re /net.alt).

the cost is extra traffic on the inside network for 9p requests,
exportfs processes on the gateway, and some added latency.
an advantage is that since the calls do originate
on the gateway, none of the usual mess for address and port mapping is
needed.  programs on the inside in a name space where /net
has been imported make connections by reading and writing
the files in /net, but that's controlled by the gateway, so address
and port assignment are consistent across all clients and for all protocols,
without fuss.

furthermore, if the gateway has two interfaces, one can be connected to one
IP stack on the inside (say #I0), and another to a distinct IP stack
on the outside (say #I1), where the two stacks are completely separate,
and the outside stack can have different listeners (offer different services)
compared to the inside stack.  that gives you the effect of a firewall.
one difference from the usual firewall is that because there is
no path between the two stacks except by intervention of a
program or manipulation of the name space, it's easier to
ensure that nothing will leak.  in other words, it isn't relying
on filtering rules within a single stack in the kernel, but on
having complete isolation between the two networks,
as far as the kernel and IP stacks are concerned.

because of a hack in dial(), if insiders bind the outside stack to
/net.alt, dial will try that if a call through /net can't be made (eg,
because it hasn't got the names or addresses needed).

to do nat/natp, some programming is required.  (others have done this
but the code isn't available.)  one approach is to have two
stacks as above, and have a single application bind a netdev (see ip(3))
onto each, one with an inside address and the other with the external
address known to outsiders.  it can then copy packets between them with
any filtering or transformation as required (ipmux might be helpful).
it again adds a bit of latency, but no network traffic (and it will work
for non plan 9 clients).  the ftp/dns/http protocol-specific
code is in user mode.

it is possible to mix these approaches.

From nikils@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 22:29:04 2004
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:38:38 +0530
From: Nikhil S <nikils@gmail.com>
To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading
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Status:   

When you import gateway's outside ip stack as /net.alt and try to ping
/net.alt/<outside ipaddress> i can understand that the ping packet is
sent from gateway's outside ip stack using its outside ipaddress etc.
what happens when the ping response comes back. will that packet be
forwarded to both gateway and inside machine ? or only to inside
machine ?
how does this internally work. i mean when you import /net.alt the
ippacket with header is forwarded or without header ?

i havent seen kernel code. just curious

From forsyth@terzarima.net Wed Sep  8 22:29:04 2004
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To: nikils@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading
From: Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:23:08 +0100
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it goes back to the port that sent it, which is always on the gateway
machine, which corresponds to a file in /net/icmp/ on the gateway
but if another node has imported that, and that node did the ping,
it's something like this:

	node imports /net from gateway (import(4) dials exportfs(4) service on gateway)
				gateway starts a gateway.exportfs serving 9P
	...
	node opens imported /net/icmp/clone
		9P:
		Topen -> gateway.exportfs
				exportfs opens appropriate file on gateway
		Ropen <- gateway.exportfs
	node writes to the opened file
		Twrite -> gateway.exportfs
			gateway.exportfs does the write to the file on gateway
				gateway.IPstack -> ICMP packet on net on port P
		Rwrite <- gateway.exportfs
				gateway.IPstack <- ICMP responses, queued for port P's file
	...
	node reads opened file
		Tread -> gateway.exportfs
				gateway.exportfs does the read of file on gateway
		Rread <- gateway.exportfs (with data for port P's file)
	...
where the T- and R-messages are 9P messages on the channel set up by import(4) between
node and the exportfs(4) on the gateway, assuming the gateway
provides that service (see listen(8)).   the kernel doesn't do anything special,
which is indeed the point, so reading the kernel code wouldn't be particularly helpful.
man 4 import, man 4 exportfs, and man 3 ip would be more helpful.

--upas-thgfsvguvozaomdufifvtmmslm
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:38:38 +0530
From: Nikhil S <nikils@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading
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When you import gateway's outside ip stack as /net.alt and try to ping
/net.alt/<outside ipaddress> i can understand that the ping packet is
sent from gateway's outside ip stack using its outside ipaddress etc.
what happens when the ping response comes back. will that packet be
forwarded to both gateway and inside machine ? or only to inside
machine ?
how does this internally work. i mean when you import /net.alt the
ippacket with header is forwarded or without header ?

i havent seen kernel code. just curious
--upas-thgfsvguvozaomdufifvtmmslm--

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep  8 22:29:06 2004
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:59:56 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Nikhil S <nikils@gmail.com>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] ip masquerading
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Status:   

ping is a program that works by accessing files in /net/icmp
(or /net.alt/icmp).  when you import another machine's
/net/icmp directory and run ping, you are using the other
machine's ip stack -- the other machine is doing the pinging.
you wouldn't even need ip on the local machine, assuming 
you had some other way to get at the alternate machine's /net.

russ

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Thu Sep  9 07:23:00 2004
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:53:39 -0400
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Status:   

I've put a new version of 9load on sources.
The two main changes are

1) a driver for the Intel GbE cards, courtesy of Geoff Collyer;
2) 9pxeload will now try to get configuration info from a file on
   a TFTP server.

Let me know if there are any problems with it.

--jim

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Thu Sep  9 19:17:56 2004
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:57:43 -0600 (MDT)
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
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Status:   

On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Heiko Dudzus wrote:

> By the way: The sokoban window is not hideable. There appears an entry
> "sokoban" in the list of hidden windows but the window still remains
> visible (and the game remains playable).
>

fixed that just now: sokoban won't attempt to resize if eresized() is
called with the same screen rectangle. it's a hack, but that's really a
problem with how i designed things.

there graphics are also sharper now -- i found a better source for the
level sprites (see the screenshot).

andrey

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Thu Sep  9 19:17:56 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
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Status:   

On Thu Sep  9 12:59:52 JST 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Heiko Dudzus wrote:

> > By the way: The sokoban window is not hideable.
 :
> fixed that just now:

I had been trying to fix this too, but couldn't make out
how one can tell a window is about to be hidden.

> sokoban won't attempt to resize if eresized() is
> called with the same screen rectangle.

This is called as a hack.  But is there an official way
to recognize the hiding in rio?
-- 


From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Thu Sep  9 19:17:56 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] sokoban
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:21:43 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   


> This is called as a hack.  But is there an official way
> to recognize the hiding in rio?
> -- 

i think that's the only way.  i had a look through rio's source before
doing this and the window hide function sends a Resized message with
ZR as the argument.  ZR is the (undocumented) rectangle variant of ZP. 

even though you won't see it set anywhere in either rio or libdraw's
sources, ZR = Rpt(ZP, ZP).

i had hoped that eresized's 'new' argument would be set to 0 in the
case of window hides but it's always 1. could that be a bug?

andrey

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  9 19:17:57 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:00:31 +0900
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Status:   

I got music from this CM106F chip USB audio device now!
I coundn't stop to write this here.  This is my summer vacation's
hacking result of this year.

I have still many things to be fixed, however, I think I got it
to make work for me.   Sound quality?  Not so good, better
than internal SB16 compatible card.=E2=98=BA

The device I'm using here is composed of only one chip
called CM106F, and connectors, which include S/PDIF
optical in/out, 2 mic input, a stereo line jack, three output
jacks for various speakers, and a jack for headphone, and
of course a USB connector.   The name of the device is
Kuro Sound(=E7=8E=84=E9=9F=B3) in Japan.  I don't know what is it called
outside.   However, you don't worry about it, because its
component is only a chip, called CM106F.

Kenji

PS. Sape, I'll send you my update soon.

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  9 19:17:58 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:15:55 +0900
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> optical in/out, 2 mic input, a stereo line jack, 

a stereo line in jack

The box has four buttons on its top face, volume +/-
and Play/Rec Mute.

Kenji

From forsyth@terzarima.net Thu Sep  9 19:17:58 2004
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From: Charles Forsyth <forsyth@terzarima.net>
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i find that the last batch of changes written to venti always
yields diagnostics like the following from subsequent venti/checkarenas:

unwritten clump info for clump=78327 score=096aebf110967672346d6b22597aaf28bb070a61 type=2
unwritten clump info for clump=78328 score=78b812a6153d4ba818625767c63d177878247390 type=13
unwritten clump info for clump=78329 score=2f5755c62e26aacb9ef323998c346ea4d4f22f79 type=2
unwritten clump info for clump=78330 score=d46c5390d95cfb6a58fdd9fa72ac705626a8d151 type=13
unwritten clump info for clump=78331 score=1e21e26ee81d03f4df808dad975a465e73a15a5e type=13
unwritten clump info for clump=78332 score=5f818cf12419acdb6498d05b6ecc849e78562263 type=2
unwritten clump info for clump=78333 score=92e25ecb6c7ad80415cf8cc1916eb001c7b0dea2 type=2
unwritten clump info for clump=78334 score=332e3a8eef00a8ccbb307b143757b33f3fcb72d2 type=1
incorrect arena header fields
	...

venti/sync doesn't change the result.

when i'd changed venti/checkarenas -f to repair them correctly (rather,
remember that it had repaired them) i'd assumed that i'd shut down at
some point before it could write the clump info.  it's so consistent on
several venti, though, that i now assume i've misinterpreted.
mind you, one time i couldn't use the result until i'd done the checkarenas -f
and rebuilt the index.  any comments?

From nwaples@swiftdsl.com.au Thu Sep  9 19:17:58 2004
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Subject: [9fans] dual monitor hack for nvidia
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Status:   


 Ive managed to get dual monitor working with nvidia (well only tested on
a ti4200 with one analog monitor). It was only a quick hack of the driver
to see if I could get the hardware stuff working. Since I havent touched
it for a while, I thought I might as well stick it up if anyone was
desperate for it.

 Its just two side by side views on the same frame buffer. To do it I
subverted panning. So to enable it, use panning with a double width frame
buffer, eg. aux/vga -l 1024x768x32 2048x768

 If anyone thinks this may be useful and/or has suggestions I might be
willing to do more with it. I only have one monitor so its useless to me.


http://pobox.com/~nickw/dualmonitor/

Nick

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  9 19:17:58 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:06:40 +0900
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> Sound quality?  Not so good, better
> than internal SB16 compatible card.=E2=98=BA

Hmm, it's not so fair.  This USB audio device does better
job for a piano music, because it makes too large sound
suddenly.   Even in such music, USB audio seems to do=20
better job to me.   I don't want to compare it with my
home multi-channels tube audio system though.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep  9 19:17:59 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
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Ah, I've just out of listening Glenn Gould of 1981.
I felt he is really great! from this USB audio device!
Audio is very nice, because we can meet 1981 Gould,
young Paul, and John Lennon!
Ilike this device now.

>three output
>jacks for various speakers

Those are four, Front(2), Rear(2), Soround(2), Center/SuperWoofer.
Probably, I'll never use them other than two Front speakers...
I may have spoken too much...

Kenji

--upas-rxuvhqabxduntkbwxwlgsueymx
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:06:40 +0900
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> Sound quality?  Not so good, better
> than internal SB16 compatible card.=E2=98=BA

Hmm, it's not so fair.  This USB audio device does better
job for a piano music, because it makes too large sound
suddenly.   Even in such music, USB audio seems to do=20
better job to me.   I don't want to compare it with my
home multi-channels tube audio system though.=E2=98=BA

Kenji
--upas-rxuvhqabxduntkbwxwlgsueymx--

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Fri Sep 10 06:01:13 2004
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:38:23 -0400
From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] venti/checkarenas
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On Thu Sep  9 04:32:19 EDT 2004, forsyth@terzarima.net wrote:
> i find that the last batch of changes written to venti always
> yields diagnostics like the following from subsequent venti/checkarenas:
> 
> unwritten clump info for clump=78327 score=096aebf110967672346d6b22597aaf28bb070a61 type=2
> unwritten clump info for clump=78328 score=78b812a6153d4ba818625767c63d177878247390 type=13
> unwritten clump info for clump=78329 score=2f5755c62e26aacb9ef323998c346ea4d4f22f79 type=2
> unwritten clump info for clump=78330 score=d46c5390d95cfb6a58fdd9fa72ac705626a8d151 type=13
> unwritten clump info for clump=78331 score=1e21e26ee81d03f4df808dad975a465e73a15a5e type=13
> unwritten clump info for clump=78332 score=5f818cf12419acdb6498d05b6ecc849e78562263 type=2
> unwritten clump info for clump=78333 score=92e25ecb6c7ad80415cf8cc1916eb001c7b0dea2 type=2
> unwritten clump info for clump=78334 score=332e3a8eef00a8ccbb307b143757b33f3fcb72d2 type=1
> incorrect arena header fields
> 	...
> 
> venti/sync doesn't change the result.
> 
> when i'd changed venti/checkarenas -f to repair them correctly (rather,
> remember that it had repaired them) i'd assumed that i'd shut down at
> some point before it could write the clump info.  it's so consistent on
> several venti, though, that i now assume i've misinterpreted.
> mind you, one time i couldn't use the result until i'd done the checkarenas -f
> and rebuilt the index.  any comments?

If my memory serves me correctly, venti/sync only makes sure buffered data blocks
are on disc. The clump info is batched separately and is quite often not on disc
when venti is stopped. The first thing the venti server does on startup is to make
the clump info up to date. You can do this manually if the server isn't running
with the syncindex command (not mentiuoned in the man pages).

--jim

From russcox@gmail.com Fri Sep 10 06:01:15 2004
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:04:04 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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> If my memory serves me correctly, venti/sync only makes sure buffered data blocks
> are on disc. The clump info is batched separately and is quite often not on disc
> when venti is stopped. The first thing the venti server does on startup is to make
> the clump info up to date. You can do this manually if the server isn't running
> with the syncindex command (not mentiuoned in the man pages).

This is correct.  I have occasionally seen problems like forsyth
describes (requiring the checkindex -f), though I haven't been
able to understand them or track them down.

Russ

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 10 14:27:16 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
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Status:   

> Ah, I've just out of listening Glenn Gould of 1981.
> I felt he is really great! from this USB audio device!

Today, I tried strings music, Mozart's string quartet by Alban berg,=20
and also found I can listen this kind of music from this device.
I have been not fond of doing such on internal PC sound
device ( in ths case, Via's for Linux).

Now trying Uchida and Tate's Piano cencerto of Mozart.   Yes, I'm
doing hacking, and it needs more.   However, I'm now enjoying
music from this USB audio device.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

From lbxxy2002@yahoo.com.cn Fri Sep 10 19:55:13 2004
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Subject: [9fans] how to boot plan9 on vmware4.x
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Hi,
  I am a beginner in plan9. I have installed it on
vmware4.5 but I can not boot up. but I can bootup on
vmware3.1.  Could anyone can tell me how to boot on
vmware4.x? Thanks a lot!

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?=20
=CF=D3=D3=CA=CF=E4=CC=AB=D0=A1=A3=BF=D1=C5=BB=A2=B5=E7=D3=CA=D7=D4=D6=FA=C0=
=A9=C8=DD=A3=A1
http://cn.rd.yahoo.com/mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail.yahoo.com/event/10=
m.html

From brucee@chunder.com Fri Sep 10 19:55:13 2004
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:36:51 +1000
From: Bruce Ellis <brucee@chunder.com>
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] VT6306 chip is for OHCI or UHCI?
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Status:   

berg is good.  dump a prokofiev piano concerto on it.

Kenji Okamoto wrote:

>>Ah, I've just out of listening Glenn Gould of 1981.
>>I felt he is really great! from this USB audio device!
>=20
>=20
> Today, I tried strings music, Mozart's string quartet by Alban berg,=20
> and also found I can listen this kind of music from this device.
> I have been not fond of doing such on internal PC sound
> device ( in ths case, Via's for Linux).
>=20
> Now trying Uchida and Tate's Piano cencerto of Mozart.   Yes, I'm
> doing hacking, and it needs more.   However, I'm now enjoying
> music from this USB audio device.=E2=98=BA
>=20
> Kenji

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Sat Sep 11 13:26:05 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] how to boot plan9 on vmware4.x
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:43:10 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   

here's some help material:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/vmware4/index.html

> Hi,
>   I am a beginner in plan9. I have installed it on
> vmware4.5 but I can not boot up. but I can bootup on
> vmware3.1.  Could anyone can tell me how to boot on
> vmware4.x? Thanks a lot!
>=20
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?=20
> =C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=CC=AB=D0=A1=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C5=BB=
=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=DD=
=A3
> http://cn.rd.yahoo.com/mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail.yahoo.com/event/=
10m.html

From enache@rdslink.ro Sat Sep 11 13:26:09 2004
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 00:47:40 +0300
From: Enache Adrian <enache@rdslink.ro>
To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: [9fans] u9fs -u <user>
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Status:   

how is the -u switch supposed to work when u9fs is run as root ?

term% 9fs 172.16.13.1 unix
post...
term% touch unix/heyya
term% ls -l unix/heyya
--rw-r--r-- M 71 root adi 0 Sep 10 00:24 unix/heyya
                 ^^^^

the userchange() function has been changed to always succeed without
doing anything at all when 'defaultuser' is set - is that right ?

thanks,
Adi

From lbxxy2002@yahoo.com.cn Sat Sep 11 18:50:03 2004
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 16:42:16 +0800 (CST)
From: =?gb2312?q?bo=20li?= <lbxxy2002@yahoo.com.cn>
Subject: Re: [9fans] how to boot plan9 on vmware4.x
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

Thank you, Andery. I boot it up.

 --- andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
=B5=C4=D5=FD=CE=C4=A3=BA
> here's some help material:
>=20
>
http://cm.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/vmware4/index.html
>=20
> > Hi,
> >   I am a beginner in plan9. I have installed it on
> > vmware4.5 but I can not boot up. but I can bootup
> on
> > vmware3.1.  Could anyone can tell me how to boot
> on
> > vmware4.x? Thanks a lot!
> >=20
> >
>
_________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?=20
> > =C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=CC=AB=D0=A1=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C5=
=BB=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=C2=80=
=DD=A3
> >
>
http://cn.rd.yahoo.com/mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail.yahoo.com/event/10=
m.html
>=20
> =20

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?=20
=CF=D3=D3=CA=CF=E4=CC=AB=D0=A1=A3=BF=D1=C5=BB=A2=B5=E7=D3=CA=D7=D4=D6=FA=C0=
=A9=C8=DD=A3=A1
http://cn.rd.yahoo.com/mail_cn/tag/10m/*http://cn.mail.yahoo.com/event/10=
m.html

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Sat Sep 11 18:50:03 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
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Status:   

I note that "page" attempts to use "fb/tiff2pic" or some such when I
try to view certain maps in my possession.  Would it be possible to
release the "fb" sources and man pages from 2nd Edition Plan 9 with a
view to having them ported to 4th Edition?

Of course, if a TIFF to PIC conversion already exists in 4th Edition
and somebody points me to it, I'll be less enthusiastic, but I think
the utility of the "fb" modules ought to live on :-)

++L

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Sun Sep 12 07:47:46 2004
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:45:44 -0600 (MDT)
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
To: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za>, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] TIFF to PIC
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Status:   

Lucio,

I just ported libtiff to Plan 9. Perhaps you will find tiff2ps useful for
viewing tiff images. I don't see any tiff2pnm or tiff2jpg programs in its
standard tools, but hopefully I can bring netpbm to Plan 9 sometime in the
future -- it has 'tifftopnm'.

Download here:

     http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/libtiff/

andrey

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Lucio De Re wrote:

> I note that "page" attempts to use "fb/tiff2pic" or some such when I
> try to view certain maps in my possession.  Would it be possible to
> release the "fb" sources and man pages from 2nd Edition Plan 9 with a
> view to having them ported to 4th Edition?
>
> Of course, if a TIFF to PIC conversion already exists in 4th Edition
> and somebody points me to it, I'll be less enthusiastic, but I think
> the utility of the "fb" modules ought to live on :-)
>
> ++L
>

From mirya@ukrpost.net Tue Sep 14 05:45:28 2004
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From: "Kyryll Mirnenko" <mirya@ukrpost.net>
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Status:   


Why no i740 video driver? It's still widely used; does anyone know if it's
planned to be developed in nearest future?
 
 --------------
 Regards, Mirya


From lucio@proxima.alt.za Tue Sep 14 05:45:29 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] FW: no i740 driver
From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
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> Why no i740 video driver? It's still widely used; does anyone know if it's
> planned to be developed in nearest future?

Surely it is clear that there are only a few developers and their
skills are applied to the devices they have an interest in.  If no one
has developed a driver for the i740, then the chances are that no one
will, either.  Unless you choose to do it, of course, or persuade
someone else that it's in their interest to do it.

++L

From russcox@gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:16:08 2004
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:27:18 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] u9fs -u <user>
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Status:  O

> how is the -u switch supposed to work when u9fs is run as root ?

it's supposed to work when u9fs is *not* run as root.
it's meant for personal use on machines where you 
can't run as root.

> term% 9fs 172.16.13.1 unix
> post...
> term% touch unix/heyya
> term% ls -l unix/heyya
> --rw-r--r-- M 71 root adi 0 Sep 10 00:24 unix/heyya
>                  ^^^^
> 
> the userchange() function has been changed to always succeed without
> doing anything at all when 'defaultuser' is set - is that right ?

yes, but only because it means something other than
what you expect it to mean.

russ

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep 15 21:15:47 2004
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Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:52:10 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: [9fans] color compositing
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i'm in a pickle here trying to find out how to use duff/porter's alpha
channels properly.  here's the situation:

	- there is an image with background color which should be
	transparent

	- this image, sans the background color, should go onto
	another image

the problem is that i'm not able to extract the non-background color
from the image.  obviously the easiest soution would be to use a mask
for anything that non-background, so the first thing i tried was to
use the image as a mask on a 'draw everything in white on black
background'.  the problem i ran into was that if i use a low-bit
channel (GRAY1) i only see the parts of the image which were bright
enough originally, if i use a higher-bit channel i get variations of
grey causing everything drawn afterwards to appear black'n'white...

then i tried several of the duff/porter compositing operators with
absolutely no effect whatsoever.

in my desperation i even tried creating an image with the alpha for
the particular color set to zero, but it proved fruitless.

to summarize: how can i remove a certain color from an image
programmatically?

andrey

From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep 15 21:15:49 2004
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From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] color compositing
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> to summarize: how can i remove a certain color from an image
> programmatically?

first make the "image with background color which should
be transparent" into an "image with transparent background":

read it into a Memimage of (say) RGBA32,
then loop over the pixels looking for your particular
color and replacing them with 0,0,0,0.  (actual transparent
pixels.)

then you can 

draw(dst, dst->r, bottom, nil, ZP);
draw(dst, dst->r, image, nil, ZP);

and voila! you have your image.

russ

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep 15 21:15:49 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] color compositing
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thanks, that's how i'll do it (chris hollis-locke suggested the same
privately).  i wanted to see whether there's a way of doing it without
preprocessing, but i guess not.

andrey

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Wed Sep 15 21:15:51 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
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Subject: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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I got a PCI sound card, which says "Legacy audio SB16 compatible".
Please remark it doesn't say SB neither SBpro.   The chip name is
CMI8738/PCI-SX, note the -SX suffix!

Does anyone have any experience on this sound card?

Kenji

From sah@softcardsystems.com Thu Sep 16 07:38:50 2004
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http://www.sun.com/2004-0914/feature/?biga=15

Parts of this article are downright hilarious:

Logically, the next question is if ZFS' 128 bits is enough. According to 
Bonwick, it has to be. "Populating 128-bit file systems would exceed the 
quantum limits of earth-based storage. You couldn't fill a 128-bit storage 
pool without boiling the oceans."

... who wouldn't want to boil the oceans?!  I mean, c'mon -

Sam

From boyd@insultant.net Thu Sep 16 07:38:51 2004
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> ... who wouldn't want to boil the oceans?!  I mean, c'mon -

who needs to?  we've already got global warming, just let it ramp up a bit ;)

From cross@math.psu.edu Thu Sep 16 07:38:51 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:39:22 CDT."
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Sam <sah@softcardsystems.com> writes:
> ... who wouldn't want to boil the oceans?!  I mean, c'mon -

Hmm, there are a lot of lobster's in the ocean.  I'll bring the
clarified butter.

	- Dan C.

From newsham@lava.net Thu Sep 16 07:38:52 2004
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From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
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> http://www.sun.com/2004-0914/feature/?biga=15

    ZFS is supported on both SPARC and x86 platforms. More important, ZFS
    is endian-neutral. You can easily move disks from a SPARC server to an
    x86 server. Neither architecture pays a byte-swapping tax due to Sun's
    patent-pending "adaptive endian-ness" technology, which is unique to
    ZFS.

Are they patenting receiver-makes-right?

> Sam

Tim N.

From rminnich@lanl.gov Thu Sep 16 07:38:52 2004
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any of these work? With wireless? I'd like to build a backpack nu -- er, 
plan 9 cluster, battery powered, AAA, etc. 

ron

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Thu Sep 16 17:48:04 2004
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From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
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On Thu Sep 16 04:05:45 JST 2004, Dan Cross wrote:
> Hmm, there are a lot of lobster's in the ocean.  I'll bring the
> clarified butter.

Hey, wait!!  I want to eat fish raw!!
-- 


From boyd@insultant.net Thu Sep 16 17:48:04 2004
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> Hey, wait!!  I want to eat fish raw!!

lobster sashimi is quite special.

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Thu Sep 16 17:48:04 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS 
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:21:41 +0900
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On Thu Sep 16 09:13:58 JST 2004, boyd, rounin wrote:
> lobster sashimi is quite special.

It would get more expensive after
the Sun had boilded the ocean.. *sigh*.

By the way, the ZFS story claims that ZFS as
"the world's first 128-bit file system".

That's fine.  Ok.
But the world's first 160-bit file system is venti, isn't it?
-- 


From russcox@gmail.com Thu Sep 16 17:48:04 2004
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:36:25 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
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> That's fine.  Ok.
> But the world's first 160-bit file system is venti, isn't it?

venti is a more of a strange disk than a file system.
vac (and therefore fossil) use 56-bit file sizes.
all the disk offsets inside the venti implementation
are 64 bits.

russ

From cross@math.psu.edu Thu Sep 16 17:48:05 2004
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YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp> writes:
> On Thu Sep 16 04:05:45 JST 2004, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Hmm, there are a lot of lobster's in the ocean.  I'll bring the
> > clarified butter.
> 
> Hey, wait!!  I want to eat fish raw!!

Hahaha...  American imperialism wins again!

	- Dan C.

From brucee@chunder.com Thu Sep 16 17:48:05 2004
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Status:   

i run a hosted version of inferno on the 4150.
i haven't done much with it but it's kinda goofy.

brucee

Ronald G. Minnich wrote:
> any of these work? With wireless? I'd like to build a backpack nu -- er, 
> plan 9 cluster, battery powered, AAA, etc. 
> 
> ron

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Fri Sep 17 05:34:07 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:49:27 -0400
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Subject: [9fans] u9fs and va_copy()
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Status:   

Eric Van Hensbergen <ericvh@gmail.com> has provided a fix for u9fs on the PowerPC.
The va_copy() macro is needed if the type of va_list is not an array (as it is on all
the current Plan 9 compilers I believe).

There may be other software ported between Plan 9 and other systems which could run
foul of the va_copy() macro. Should we add it to the Plan9 header files and check
all our code conforms to the correct use of variable arguments as specified in C99?

--jim

From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Fri Sep 17 05:34:07 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:09:35 +0200
From: Heiko Dudzus <heiko.dudzus@gmx.de>
To: 9fans <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

Everything works fine if you read local mailboxes. I ran into trouble
when I tried to pipe a raw message from nedmail to upas/spam when I
was reading a remote IMAP box.

2: ||upas/spam
Can't cd /mail/fs/mbox/[0-9]*: '/mail/fs/mbox/[0-9]*' does not exist

(In acme mail occurs the same problem, btw)

upas/spam an upas/msgcat (which the former invokes) mount a single
message on /mail/fs, so I thougt it would be a conflict with the IMAP
box mounted on /mail/fs

I hacked /mail/lib/msgcat.rc and /mail/lib/spam.rc to mount the
message(s) on /tmp/tmpmail instead.

This solved the problem.

Of course, unspam.rc and isspam.rc have to be modified in the same
way. And of course, the mountpoint is not chosen well.

But except this; is this modification of general interest? 

From robpike@gmail.com Fri Sep 17 05:34:07 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:24:40 -0700
From: Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] u9fs and va_copy()
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Status:   

Yes, you should do this. It's a royal pain, though.  The fmt library needs
a hell of a lot of work to be compliant. I've done it but I don't like the code
and plan to redo it sometime soon.  I also have implementations of the
POSIX %4$d stuff and %'d stuff, with plans for %'f.  Joy.

I'll ship it back when I'm done, but it will be a while; I have other fires at
the moment.

-rob

From russcox@gmail.com Fri Sep 17 05:34:08 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:57:32 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] piping to upas/spam when reading IMAP boxes
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Status:   

The spam filter associated with upas/spam etc. works
by running a filter over all incoming mail.  It is invoked
by /mail/box/$user/pipeto when mail is delivered to
/mail/box/$user/mbox.  If you are reading mail via IMAP,
then presumably it's because your mail doesn't get
delivered to Plan 9, in which case piping stuff to upas/spam
will have no useful effect at all.

Russ

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From: Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com>
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] 3D glenda competition
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Status:   

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

>can anyone who has the artist skills render a reasonable 3D glenda?
>  
>
I hate to point out the obvious, but glenda _is_ 3D already.
If you examine, for instance, 
http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9dist/img/spaceglenda300.jpg,
you will notice plenty of fur and shading around the extremities.

I think what you probably mean is:
"can someone use a crappy raytracer to abuse a perfectly reasonable 
picture with lots of teeth-achingly artificial highlights",
to which the answer is
"No, unless it's done satirically, and even then, I personally would 
consider it bad taste in the extreme".

I _like_ glenda: she ain't exactly cute, she(it?)'s ... well ... Glenda!

 > something as cute as this, for example:
 >    http://webloria.loria.fr/~rougier/povray/images/tux/tux.jpg

I really, really, hope that sarcasm has been lost in transmission there.

 > also useful would be the standard raised look so familiar from MS 
Windows (light at top-left)

Howsabout flamethrower at bottom right?

DaveL.

From rs_rlab@mail.ru Fri Sep 17 05:34:09 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:14:40 +0300
From: Sergey Reva <rs_rlab@mail.ru>
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Status:   

Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 11:23:25 AM, you wrote:

KO> I got a PCI sound card, which says "Legacy audio SB16 compatible".
KO> Please remark it doesn't say SB neither SBpro.   The chip name is
KO> CMI8738/PCI-SX, note the -SX suffix!

KO> Does anyone have any experience on this sound card?

Sorry for my english :)

Yes i use this card too. If you want to turn on SB16 compatible
mode you need run special program which available only for DOS. For
this sound card available Linux driver.

I am tryed run this program, then run Plan 9  through ld.com but this
do not work.

In datashet for this chip says about SB16 mode, but i tryed run old
dos game and it say about SBPro not SB16.

Sergey Reva
-- 
http://rs-rlab.narod.ru                            mailto:rs_rlab@mail.ru







From heiko.dudzus@gmx.de Fri Sep 17 05:34:09 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:12:26 +0200
From: Heiko Dudzus <heiko.dudzus@gmx.de>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] piping to upas/spam when reading IMAP boxes
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Russ Cox wrote:
> The spam filter associated with upas/spam etc. works
> by running a filter over all incoming mail.  It is invoked
> by /mail/box/$user/pipeto when mail is delivered to
> /mail/box/$user/mbox.  If you are reading mail via IMAP,
> then presumably it's because your mail doesn't get
> delivered to Plan 9, in which case piping stuff to upas/spam
> will have no useful effect at all.

Yes, obviously.

But I do not yet have the infrastructure to get mails delivered
directly (sad enough). Instead I was reading with upas/fs.

To use the bayesian filter, I planned to get the remote mails home. It
seems like I tend to try doing this on plan9 on a wrong way, e.g. I
thought it was good idea to give them to my pipeto file. The problem
with upas/spam was of the same kind like that occuring with that
approach.

But my idea seem bullshit at all.

Would it be a better way to 'msgcat /imap/my.imap.server/myaccount' to
get remotely stored mails given to the local upas/smtp?

Which way is the easiest?

From knapjack@gmail.com Fri Sep 17 10:16:30 2004
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From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:01:26 +0100, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com> wrote:
> Howsabout flamethrower at bottom right?

Don't flame the bunny.

-J

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 17 10:16:33 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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Thanks Sergey for your comment.

I supposed something similar, that is, some work might be neccessary
to make it work as SB16 compatible.
The card attrracted me by the reason that we may have a easy way
to shift the ISA SB16 codes to PCI one if it does SB16 compatible.
We have no PCI sound driver for Plan 9 so far.

Furthermore, SBpro is 8 bit with 48KHz sampling, however, SB is 8 bit
with lesser sampling rate, which indicates no use for music.

I'm now enjoying USb audio programming...
Really? I got damaged my CM106/F chip probably because I used it 
under smaller than 500mA circumstance or plugged low impedance 
headphone to front speaker line out connection, anyway, it dosen't 
sound anymore.   I tried it on my home Win2k, and got the same no 
sound result.   I lost $40 (sigh).  
I should buy another one?   Maybe or not.   If I'll buy another CM106/F 
USb sound device, I'd like to avoid the one, at least I choose the one has 
self power supply in itself.   I'm now standing stop around there.

USB audio sounds greater than on board sound chips, it's true.
However, then, what we can do anything else by USB audio?
To use USB audio, we need independent CD/MD player with
S/PDIF or analog output.   Can we use Mini-compo?   It seems to me
toy things, then, I should buy another CD/MD player?...

Copying sounds through Plan 9 (network) to MD?   I'm not a MD user, 
in fact, I hate it.   Anything other merit for USB audio other than better
sound quality?

If we could have PCI sound driver, it may give us more benefits
than the quality of sound?   It's not easy to solve...

Anyway writing a new sound driver is a cumbersome task, I think.
First of all, which chip we trusted on?   more, more, more...
If we could use SB16 compatible chip, we can just shift the SB16
driver to PCI version.

Kenji  -- now 

--upas-fweovqsikdnfgaoeblpenvvjci
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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Wednesday, September 15, 2004, 11:23:25 AM, you wrote:

KO> I got a PCI sound card, which says "Legacy audio SB16 compatible".
KO> Please remark it doesn't say SB neither SBpro.   The chip name is
KO> CMI8738/PCI-SX, note the -SX suffix!

KO> Does anyone have any experience on this sound card?

Sorry for my english :)

Yes i use this card too. If you want to turn on SB16 compatible
mode you need run special program which available only for DOS. For
this sound card available Linux driver.

I am tryed run this program, then run Plan 9  through ld.com but this
do not work.

In datashet for this chip says about SB16 mode, but i tryed run old
dos game and it say about SBPro not SB16.

Sergey Reva
-- 
http://rs-rlab.narod.ru                            mailto:rs_rlab@mail.ru






--upas-fweovqsikdnfgaoeblpenvvjci--

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Fri Sep 17 12:55:12 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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On Thu Sep 16 21:14:36 EDT 2004, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> ...
> If we could have PCI sound driver, it may give us more benefits
> than the quality of sound?   It's not easy to solve...
> ...

Why doesn't someone do an AC'97 driver? I think there's enough
real documentation available. I started a devad driver a year or
so ago and got as far as detecting the various Intel ICH[013]
interfaces (so not a real driver). If someone was serious about
doing it I'm sure we could help.

--jim

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 17 12:55:13 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:11:14 +0900
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Status:   

I forgot one thing to say.

I started USB audio to learn how to write USB drivers, because
I thought Sape was engaged in much into USB audio.  Then, I
have to deal with USB audio if I want to read his USB codes...

Now, I think I've done it, my sound chip was damaged,
however, I think I got the working version of its driver now.
The problem is "Is it worth to deal with it anymore?"  The
device box I bought was not so good from the view point of
its toughness.  It was a cheap version of something else.
In this case, cheap means something might be lack.=E2=98=BA

I'd like to make the Richard's usb storage driver work for the
new Sape's USBD driver...

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 17 12:55:13 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:18:35 +0900
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Status:   

> Why doesn't someone do an AC'97 driver? I think there's enough
> real documentation available.=20

Even if we got AC97 driver, I suppose we'll meet the same problem
as VGA drivers...?
In the case of USB sound, it may avoid such thing, however, after
cumbersome work on a CM106/F chip, I got it's same, at least, not
so different.   To get a general solution is, I don't want to say.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Fri Sep 17 15:03:03 2004
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Status:   

On Thu Sep 16 23:18:17 EDT 2004, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> ...
> Even if we got AC97 driver, I suppose we'll meet the same problem
> as VGA drivers...?
> ...

Maybe, maybe not. How would we know if no one tries?

--jim

From cnielsen@pobox.com Fri Sep 17 15:03:04 2004
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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:25:32 -0700
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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Status:   

On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 10:45:50PM -0400, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote:
> On Thu Sep 16 21:14:36 EDT 2004, okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp wrote:
> > ...
> > If we could have PCI sound driver, it may give us more benefits
> > than the quality of sound?   It's not easy to solve...
> > ...
> 
> Why doesn't someone do an AC'97 driver? I think there's enough
> real documentation available. I started a devad driver a year or
> so ago and got as far as detecting the various Intel ICH[013]
> interfaces (so not a real driver). If someone was serious about
> doing it I'm sure we could help.

i actually have need for such a beast, but i really
don't have the time right now. maybe i'll make an
attempt this fall after fire season is over, and i
am off-call.

-- 
Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary
safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 17 20:30:34 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:09:27 +0900
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Status:   

> Now, I think I've done it, my sound chip was damaged,
> however, I think I got the working version of its driver now.
> The problem is "Is it worth to deal with it anymore?"

Today, I got a real USB audio processor made by real audio
maker in Jpan, which is SE-U55X by Onkyo.   Onkyo is the
old audio maker, and I have experiences of their audio quality
in several products.  Yes, they are doing very good quality
sound.

I spent $160 this time.   However it seems to be atrractive to me.
Now, I'm going to play with this USB audio processor, and now 
I think what and how I should do to make it work...

Kenji

From nemo@lsub.org Fri Sep 17 20:30:34 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:28:17 +0200
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Status:   

> I'd like to make the Richard's usb storage driver work for the
> new Sape's USBD driver...

I'll do the same for our usb keyboard, mouse, touch screen, and
mimio drivers.  I'll send patches when they're done.

From geoff@collyer.net Fri Sep 17 20:30:34 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:09:29 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
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Status:   

adaptive endian-ness is pretty easy; I nearly put it into
Ken's file server a few weeks ago and am now motivated to do it
to deny Sun the ability to claim that only ZFS does it.
I don't know how Sun does it, but you can do it pretty simply:
at a known offset in the first superblock of a file system,
mkfs or equivalent writes a long or vlong containing a pattern
like 0x01020304 (if the superblock already contains a suitable
magic number, that can be used instead).  When mounting the file
system, if that long looks like 0x04030201 instead, you push
the existing "x" byte-swapping pseudo file-system that knows the format
of all meta-data and byte-swaps blocks as they are read and written.

I believe that "x" was added to let x86 file servers serve
from disks written by MIPS file servers.

2^128 bytes really is vast.  Even 2^64 bytes is an awful lot
of data.  I'm sure that a few people can find a use for such
large files and a small fraction of those people probably even have
legitimate uses for them.  I think that most people will find
64-bit file servers to be adequate for quite a while (though
obviously Microsoft will continue to push hard here).  Unless
you're making clever use of sparse files, you'll have to wait
until you get afford 8 exabytes (it's actually 63-bit file
sizes if off_t or equivalent is signed) of storage (that's
9,223,372,036,854,775,808 - 8 binary exabytes - of disk, not
8 video tapes) before you can make use of file sizes larger
than 63 bits.

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Fri Sep 17 20:30:34 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
From: Lucio De Re <lucio@proxima.alt.za>
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> I believe that "x" was added to let x86 file servers serve
> from disks written by MIPS file servers.

Yep, NetBSD has had the necessary feature for a while already, I'm not
sure if it's auto-detecting, but I think it is.

++L

From rog@vitanuova.com Fri Sep 17 20:30:35 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:52:09 +0100
From: rog@vitanuova.com
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> adaptive endian-ness is pretty easy; I nearly put it into
> Ken's file server a few weeks ago
[...]
> When mounting the file
> system, if that long looks like 0x04030201 instead, you push
> the existing "x" byte-swapping pseudo file-system that knows the format
> of all meta-data and byte-swaps blocks as they are read and written.

i'm not sure that this is the kind of thing that sun is doing.  in
that press release they insist that "neither architecture pays a
byte-swapping tax" (which is what you're paying by using an extra
level of indirection).

ahh, i suppose they probably mean "neither architecture pays a
byte-swapping tax *on a filesystem created by that architecture*", in
which case you're doing something equivalent.

could they really patent such a trivial thing?

From nemo@lsub.org Fri Sep 17 20:30:35 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:27:11 +0200
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> that press release they insist that "neither architecture pays a
> byte-swapping tax" (which is what you're paying by using an extra
> level of indirection).

Someone has to swap them, if they don't use the same order.

> ahh, i suppose they probably mean "neither architecture pays a
> byte-swapping tax *on a filesystem created by that architecture*", in
> which case you're doing something equivalent.

I think it has to be the same thing, or a similar trick.

> could they really patent such a trivial thing?

Well, I think there are patents on even more simple things.

From nigel@9fs.org Fri Sep 17 23:57:04 2004
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>>ahh, i suppose they probably mean "neither architecture pays a
>>byte-swapping tax *on a filesystem created by that architecture*", in
>>which case you're doing something equivalent.
>>    
>>
We think that they mean "both architecture are taxed the same". With all 
that
space in their 128 bit filesystem, they can store all the offsets in ASCII.

From brucee@chunder.com Fri Sep 17 23:57:04 2004
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Status:   

i knew the 128 bit registers and instructions in the ps2
would come in handy for something absurd.  actually ZFS
doesn't go close to journalfs where all quantities are
arbitrary length.  i don't intend to add mpseek() in
case i need it, nor mpstat() etc.

brucee

> 2^128 bytes really is vast.  Even 2^64 bytes is an awful lot
> of data.

From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Sep 20 21:26:12 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:21:28 -0600 (MDT)
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 rog@vitanuova.com wrote:

> could they really patent such a trivial thing

Hey, it's the US. The old saying used to be that a clever prosecutor could 
get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. Now you can patent it.

ron

From russcox@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:13 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:17:27 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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I received a couple reports from people that under 
recent versions of VMware, snarf passing
between Plan 9 and the host OS wasn't 
working.  Specifically /mnt/vmware/snarf was
always zero.

I installed VMware 4.5.2 build 8848 on Windows XP
and tried it out, but it seemed to be working fine.

Has anyone else seen problems on recent VMwares?
If so, what host OS are you using?  What version of
VMware?  What are the details of the problems?

Thanks.
Russ

From bmaroshe@itcollege.ee Mon Sep 20 21:26:13 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:21:08 +0300
From: bmaroshe@itcollege.ee
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

It seems very unlikely to me, that Europe will not follow this path in a few weeks.

"We want to build picket fences around the technologies that we think are most important for the future."
 --AT&T IP department vice president Jeff George in 2000

"You get value from patents in two ways: through fees, and through licensing negotiations that give IBM access to other patents. The IBM patent portfolio gains us the freedom to do what we need to do through cross-licensing--it gives us access to the inventions of others that are the key to rapid innovation. Access is far more valuable to IBM than the fees it receives from its 9,000 active patents. There's no direct calculation of this value, but it's many times larger than the fee income, perhaps an order of magnitude larger."
 --IBM assistant general counsel Roger Smith in 1990

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
 --Isaac Newton

boris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
Date: Friday, September 17, 2004 6:21 pm
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS

> 
> 
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 rog@vitanuova.com wrote:
> 
> > could they really patent such a trivial thing
> 
> Hey, it's the US. The old saying used to be that a clever 
> prosecutor could 
> get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. Now you can patent it.
> 
> ron
> 

From mteege@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:13 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:45:08 +0159
From: Matthias Teege <mteege@gmail.com>
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:17:27 -0400, Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone else seen problems on recent VMwares?
> If so, what host OS are you using?  What version of
> VMware?  What are the details of the problems?

I use VMWare 4.5.2-8848 under Linux. Snarf/Paste never worked under
VMWare on this system. If I disable Copy/Paste in VMWare I can
snarf/paste between rio and sam. If I enable copy/paste in VMWare I
can copy from hostsystem to plan9 but not from plan9 to hostsystem. In
this case snarf/paste from rio to sam doesn't work to.

Matthias

From newsham@lava.net Mon Sep 20 21:26:14 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:54:48 -1000 (HST)
From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] OT: ZFS
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> Someone has to swap them, if they don't use the same order.

Not really..  Could be ascii.  xml even.  ;-)

Tim N.

From brucee@chunder.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:17 2004
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anyone had any experience with these things?

http://www.soekris.com/

brucee

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Sep 20 21:26:17 2004
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http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/mahjongg/

enjoy, but don't beat me over the code much.

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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Ahaha, Andrey, you are very enthusiastic to Plan 9 games.
Thank you very much, all the students here will enjoy them!

Me?   I'm too old to do so, which means the person is aware of
his/her total length of lifetime, sigh.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

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http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/mahjongg/

enjoy, but don't beat me over the code much.
--upas-dbwvlnfwszvmxuanmzrotojzut--

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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Status:   

> Today, I got a real USB audio processor made by real audio
> maker in Jpan, which is SE-U55X by Onkyo.   

This has very simple topology, that is, has no mixer, selector
just do it by hand or optical remote control (the last USB vendor
ID is 0xff, Oh no, vendor specific!).   It also has only two channels,
this is also very good to me.   I never want 8 channels!   Anyway, 
if you just hear the music connected to its digital/analog input, 
no drivers are neccessary, just plug it then enjoy the music!    
It has also self power supply mechanis using external 500mA 
7.5V power supply,   I'm using this mode now. 
Glenn Gould is now playing Bach.

Sound quality?
very nice!

Kenji

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] mahjongg
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:21:04 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> Ahaha, Andrey, you are very enthusiastic to Plan 9 games.
> Thank you very much, all the students here will enjoy them!
> 

i'm trying to show that it's easy to write board games for plan 9 in a
few hundred lines of (admittedly not stellar) code. and the games don't
have to necessarily look like they were found on an old AppleII disk.

hopefully others will find it gratifying to spend a day or two
implementing something or other for their own amusement.  it doesn't
have to be hard :)

andrey

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] mahjongg
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:42:09 +0900
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Status:   

> http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/mahjongg/

'Kyodai' isn't Kyoto Univ., interesting!

Kenji

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:44:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   

and... we have the first bug -- clicking on tiles obscures them completely
in drawterm (and perhaps in other bpp's less than 16, such as vmware). i've
added the '-c' option which forces it to use an RGBA32 buffer image. this
is very slow on native plan 9 at least with the S3 card, therefore it's
not the default option.

andrey

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:

> http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/mahjongg/
>
> enjoy, but don't beat me over the code much.
>

From brantley@coraid.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:18 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] soekris boards
From: Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

I've written a system that ran on the 4501 and still
have a few.  I've still got some and some 4801s.  I'm
going to try to put Plan 9 on them when I get a chance.
Seems like it would make a great secstore.  Maybe even
an auth server.

 Brantley

On Fri, 2004-09-17 at 20:25, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> anyone had any experience with these things?
> 
> http://www.soekris.com/
> 
> brucee

From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Sep 20 21:26:19 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:31:34 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Bruce Ellis wrote:

> anyone had any experience with these things?

no, but ... bastards! soldered on BIOS part :-)

no good to me :-)

ron

From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Sep 20 21:26:19 2004
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From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Brantley Coile wrote:

> I've written a system that ran on the 4501 and still
> have a few.  I've still got some and some 4801s.  I'm
> going to try to put Plan 9 on them when I get a chance.
> Seems like it would make a great secstore.  Maybe even
> an auth server.

plan 9 does run fine on a geode, those look about the same as my geode 
cluster boards.

ron

From knapjack@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:20 2004
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From: Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com>
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:25:04 +1000, Bruce Ellis <brucee@chunder.com> wrote:
> anyone had any experience with these things?

It would be fun to throw a little PCI video card on there if possible,
but I like the little case.

It does seem perfect for a secstore, or maybe a VPN router (or IPv6 bridge).

-Jack

From brantley@coraid.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:24 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] soekris boards
From: Brantley Coile <brantley@coraid.com>
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Status:   

That's not a problem.  The firmware includes code to reburn the bios. 
It's not just like a PC bios--there are some debugging
stuff in there.  It also PXE boots.

On Sat, 2004-09-18 at 00:31, Ronald G. Minnich wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> 
> > anyone had any experience with these things?
> 
> no, but ... bastards! soldered on BIOS part :-)
> 
> no good to me :-)
> 
> ron

From davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu Mon Sep 20 21:26:26 2004
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Status:   

> anyone had any experience with these things?
>
> http://www.soekris.com/

I haven't personally but I know a bunch of people
who use them and are happy with them.

Dave Eckhardt

From russcox@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:27 2004
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Subject: [9fans] Re: vmware support broken in new vmwares?
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I just put a new aux/vmwarefs on sources.
Pull to get it, then reboot, and the snarf problems
should go away.  If they don't, please let me know
as soon as possible.

The other problems seem to be with VMware not
letting go of the mouse properly when it reaches
the borders.  I'm going to work on that next.

Russ

From rminnich@lanl.gov Mon Sep 20 21:26:32 2004
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Status:   



On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Brantley Coile wrote:

> That's not a problem.  The firmware includes code to reburn the bios. 

yeah, people are doing that now. You get a chunk of the flash part that is 
not eraseable. The problem is that chunk does a lot of "special" setup 
that in many cases is not what you want ... 

ron

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:36 2004
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Subject: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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Hi Everyone,

I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
widely recognized, understood,
and used.

I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
appreciated.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

From mteege@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:38 2004
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Moin,

I try to change the acme font (acme from unix ports) with
acme -F fonts/fixed/unicode.6x9.font without success. Is
it possible to use another font? What do I missing?

Matthias

From mteege@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:38 2004
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On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:41:35 +0900, Vester Thacker
<vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
> appreciated.

I'm interested to. There is a yearly "hacker congress" in
Berlin/Germany (http://www.ccc.de/congress/2004/) between the years
and I think to go there
with a Plan9 network. Maybe someone else is interested.

Matthias

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Sep 20 21:26:38 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] acme port and fonts
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:46:07 -0600
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Status:   

> Moin,
> 
> I try to change the acme font (acme from unix ports) with
> acme -F fonts/fixed/unicode.6x9.font without success. Is
> it possible to use another font? What do I missing?
> 
> Matthias

you need to middle-click the text 'Font' to switch to the fixed-width
one.  if you use '-f' instead, you'll change the variable-width font,
which is what acme displays by default.

all that assumes you have given a full path name to the font file.

andrey

From russcox@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:38 2004
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> I try to change the acme font (acme from unix ports) with
> acme -F fonts/fixed/unicode.6x9.font without success. Is
> it possible to use another font? What do I missing?

Like on Plan 9, -F changes the fixed-width font.  -f changes the normal font.

acme -F $PLAN9/font/fixed/unicode.6x9.font works,
but you don't see the results until you execute Font to change
some window to fixed-width.

Russ

From russcox@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:38 2004
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> I try to change the acme font (acme from unix ports) with
> acme -F fonts/fixed/unicode.6x9.font without success. Is
> it possible to use another font? What do I missing?

Like on Plan 9, -F changes the fixed-width font.  -f changes the normal font.

acme -F $PLAN9/font/fixed/unicode.6x9.font works,
but you don't see the results until you execute Font to change
some window to fixed-width.

Russ

From bmaroshe@itcollege.ee Mon Sep 20 21:26:39 2004
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From: Boris Maryshev <bmaroshe@itcollege.ee>
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Status:   

I'll be talking about Plan 9 somewhere in late October to estonian grid 
people (http://grid.eenet.ee/wiki/pmwiki.php/GridiWiki/GriidiSeminar).

One obvious and classic demo would be some parralel graphics rendering on 
Plan 9 machines, more serious ideas anyone?

Boris

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Matthias Teege wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:41:35 +0900, Vester Thacker
> <vester.thacker@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
>> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
>> appreciated.
>
> I'm interested to. There is a yearly "hacker congress" in
> Berlin/Germany (http://www.ccc.de/congress/2004/) between the years
> and I think to go there
> with a Plan9 network. Maybe someone else is interested.
>
> Matthias

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Status:   


> One obvious and classic demo would be some parralel graphics rendering on 
> Plan 9 machines, more serious ideas anyone?
> 
> Boris
> 

i'd say rendering graphics on separate machines is more of an example
of cluster computing than grid computing.

what Plan 9 has and other systems lack (exclusing inferno), is an easy way to share
resources between computers.  examples of that could be as simple as
mounting the two ends of a pipe, #|, on two different systems and
having programs talk to each other through them.  importing network
stacks or sources.cs are other good examples -- run 'history' on
sources.cs and you have a rough equivalent of cvs.

furthermore, you're not limited in what you can share with plan 9.
have a supported hardware device (canonical example is an audio
player)?  well, you could share it everywhere -- just import its
driver interface.

so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
import it from university and watch tv!  (well, my network isn't fast
enough for that, but grids have never been about speed :) or look at
nemo's work using redirfs and x10 -- the music follows you when you
move around the rooms in a building.  all you need is to remount the
right /dev/audio under your music player's stream.

none of this requires any special clients -- it's all 'ls', 'cat',
'grep' and 'sed', mount and exportfs.

perhaps a good example you could use is to import /dev/draw from
several plan 9 computers and have them render a static image:

	http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/lanlp9/newnetwork/pw.html

andrey

ps: the definition of grid computing i use, 'sharing resources across
administrative domains', may not be universally adopted.

pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?

From nemo@lsub.org Mon Sep 20 21:26:44 2004
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> pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?

Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?

From nemo@lsub.org Mon Sep 20 21:26:44 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I've found that `simple things' (Well, for those using plan 9)
are impressive for others. For example, importing the audio
device across machines, importing a remote disk and setting
up a mirror, etc.

Also, if it's a demo for programmers, comparing the source code
of simple programs from /sys/src/cmd (lc -s might be enough)
catches people attention.

hth

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Hi Everyone,

I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
widely recognized, understood,
and used.

I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
appreciated.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker
--upas-nqdtqtuqmympzljouzjnfaqtmc--

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> > Someone has to swap them, if they don't use the same order.
>
> Not really..  Could be ascii.  xml even.  ;-)

If you extend ASCII to directory entries, and outlaw \n in filenames,
using it instead to terminate the directory entry, you could have
cat'able directories.  That'd be pretty cool. :-)

Arnold

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> I also have implementations of the
> POSIX %4$d stuff and %'d stuff, with plans for %'f.  Joy.

It's a trip, ain't it?  I did the %4$d stuff for gawk, which allows
i18n-ing an awk program.  T'was a pain.

The %'d stuff isn't terrible, and I'm lucky that I can punt to sprintf
for %'f and the other floating point formats.  (Quote, Let someone else
do the hard part, Unquote :-)

I have to wonder if the POSIX people got this stuff right.  The recent
versions of gawk follow the POSIX standard, which says that floating
point numbers *in the text of the awk program* always use `.' for the
radix point, but use the locale's radix point for *input and output data*.

Fine and good, but I have gotten complaints from people in non-C locales
wondering why their data is no longer interpreted by gawk the way it
used to be...

This whole area is one where you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Whatever,

Arnold

From mteege@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:45 2004
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Moin,

my fileserver is filled now and I need a new one. What is a
recommended configuration? Is it usefull to put cpu- and fileserver on
one machine? I don't need much performance. I would like to put all
data from all servers (arround 100 GB) on one plan9 fileserver.

Many thanks
Matthias

From nemo@lsub.org Mon Sep 20 21:26:45 2004
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We use a single machine for our auth, venti and fossil. It has
4 IDE disks and is enough four the use we do here.

hth
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Moin,

my fileserver is filled now and I need a new one. What is a
recommended configuration? Is it usefull to put cpu- and fileserver on
one machine? I don't need much performance. I would like to put all
data from all servers (arround 100 GB) on one plan9 fileserver.

Many thanks
Matthias
--upas-jyvzbfrkfqlhagoiurirgnwvzt--

From mteege@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:45 2004
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:28:21 +0200, Fco. J. Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> We use a single machine for our auth, venti and fossil. It has
> 4 IDE disks and is enough four the use we do here.

Do you use any kind of mirror? How much RAM and processor are you using?
Matthias

From nemo@lsub.org Mon Sep 20 21:26:46 2004
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Yes. It's 4 IDE setup so that devfs exports them as 2 disks.
512M of ram. I'd put 1 or 2 Gbytes of ram.

BTW, we also copy the venti arenas to another machine that has
two other disks in mirror; just in case our primary server burns out.
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:28:21 +0200, Fco. J. Ballesteros <nemo@lsub.org> wrote:
> We use a single machine for our auth, venti and fossil. It has
> 4 IDE disks and is enough four the use we do here.

Do you use any kind of mirror? How much RAM and processor are you using?
Matthias
--upas-kkxmurtijqtxvqpxsojpyooygm--

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 20 21:26:47 2004
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From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
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Hi Everyone,

A friend of mine wrote asking "Why doesn't somebody write a generic
Plan9-to-Linux-video-api shim? It would be inefficient as all getout,
I suppose, but anybody who can't live without playing Doom on Plan 9
is perverted enough that a quick call to hyaku-to-ban is in order."

Being a Plan 9 advocate, I'm sure that I'll get this asked this question again.
I don't have an answer for him.  Anyone care to comment? 

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

p.s. Hyaku-to-ban is japanese for police station.

From nigel@9fs.org Tue Sep 21 07:37:03 2004
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Status:   

Vester Thacker wrote:

>Hi Everyone,
>
>A friend of mine wrote asking "Why doesn't somebody write a generic
>Plan9-to-Linux-video-api shim? It would be inefficient as all getout,
>I suppose, but anybody who can't live without playing Doom on Plan 9
>is perverted enough that a quick call to hyaku-to-ban is in order."
>
>Being a Plan 9 advocate, I'm sure that I'll get this asked this question again.
>I don't have an answer for him.  Anyone care to comment? 
>
>--Vester "Vic" Thacker
>
>p.s. Hyaku-to-ban is japanese for police station.
>
>  
>
Not sure what you are proposing. Do you mean incorporate Linux drivers into
Plan 9? I think you are referring to graphics drivers, but you might 
mean video
(as in video for linux). Whatever way up it is, it's not a shim. Drivers 
are not
standalone objects in any operating system; they rely on a whole environment
provided by other parts of the operating system.

If you want graphics drivers, then you probably actually want a 'shim' to
XFree86 as that is where Linux gets most of its graphics drivers from.
Alternatively, you could work with the framebuffer device drivers; there
are less of them, but more than there are for Plan 9!

Is this what you had in mind?

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Tue Sep 21 07:37:03 2004
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From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
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Status:   

I believe my friend was refering along the lines of creating an
abstraction layer that would allow for linux graphic drivers to be
used with Plan 9. I could be mistaken.

If so, I'm not necessarily advocating that idea. It is apparent that
Plan 9 lacks support for many video cards. I suppose what my friend is
 really saying to me is that there has to be an easier way to provide
graphic driver support.

My friend is an Economist, so his thinking might go along the lines of
doing something with the least effort and producing maximum gain.  I
apologize if this obfuscates the earlier question.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Sep 21 07:37:03 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:50:37 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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>> pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?
>=20
> Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?

i didn't know what it is until recently either.  on many of today's
servers (pretty much all AMD64 boxes I've seen) you get not one but
two network interfaces.  channel bonding allows you to use both of
them for sending data as if they are one.  some people report almost
double the bandwidth, but i've only seen 1.2Gbps with netpipe on
untuned broadcom GigEs.

for channel bonding you need either all machines on the subnet to be
talking it, or the router's support.  the linux module is called
'bonding', there's a reasonable explanation in the kernel source
tree's Documentation/.

i was thinking that redirfs could be used to send packets over two
alternating /net interfaces.  a level of indirection above /net may be
na=C3=AFve and slow, but it don't seem all that hard to implement, maybe.

andrey

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Subject: Re: [9fans] Generic Plan 9 to Linux video api shim.
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Status:   

Vester Thacker wrote:

>I believe my friend was refering along the lines of creating an
>abstraction layer that would allow for linux graphic drivers to be
>used with Plan 9. I could be mistaken.
>
>If so, I'm not necessarily advocating that idea. It is apparent that
>Plan 9 lacks support for many video cards. I suppose what my friend is
> really saying to me is that there has to be an easier way to provide
>graphic driver support.
>
>My friend is an Economist, so his thinking might go along the lines of
>doing something with the least effort and producing maximum gain.  I
>apologize if this obfuscates the earlier question.
>
>--Vester "Vic" Thacker
>
>  
>
Well, then my answer was reasonably accurate. The only pure Linux drivers
for video cards are those that are part of the framebuffer driver. These 
have
better coverage than Plan 9 but, interestingly, exhibit the same issues 
as Plan 9
drivers: they tend only to work for the cards that the developers had to 
hand,
as vga documentation is either unavailable, or moderately misleading. As 
soon
as the manufacturers obselete one card, and introduce another, the driver is
close to useless.

I'm told that the linux-fb matrox drivers are not too bad, but then 
again that's true for
Plan 9, because the manufacturer provides goodish documentation.

So in reality Linux users use XFree86/X.Org drivers which are not part of
Linux, as they work a lot better.

Writing a 'shim' for XFree86 is a major undertaking. I've considered it, and
I expect other have too.



From nigel@9fs.org Tue Sep 21 07:37:03 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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Status:   

andrey mirtchovski wrote:

>>>pps: can redirfs be used for channel bonding, i wonder?
>>>      
>>>
>>Excuse my ignorance, what're you thinking about?
>>    
>>
>
>i didn't know what it is until recently either.  on many of today's
>servers (pretty much all AMD64 boxes I've seen) you get not one but
>two network interfaces.  channel bonding allows you to use both of
>them for sending data as if they are one.  some people report almost
>double the bandwidth, but i've only seen 1.2Gbps with netpipe on
>untuned broadcom GigEs.
>
>  
>
How were they connected to the CPU? If they are on a PCI (not X)
bus then it's not surprising they are limited to 1.2Gbps. Also, the
broadcom linux drivers seem to use twice as much CPU as the
equivalent Intel chips.


From cjones83@csc.com Tue Sep 21 07:37:04 2004
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From: Caerwyn B Jones <cjones83@csc.com>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Generic Plan 9 to Linux video api shim.
To: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>,
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> I believe my friend was refering along the lines of creating an
> abstraction layer that would allow for linux graphic drivers to be
> used with Plan 9. I could be mistaken.

This has already been done for Inferno. The "shim" is called Linux ;)



From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Sep 21 07:37:04 2004
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> How were they connected to the CPU? If they are on a PCI (not X)
> bus then it's not surprising they are limited to 1.2Gbps. Also, the
> broadcom linux drivers seem to use twice as much CPU as the
> equivalent Intel chips.

they were on-board broadcoms.  the machines are amd64, so i don't
expect them to be optimized.

people have had better performance with 32-bit boxes but i've never
tried them.

From nemo@lsub.org Tue Sep 21 07:37:04 2004
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> i was thinking that redirfs could be used to send packets over two
> alternating /net interfaces.  a level of indirection above /net may be
> na=C3=AFve and slow, but it don't seem all that hard to implement, mayb=
e.

Hmm. I think that would be an overkill. Perhaps doing that within the dri=
ver
layer could be better.

From nigel@9fs.org Tue Sep 21 07:37:04 2004
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From: Nigel Roles <nigel@9fs.org>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Generic Plan 9 to Linux video api shim.
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Caerwyn B Jones wrote:

>
>
>  
>
>>I believe my friend was refering along the lines of creating an
>>abstraction layer that would allow for linux graphic drivers to be
>>used with Plan 9. I could be mistaken.
>>    
>>
>
>This has already been done for Inferno. The "shim" is called Linux ;)
>
>
>
>  
>
Quite. VMware is another example.


From christian.grothaus@gmail.com Tue Sep 21 07:37:05 2004
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:34:37 +0200
From: Christian Grothaus <christian.grothaus@gmail.com>
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Subject: [9fans] jet-lagged fossil
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Dear 9fans,

two days ago, I installed Plan 9 on a laptop, choosing fossil
as the file system (I plan to use it without Venti).
After setting up, I made an archival and an "ordinary" snapshot,
set snaptime and verified that automatic snapshots are taken.

Then, as an inhabitant of middle Europe, I wanted to set the
timezone appropriately.
Copying /adm/timezone/CET to /adm/timezone/local doesn't work:
The first line in /adm/timezone/CET is "CET 3600 CEST 7200".
But during daylight saving time, the timezone is not set to
GMT + 7200 but to GMT + 0. I think the problem is the four letter
string "CEST". If it is replaced by, say, "CDT", then the
timezone is being set correctly.
(Actually, to set the timezone, I always use a file "MET", which
also was part of earlier distributions, and which is identical
to CET except that the first line is "MET 3600 MDT 7200".
Why was this file dropped from the distribution?)

The problem is now, that after changing the timezone in that way,
fossil no longer takes snapshots automatically.

If I change the timezone back to US_Eastern, then it works again.
Is there something wrong with my timezone setting? Or is there
a way to "reset" fossil?

Thanks,

Christian

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Tue Sep 21 07:37:05 2004
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:39:38 -0400
From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: christian.grothaus@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] jet-lagged fossil
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Status:   

It has been mentioned before that 4-letter strings don't work for
timezones. If someone has the fix already I'll be happy to take it,
otherwise I'll take a look in a little while.

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 21 17:31:58 2004
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To: vester.thacker@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:47:16 +0900
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> I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
> presentations in Japan. It is my desire to help Plan 9 become more
> widely recognized, understood,
> and used.

You mean Expo in Japan?  If so which Expo? When?
In a general sense, I think it's nice to us, Plan 9 users.

> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.  Any help or advice is greatly
> appreciated.

If you need some help on Japanese input etc, I can help you.

I had a negative experience of such kind at Vita's lecture series at
Tokyo.   Very few people attended, probably because of very highly
expensive fee, and it was undertaken in English in Japan.  Another
negative factor at that time was a problem of Japanese counterpart
of Vita.   They had no will to make it success, never advertized etc.

If you are planning it seriously, you should know most of Japanese
programmers cannot hear/speak English.   They are not so educated
at the Univ. etc.   Here, I don't mean that those programmers are
lesser quality, rather opposite sense.   The programmer who hear/speaks
English may be educated outside, which means thay may have miss
understanding of Japanese's needs for those problems.   Great=20
programmers I know in Japan cannot ususally speak/hear English.

Most of so-called Japanese establishments in IT industry are those=20
who knows little about technology, rather they are just working in
economics or politics=E2=98=BA area.   They are just copying the new inve=
ntions
at US, sigh...

Kenji

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Tue Sep 21 17:31:59 2004
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To: vester.thacker@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:06:31 +0900
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Status:   

On Sun Sep 19 21:42:08 JST 2004, Vester Thacker wrote:
> I want to create a Plan 9 demo/exhibit for an Expo and for local
> presentations in Japan.
 :
> I am looking for suggestions for creating a demo, and any lessons
> learned from earlier attempts.

Those ideas targeting to programmars were already mentioned in the list.
So I will go another way...  How about creating a simple fossil server
running aquarela and distributing its pre-installed vmware image, so that
they can just copy and start the server in their PCs?

There should be none who doesn't appreciate archival/ephemeral
snapshot feature of fossil.
-- 


From benavento@gmail.com Tue Sep 21 17:31:59 2004
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:25:18 -0300
From: Federico Benavento <benavento@gmail.com>
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Subject: [9fans] motorola sb4200 - sis900 problem
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Status:   

Hi,

I=B4ve installed Plan 9, and now I=B4m trying to configure the network.
I=B4ve compiled a standalone cpu-auth server with the driver for=20
the sis900 (my network card).
and added "ether0=3Dtype=3Dsis" to my plan9.ini so Plan 9 knows about it.
I=B4ve connected my cable modem (sb4200) to my ethernet card,  but it doesn=
=B4t
work.
On linux and winxp, I use the sb4200 works fine when connected to the USB p=
ort.
But it doesn=B4t work att all when connected to the sis900.
Apparently the sis900 works fine.

 The problem seems to be within the sb4200, which tries to interface
by the USB port.

I know that it isn=B4t a Plan 9 problem, but I wonder if you could give
me some hints.

thanks

--------------------------------------------
Federico Benavento

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 21 17:31:59 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] mahjongg
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:40:11 +0900
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> http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/mahjongg/
>=20
> enjoy, but don't beat me over the code much.

Well, I installed it onto my home Plan 9, and I played with it
about 25 times in the last Sunday.   Well... I got 3 times wins.=E2=98=BA

Andrey, this is really good game to me, and thanks agian.

Kenji

From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Sep 21 17:32:00 2004
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:13:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
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Subject: [9fans] quick status report on Xen
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Status:   

Well, getting there:

Plan 9 under Xen arps for the server

11:55:04.095528 aa:0:0:0:0:11 Broadcast arp 60: arp who-has 10.0.0.1 tell 
10.0.0.21

Linux (in this case) replies:

11:55:04.096137 0:c:29:fd:6:5b aa:0:0:0:0:11 arp 42: arp reply 10.0.0.1 
is-at 0:c:29:fd:6:5b

Plan 9 tries to get some help at port 5356 (?? I thought I wanted 536)
11:55:06.125196 aa:0:0:0:0:11 0:c:29:fd:6:5b ip 62: 10.0.0.21.21468 > 
10.0.0.1.5356: S [tcp sum ok] 3596986116:3596986116(0) win 65535 <mss 
1460,wscale 0,nop> (ttl 255, id 3, len 48)

anyways, closer ... I hope to release my ugly initial code soon.

ron

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Tue Sep 21 22:20:24 2004
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:29:13 +0900
From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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Status:   

On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 10:47:16AM +0900, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
>
> You mean Expo in Japan?  If so which Expo? When?
> In a general sense, I think it's nice to us, Plan 9 users.

Yes. I was considering opening a booth at Open Source World 2005. I'm
still working on a plan. I'll have another TIP9UG meeting next month
and shall solicite for ideas and voluteers. Anyone interested is more
than welcome to help.

> If you need some help on Japanese input etc, I can help you.

Thank you. I'm sure that I'll need help. :-)

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

From christian.grothaus@gmail.com Tue Sep 21 22:20:24 2004
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:55:01 +0200
From: Christian Grothaus <christian.grothaus@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

I should have looked in the archives more thoroughly:
The problem with automatic snapshots has been reported before,
and a possible workaround is setting the timezone to 'GMT 0'.

I found out that it also works in any timezone, when the
real time clock is set to GMT and timesync is run without
the 'L' flag.
(Then, of course, Windows doesn't get the time correctly, but
never mind. I prefer this solution at the moment.)

But I really don't understand at the moment, why it doesn't
work. Here is the beginning of the snapEvent() function
in /sys/src/cmd/fossil/fs.c:

-----------------------------------------------------------
static void
snapEvent(void *v)
{
	Snap *s;
	u32int now, min;
	Tm tm;
	int need;

	s = v;

	now = time(0)/60;
	vtLock(s->lk);

	/*
	 * Snapshots happen every snapMinutes minutes.
	 * If we miss a snapshot (for example, because we
	 * were down), we wait for the next one.
	 */
	if(s->snapMinutes != ~0 && s->snapMinutes != 0
	&& now%s->snapMinutes==0 && now != s->lastSnap){
		if(!fsSnapshot(s->fs, nil, nil, 0))
			fprint(2, "fsSnapshot snap: %R\n");
		s->lastSnap = now;
	}
        .
        .
        .
-----------------------------------------------------------

So the setting of the timezone should have no influence on
periodic non-archival snapshots, since the time is computed
with time()?!

Christian

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 21 22:20:24 2004
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To: vester.thacker@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:57:12 +0900
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> Yes. I was considering opening a booth at Open Source World 2005.=20

Then, we have some time to discuss on it.
Can someone send his request to some Japanese mailing-list or something?
I don't subscribe none of those.=E2=98=BA

>I'm
> still working on a plan. I'll have another TIP9UG meeting=20

Sorry, I'm not a person of IT world, what does this mean TIP9UG...
I guess 9UG may be 9 users group...

Kenji

From vthacker@0xfe.org Tue Sep 21 22:20:24 2004
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:33:17 +0900
From: vthacker@0xfe.org
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 05:57:12PM +0900, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I'm not a person of IT world, what does this mean TIP9UG...
> I guess 9UG may be 9 users group...

Sorry. TIP9UG == Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group (www.tip9ug.jp).

Previously it was the Tokyo Plan 9 Users Group. Since our last meeting
had numerous Inferno discussions, I added Inferno to the name. 
Takeshi Yamanashi had much to do with it. :-)

--Vester

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 21 22:20:24 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:36:45 +0900
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> had numerous Inferno discussions, I added Inferno to the name. 

I'm a Inferno end member, seldom use it except only for tetris.

> Takeshi Yamanashi had much to do with it. :-)

Hm, he is also an Inferno user.   Do you have anything to say
here, Takeshi?   I don't know him actually...

Kenji

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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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> Sorry. TIP9UG == Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group (www.tip9ug.jp).

Now, I remind that it was this March when I was in US, and couldn't
attend...

Kenji

From listas1@thekix.com Tue Sep 21 22:20:26 2004
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Hi!

I am trying to install plan9 in my PCG-FX105K (uk) laptop and I have a 
problem.

I downloaded the diskette (640x480x8 LCD, 1024x768x8 LCD, ...) and I 
installed plan9 without problems in graphics mode, but when the 
installation is completed and the system reboots fails.

Plan9 boots, in text mode, and when I select the user "glenda" the 
graphics mode starts and the LCD turns black.

What can I do.

Thanks.

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Wed Sep 22 09:21:17 2004
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> I downloaded the diskette (640x480x8 LCD, 1024x768x8 LCD, ...) and I 
> installed plan9 without problems in graphics mode, but when the 
> installation is completed and the system reboots fails.

If you could install in graphics mode, chances are good that the vgadb
in the distribution is not as clever as the one used by the install
image.  You'll have to figure a way to overwrite the former with the
latter.  Either that or you're restricted to 600x480x8, which sucks.

++L

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep 22 19:43:06 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:21:55 +0900
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On Tue Sep 21 18:36:16 JST 2004, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> Hm, he is also an Inferno user.   Do you have anything to say
> here, Takeshi?   I don't know him actually...

I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
kanji on Plan 9.  Inferno accepts kanji character input from
Windows IME 2000.  Limbo programming is a great fun too.
-- 


From russcox@gmail.com Wed Sep 22 19:43:06 2004
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Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:59:36 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] plan9ports rio patch
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> i've attached a patch for the current source for rio from plan9ports.  it
> appends a window id to menu items which are duplicated in the menu,
> making it easier to locate a certain client.  somebody else might find
> it useful.

i'm curious which clients you have many of that
don't do the right thing.  perhaps a better solution
is to arrange for them to have distinguishing names that
are more useful than foo <1> and foo <2>?

the main thing i have a lot of is 9terms, and i usually
use awd to set their labels to the current directory.

russ

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Wed Sep 22 19:43:06 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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Status:   

> I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
> kanji on Plan 9.

I've never have such a case, what situation?=20

> Inferno accepts kanji character input from
> Windows IME 2000.

Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.   I have no Win environment
here at work though.=E2=98=BA

>  Limbo programming is a great fun too.

great joy as a minor?

According to my understanding, if wrong correct me, Plan 9 has its
strong policy, and which attracts me much.   However, there is little
thing that cannot be done by other than Plan 9.  =20

In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is=20
little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.   This is the=20
reason why I'm engaged in Plan 9, but not in Inferno.

Kenji

From uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp Wed Sep 22 19:43:07 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: YAMANASHI Takeshi <uncover@beat.cc.titech.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:10:52 +0900
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Status:   

On Wed Sep 22 10:14:52 JST 2004, Kenji Okamoto wrote:
> > I used to use acme on Inferno when I didn't have a way to input
> > kanji on Plan 9.
> I've never have such a case, what situation?

There has been ktrans always but the program seemed not
good enough for my daily use then.  I eventually made an
skk-like input program myself. But until then, I used inferno acme.


> > Inferno accepts kanji character input from
> > Windows IME 2000.
> Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.

No, it's not.  It was Inferno 3rd ed. on Windows NT4 and two years ago.


> >  Limbo programming is a great fun too.
> great joy as a minor?

Again, no. :)
Limbo is a good programming language.  Every shortcomings in C
is fixed in Limbo, I think.  Modularity, tuple, array, parallel
programming & communication, etc.  At the same time, Limbo stays
simple and clean compared to other newer languages like c++, java.
Good tools give their user joy on using them.


> In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is 
> little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.

My understanding is that Inferno is built around the same strong policy
as Plan 9, a file sharing protocol.  But the implementation is different.
It's written in Limbo rather than C.
-- 


From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Wed Sep 22 19:43:08 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:36:07 +0900
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Status:   

>> I've never have such a case, what situation?
> 
> There has been ktrans always but the program seemed not
> good enough for my daily use then. 

I've never experienced this exepting names, and Japanes address which
were intentionally removed from the default dictionary.   This is because
it depends on each person's need.

>> > Inferno accepts kanji character input from
>> > Windows IME 2000.
>> Hm, then, that Inferno must be new version.
> 
> No, it's not.  It was Inferno 3rd ed. on Windows NT4 and two years ago.

Is it.   I seldom use Inferno, so I may ignorant of this, I'll try it at home soon.

>> In the case of Inferno, I don't feel such a strong policy, and there is 
>> little that cannot be done by other than Inferno either.
> 
> My understanding is that Inferno is built around the same strong policy
> as Plan 9, a file sharing protocol.  But the implementation is different.
> It's written in Limbo rather than C.

Many people says so.   Then, why they don't work more actively?

Kenji

From mteege@gmail.com Wed Sep 22 19:43:12 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:22:11 +0200
From: Matthias Teege <mteege@gmail.com>
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Subject: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

Moin,

i'll build my new venti/fossil/cpu/auth all in one plan9 server now
but I'm not sure about the supported hardware. I select a AMD64, an
ASUS A8V DEL S939 VIAKT800PRO with SATA and 4 BARRACUDAs with 120GB.
The specs of the mainboard are at
http://uk.asus.com/prog/spec.asp?m=A8V%20Deluxe&langs=11. Im not sure
about AMD64,SATA and the on board GBit Ethernet. Ethernet isn't a
problem because I can use a simple Intel Etherexpress but ist plan9
supporting SATA and AMD64. Can somebody recommend another working
system with actual hardware?

Many thanks
Matthias

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Wed Sep 22 19:43:12 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:33:10 +0900
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Status:   

> so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
> import it from university and watch tv!  

What is the name of this TV tuner card?
Is the newer such card can be used with?

Kenji

From Axel.Belinfante@cs.utwente.nl Wed Sep 22 19:43:13 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] plan9ports rio patch
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:59:36 -0400."
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Status:   

> the main thing i have a lot of is 9terms, and i usually
> use awd to set their labels to the current directory.

Since I found it useful to see on what machine a (9 x)^term
is logged in to (in unix, not all machines are equal),
my labels currently show a user@host next to the directory
One disadvantage: the menu gets very wide
(this is less noticable when mozilla is running - also it
 generates sometimes very wide labels).
(also, the scheme of "/dir/path user@home" didn't seem to
 integrate perfectly with win in acme - but I seldomly use win).
 

I hacked 9term to be able to take the directory part of
the labels I use (such that plumbing works).
Because I was unsure about general interest, I think I
did not provide a patch. If there is interest, let me know.

(I also hacked 9term to display a ? cursor when plumbing fails;
 I think I sent the patch for that to Russ)

Axel.

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep 22 19:43:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 02:24:41 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
To: mteege@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

I've never heard of the built-in Gbe.  You're probably better off
just buying an Intel PRO/1000 MT and putting it in.

SATA is supposed to just work, but I believe there's limited
experience with it so far on Plan 9.

The AMD64 shouldn't be a problem, as long you are content to run
it in 32-bit mode for now.  8[cal] don't yet generate the
instruction prefixes (prefaces?) for 64-bit addresses.

I'd also recommend avoiding built-in i8254[17]* controllers;
they aren't quite compatible with the igbe drivers in Plan 9
and need various bug workarounds in the drivers (no surprise,
the word `compatible' has been greatly watered-down by the
hardware vendors).  I may get around to adding those
workarounds, but the reference Linux driver from Intel is
10,000 lines long, so it may not happen immediately.

I've always distrusted hardware built into the motherboard
and the current round of built-in Gbe controllers is doing
nothing to change that distrust.  They're either broken
(the not-quite igbe), Broadcom or Brand X (Marvell).
I'm not sure how breaking the igbe controllers reduces
anybody's costs.

From nigel@9fs.org Wed Sep 22 19:43:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:07:38 +0100
From: Nigel Roles <nigel@9fs.org>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

geoff@collyer.net wrote:

>I've never heard of the built-in Gbe.  You're probably better off
>just buying an Intel PRO/1000 MT and putting it in.
>
The Marvell device is also in the nForce 3 chipset.
There is a reverse engineered driver in Linux which seems fine so
far. I thought the driver name quite amusing - forcedeth.
It's only 2000 lines. I know this sounds a lot, but it looks
straightforward enough, and a lot of the 2000 lines is #defines.

>I've always distrusted hardware built into the motherboard
>and the current round of built-in Gbe controllers is doing
>nothing to change that distrust.  They're either broken
>(the not-quite igbe), Broadcom or Brand X (Marvell).
>I'm not sure how breaking the igbe controllers reduces
>anybody's costs.
>
>  
>
Well, if you want 1Gb out of your 1Gb ethernet chip, then
plugging into the PCI bus is a non starter. PCI is just not very
fast. We have tried a Tyan tomcat with opteron 248 + 2 broadcom
on PCI, and it maxes out at 800mbps and 100% CPU! Some of
that is the Broadcom chip's fault, but the rest is the fact that the
bus is full. PCI is only just over a Gbit when bursting.

You need the Gbe connected either to a better bus (e.g. PCI-X) or
the CPU side of the PCI bridge. This can be achieved either by
embedding in the chipset (e.g. nForce3, KT800PRO), or by having
an alternate ethernet specific bus (Intel CSA).

PCI-X is expensive. The sockets are long, and there's no space
on the motherboards. You only get it on two uniprocessor boards
that I know of (SuperMicro and a very new Gigabyte one), otherwise
it has to be dual processor or more. This doubles the cost of the
motherboard from 100 to 200 quid.

That's how it reduces costs.

From geoff@collyer.net Wed Sep 22 19:43:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:18:52 -0700
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Status:   

Thanks for the explanation, Nigel.

I can see now why the motherboard makers want to include a CSA
version of the igbe, I just don't see why they felt the
need to break the CSA version of the igbe in the process.
I guess it's part of this crazy business of making the
ether drivers micromanage the configuration of the PHYs
and EEPROMs and other irrelevant rubbish that the hardware
ought to be taking care of internally (or at least setting
to sensible default state initially).

From nigel@9fs.org Wed Sep 22 20:23:15 2004
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

geoff@collyer.net wrote:

>Thanks for the explanation, Nigel.
>
>I can see now why the motherboard makers want to include a CSA
>version of the igbe, I just don't see why they felt the
>need to break the CSA version of the igbe in the process.
>I guess it's part of this crazy business of making the
>ether drivers micromanage the configuration of the PHYs
>and EEPROMs and other irrelevant rubbish that the hardware
>ought to be taking care of internally (or at least setting
>to sensible default state initially).
>
>  
>
Actually on closer inspection the marvell chip is external on the Asus
motherboard, and still only connected via (!) PCI.

Only the Marvell PHY is used by Nvidia, and the embedded Gbe is their
own.

The linux driver for the Marvell chip (Yukon aka SysKonnect sk98)
is 35000 lines. Sorry, that's not fair: 43000 including headers. See,
I said 2000 lines for the Nvidia driver was nothing.

Thus the Asus board is an example of how not to connect your
Gbe.

I'm not about to try it, but I suspect getting Plan 9 to work on the
nForce 3 chipsets would not be too bad.

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Wed Sep 22 20:50:46 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:33:39 +0900
From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
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Subject: [9fans] G3 Plan 9 installation.
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Status:   

Hi Everyone,
I'd like to install Plan 9 on a G3 233 MHz iMac. Any pointers on how
to do this? Or any pitfalls that I should be aware of beforehand. Btw,
I'd be happy to just have it as a CPU server. Thanks in advance.

--Vester "Vic" Thacker

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Thu Sep 23 08:23:10 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:14:46 -0600
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>> so i have a tv tuner card at home with the cable plugged in -- i can
>> import it from university and watch tv!  
> 
> What is the name of this TV tuner card?
> Is the newer such card can be used with?
> 
> Kenji

the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c

we've used a phillips card in the past, can't remember the model number...

andrey

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:11 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:19:21 -0400
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Status:   


The 2 AMD64 motherboards we have experience with are
the Tyan S2882 dual Opteron (mentioned before) and recently
an Aopen MK89-L (http://usa.aopen.com/products/mb/MK89-L.htm).
We stuck it in an Antec Aria case to see if it made a decent
desktop machine. We've not investigated it fully, e.g. it has
a Realtek 8110S 1000/100/10 controller on-board and we haven't
got round to making that work (we boot it with PXE via
that controller then switch to using an Intel 82557 card in
one of the PCI slots). Realtek were unresponsive when asked
for programming details but looking at existing *nix drivers
it doesn't look hard to fix up the existing ether8139.c.

As Nigel says, this is low end and if you want 64-bit PCI, etc.
then you have to pay a lot more.

--jim

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:11 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:01:33 -0400
From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

The 2 AMD64 motherboards we have experience with are
the Tyan S2882 dual Opteron (mentioned before) and recently
an Aopen MK89-L (http://usa.aopen.com/products/mb/MK89-L.htm).
We stuck it in an Antec Aria case to see if it made a decent
desktop machine. We've not investigated it fully, e.g. it has
a Realtek 8110S 1000/100/10 controller on-board and we haven't
got round to making that work (we boot it with PXE via
that controller then switch to using an Intel 82557 card in
one of the PCI slots). Realtek were unresponsive when asked
for programming details but looking at existing *nix drivers
it doesn't look hard to fix up the existing ether8139.c.

As Nigel says, this is low end and if you want 64-bit PCI, etc.
then you have to pay a lot more.

--jim

From mteege@gmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:11 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:21:09 +0200
From: Matthias Teege <mteege@gmail.com>
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:19:21 -0400, jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
<jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:

> As Nigel says, this is low end and if you want 64-bit PCI, etc.
> then you have to pay a lot more.

I don't need GB Ethernet and highest possible performance. There are
only three to five users. I need the machine for file service, email,
web service on a slow internet connection and the daily fun with sam
and rio. Because the machine will run some years it would be nice if I
can use "new" hardware. I would like to put 4 disks and a CDROM in the
server so I need a bus where I can put 5 units on. Thats why I'm
looking for SATA.

If GB Ethernet the only problem I can deal with it. The Tyan maybe an
option. If there is another/better ...

Thanks for help
Matthias

From pantosys@gmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:12 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:10:09 -0400
From: Joseph Holsten <pantosys@gmail.com>
To: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

I can't offer advice, but second that request. Anyone with experience
setting up plan 9 on mac hardware, please let us know. Although just
wingin' it without a plan sounds like so much fun...

------------ Nosce Te Ipsum ------------
Joseph A. P. Holsten     pantosys@gmail.com

From ninegrid@gmail.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:53:58 -0500
From: n2 deep <ninegrid@gmail.com>
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Status:   

ignoring the general consensus i will take a crack at it in maya --
might take me a week or two as my schedule is fairly demanding.


On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:57:10 -0700, Jack Johnson <knapjack@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:01:26 +0100, Dave Lukes <davel@anvil.com> wrote:
> > Howsabout flamethrower at bottom right?
> 
> Don't flame the bunny.
> 
> -J
>

From geoff@collyer.net Thu Sep 23 08:23:13 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:57:44 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
To: mteege@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
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Status:   

If you just need to be able to connect more devices, you can
add IDE or SCSI PCI cards.  Companies like Promise make compatible
IDE cards, just don't take their claims of doing RAID in hardware
too seriously; Promise at least do it entirely in their proprietary
drivers.

From vdharani@infernopark.com Thu Sep 23 08:23:14 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:25:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
From: vdharani@infernopark.com
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status:   

jmk,

> The 2 AMD64 motherboards we have experience with are
> the Tyan S2882 dual Opteron (mentioned before) and recently
> an Aopen MK89-L (http://usa.aopen.com/products/mb/MK89-L.htm).
> We stuck it in an Antec Aria case to see if it made a decent
> desktop machine. We've not investigated it fully, e.g. it has
> a Realtek 8110S 1000/100/10 controller on-board and we haven't
> got round to making that work (we boot it with PXE via
> that controller then switch to using an Intel 82557 card in
> one of the PCI slots). Realtek were unresponsive when asked
> for programming details but looking at existing *nix drivers
> it doesn't look hard to fix up the existing ether8139.c.

is it that Opteron processor is run in 32 bit mode? Or is it that 64 bit
is supported in plan9 tools now?

thanks
dharani

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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:18:59 -0700
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
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Status:   

Plan 9's kernel would need some work to ensure that it would
run using 64-bit addresses (64-bit integers are supported),
and 8[cal] would need to generate the 64-bit instruction
prefixes.  My impression is that it's less work than
a port to a brand-new 64-bit processor but not completely
trivial, as the kernel would need at least an inspection
for places where pointers are assumed to be 32 bits wide.

From jason@tommyk.com Thu Sep 23 23:27:08 2004
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:09:39 -0400
From: Jason Gurtz <jason@tommyk.com>
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Status:   

On 9/22/2004 17:53, n2 deep wrote:

> ignoring the general consensus i will take a crack at it in maya --

Hmm, maybe I shouldn't have been so quiet.  I like the ray traced look
myself, if done well.

I'd agree with the sentiment that Tux, overall, is not "ideal"  Maybe it
reminds me of herring too much, which is not a personal favorite.

I'm certainly no artist.  However, I know someone who is, who's favorite
medium is Illustrator and also happens to be a fan of obscure
movies--perhaps even familiar with Plan 9.  I'll pester him :) and see
if he'll take a stab at it.

Cheers,

~Jason

-- 

From newsham@lava.net Fri Sep 24 09:10:31 2004
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:13:42 -1000 (HST)
From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: [9fans] alef post mortem?
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Status:   

When was the decision made to remove alef from use?  What were the
factors?  What worked well about alef, and where was it lacking?
Was there ever a retrospective paper written analyzing what
was learned and why it was abandonned?

Tim N.

From russcox@gmail.com Fri Sep 24 09:10:32 2004
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Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:58:47 -0400
From: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] alef post mortem?
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Status:   

> When was the decision made to remove alef from use?  What were the
> factors?  What worked well about alef, and where was it lacking?
> Was there ever a retrospective paper written analyzing what
> was learned and why it was abandonned?

This has come up on the list before.  Alef was abandoned largely
because no one had time to maintain it.  When Alef and C were both
around, many libraries had to be kept up in two different forms.
Alef was a success in that it made it easy for Rob and others to 
experiment with writing threaded programs in a language with
great notation.  Libthread was written to provide the Alef features
but in C (losing the great notation, sadly, but keeping the concepts
like channels and coroutines executing inside operating system 
processes). 

Rob had just converted everything when I started to do serious
Plan 9 development (libdraw, which thankfully didn't have to be
written in both languages).

Speaking only for myself, I learned that good languages cannot
survive if they can't link directly (or with almost no effort) with C code
written oblivious to the language's existence.  On the other hand,
crappy but C-compatible languages (like C++) or libraries (like pthreads)
will endure forever.  I've spent the last few days fighting the giant
mess that is pthreads, so I'm possibly a little bitter.

As I said, this has come up before.  The archives may well have better
answers from more authoritative sources.

Russ

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:23 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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> the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c

I know, however, it doesn't make sense to me what is the real product name
but not chip name.

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:23 2004
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To: mteege@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Hardware for venti/fossil/cpu server
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:40:40 +0900
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> There are
> only three to five users. I need the machine for file service, email,
> web service on a slow internet connection and the daily fun with sam
> and rio. 

We are using 1GB, 16GHz Pen4 with ide disks for 6 users here (Venti+Fossil).
Our usages are maily for graphics, which means large data will communicate
between file server and terminal.   We don't see any frustration here.
However, I don't know how CPU/AUth server can load more.

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:23 2004
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To: russcox@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] alef post mortem?
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:00:20 +0900
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> Alef was a success in that it made it easy for Rob and others to 
> experiment with writing threaded programs in a language with
> great notation.  

Yeah, alef gave us more clear conceptual writing of such.
I'm sad it was lost from Plan 9 world.

Kenji

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Fri Sep 24 15:09:24 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
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>> the supported cards are listed at the top of /sys/src/9/pc/devtv.c
> 
> I know, however, it doesn't make sense to me what is the real product name
> but not chip name.
> 
> Kenji


pcidatabase.com lists the following names corresponding to the first
DID/VID pairs:

Brooktree Corporation
ISAIAS NUNES
BRASIL
800-2-BT-APPS

Vendor Id: 0x109E
Short Name: Brooktree
Contact:
Web Site: http://www.brooktree.com

Device ID: 0x0350
Chip Number:    BT878
Chip Description:       TV/PCI with DMA Push


Device ID: 0x036E
Chip Number:    Bt878
Chip Description:       MediaStream Controller
Notes: 

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Fri Sep 24 15:09:24 2004
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From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] alef post mortem?
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for the archives, though it's probably in the alef bundle on sources:

     http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/winterbottom93alef.html

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:30 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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Status: RO

> Today, I got a real USB audio processor made by real audio
> maker in Jpan, which is SE-U55X by Onkyo.   

I've been enjoying this USB audio device, and sadly I've been using
external CD Player for this connected to digital input of Onkyo's
USB audio device.   It's not so convenient, because I cannot use
Russ's acd on acme.   I solved this today.

My DVD/CDROM drive has digital output (S/PDIF), and then, I managed
to convert it to optical digital output, because Onkyo's USB audio device
has no coaxial digital input connector.   Now, I'm enjoying Russ's acd
with internal DVD/CDROM drive, and external USB audio device!

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:30 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating a Plan 9 exhibit for an Expo.
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:24:39 +0900
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Status:   

Thank you very much, Andrey.

I'll try it soon for my home Plan 9 system.

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:30 2004
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From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
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Status:   

> My DVD/CDROM drive has digital output (S/PDIF), and then, I managed
> to convert it to optical digital output, because Onkyo's USB audio device
> has no coaxial digital input connector.   

I forgot one thing to mention.
I don't want to connect the analog output from the internal DVD/CDROM
drive to USB audio device.   I dislike noisy analog interface in such conditions.

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:32 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
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Status:   

> I don't want to connect the analog output from the internal DVD/CDROM
> drive to USB audio device.   I dislike noisy analog interface in such c=
onditions.

Hm, I'm enjoying Mahler' Symphony by Tennstedt + London Phil.   Yes, we c=
an=20
enjoy it by this system, ie., internal CDROM + optical connection to exte=
rnal=20
USB audio + acd.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

From martin_ml@parvat.com Fri Sep 24 15:09:34 2004
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:54:40 +0530
From: Martin C.Atkins <martin_ml@parvat.com>
To: Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] alef post mortem?
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:58:47 -0400 Russ Cox <russcox@gmail.com> wrote:
>..
> Speaking only for myself, I learned that good languages cannot
> survive if they can't link directly (or with almost no effort) with C code
> written oblivious to the language's existence.  On the other hand,

Good observation - this is (one reason!) why Java is not a "good language" :-)

Martin

-- 
Martin C. Atkins			martin_ml@parvat.com
Parvat Infotech Private Limited		http://www.parvat.com{/,/martin}

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Fri Sep 24 15:09:35 2004
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From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 14:39:05 +0900
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> Good observation - this is (one reason!) why Java is not a "good langua=
ge" :-)

I'm hearing many times around me, FORTRAN is best, I don't use C.=E2=98=BA

Kenji

From esoriano@lsub.org Fri Sep 24 22:51:31 2004
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From: Enrique Soriano <esoriano@lsub.org>
Subject: Re: [9fans] G3 Plan 9 installation.
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 10:55:04 +0200
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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> I'd like to install Plan 9 on a G3 233 MHz iMac. Any pointers on how
> to do this? Or any pitfalls that I should be aware of beforehand. Btw,
> I'd be happy to just have it as a CPU server. Thanks in advance.

I'm using Plan9 on VirtualPC 6.0 (x86 virtual machine for PPC)
in a Powerbook G4, and it is  terribly slow.

VirtualPC 7.0 has been released, but I haven't used it yet.

I have never tried to use the Plan 9 PPC port, I don't know if
this port works in up-to-date macs.

Regards,
Q.

From newsham@lava.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:44 2004
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From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
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I know that people experiment with plan 9 for grid computing,
since the operating system is well suited for it.  I was wondering
if it is used for actual high performance work?

Do people use the plan 9 compilers?  It doesn't seem like the p9 compilers
are suited for high performance number crunching (not that I think they
are bad compilers).  Have people ported optimizing compilers?  If
so, which ones, and are they available?

Does the operating system have any support for SSE in the 386 port?

On a slightly unrelated note, does 8c make any attempts to generate
code that is reasonable for the pentium-4?  For example, 16-byte aligning
control flow targets?

Tim N.

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep 25 20:51:44 2004
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Tim Newsham wrote:

> Do people use the plan 9 compilers?  It doesn't seem like the p9 compilers
> are suited for high performance number crunching (not that I think they
> are bad compilers).  

And you know this ... how?

Although it would surprise me to find that 8c is as good as the Intel 
compilers. 

ron

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Status:   

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:16:23 -1000 (HST), Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net> wrote:
> I know that people experiment with plan 9 for grid computing,
> since the operating system is well suited for it.  I was wondering
> if it is used for actual high performance work?

We may end up looking at that a little later this year - at least on
ppc64 power4-type systems.

> 
> Do people use the plan 9 compilers?  It doesn't seem like the p9 compilers
> are suited for high performance number crunching (not that I think they
> are bad compilers).  
>

It all depends on what you want to do.  We were trying to
hand-schedule some HPC code and the gcc compilers (and xlc compilers)
with their gratuitous cleverness completely screwed up our
hand-scheduling.  If you really know what you are doing, simple
compilers are your friend.

> Have people ported optimizing compilers?  If
> so, which ones, and are they available?

Hogan's GCC port might be something to look at (not that I consider
GCC to be an optimal compiler - but it'll have a different set of
optimizations than the Plan 9 compiler and might support stuff like
SSE).

    -eric

From christian.grothaus@gmail.com Sat Sep 25 20:51:45 2004
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> Do people use the plan 9 compilers?  It doesn't seem like the p9 compilers
> are suited for high performance number crunching (not that I think they
> are bad compilers).  Have people ported optimizing compilers?  If
> so, which ones, and are they available?

I use them for  "number crunching" (in my case constructive
enumeration of graphs). The 8c compiler does some optimization,
even though it has no '-O' flag. I found that on x86, the speed is
comparable to that of 'gcc -O2'. The performance gain
with 'gcc -O[34]' is minimal in my case.

The compilation speed of 8c is unbeaten.

Christian

From rog@vitanuova.com Sat Sep 25 20:51:45 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:47:05 +0100
From: rog@vitanuova.com
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it does depend a lot what task you're trying to compute.
in my recent experience, it's not unusual for an algorithm
to be available in binary-only format for a particular platform,
in which case a plan9-only solution would not be sufficient.

that's an advantage inferno has, i guess - it's straightforward to execute
the same binaries as everyone else, while still taking advantage
of the advantages of 9p2000/styx and a sane programming environment
for the actual grid infrastructure.

From newsham@lava.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:45 2004
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From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
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> > Do people use the plan 9 compilers?  It doesn't seem like the p9 compilers
> > are suited for high performance number crunching (not that I think they
> > are bad compilers).
>
> And you know this ... how?

I don't, entirely.  I'm partially asking about the quality of
the compiler code (perhaps indirectly).

The compiler implementation paper mentioned that the compilers emit
"medium quality" code. I assume that they were targetted towards their
purpose -- system code.  Because of these factors, I assume (and that is
all it is, an assumption) that optimizations that would be important for
numerical computation but not very important for system programming didn't
receive much attention.  Things like blocking, loop swapping, instruction
reordering, cache hints, combining operations into SIMD instructions, etc.
Is this not the case?

I'm not trying to imply that plan 9 is not a good system, or that
the compilers are poorly written.  I'm just trying to learn more
about the system.

> ron

Tim N.

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Sat Sep 25 20:51:45 2004
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On Fri Sep 24 15:17:09 EDT 2004, newsham@lava.net wrote:
> ...
> Does the operating system have any support for SSE in the 386 port?
> 
> On a slightly unrelated note, does 8c make any attempts to generate
> code that is reasonable for the pentium-4?  For example, 16-byte aligning
> control flow targets?
> 
> Tim N.

We have versions of 8a and 8l which have MMX/SSE support but they are not
installed because there is probably a compatibility issue with old object files.

No, there are no optimisations for the P4 (or PIII, PII, Pentium Pro, Pentium
or 486).

--jim

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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Tim Newsham wrote:

> > And you know this ... how?
> 
> I don't, entirely.  I'm partially asking about the quality of
> the compiler code (perhaps indirectly).

Ah. You really need to take compiler performance app-by-app. We've found 
on some codes that gcc does better than Intel 7.0 (!). It's just very hard 
to draw general conclusions about how well code produced by a given 
compiler will run.

ron

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but these are just so damn cool ... 17 patents I am told.

http://www.rotys.com/

I have one on a machine here and they're quiet too.

ron

From geoff@collyer.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:46 2004
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Ken's description of the Plan 9 compilers, /sys/doc/compiler.ms,
describes in some detail how code is generated, and how the
work is split between compiler and loader (the assembler is
not involved in compilation).

From newsham@lava.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:46 2004
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:39:46 -1000 (HST)
From: Tim Newsham <newsham@lava.net>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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> We have versions of 8a and 8l which have MMX/SSE support but they are
> not installed because there is probably a compatibility issue with old
> object files.

For MMX, the p9 kernel doesnt need to do anything special, but the kernel
has to enable SSE and provide storage for the extra registers during
context switches, doesn't it?  Is this in the kernel?

> --jim

Tim N.

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Sat Sep 25 20:51:47 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:13:38 -0600
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> I know that people experiment with plan 9 for grid computing,
> since the operating system is well suited for it.  I was wondering
> if it is used for actual high performance work?
> 

It is a common misconception that Grid Computing == HPC, This is not
the case by a _very_ long shot.  The problems Grid people are trying
to solve are of a much more general distributed nature -- how to get
computer A to utilize services available on computer B.

Plan 9's distributed design is what makes it so much better as a
platform than any grid middleware based on legacy UNIX and UNIX-like
OS's.  Inferno solves the same problem somewhat differently, but it
gives you the ability to run on those legacy systems, which is the
hurdle Plan 9 seems to run most often against.

What you're looking for is an answer to the question 'how does Plan 9
do on clusters?'.  Well, it hasn't been tested thoroughly on sizes
which most HPC people would find usable (the number of nodes Ron
frequently mentions) and the fact that 8c consistently generates
slower code than gcc by about 20% isn't much help either.  Apocryphal
evidence suggests that it has been tried on 200+ CPUs on Tera systems,
perhaps others may elaborate on the results from that exercise.  

The benefits you get from Plan 9 on the system administration side may
be compelling for some.

andrey

From jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Sat Sep 25 20:51:47 2004
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:14:42 -0400
From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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On Fri Sep 24 18:07:47 EDT 2004, newsham@lava.net wrote:
> > We have versions of 8a and 8l which have MMX/SSE support but they are
> > not installed because there is probably a compatibility issue with old
> > object files.
> 
> For MMX, the p9 kernel doesnt need to do anything special, but the kernel
> has to enable SSE and provide storage for the extra registers during
> context switches, doesn't it?  Is this in the kernel?
> 
> > --jim
> 
> Tim N.

It's not in the distributed kernel, but that's where it needs to be, yes.

--jim

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Sat Sep 25 20:51:47 2004
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To: christian.grothaus@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:14:51 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> The 8c compiler does some optimization,
> even though it has no '-O' flag. 

it has a -N flag, which disables optimization :)

the paper mentioned by Geoff describes all this.

From rminnich@lanl.gov Sat Sep 25 20:51:47 2004
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From: "Ronald G. Minnich" <rminnich@lanl.gov>
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, andrey mirtchovski wrote:
> The benefits you get from Plan 9 on the system administration side may
> be compelling for some.

yes but ... Plan 9 is still harder to admin than the linuxbios/bproc 
clusters we build here. It's way better than most cluster software systems 
that run on  Linux, but it's not the best you can get.

ron

From geoff@collyer.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:48 2004
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:11:10 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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Maybe so, but aren't we arguing about values epsilon here?
(i.e., Plan 9 takes very little effort to administer, so
going from very little to very very little may not matter
much.)

From boyd@insultant.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:48 2004
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From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
References: <6bb9e88ad7834fe55fbacaaa8f68c706@plan9.ucalgary.ca><4149C6E6.1020304@anvil.com><6e35c062040916155773c7f658@mail.gmail.com><d97d2e9040922145379f32649@mail.gmail.com><4152CB13.1050902@tommyk.com><Pine.BSI.4.58.0409231010150.23430@malasada.lava.net><Pine.LNX.4.60.0409231912210.20497@fbsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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From: "Tim Newsham" <newsham@lava.net>
> 
> Do people use the plan 9 compilers?

no, we code in the instructions with the console switches.

dsw

From boyd@insultant.net Sat Sep 25 20:51:48 2004
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From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
To: "Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs" <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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Status:   

> Ken's description of the Plan 9 compilers, /sys/doc/compiler.ms,
> describes in some detail how code is generated, and how the
> work is split between compiler and loader (the assembler is
> not involved in compilation).

exactly.  what a brilliant piece of work.

From brucee@chunder.com Sat Sep 25 20:51:50 2004
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Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:56:47 +1000
From: Bruce Ellis <brucee@chunder.com>
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To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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Status:   

it's a very nice compiler to deal with.  i added some x86
64 bit optims cause i needed them.  it was entertaining and
educational.  and then i got obsessed a bit and did some
multiply/divide optims.  charles merged his stuff, jmk spent
far too much time testing and ... well release 2.1.10.2 is
what you get.  only joking, the release is obviously the
mtime on sources.

brucee

boyd, rounin wrote:

>>Ken's description of the Plan 9 compilers, /sys/doc/compiler.ms,
>>describes in some detail how code is generated, and how the
>>work is split between compiler and loader (the assembler is
>>not involved in compilation).
> 
> exactly.  what a brilliant piece of work.

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Sat Sep 25 23:38:23 2004
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From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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Status:   

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004, Bruce Ellis wrote:

> it's a very nice compiler to deal with.  i added some x86
> 64 bit optims cause i needed them.  it was entertaining and

and they shaved 30 percent off the time needed to recompile the entire
OS, just because fossil happens to be vlong-heavy...

thanks :)

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 08:49:47 2004
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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:07:58 +0900
From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
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Subject: [9fans] Creating new documents on KFS, Fossil,
	and Venti implementation and etc...
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Status:   

1.  Does Fossil replace kfs on all Plan 9 computers? Or should Fossil
be used only on file servers, while terminals and cpu servers use kfs?
I find myself asking this question after reading the wiki docs and
reading 9fans.

2.  I know many of the Plan 9 papers are clearly outdated. For
instance,  the Plan 9 from Bell Labs paper
(http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html) doesn't mention Fossil and
Venti, nor how the items are incorporated into the scheme of things. I
can imply their usage, but I don't like to assume.  Also, I've noticed
that a few of the ideas have apparently been deprecated (e.g., the IL
protocol) since the Plan 9 from Bell Labs paper was originally
written.

I'm curious to see if anyone is working on updating any of the Plan 9
papers or are in the process of creating a new work. If not, I'd like
to heavily revise the papers to reflect the current situation vice a
document about Plan 9 one or two editions ago. Since the original
authors of the papers are greatly respected and admired, I imagine
revising their work might not sit well with some folks.

Would anyone be interested in creating a Plan 9 documentation group? I
know several folks have been doing little by little on the side and I
applaud their efforts. But is anyone interested in starting a
documentation project? This might lead to greater colaboration and
lead to economy of effort. Let the programmers write code and the rest
of us write or update the docs.   Comments?

Sincerely,
Vester "Vic" Thacker

From bmaroshe@itcollege.ee Mon Sep 27 08:49:48 2004
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Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 10:50:21 +0300 (EEST)
From: Boris Maryshev <bmaroshe@itcollege.ee>
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	implementation and etc...
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Status:   



On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Vester Thacker wrote:

> 1.  Does Fossil replace kfs on all Plan 9 computers? Or should Fossil
> be used only on file servers, while terminals and cpu servers use kfs?
Wiki says that you should use fossil on cpu servers: "If you have 
installed your system with a fossil file system (as you should have)", 
probably it doesn't matter much for terminals...

> Would anyone be interested in creating a Plan 9 documentation group? I
> know several folks have been doing little by little on the side and I
> applaud their efforts. But is anyone interested in starting a
> documentation project? This might lead to greater colaboration and
> lead to economy of effort. Let the programmers write code and the rest
> of us write or update the docs.   Comments?
I think Wiki is the best place for it.

>
> Sincerely,
> Vester "Vic" Thacker
>
Boris Maryshev

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Mon Sep 27 08:49:48 2004
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To: vester.thacker@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating new documents on KFS, Fossil,
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:02:29 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   

> 2.  I know many of the Plan 9 papers are clearly outdated 

the problem you're going to run into is, strictly academically
speaking, that you won't be able to modify any of the documentation
without publishing the modifications.  if you want to have an
up-to-date venti description you should publish an up-to-date venti
paper.

publishing is much more difficult than writing man pages, so it's not
a surprise that you see a fossil paper still lingering in the
documentation corners without having an official release with a
conference-backed citation, just look at
http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/fossil.ps

two paths lead to a solution to this problem.  either write
documentation accessible to anyone everywhere (i.e.  man pages) or
leave others to ponder on implementation solutions through the papers.
the second one has an obvious drawback -- on a frequently used system
it won't matter how much you change the papers, the implementation is
always going to be one step ahead.

andrey

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 08:49:48 2004
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> Wiki says that you should use fossil on cpu servers: "If you have
> installed your system with a fossil file system (as you should have)",
> probably it doesn't matter much for terminals...

Hmm. KFS still works as a cpu server. When we made the leap to fossil,
maybe we should have had a revision change. There appears to be three
4th editions. One where I can do everything with KFS, one where I can
use both, and one where I can do everything with Fossil.


> I think Wiki is the best place for it.
I concur. I suppose that I am interested in a concerted effort vice hodge podge.

From geoff@collyer.net Mon Sep 27 08:49:49 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating new documents on KFS, Fossil,
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Status:   

There is a third possibility: the person who updates the code updates
the corresponding paper, if any.  This seems to be part of 1127's
tradition that the person who writes the code writes the
documentation.  It makes sense, the programmer knows better than
anyone the details of the program.  Having someone else do it can
lead, in the extreme, to such hilarious fiction as the HISTORY
sections of the BSD manual pages.

To take a timely example, I've just made /sys/src/fs use 64-bit
integers internally and on disk to hold metadata (e.g., file offsets,
block numbers, sizes, made file name components longer, made it
possible to compile the same source to get a kernel that is precisely
compatible with current on-disk file systems, upgraded the IDE code
(it now uses DMA and RWM), and fixed it and the boot code to cope with
faster than 2=E2=81=B3=E2=81=B1Hz Pentium IVs (and some other lesser fixe=
s).  It was
annoying and embarrassing that one couldn't create a tar archive, even
in an `other' file system, larger than 2GB.  These changes are almost
entirely internal, so I think that fs(8) and fsconfig(8) are still
correct, but I have updated /sys/doc/fs to reflect the changes in
implementation (and fix a few obvious formatting errors).  Some
sections are unchanged, other needed changes to an astonishing number
of details.  (I will be feeding the changes back to jmk.)

Note that I'm not opposed to fossil (nor venti) but I do like
automatic backup to optical jukeboxes, and there are tricky
bootstrapping issues of how to recover a combined venti/fossil server
if fossil damages its write buffer.  I should probably beat on fossil
and see how robust it is these days.

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 08:49:50 2004
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Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 2nd edition acquisition
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Status:   

How does one go about acquiring a copy of Plan 9 2nd edition?
Sorry for all the posts, it's a cat-in-the-hat kind of day today.
--Vester

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 08:49:51 2004
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Subject: [9fans] Best option for a Plan 9 gateway.
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What is the best option for building a Plan 9 gateway? Does a Plan 9
gateway machine need to be an authentication server? Or can any server
be a gateway as long as it has 2 NICs? I'm curious to how others have
solved the problem. Thanks in advance.

--Vester

From vdharani@infernopark.com Mon Sep 27 08:49:51 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Best option for a Plan 9 gateway.
From: vdharani@infernopark.com
To: "Vester Thacker" <vester.thacker@gmail.com>,
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> What is the best option for building a Plan 9 gateway? Does a Plan 9
> gateway machine need to be an authentication server? Or can any server
> be a gateway as long as it has 2 NICs? I'm curious to how others have
> solved the problem. Thanks in advance.

gateway machine need not be an auth server. also, in principle, even one
NIC should be enough (in which case, it is an one-armed router) and i
think plan 9 will also work that way.

thanks
dharani

From g.pavelcak@comcast.net Mon Sep 27 08:49:54 2004
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OK, so it's not exactly a Plan 9 post, but I blame you guys for
adding this! =E2=98=BA

I've been staring at level 36 all day and haven't been able to
find the solution to this particular layout on google.

Any pointers greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Greg

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Mon Sep 27 11:46:05 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Creating new documents on KFS, Fossil,
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:08:17 +0900
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> There is a third possibility: the person who updates the code updates
> the corresponding paper, if any.  This seems to be part of 1127's
> tradition that the person who writes the code writes the
> documentation.  

I suppose this tradition can not be live long anymore bvecause of
dispersion of people, and they have their own job other than Plan 9 
now.

The paper is paper, which makes us the things clearer than reading
so-called users manual.   However, it'd be better if we have users
anual with papers for beginners.   I'm not a person who can do it,
so, I'd be very happy if someone could use their time for that purpose.
If we have such, it's more easy to tell someone "Why you don't try
Plan 9?"

By the way, your updates to /sys/src/fs is very interesting to me.
All the sources are in sources?

> I should probably beat on fossil
> and see how robust it is these days.

Quite robust these days!

Kenji

From geoff@collyer.net Mon Sep 27 21:11:06 2004
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Status: RO

My changes aren't yet on sources but I'll be giving them
back to jmk for distribution.

From BHuntsman@mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon Sep 27 21:11:06 2004
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From: Ben Huntsman <BHuntsman@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] G3 Plan 9 installation.
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Status: RO

It's my understanding that the PPC port was designed for Bell Labs custom =
systems that just happened to use the PPC CPU.  I doubt you could get it =
to run on the mac unless you wrote drivers for apple-specific hardware...

For starters, though, Command-Option-O-F at startup will drop your =
new-world (current mac PPC systems) macintosh into Open Firmware.  From =
there you can specify a different boot file from the standard OS X...  You =
can also poke around at your PCI devices

Good luck!

-Ben=20

>>> Enrique Soriano<esoriano@lsub.org> 9/24/2004 1:55:04 AM >>>
> I'd like to install Plan 9 on a G3 233 MHz iMac. Any pointers on how
> to do this? Or any pitfalls that I should be aware of beforehand. Btw,
> I'd be happy to just have it as a CPU server. Thanks in advance.

I'm using Plan9 on VirtualPC 6.0 (x86 virtual machine for PPC)
in a Powerbook G4, and it is  terribly slow.

VirtualPC 7.0 has been released, but I haven't used it yet.

I have never tried to use the Plan 9 PPC port, I don't know if
this port works in up-to-date macs.

Regards,
Q.


From cespedes@gmail.com Mon Sep 27 21:11:09 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:40:23 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Juan_C=E9spedes?= <cespedes@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Help Sokoban Level 36
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Status:   

My humble solution (not optimized in any way):

rururrdrrurdlllulldrddrdllrrrrdddlldlullluuuuddddrrrrrruuullluuulldlll
luldrdlllldluudrrrrrurrrrurrdddllrrrrrdddlllllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrd
lllullddrulurdrudrrrurrrddrrrrrrurrdlllllllrrrrrdddlllllluuuudrrruuull
dlllluldrdlllullddrulurdrrrrrurrdddddrrruuddrrruuulllllrrdddllluuuudrr
ruuulldlllluldrdlllrrrddlllluuduudrrrrrurrrurrrrrurrdlllluldddrdlllrrd
ddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdlllrrrddlllluurrrrddruldlddrrurldlluuruuur
rrddrrrdddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdlllldlurrrrrdrulddlddrrurruuuulllu
ldrdllllrrrrddlddrruuuudddrruuuullluldrdlllrrrrurrrurrrrrrddrdlllllllr
rdddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdll

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:11:16 -0400, Greg Pavelcak
<g.pavelcak@comcast.net> wrote:
> OK, so it's not exactly a Plan 9 post, but I blame you guys for
> adding this! =E2=98=BA
>=20
> I've been staring at level 36 all day and haven't been able to
> find the solution to this particular layout on google.
>=20
> Any pointers greatly appreciated.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Greg
>

From g.pavelcak@comcast.net Mon Sep 27 21:11:09 2004
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To: cespedes@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Help Sokoban Level 36
From: Greg Pavelcak <g.pavelcak@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:59:26 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-azrjvxffyasgxnufkuakswdwpa
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Thanks. It seems so easy once you see it. The whole thing, of course
is the first dozen or so moves=E2=80=94getting those first two marbles
adjusted. In all my attempts, I never tried anything like that.

Greg

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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Juan_C=E9spedes?= <cespedes@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] Help Sokoban Level 36
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My humble solution (not optimized in any way):

rururrdrrurdlllulldrddrdllrrrrdddlldlullluuuuddddrrrrrruuullluuulldlll
luldrdlllldluudrrrrrurrrrurrdddllrrrrrdddlllllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrd
lllullddrulurdrudrrrurrrddrrrrrrurrdlllllllrrrrrdddlllllluuuudrrruuull
dlllluldrdlllullddrulurdrrrrrurrdddddrrruuddrrruuulllllrrdddllluuuudrr
ruuulldlllluldrdlllrrrddlllluuduudrrrrrurrrurrrrrurrdlllluldddrdlllrrd
ddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdlllrrrddlllluurrrrddruldlddrrurldlluuruuur
rrddrrrdddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdlllldlurrrrrdrulddlddrrurruuuulllu
ldrdllllrrrrddlddrruuuudddrruuuullluldrdlllrrrrurrrurrrrrrddrdlllllllr
rdddllluuuudrrruuulldlllluldrdll

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 15:11:16 -0400, Greg Pavelcak
<g.pavelcak@comcast.net> wrote:
> OK, so it's not exactly a Plan 9 post, but I blame you guys for
> adding this! =E2=98=BA
>=20
> I've been staring at level 36 all day and haven't been able to
> find the solution to this particular layout on google.
>=20
> Any pointers greatly appreciated.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> Greg
>
--upas-azrjvxffyasgxnufkuakswdwpa--

From cej@gli.cas.cz Mon Sep 27 21:34:22 2004
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Hello all!

I've bought a ThinkPad T23 with original S3 SuperSavageIXc graphics =
card.
It runs OK in VGA and XGA resolution, but I can't switch to SXGA+ =
[1440*1050*32]

	aux/vga -l 1440x1050x32
	% aux/vga: main: xga@1440x1050x32 not in /lib/vgadb

Should I edit /lib/vgadb, or am I doing something wrong? T23 was =
repeatedly
reported [here] to run in 1440x1050x32 mode on plan9...

Thanks for assistance,
best regards,

++pac.


---
Odchoz=ED zpr=E1va neobsahuje viry.
Zkontrolov=E1no antivirov=FDm syst=E9mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz).
Verze: 6.0.769 / Virov=E1 b=E1ze: 516 - datum vyd=E1n=ED: 24. 9. 2004
=20

From fgergo@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 07:59:35 2004
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Status:   

sxga+ is 1400x1050.

 cheers: gergo

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:12:52 +0200, cej@gli.cas.cz <cej@gli.cas.cz> wrote:
>=20
> Hello all!
>=20
> I've bought a ThinkPad T23 with original S3 SuperSavageIXc graphics card.
> It runs OK in VGA and XGA resolution, but I can't switch to SXGA+ [1440*1=
050*32]
>=20
>        aux/vga -l 1440x1050x32
>        % aux/vga: main: xga@1440x1050x32 not in /lib/vgadb
>=20
> Should I edit /lib/vgadb, or am I doing something wrong? T23 was repeated=
ly
> reported [here] to run in 1440x1050x32 mode on plan9...
>=20
> Thanks for assistance,
> best regards,
>=20
> ++pac.
>=20
> ---
> Odchoz=ED zpr=E1va neobsahuje viry.
> Zkontrolov=E1no antivirov=FDm syst=E9mem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz).
> Verze: 6.0.769 / Virov=E1 b=E1ze: 516 - datum vyd=E1n=ED: 24. 9. 2004
>=20
>

From forsyth@vitanuova.com Tue Sep 28 07:59:37 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] soekris boards
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--upas-bmunxycifjwlpmzsstamlpuwfk
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i've used the 4501.
unlike some `embedded' PC implementations i've used, the BIOS works on serial port,
which was better for me.  the BIOS also seemed to work, which made a change.

it doesn't take much to get plan 9 or inferno running on them.
for plan 9, it looks as though i deleted cga.$O from a copy of mkfile--
possibly cga should be configured explicitly in /sys/src/9/pc config files not mkfile--
removed all the graphics devices from pcsoe (compared to pccpu),
added
	void screeninit(void){}
to the port section, and changed the device configuration.
then as usual something intervened and i didn't do as much with it as i intended.

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anyone had any experience with these things?

http://www.soekris.com/

brucee
--upas-bmunxycifjwlpmzsstamlpuwfk
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dev
	root
	cons
	arch
	pnp		pci
	env
	pipe
	proc
	mnt
	srv
	dup
	rtc
	ssl
	tls
	bridge		log
	sdp		thwack unthwack
	cap
	kprof

	ether		netif
	ip		arp chandial ip ipv6 ipaux iproute netlog nullmedium pktmedium ptclbsum386 inferno

	sd

	uart
	pccard
	i82365		cis	

link
	devpccard
	devi82365
	ether83815	pci
	etherwavelan	wavelan devi82365 cis
	ethermedium
	loopbackmedium
	netdevmedium

misc

	uarti8250

	sdata		pci sdscsi

ip
	il
	tcp
	udp
	ipifc
	icmp
	icmp6
	gre
	ipmux
	esp
	rudp

port
	int cpuserver = 1;
	void screeninit(void){}

boot cpu
	il
	tcp

bootdir
	bootpcsoe.out boot
	/386/bin/ip/ipconfig ipconfig
	/386/bin/auth/factotum
--upas-bmunxycifjwlpmzsstamlpuwfk--

From rminnich@lanl.gov Tue Sep 28 07:59:38 2004
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On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 geoff@collyer.net wrote:

> Maybe so, but aren't we arguing about values epsilon here?
> (i.e., Plan 9 takes very little effort to administer, so
> going from very little to very very little may not matter
> much.)


no, because a small number times 1500 can start to look bigger than you 
like.

ron

From geoff@collyer.net Tue Sep 28 07:59:40 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:45:49 -0700
From: geoff@collyer.net
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
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Status:   

For many administrative things, you only have to do them
once per Plan 9 site (or cluster), not per machine.  Is there
something specific you're thinking of that needs doing
for each machine?

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Sep 28 07:59:40 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:03:09 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Subject: [9fans] scat and latin1.6
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Status:   

scat uses the following font when plotting objects:

	/lib/font/bit/lucida/unicode.6.font

unicode.6.font defines 0x0 to 0xff to use the file named 'latin1.6'
which doesn't exist in /lib/font/bit/lucida.  there are two other
files, namely latin1.6.0 and latin1.6.1 with which scat works fine.

is there a bug in the .font file or has anything else changed?  was
cachechars ever supposed to find out the depth of the font image file
itself?  scat used to work a couple of years ago but i have no dumps
from that time so i have no idea whether the font was removed at some
point.

by the way, exporting "The Digitized Sky Survey, 102 CD-ROMs" as a
(grid) service on sources could be a good idea =E2=98=BA

andrey

From boyd@insultant.net Tue Sep 28 07:59:40 2004
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From: "boyd, rounin" <boyd@insultant.net>
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Subject: Re: [9fans] grid computing -- high performance?
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:59:37 +0200
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Status:   

> Is there something specific you're thinking of that needs doing
> for each machine?

i think i agree with ron here.  two or three machines is sorta fun,
but when it gets above 50 it gets tricky and beyond that ...

lunix is unmanageable once you get to 50 machines, unless you
a) like a total debacle or b) have spent a long time beating
them into shape.

lunix is unmanageable.  the decentralisation that occurred
during the '80s was a colossal failure, but those boys
haven't learnt that yet.

plan 9 fixed all this by centralising the compute/disk resources
and moving back to the 'terminal model' [no disk, no fan] and
gluing it all together with a simple, connection based, coherent,
f/s protocol.

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:59:31 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:52:58 +0000
From: Vester Thacker <vester.thacker@gmail.com>
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:52:33 +0100, Steve Simon <steve@quintile.net> wrote:
>
> I got a copy on ebay (though I have never seen another one).
> maybe somone will offer you one "off list".

Heh, if I could only be that lucky. :-)   

--Vester

From robpike@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:59:34 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:40:44 -0700
From: Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] scat and latin1.6
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I believe cachechars searches for the best match of bit depth.
I think all is well. You should see files latin1.6.0 and latin1.6.1.
If they're missing, replace them.

-rob

From rvs@sun.com Tue Sep 28 19:59:34 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:46:57 -0700
From: Roman Shaposhnick <rvs@sun.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
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Subject: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
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I have a deja vu feeling that this might have been asked here before.
But since the mighty google disagrees here it goes: why does bind
have a restriction that old has be existent ? Basically why can't
I do:

   $ bind /some-file /new-name-for-some-file ?

where there's no /new-name-for-some-file before the call ?

Thanks,
Roman.

From robpike@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:59:34 2004
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Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:51:54 -0700
From: Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
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Status: RO

Because bind and mount are implemented by a simple substitution.
When a walk hits a file that has been bound to, the fid is dropped
and then replaced by a clone of the fid of the result of the bind.
To have a fid, one needs a file, hence the fid must exist.

There's nothing stopping a service from creating bind destinations
on demand, and I think this has even been done in a special
device(memory is vague), but fundamentally, bind needs a file to
bind to.

-rob


On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:46:57 -0700, Roman Shaposhnick <rvs@sun.com> wrote:
> I have a deja vu feeling that this might have been asked here before.
> But since the mighty google disagrees here it goes: why does bind
> have a restriction that old has be existent ? Basically why can't
> I do:
> 
>    $ bind /some-file /new-name-for-some-file ?
> 
> where there's no /new-name-for-some-file before the call ?
> 
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Tue Sep 28 19:59:35 2004
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To: robpike@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] scat and latin1.6
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:48:28 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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> I believe cachechars searches for the best match of bit depth.
> I think all is well. You should see files latin1.6.0 and latin1.6.1.
> If they're missing, replace them.
>=20
> -rob

latin1.6.0 and latin1.6.1 are there, but scat refuses to render text
with them:

	plan9% scat
	2004  9 28 01:45:16 GMT 18h37m28s +51=C2=B042'00" +114=C2=B007'47" 1140
	uranus
	uranus	22h21m50.0s -11=C2=B004'33.0" 123.97=C2=B0 10.87=C2=B0 00'04.3"
	plot
	stringwidth: bad character set for rune 0x0000 in /lib/font/bit/lucida/u=
nicode.6.font
	stringwidth: bad character set for rune 0x0000 in /lib/font/bit/lucida/u=
nicode.6.font

0x0000-0x00ff is /lib/font/bit/lucida/latin1.6 in unicode.6.font...

andrey

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 28 19:59:42 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] scat and latin1.6
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:38:01 +0900
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> latin1.6.0 and latin1.6.1 are there, but scat refuses to render text
> with them:
>=20
> 	plan9% scat
> 	2004  9 28 01:45:16 GMT 18h37m28s +51=C2=B042'00" +114=C2=B007'47" 114=
0
> 	uranus
> 	uranus	22h21m50.0s -11=C2=B004'33.0" 123.97=C2=B0 10.87=C2=B0 00'04.3"
> 	plot
> 	stringwidth: bad character set for rune 0x0000 in /lib/font/bit/lucida=
/unicode.6.font
> 	stringwidth: bad character set for rune 0x0000 in /lib/font/bit/lucida=
/unicode.6.font

Sorry, from outside.

I tried this, and got success, I mean got graphic plot without problem he=
re.

I replaced latin1.6.1 by latin.1.6.1

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 28 19:59:42 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] scat and latin1.6
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> I replaced latin1.6.1 by latin.1.6.1

I replaced latin.1.6.0 by latin1.6.1, sorry.

Kenji

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 28 19:59:44 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:37:42 +0900
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> enjoy it by this system, ie., internal CDROM + optical connection to ex=
ternal=20
> USB audio + acd.=E2=98=BA

I've heard today fro Onkyo that a new model, replacing SE-U55X, was relea=
sed
recently named as SE-U55GX.

Kenji

From mteege@gmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:59:45 2004
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:50:50 +0159
From: Matthias Teege <mteege@gmail.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:37:42 +0900, Kenji Okamoto
<okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> wrote:

> I've heard today fro Onkyo that a new model, replacing SE-U55X, was released
> recently named as SE-U55GX.

Yes, it looks cool but I can't find a source outside of japan. There
are some hints on .ru websites and I found one note in German (from
may). Looks like Onkyo doesn't sell this device in USA or Europe.

Matthias

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Tue Sep 28 19:59:45 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] strange sound card HCMI-4CH
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:21:03 +0900
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> Yes, it looks cool but I can't find a source outside of japan. There
> are some hints on .ru websites and I found one note in German (from
> may). Looks like Onkyo doesn't sell this device in USA or Europe.

I've heard that the major differences were
(1) support internal AC power supply, a good choice I believe.
(2) USB control chip was changed from KC (Taiwanese) to something
	made in Japan (SANYO, probably).  Hmm, I should have chosen
this new type, if I knew it.

By the way, I'm be sure the sound quality of that device is very high.

Onkyo is a company located in Osaka, hehehe.

Kenji

From forsyth@vitanuova.com Wed Sep 29 08:34:36 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
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mntgen(4), for instance, generates names on demand.

From brantley@coraid.com Wed Sep 29 08:34:37 2004
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Subject: [9fans] 9load didn't like SUSE Linux on the disk
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Seems that 9load doesn't check the partition types before deciding to
doswalk a partition.  I installed SUSE Linux on my disk and couldn't
boot from the plan 9 floppy.  9load panic'ed.  After I tracked
it down to the doswalk, I fixed my problem by just removing the
partition table from the disk drive.  I haven't spent enough time
looking to find where 9load picks the partition that it thinks is a
dos partition.  Anyone know where it does this?

  Brantley

From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep 29 08:34:45 2004
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wasn't John working on this at the labs?  what happened to it?

and no, i'm not referring to the red/orange books.
--
MGRS 31U DQ 52572 12604

From davide+p9@cs.cmu.edu Wed Sep 29 08:34:47 2004
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> http://www.rotys.com/

The splash page looks great, but the web site is
otherwise irritating... I don't see any actual
content, but nonetheless it seems to refresh every
minute or so!

So how can I buy one?  Say, something like
40 x 40 x 10 mm, 6.5 CFM, just the fan?

Dave Eckhardt

From rminnich@lanl.gov Wed Sep 29 08:34:47 2004
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dave Eckhardt wrote:

> So how can I buy one?  Say, something like
> 40 x 40 x 10 mm, 6.5 CFM, just the fan?

small company, just send them a few bucks in an envelope might do it :-)

ron

From senbei@8-0.net Wed Sep 29 08:34:47 2004
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From: raphael rsc <senbei@8-0.net>
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hello, 
I'm new here, so hello :)
I discovered Plan9 recently and found it quite interesting (even if I do not really use it for now).
I was wondering if I could put Plan 9 on an old powerbook 68k ?
thanks
raphael

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From boyd@insultant.net Wed Sep 29 18:31:26 2004
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> I was wondering if I could put Plan 9 on an old powerbook 68k ?

    http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/port.html

From rvs@sun.com Wed Sep 29 18:31:28 2004
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:08:58 -0700
From: Roman Shaposhnick <rvs@sun.com>
To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
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Status:   

On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 02:57:42PM +0100, C H Forsyth wrote:
> mntgen(4), for instance, generates names on demand.
  
  mntgen seems new to me (I could bet it wasn't part of the 
  Plan 9 release 3, but may be I've just overlooked it)

  Anyway, is this how one accomplishes what I was trying 
  to do (bind /existing-file /non-existing-file):

   
     $ mntgen /
     $ bind /existing-file /non-existing-file

  The one thing that troubles me about this approach is that
  all of a sudden any lookup in / starts succeeding.

Thanks,
Roman.

From mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Wed Sep 29 18:31:28 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:23:44 -0600
From: andrey mirtchovski <mirtchov@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>
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Status:   

   
>   mntgen seems new to me (I could bet it wasn't part of the 
>   Plan 9 release 3, but may be I've just overlooked it)
> 

nemo wrote mntgen sometime around the initial 4e...

>   Anyway, is this how one accomplishes what I was trying 
>   to do (bind /existing-file /non-existing-file):

whenever i run into that problem i use ramfs, or i bind /tmp if
i don't care that someone may see the changes to the file.

hth: andrey

From rvs@sun.com Wed Sep 29 18:31:41 2004
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:13:35 -0700
From: Roman Shaposhnick <rvs@sun.com>
To: Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com>,
	Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
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Status:   

On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 05:51:54PM -0700, Rob Pike wrote:
> To have a fid, one needs a file, hence the fid must exist.

  That's the part I'm curious about. Why is that ? For the
  purposes of substituting you still have to maintain the
  information that file X is a 'bind' destination for file Y.
  Sure the lookup is much simpler when you really have Y and
  Z being served somewhere, but wouldn't it be quite simple
  to have a table (with a usual performance hit) that you consult
  when the real walk fails ?

  Or, to put differently, why mntgen is considered a better
  (or cleaner) solution than what I've just described.

Thanks,
Roman.

From nemo@lsub.org Wed Sep 29 18:31:49 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:37:57 +0200
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Status:   

>>   Anyway, is this how one accomplishes what I was trying 
>>   to do (bind /existing-file /non-existing-file):

In Plan B we used to have a prefix table (now it's gone).
There you could say something like

/a/path/I/just/invented -goes-to-> a-file-server

This has the net effect that you can invent paths.
It was not that useful. I mean, you can perfectly do without
inventing files. Sometimes I missed this to patch up CDs, but
that's a different issue.

hth

From vester.thacker@gmail.com Wed Sep 29 18:31:49 2004
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Status:   

There will be a Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group meeting on 16 October 2004.
The meeting will be held from 1300 to 1600 in the Global Scientific
Information and Computing Center, located at the Tokyo Institute of
Technology, O-okayama campus. Everyone is welcome, and there is no fee
to attend.

The "Global Scientific Information and Computing Center" is labeled as
number 4 on the following map:
http://www.titech.ac.jp/access-and-campusmap/e/o-okayamaO.html

The following is a railway map:
http://www.titech.ac.jp/access-and-campusmap/e/access.html

I hope to see you there,

Vester "Vic Thacker

From nemo@lsub.org Wed Sep 29 18:31:49 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
From: "Fco. J. Ballesteros" <nemo@lsub.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:09:16 +0200
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Subject: [9fans] yet another replica program: repl.
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Status:   

Hi,
	I've updated /n/sources/nemo with a new program to
handle replicas that's called repl. I've done so because I needed
to be able to sync peer replicas. It's a simple program and works fast
enough that I included the scan process within the sync script.

The program is actually two different programs: scan and sync.
There is a man page at http://lsub.org/magic/man2html/8/repl

As usual, I've just used this several days with my own home and system :-)
Be careful if you use this. I'll be pushing changes as I find any bug.

hth

From steve@quintile.net Wed Sep 29 18:31:49 2004
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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:12:41 +0100
To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] 9load didn't like SUSE Linux on the disk
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Status:   

Mmm, I didn't take the time to properly understand the code but
it looks like this is what you are after. Why a Linux partition
should mess things up I don't understand.


/sys/src/boot/pc/part.c:148
/* 
 * Fetch the first dos and all plan9 partitions out of the MBR partition table.
 * We return -1 if we did not find a plan9 partition.
 */

-Steve

From steve@quintile.net Thu Sep 30 07:45:16 2004
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From: "Steve Simon" <steve@quintile.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:37:46 +0100
To: senbei@8-0.net, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 on 68k
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Status:   

There are 68k compilers for plan9 and the kernel
has run on 68k machines in the past (2nd edition),
there may be a chance of getting the source
for those kernels released from the labs if you
are lucky.

Having said this no one (to my knowledge) has done a native
port to 68k or PPC macs and the old 68k kernels would require
a fair amount or work to be compatible with release 4 even before
before you started the port to the Mac hardware.

Sorry to be discouraging but running Plan9 on a 68k Mac
would be a lot of work.

(unless somone knows differently...)

-Steve

From lucio@proxima.alt.za Thu Sep 30 07:45:18 2004
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Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:55:36 +0200
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Status:   

It's a RAID controller and looks pretty formidable, if somewhat
old-fashioned.  Has anyone done any work to provide support for it in
Plan 9?

++L

From 9fans@hamnavoe.com Thu Sep 30 07:45:22 2004
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To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] simple questions on bind semantics
From: Richard Miller <9fans@hamnavoe.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:06:00 +0100
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Status:   

> There's nothing stopping a service from creating bind destinations
> on demand, and I think this has even been done in a special
> device

That's mntgen(4).

But if you want to create only one specific bind destination instead
of having them appear on demand, you can use stub(8).

From senbei@8-0.net Thu Sep 30 07:45:22 2004
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From: raphael rsc <senbei@8-0.net>
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thanks a lot for your answers !
i'll have a look and hope i'll manage to do something :)

_____________________________________________________________
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From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep 30 19:26:06 2004
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To: vester.thacker@gmail.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu
Subject: Re: [9fans] Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group meeting -- 16 October
	2004
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:47:11 +0900
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Thanks Vester...

I'm checking my schedule, and I have no plan to visit Tokyo around
that day.   If I want to join the meeting, I have to pay $300 by myself.
Give me more time to consider it.

By the way, how many people will come?

Kenji

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Subject: [9fans] Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group meeting -- 16 October 2004
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There will be a Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group meeting on 16 October 2004.
The meeting will be held from 1300 to 1600 in the Global Scientific
Information and Computing Center, located at the Tokyo Institute of
Technology, O-okayama campus. Everyone is welcome, and there is no fee
to attend.

The "Global Scientific Information and Computing Center" is labeled as
number 4 on the following map:
http://www.titech.ac.jp/access-and-campusmap/e/o-okayamaO.html

The following is a railway map:
http://www.titech.ac.jp/access-and-campusmap/e/access.html

I hope to see you there,

Vester "Vic Thacker
--upas-ocnjyzfrwbzndlukghzflwkgji--

From okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp Thu Sep 30 19:26:06 2004
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Subject: Re: [9fans] Tokyo Inferno/Plan 9 Users Group meeting -- 16 October
From: Kenji Okamoto <okamoto@granite.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp>
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Sorry all, this was personal mail...

Kenji