From cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Fri Apr 9 14:29:43 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Fri, 9 Apr 1993 14:31:51 -0400 Received: from groucho.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.10]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <293780>; Fri, 9 Apr 1993 14:31:40 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Fri, 9 Apr 1993 14:30:19 -0400 To: 9fans Subject: Greetings Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1993 14:29:43 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Apr9.143019edt.2539@groucho.cs.psu.edu> Greetings all. This is to verify your subscription to the plan9-fans list. The charter members (those who signed up on the first day) are (in order) "Scott Schwartz" "Chuck Rendleman" "Michael John Haertel" "Neil Weisenfeld" "Ozan S. Yigit" "Sanjeev Y. Dharap" Eric Krohn "DaviD W. Sanderson" "Dennis Colarelli" Tony Sloane Bob Gibson Chris Siebenmann "Roger Peppe" "Chet Ramey" "Tim Tsai" Noel Hunt Due to rdist and local politics, it takes a day before changes to the list take effect. From cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Sat Apr 10 21:10:19 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Sat, 10 Apr 1993 21:11:57 -0400 Received: from groucho.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.10]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292444>; Sat, 10 Apr 1993 21:12:21 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Sat, 10 Apr 1993 21:10:56 -0400 To: 9fans Subject: who wants to start? Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 21:10:19 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Apr10.211056edt.2579@groucho.cs.psu.edu> It's quiet. Too quiet. Well, how about a straw poll then. How many have plan9 running yet? From cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Sat Apr 10 23:32:45 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Sat, 10 Apr 1993 23:32:44 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292491>; Sat, 10 Apr 1993 23:33:03 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA15310 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for plan9-fans@cs.psu.edu); Sat, 10 Apr 93 20:32:47 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA05997; Sat, 10 Apr 93 20:32:45 PDT Message-Id: <9304110332.AA05997@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans Subject: Re: who wants to start? Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 23:32:45 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu It's working here. I have departed almost totally from the Bell Labs recommended configuration. I'm running a hacked version of the terminal kernel on Sparcs, booting off local disc, using a remote Unix machine running a hacked "u9fs" as the file server. Lots of things don't work yet. I have a TODO list a light-year long. I expect many of my problems would go away if we had the resources to dedicate a CPU server (to run daemons) and a file server. I'm interested in hearing how others are doing... From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Apr 14 20:18:50 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:27:46 -0400 Received: from groucho.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.10]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292656>; Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:22:53 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:19:31 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: mass ack Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 20:18:50 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Apr14.201931edt.2580@groucho.cs.psu.edu> Greetings all. This is a mass acknowledgement to everyone who has signed on to the plan9-fans list to date, now that influx has slowed down a bit. (There are 75 people on the list right now.) One person has suggested that the name of the list be changed to 9fans. There's already an alias for that, in any event. The list is not being archived (that I know of). If someone wants to do it, that would be great. -- Scott From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Apr 22 01:54:29 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:00:40 -0400 Received: from mail.Germany.EU.net ([192.76.144.65]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292473>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 07:34:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199304221032.WP29079@mail.Germany.EU.net> Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net(EUnetD-2.2.5.e) via EUnet id WP29079; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 12:32:52 +0200 Received: from pfm.rmt.sub.org by smurf.sub.org with bsmtp id <49044>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 12:33:18 +0200 Received: from qb by pfm.rmt.sub.org with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0nltLH-0003mtC; Thu, 22 Apr 93 06:56 MESZ Received: by qb # original line (NX5.67c/NeXT-2.0pfmOK) id AA03644; Thu, 22 Apr 93 06:54:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 01:54:29 -0400 From: vhs@qb.rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai) Illegal-Object: Syntax error in Message-Id: value found on smurf.sub.org: Message-Id: <9304220554.AA03644@qb# original line> ^-illegal end of message identification Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: Plan 9 beginner's questions Reply-To: vhs@qb.rhein-main.de Maybe you can answer a few beginner's questions I have: What is the equivalent of 'shutdown', 'halt', 'sync' in Plan9, i.e. how to safely shut the system down What are the equivalents of ^C, ^Q and ^S under 8.5, i.e. how to cancel a process without deleting it's window, and how to stop and resume text output? Any help, even pointers into TFM appreciated. (IRTFM'ed, but not the whole M ;-) Volker --- Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@qb.rhein-main.de) Computer industry: Industry in which the number of units sold of any given product is inversely proportional to its technical excellence. See also: MS-DOS, MS-Windows, PC, X, QWERTY, 80x86, TrueType From psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!orthanc.cs.su.oz.au!matty Thu Apr 22 09:10:42 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!orthanc.cs.su.oz.au!matty Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:14:16 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292489>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:14:55 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 23:14:32 +1000 To: 9fans-owner@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: <19930422231042.24887.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> In-Reply-To: <199304221032.WP29079@mail.Germany.EU.net> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 09:10:42 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Plan 9 beginner's questions To shut down a terminal ctrl-t ctrl-t r. This should be fine if it's diskless. If it isn't - no idea. To cancell a process (delete or numlock on some keyboard) will kill things in a window's process group. This is in the 8.5 manual page. To stop and resume text output: put the window into non-scroll mode and use the page-down/VIEW key (again check the manual pages like 8.5 and keyboard(6)), its altgraph on some keyboard and the arrow keys on others. This will scroll half a page. Output is blocked while it can't be displayed, i.e., while it's off the bottom of the page. Matty. From psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!orthanc.cs.su.oz.au!matty Thu Apr 22 11:33:35 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!orthanc.cs.su.oz.au!matty Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2606>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:49:28 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292707>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:50:07 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Fri, 23 Apr 1993 01:49:55 +1000 To: Plan 9 Mailing List <9fans-owner@cs.psu.edu> Message-ID: <19930423013335.1276.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:33:35 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Plan 9 utilities... Three things for your general edification/amusement: For those interested, there is a program called 9x in ftp.cs.su.oz.au:/matty which provides a remote graphical connection to a Plan 9 machine on an X terminal. The code needs to be cleaned up (please don't look at it too much if you get it -- I will be mortified if you do), and it doesn't support the polysegment primitive as yet, but it's useful if you can get it to work nevertheless. You will need the libXg library from research.att.com (the one with the sam distribution) to build it. Secondly, on the same site in /matty/unicode, there are utf versions of libXg which will, when compiled with sam enable it to edit utf encoded files, i.e, files containing Runes encoded as Plan 9 encodes them using the utf-2 encoding. The libXg and libframe libraries are both needed as well as the font archive. There is also a program 9term which may be used a replacement for xterm and which provides a 8.5 (8 1/2) like window for Unix: editable command line and output, cut/snarf/send, and if you compile with the right libraries, utf facilities. This is fairly stable. It only works on a few systems at present so if you port it please tell me. It's still a beta version but that's probably because I'm lazy and haven't done a last touch up more than anything else. I've not used xterm in any major fashion since last October or so and having the Plan 9 `look and feel' under Unix is a big win (plug, plug!). The current version in the directory is 1.1.1 but 1.2 should be there in the next few days. Matty. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Apr 22 11:33:35 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2610>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:25:54 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <294506>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:24:09 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:21:49 +1000 To: Plan 9 Mailing List <9fans@cs.psu.edu> Message-ID: <19930423013335.1276.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 11:33:35 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Plan 9 utilities... Three things for your general edification/amusement: For those interested, there is a program called 9x in ftp.cs.su.oz.au:/matty which provides a remote graphical connection to a Plan 9 machine on an X terminal. The code needs to be cleaned up (please don't look at it too much if you get it -- I will be mortified if you do), and it doesn't support the polysegment primitive as yet, but it's useful if you can get it to work nevertheless. You will need the libXg library from research.att.com (the one with the sam distribution) to build it. Secondly, on the same site in /matty/unicode, there are utf versions of libXg which will, when compiled with sam enable it to edit utf encoded files, i.e, files containing Runes encoded as Plan 9 encodes them using the utf-2 encoding. The libXg and libframe libraries are both needed as well as the font archive. There is also a program 9term which may be used a replacement for xterm and which provides a 8.5 (8 1/2) like window for Unix: editable command line and output, cut/snarf/send, and if you compile with the right libraries, utf facilities. This is fairly stable. It only works on a few systems at present so if you port it please tell me. It's still a beta version but that's probably because I'm lazy and haven't done a last touch up more than anything else. I've not used xterm in any major fashion since last October or so and having the Plan 9 `look and feel' under Unix is a big win (plug, plug!). The current version in the directory is 1.1.1 but 1.2 should be there in the next few days. Matty. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Apr 22 21:13:40 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2620>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:17:17 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <294484>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:14:00 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA21279 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cs.psu.edu); Thu, 22 Apr 93 18:13:42 -0700 Received: by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA28359; Thu, 22 Apr 93 18:13:40 PDT Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:13:40 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu Message-Id: <9304230113.AA28359@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: Plan 9 beginner's questions I don't know how to shut down a file server or CPU server, but to safely shut down a terminal, type "^T^Tr". The connection to the file server is not cached, so there is no need to sync. The equivalent of ^C is delete. (Long ago, Delete was the standard interrupt character on Unix too, but Berkeley, in their infinite wisdom, decided to switch to ^C.) The equivalent of ^S and ^Q is the scroll/noscroll item on the middle mouse button menu, together with the scrollbar. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Apr 22 22:20:22 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2610>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:23:23 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <294503>; Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:21:22 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:21:02 +1000 To: Plan 9 Mailing List <9fans@cs.psu.edu> Message-ID: <19930423122022.18778.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> In-Reply-To: <199304221032.WP29079@mail.Germany.EU.net> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:20:22 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Plan 9 beginner's questions To shut down a terminal ctrl-t ctrl-t r. This should be fine if it's diskless. If it isn't - no idea. To cancell a process (delete or numlock on some keyboard) will kill things in a window's process group. This is in the 8.5 manual page. To stop and resume text output: put the window into non-scroll mode and use the page-down/VIEW key (again check the manual pages like 8.5 and keyboard(6)), its altgraph on some keyboard and the arrow keys on others. This will scroll half a page. Output is blocked while it can't be displayed, i.e., while it's off the bottom of the page. Matty. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sat Apr 24 13:00:48 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 13:08:49 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <293067>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 13:02:15 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 13:00:48 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Apr24.130215edt.293067@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> In the good old days, copyright notices meant something. The latest instance of their devaluation is Matty's posting in a public place of a number of copyrighted fonts from the Plan 9 distribution (itself a violation of the copyright) without reproducing the notice (which would be our request to anyone who asked to copy them). For those interested in maintaining the principle of letting artists maintain ownership of their work, the fonts Matty distributed should be stored with the following notice: The fonts in this directory are based on fonts Copyright (c) 1985 Bigelow & Holmes Inc. This text is (with a substitution for (c)) the contents of /lib/font/bit/(pelm,lucm)/NOTICE -rob From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sat Apr 24 23:14:37 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:29:59 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <293391>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:28:29 -0400 Received: from minnie.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Sun, 25 Apr 1993 13:28:08 +1000 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:14:37 -0400 From: geoff@minnie.cs.su.OZ.AU (Geoff Langdale) Subject: Dumb, fundamental question. To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Apr24.232829edt.293391@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> Is Plan 9 primarily intended as an operating system to do research on, or into? Many of the postings on comp.os.research which run 'Plan 9 should have interesting feature x' seem to cast (recast?) Plan 9 as a operating system to which exists for the purpose of investigating certain operating system ideas. The impression I have from the Plan 9 literature so far seems to indicate that the emphasis is more on creating a usable system, given certain ideas about operating system design, namespaces and so on. I'm not asking whether Plan 9 is a pure research system or a pure production system - just which is considered more important. Geoff. From psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.oz.au!gary Sat Apr 24 23:46:41 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cs.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.oz.au!gary Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:46:46 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <293516>; Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:47:34 -0400 Received: from moria.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Sun, 25 Apr 1993 13:46:33 +1000 To: 9fans-owner@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: <19930425133444.12381.frobozz@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU> In-Reply-To: <93Apr24.232829edt.293391@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> From: Gary Capell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: Dumb, fundamental question. Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 23:46:41 -0400 Your impression is the same as my impression. It's a very usable system by Bell Labs for Bell Labs to play on/create new stuff on. Obviously the posters to c.o.r. will have opinions on what should go into any OS (they made all sorts of suggestions for/criticisms of QNX too). Probably few of them actually USE plan9. You can see what strong forces there are for an OS to accrete "features". Speaking of feeping creaturism, are there plans to add a "find" command? From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Apr 26 05:43:08 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Mon, 26 Apr 1993 05:53:00 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292241>; Mon, 26 Apr 1993 05:49:51 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:49:29 +1000 To: Plan 9 Mailing List <9fans@cs.psu.edu> Message-ID: <19930426194308.27429.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> In-Reply-To: <93Apr24.130215edt.293067@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 05:43:08 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Fonts and unicode distribution... From: rob@research.att.com Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 13:00:48 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Apr24.130215edt.293067@psuvax1.cs.psu.edu> In the good old days, copyright notices meant something. The latest instance of their devaluation is Matty's posting in a public place of a number of copyrighted fonts from the Plan 9 distribution (itself a violation of the copyright) without reproducing the notice (which would be our request to anyone who asked to copy them). For those interested in maintaining the principle of letting artists maintain ownership of their work, the fonts Matty distributed should be stored with the following notice: The fonts in this directory are based on fonts Copyright (c) 1985 Bigelow & Holmes Inc. This text is (with a substitution for (c)) the contents of /lib/font/bit/(pelm,lucm)/NOTICE -rob Rob is of course right (he wins this week's award for the Most Public Slap on the Wrist). Ftp.cs.su.oz.au:/matty/unicode will be unavailable until I sort things out. For the record I do believe in copyright, the oversight has arisen from the ad hoc way this distribution has grown rather than any malicious or subversive intent on my part to deny authorship of the fonts. Matty. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Apr 26 12:32:50 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Mon, 26 Apr 1993 12:35:42 -0400 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292536>; Mon, 26 Apr 1993 12:33:09 -0400 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu by burdell.cc.gatech.edu with SMTP id AA22429 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>); Mon, 26 Apr 1993 12:32:56 -0400 Received: by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06053; Mon, 26 Apr 93 12:32:51 EDT From: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) Message-Id: <9304261632.AA06053@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 12:32:50 -0400 X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91) To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: a plug for 9term I've been beta-in g9term for 1.5 or 2 months and have very quickly come to be addicted. The directory is not accessible at the moment, but when it comes back, do get a copy of 9term and try it; I like it a lot. Arnold Robbins --- College of Computing Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 Phone: +1 404 894 9214 E-mail: arnold.robbins@cc.gatech.edu FAX: +1 404 853 9378 "He's not dead, he's metaphysically challenged." - Mystery Science Theatre 3000 From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Apr 27 07:10:15 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 07:18:05 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <291982>; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 07:13:47 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 21:13:25 +1000 To: Plan 9 Mailing List <9fans@cs.psu.edu>, nms@saukh.relcom.msk.su, k-waclena@uchicago.edu Message-ID: <19930427211015.23977.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 07:10:15 -0400 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: 9term... Okay, I've got some of the distribution problems sorted out. 9term, libXg, libframe, and libtext are now again available from ftp.cs.su.oz.au:/matty/unicode. I am waiting for a decision on the font archive so the fonts are unavailable at the moment. 9term will function with normal X fonts, however. 9x needs some tidying up so that should be back soon as well. Thanks for everyone's interest and patience and my apologies to those who've tried to ftp in the last half a week or so and have been unable to. Matty. From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Apr 27 12:59:21 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 13:06:12 -0400 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com ([163.179.1.9]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292897>; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 12:59:15 -0400 Received: from netapp.UUCP by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12680; Tue, 27 Apr 93 09:59:18 PDT Received: from ghoti.netapp.com by netapp.netapp.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12707; Tue, 27 Apr 93 09:59:24 PDT Received: by ghoti.netapp.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07648; Tue, 27 Apr 93 09:59:21 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 12:59:21 -0400 From: netapp!ghoti!byron@netcom.com (Byron Rakitzis) Message-Id: <9304271659.AA07648@ghoti.netapp.com> To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, matty@cs.su.oz.au Subject: Re: Fonts and unicode distribution... I don't mean to stir a hornets nest here, but it's my impression that there's no copyright protection for screen-bitmap fonts. Of course, that doesn't mean that omitting a distribution notice in this case is the Right Thing to do... From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Apr 27 23:54:10 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 00:01:21 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <294005>; Tue, 27 Apr 1993 23:58:56 -0400 Received: from orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (for cs.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 13:58:40 +1000 To: Byron Rakitzis Message-ID: <19930428135409.13623.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> In-Reply-To: <9304271659.AA07648@ghoti.netapp.com> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 23:54:10 -0400 Organisation: Basser Dept of Computer Science, Sydney University, Australia X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Face: B>D@!+;vE|ETmR!+pig${%L"["]tFj(v@m_F%@}o2q03)'6{jCds#> #sO^kokjP\LcmO}sB(,^SzSSq@v0x~UXrC \GJ3=i7FUOBLO}]EIuK(K4}LMg,=R7(#B3G&<"r1U~mct?!;M\z:lV Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 09:59:21 PDT From: netapp!ghoti!byron@netcom.com (Byron Rakitzis) Message-Id: <9304271659.AA07648@ghoti.netapp.com> To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, matty@cs.su.oz.au Subject: Re: Fonts and unicode distribution... I don't mean to stir a hornets nest here, but it's my impression that there's no copyright protection for screen-bitmap fonts. Of course, that doesn't mean that omitting a distribution notice in this case is the Right Thing to do... I was under the impression that this is the case in the USA -- screen-bitmap fonts are not protected -- but in Great Britian it's a different matter. I'm not sure of their status in Australia. Adding a NOTICE is definitely a Good Idea(TM) and I have written to Mr Charles A. Bigelow asking for permission to distribute the fonts. Matty. -- James Matthew Farrow | "For in that moment I beheld the ruin matty@cs.su.OZ.AU | of my existence. My world fell dark Basser Department of Computer Science | and my life became a shallow dream. Sydney University - FAX: +61 2 692 3838 | `Odi et amo. Excrucior.'" - Tlindah From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Apr 28 11:21:45 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 11:29:00 -0400 Received: from nexus.yorku.ca ([130.63.9.66]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292008>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 11:24:45 -0400 Received: from ursa.sis.yorku.ca ([130.63.245.12]) by nexus.yorku.ca with SMTP id <9229>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 11:23:50 -0400 Received: from localhost.yorku.ca by sis.yorku.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20052; Wed, 28 Apr 93 11:21:46 EDT Message-Id: <9304281521.AA20052@sis.yorku.ca> To: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: Re: Fonts and unicode distribution... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Apr 93 23:54:10 EDT." <19930428135409.13623.frobozz@orthanc.cs.su.OZ.AU> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 11:21:45 -0400 From: "Ozan S. Yigit" > I was under the impression that this is the case in the USA -- > screen-bitmap fonts are not protected ... It is known as the exclusion of utilitarian works. In US, typefaces are considered utilitarian works, so they cannot be protected by copyright. oz From cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Apr 28 14:02:46 1993 Return-Path: cs.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cs.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 14:06:38 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cs.psu.edu with SMTP id <292476>; Wed, 28 Apr 1993 14:03:11 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA07234 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cs.psu.edu); Wed, 28 Apr 93 11:02:50 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA21091; Wed, 28 Apr 93 11:02:48 PDT Message-Id: <9304281802.AA21091@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: "Ozan S. Yigit" Cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: Re: Fonts and unicode distribution... Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 14:02:46 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu Although fonts themselves cannot be protected, it's likely that the actual data file representing a particular instance of a font is protectible. For example, I dare you to redistribute one of Adobe's Type I data files. Consequently, the interesting questions regarding the Plan 9 fonts are: (1) How did Bell Labs derive the bitmap data? If they digitized the fonts themselves from, say, blown up photographs, they are on safe legal ground. Likewise if they constructed the fonts by hand with a bitmap editor. (Given that these fonts look awfully reminescent of the "blit" fonts, I suspect that they date to the early 1980's and were constructed by hand.) (2) How does Bell Labs feel about us using their bitmap data files? The answer to #2 seems to be "Fine, so long as the copyright notice is preserved on all copies." From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Sat Jul 3 13:48:45 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Sat, 3 Jul 1993 13:54:28 -0400 Received: from chalmers.se ([129.16.1.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292878>; Sat, 3 Jul 1993 13:48:51 -0400 Received: from hackes.dtek.chalmers.se by chalmers.se (5.60+IDA/3.14+gl) id AA19769; Sat, 3 Jul 93 19:48:47 +0200 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 13:48:45 -0400 From: Magnus Homann Message-Id: <9307031748.AA05588@hackes.dtek.chalmers.se> Received: from hacker.dtek.chalmers.se by hackes.dtek.chalmers.se (5.59+IDA+CTH/3.14+gl) id AA05588; Sat, 3 Jul 93 19:48:45 +0200 Received: by hacker.dtek.chalmers.se (5.59+IDA+CTH/3.14+gl) id AA14502; Sat, 3 Jul 93 19:48:44 +0200 To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? Is there someone, somewhere who has ported a U*ix program to Plan 9. I'm sure there is, so I wonder where I can get more information about these ports. We haven't got our system running yet - we'll try on wednesday - so I don't really know if it's even interesting to port any programs! (Wouldn't it be nice to have Emacs on your system... :-) Actually I had in mind something for managing mail and News. Impossible? Regards, Homann -- Magnus Homann "They don't call it the net of a d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se million lies for nothing" -- Vinge (?) From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Sat Jul 3 14:53:53 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Sat, 3 Jul 1993 15:01:17 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293040>; Sat, 3 Jul 1993 14:54:08 -0400 Received: from cacofonix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA12863 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu); Sat, 3 Jul 93 11:53:56 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by cacofonix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA05195; Sat, 3 Jul 93 11:53:55 PDT Message-Id: <9307031853.AA05195@cacofonix.cs.uoregon.edu> From: Mike Haertel To: Magnus Homann Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 14:53:53 -0400 Sender: mike@cacofonix.cs.uoregon.edu The ape library and the associated "pcc" compiler have worked very well for me for porting a variety of unix programs to plan 9. The most annoying aspect of the whole process is not porting C code, but porting makefiles and the associated shell scripts. To this end, I have ported the almquist /bin/sh from netbsd, and gnu make. Using these tools I have been able to configure and build a variety* of gnu software right out of the box. I've also ported the pbmplus suite of bitmap tools, although that required some small source changes. In the process I've found a few bugs in the ape library; most notably the wait() function does not return exit status correctly. What I think happened is the kernel recently started putting the string ":" into the exit status, and the ape library has not been updated to know this. I eventually (september or october) will make all this stuff available to others, but right now my time is limited. Mike * sorry, no emacs. :-) It can be done--in 1991, out of sheer masochism, and to annoy rob, I ported gnu emacs to plan 9. Fortunately, it has been lost to the mists of time... From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 5 06:06:20 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 06:13:44 -0400 Received: from tamarin.bath.ac.uk ([138.38.32.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291977>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 06:06:49 -0400 Received: from ss1.bath.ac.uk by tamarin.bath.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <17582-0@tamarin.bath.ac.uk>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:06:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 06:06:20 -0400 From: Icarus Sparry To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: sfio vs bio Reply-to: I.Sparry@bath.ac.uk Message-ID: <9307051106.aa07329@uk.ac.bath.ss1> David Korn and Kiem-Phong Vo have just released a new version of sfio, the 'Safe Fast I/O' package, which is designed as a replacement for stdio. The paper 'How to use the Plan 9 C Compiler' tells us "Bio is a small and very efficient, particularly for buffer-at-a-time or line-at-a-time I/O. Even for character-at-a-time I/O, however, it is significantly faster than the Standard I/O library" Before I do it, has anyone else measured these two on similar hardware (e.g. Sun Sparc-Station 2, running SunOS)? The paper with sfio gives some figures for Andrew Humes FIO package and some existing stdio packages. Sfio has more facilities, e.g. you can define error handlers for streams, and can make use of operating system facilities like memory mapped files. Icarus From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 5 11:31:33 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:37:10 -0400 Received: from postman.osf.org ([130.105.1.152]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292236>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:30:25 -0400 Received: from sulphur.osf.org by postman.osf.org (5.64+/OSF 1.0) id AA19366; Mon, 5 Jul 93 11:30:04 -0400 Received: by sulphur.osf.org (1.37.109.4/4.7) id AA08285; Mon, 5 Jul 93 11:31:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:31:33 -0400 From: rsalz@osf.org Message-Id: <9307051531.AA08285@sulphur.osf.org> To: d0asta@dtek.chalmers.se, plan9-fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Er, rather than porting existing stuff (GNU, etc) shouldn't you be writing NEW programs with the plan9 model? From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 5 11:43:14 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:49:41 -0400 Received: from talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk ([144.32.136.89]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292195>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:43:37 -0400 Received: by talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0oCshG-00055zC; Mon, 5 Jul 93 16:43:14 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:43:14 -0400 From: "Roger Peppe" To: rsalz@osf.org Subject: Re: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu > Er, rather than porting existing stuff (GNU, etc) shouldn't > you be writing NEW programs with the plan9 model? sometimes it's non-trivial to re-invent _every_ wheel before using it, however nice it might be... :-) IMHO, one of the nice things about plan 9 is how easily most `naive' unix programs port to it. rog. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 5 11:59:04 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 12:07:12 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292271>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 12:00:46 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 11:59:04 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Jul5.120046edt.292271@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> if you want emacs, you can run it almost anywhere else; why bother to run it here? if you trust us enough to try our operating system, why not trust us enough to try our other software, like the window system and the editor? why not see if we have a good idea in our structuring of the libraries and header files? why marvel at the compatibilities of the system when some of its best ideas might be incompatibilities? why install a replica of your familiar playground with all these new toys around? -rob pike From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 5 13:20:25 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:34:44 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292290>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:20:32 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA20502 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:20:26 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA24399; Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:20:25 PDT Message-Id: <9307051720.AA24399@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sfio vs bio Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:20:25 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu >Sfio has more facilities, e.g. you can define error handlers for >streams, and can make use of operating system facilities like memory >mapped files. Sfio is also 7000 (10000 if you count stdio compatibility) lines of code, whereas bio is about 700. Sfio is not 10 times faster or 10 times more useful. You're comparing apples to kumquats. From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 5 13:26:40 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:34:43 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292313>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:27:13 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA20531 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:26:44 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA24457; Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:26:41 PDT Message-Id: <9307051726.AA24457@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: rsalz@osf.org Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:26:40 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu >Er, rather than porting existing stuff (GNU, etc) shouldn't >you be writing NEW programs with the plan9 model? I think the only place where the "plan 9 model" is dramatically different is in window system software. There's a large amount of unix software that fits plan 9 just fine, and it would be awfully stupid to reinvent wheels when there's genuinely new things to work on instead... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 5 13:39:29 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:51:16 -0400 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292314>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:44:46 -0400 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA20607 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:39:31 -0700 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA24708; Mon, 5 Jul 93 10:39:30 PDT Message-Id: <9307051739.AA24708@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: oops Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:39:29 -0400 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu Unthinkingly, I wrote: >I think the only place where the "plan 9 model" is dramatically >different is in window system software. I should clarify this: In Unix, most programs take standard input and produce standard output. The same is true in Plan 9. So when I said the plan 9 model is mostly the same, I was thinking of how you run programs, not how you write them. The incompatibilities are a bit more dramatic from a programmer's point of view. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 5 13:59:18 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 14:31:18 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292369>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 14:23:34 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 13:59:18 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ported U*ix programs to Plan 9? to: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Status: RO >> I think the only place where the "plan 9 model" is dramatically >> different is in window system software. i disagree. 9P, precise control of the contents of multiple namespaces, user-level file servers, and the simplicity of the process model make a big difference in the way one designs the implementation of both old and new functions in the Plan 9 environment. many of the features i listed appear in some form in other systems, but usually they are sufficiently hard to use that people don't bother. by contrast, in Plan 9 they are used almost casually, and to good effect. >> I should clarify this: In Unix, most programs take standard input >> and produce standard output. The same is true in Plan 9. So when a Plan 9 program can also make things visible in a name space, to allow them to be manipulated by both new and existing commands. that possibility can dramatically change the design of a program or system of programs. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 5 23:23:11 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2628>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 09:54:03 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292850>; Mon, 5 Jul 1993 23:23:19 -0400 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (for cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 06 Jul 1993 13:19:16 +1000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: <19930706131044.7045.frobozz@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: Gary Capell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: porting unix progs to plan9 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 23:23:11 -0400 1. I'm afraid of losing the nice feel of a small number of good tools if *nix progs are ported just for the purpose of having familiar old faithfuls. 2. For those areas where there IS a definite hole (e.g. news reader), writing new applications seems a much better idea, to take advantage of the nicer programming environment. For example I've put together the skeleton of a calendar management file system, and dhog here is working on a news reading file system, which will hopefully fit in nicely with other plan 9 tools, especially help(1). P.S. Help(1) is way cool. Try it for an hour and you won't go back. And I hear rumours of a successor called acme which should be even better. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 6 00:48:22 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2601>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 09:54:01 -0400 Received: from nexus.yorku.ca ([130.63.9.66]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291952>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 00:52:51 -0400 Received: from ursa.sis.yorku.ca ([130.63.74.12]) by nexus.yorku.ca with SMTP id <9225>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 00:51:18 -0400 Received: by sis.yorku.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01054; Tue, 6 Jul 93 00:48:22 EDT Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 00:48:22 -0400 From: "Ozan S. Yigit" Message-Id: <9307060448.AA01054@sis.yorku.ca> To: gary@cs.su.OZ.AU Subject: Re: porting unix progs to plan9 Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >2. For those areas where there IS a definite hole (e.g. news reader), >writing new applications seems a much better idea... I entirely agree with this: I detest all newsreaders: they are cramped, monolithic pieces of cybercrud that make vms utilities look simple and elegant. There needs to be a better way to do news, both on an average un*x and on plan 9. oz From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 6 07:31:53 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2620>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 09:54:00 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293101>; Tue, 6 Jul 1993 07:31:59 -0400 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (for cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 06 Jul 1993 13:19:16 +1000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: <19930706131044.7045.frobozz@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: Gary Capell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=X-utf-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: porting unix progs to plan9 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 07:31:53 -0400 1. I'm afraid of losing the nice feel of a small number of good tools if *nix progs are ported just for the purpose of having familiar old faithfuls. 2. For those areas where there IS a definite hole (e.g. news reader), writing new applications seems a much better idea, to take advantage of the nicer programming environment. For example I've put together the skeleton of a calendar management file system, and dhog here is working on a news reading file system, which will hopefully fit in nicely with other plan 9 tools, especially help(1). P.S. Help(1) is way cool. Try it for an hour and you won't go back. And I hear rumours of a successor called acme which should be even better. From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Tue Jul 13 15:25:08 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:42:38 -0400 Received: from phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.4.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293674>; Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:24:53 -0400 Received: by phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA06066; Tue, 13 Jul 93 12:25:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 15:25:08 -0400 Illegal-Object: Syntax error in From: address found on psuvax1.cse.psu.edu: From: Jerry W.Johnson ^ ^-illegal period in phrase \-phrases containing '.' must be quoted Message-Id: <9307131925.AA06066@phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu> From: To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Hi 9'ers, does anyone have any examples of ALEF code they might share? (Or know of an FTP site?) It needn't be all that complex, just something to demonstrate the concurrency primitives. I intend to write a simple demonstration program; like the "classic" dining philosophers. Also, is SPARC and MIPS the only supported platforms? Specifically, has anyone ported the compiler to the PC? Any input is appreciated. Thanks in advance. --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jul 14 23:33:56 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Wed, 14 Jul 1993 23:41:43 -0400 Received: from hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.108]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294904>; Wed, 14 Jul 1993 23:34:51 -0400 Received: by hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA06035; Wed, 14 Jul 93 20:33:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1993 23:33:56 -0400 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <9307150333.AA06035@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Hi 9'ers, my question is of the pc installation. We've always used the original 1.44 floppy. In "Configuring for a PC", it is discussed a way to copy the boot files to a disk to use as the boot disk. DOS doesn't like the AUX directory in /386/bin. Even if the files are zipped, then expanded into DOS, it refuses to create or maintain this directory. How have others got around this? Similarly, one may copy the image (pcdisk) to a floppy, but of what utility is this? Thanks in advance, --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Jul 15 00:08:21 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Thu, 15 Jul 1993 00:14:16 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294916>; Thu, 15 Jul 1993 00:08:50 -0400 Received: from cs.su.oz.au (for cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Thu, 15 Jul 1993 14:08:29 +1000 Received: from basser.cs.su.OZ.AU insecurely by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU; Thu, 15 Jul 1993 14:08:24 +1000 To: Jerry W Johnson Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1993 23:33:56 -0400." <9307150333.AA06035@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 00:08:21 -0400 From: Bob Kummerfeld Message-Id: <93Jul15.000850edt.294916@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> DOS doesn't like a file or directory name of "aux" or the files /dev/c: and /dev/a: The way to do it is to boot from the floppy, use the floppy as your file system and then copy the files and directories from the floppy to /n/c: using plan9. (ie mkdir /n/c:/386/bin/aux, etc) Bob. From hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Wed Jul 21 12:11:48 1993 Return-Path: hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu ([128.100.102.51]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2610>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 11:23:46 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <2230>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 11:21:43 -0400 From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 12:11:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Subject: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows Not sure which of these lists (9fans or sam-fans) is more appropriate, but here goes: Running 9term or samterm under Openwindows (sparcstation elc; type 5 keyboard; openwindows 2; sunos 4.1.1) I find that the Caps Lock key is interpreted as Shift Lock -- i.e. 123 comes out as !"# and so on. It looks like a libXg bug to me... As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette and/or had a fix for it? pete -- Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388 pete@minster.york.ac.uk `Today keeps slipping by me, it leaves no aftertaste.' From hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Wed Jul 21 13:47:07 1993 Return-Path: hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu ([128.100.102.51]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:47:28 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <2230>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:48:03 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:46:25 -0400 To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Subject: Re: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jul 1993 12:11:48 EDT." Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:47:07 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Jul21.134625edt.2591@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is | pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE | YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette | and/or had a fix for it? It doesn't show up here, running MIT X11. In terms of shouting, if you use MODULA-3, encrusted as it is with upper case keywords, caps-lock is about the only alternative (and a poor one at that) to a context sensitive editor like emacs. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jul 21 13:47:07 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 14:03:00 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294031>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:48:11 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:46:25 -0400 To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Subject: Re: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jul 1993 12:11:48 EDT." Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 13:47:07 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Jul21.134625edt.2591@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is | pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE | YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette | and/or had a fix for it? It doesn't show up here, running MIT X11. In terms of shouting, if you use MODULA-3, encrusted as it is with upper case keywords, caps-lock is about the only alternative (and a poor one at that) to a context sensitive editor like emacs. From minster.york.ac.uk!pete Wed Jul 21 17:52:49 1993 Return-Path: minster.york.ac.uk!pete Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:00:10 -0400 From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:52:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk, schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows Cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu >From schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Wed Jul 21 13:47:07 0400 1993 [I said] >| As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is >| pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE >| YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette >| and/or had a fix for it? >It doesn't show up here, running MIT X11. I tried re-linking against MIT X11R4 libraries rather than the Openwindows ones, with the same result. I guess it's an Openwindows 2 server ``feature''. Sigh. >In terms of shouting, if you use MODULA-3, encrusted as it is with >upper case keywords, caps-lock is about the only alternative (and a >poor one at that) to a context sensitive editor like emacs. Hmmm.... I think if I was using sam to edit a language which required upper case I'd knock together some sort of filter to do the capitalisation and pipe the file through it before a write... that's what the '|' command is there for! Couple of extra keystrokes perhaps (maybe only one if you're using the keyboard extensions to sam) and it avoids the dreaded emacs... pete -- Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD +44 (0)904 433388 EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' From hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Wed Jul 21 17:52:49 1993 Return-Path: hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu!sam-fans-owner Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu ([128.100.102.51]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:01:42 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <2230>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:01:38 -0400 From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:52:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk, schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows Cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu >From schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Wed Jul 21 13:47:07 0400 1993 [I said] >| As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is >| pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE >| YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette >| and/or had a fix for it? >It doesn't show up here, running MIT X11. I tried re-linking against MIT X11R4 libraries rather than the Openwindows ones, with the same result. I guess it's an Openwindows 2 server ``feature''. Sigh. >In terms of shouting, if you use MODULA-3, encrusted as it is with >upper case keywords, caps-lock is about the only alternative (and a >poor one at that) to a context sensitive editor like emacs. Hmmm.... I think if I was using sam to edit a language which required upper case I'd knock together some sort of filter to do the capitalisation and pipe the file through it before a write... that's what the '|' command is there for! Couple of extra keystrokes perhaps (maybe only one if you're using the keyboard extensions to sam) and it avoids the dreaded emacs... pete -- Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD +44 (0)904 433388 EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jul 21 17:52:49 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:07:58 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294181>; Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:01:26 -0400 From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 17:52:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk, schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: libXg and caps lock on Sun type V keyboard under openwindows Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, sam-fans@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu >From schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Wed Jul 21 13:47:07 0400 1993 [I said] >| As far as I'm concerned this is only a minor irritant -- Caps Lock is >| pointless anyway in these days of OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT DON'T REQUIRE >| YOU TO SHOUT -- but I wondered if anyone else had noticed this bug-ette >| and/or had a fix for it? >It doesn't show up here, running MIT X11. I tried re-linking against MIT X11R4 libraries rather than the Openwindows ones, with the same result. I guess it's an Openwindows 2 server ``feature''. Sigh. >In terms of shouting, if you use MODULA-3, encrusted as it is with >upper case keywords, caps-lock is about the only alternative (and a >poor one at that) to a context sensitive editor like emacs. Hmmm.... I think if I was using sam to edit a language which required upper case I'd knock together some sort of filter to do the capitalisation and pipe the file through it before a write... that's what the '|' command is there for! Couple of extra keystrokes perhaps (maybe only one if you're using the keyboard extensions to sam) and it avoids the dreaded emacs... pete -- Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD +44 (0)904 433388 EMAIL: pete@minster.york.ac.uk `There's no room for enigmas in built-up areas' From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Jul 22 03:32:04 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Thu, 22 Jul 1993 01:41:14 -0400 Received: from struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de ([134.60.79.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291918>; Thu, 22 Jul 1993 01:33:22 -0400 Received: by struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de id AA01456 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Thu, 22 Jul 1993 07:32:04 +0200 From: Thomas Nau Message-Id: <199307220532.AA01456@struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de> Subject: Plan 9 running a X server ? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 03:32:04 -0400 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30] Hi fans, has anyone ported (or heard of) a X11R5 server running on a Plan 9 system for connectivity to out UNIX boxes ? Thomas ********************************************************************** Thomas Nau (Thomas.Nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de, nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de) Departement of Anaesthesia, University of Ulm, Germany think about 42 and DONT PANIC ********************************************************************** From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Jul 26 00:12:55 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 00:29:02 -0400 Received: from hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.108]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292749>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 00:14:16 -0400 Received: by hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA26317; Sun, 25 Jul 93 21:12:55 -0700 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <9307260412.AA26317@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Term to CPU Server? To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 00:12:55 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Hi 9`ers, could someone please expound on what is required to bring a machine (sparc2, same as the fs) up as a cpu server the first time, other than changing the bootf, fs and auth variables in /lib/ndb/local and loading 9sscpu? The system is up and running as term and fs, but what more is required to change the term to a cpu server? As well as detail what is required to then make this machine the authentication server, please? Thanks in advance, --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 26 07:55:00 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:16:57 -0400 Received: from relay.pipex.net ([158.43.128.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292433>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:04:41 -0400 Received: from pipex.net by relay.pipex.net with SMTP (PP) id <28301-0@relay.pipex.net>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:03:56 +0100 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Tim.Goodwin@pipex.net Subject: Obtaining Plan 9 as an individual Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 07:55:00 -0400 Message-ID: <"relay.pipe.335:26.06.93.12.04.18"@pipex.net> Does anyone know what my chances of obtaining Plan 9 are as an individual? Would it be worth writing to Bell Labs? Failing that, maybe I'll have to find a university who'd take me on a as a (very) part time assistant OS hacker... Tim. From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!plan.9 Mon Jul 26 10:30:01 1993 Forwarded: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 23:39:18 -0400 Forwarded: "9fans@cs " Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!plan.9 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:32:50 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292801>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:33:36 -0400 From: plan.9@research.att.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:30:01 -0400 To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Jul26.103336edt.292801@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >> From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 26 08:11:55 EDT 1993 >> Received: by inet.att.com; Mon Jul 26 08:11 EDT 1993 >> Received: from relay.pipex.net ([158.43.128.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292433>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:04:41 -0400 >> Received: from pipex.net by relay.pipex.net with SMTP (PP) >> id <28301-0@relay.pipex.net>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:03:56 +0100 >> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >> From: Tim.Goodwin@pipex.net >> Subject: Obtaining Plan 9 as an individual >> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 07:55:00 -0400 >> Message-ID: <"relay.pipe.335:26.06.93.12.04.18"@pipex.net> >> >> Does anyone know what my chances of obtaining Plan 9 are as an >> individual? Would it be worth writing to Bell Labs? >> >> Failing that, maybe I'll have to find a university who'd take me on a >> as a (very) part time assistant OS hacker... >> >> Tim. it might become possible for individuals to acquire the system. steps are being taken in that direction. the decision depends on various factors that are not influencable by outside campaigns and there is no promise of a successful conclusion, however. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 27 08:35:11 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:51:08 -0400 Received: from mod.civil.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.142.6]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292130>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:39:59 -0400 Received: by mod.civil.su.oz.au id <28691>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:39:18 +1000 From: John (Most modern computers would break if you stood on them) Mackin Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 08:35:11 -0400 To: Tim.Goodwin@pipex.net cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Obtaining Plan 9 as an individual In-Reply-To: <"relay.pipe.335:26.06.93.12.04.18"@pipex.net> Message-ID: <199307272235.11022.9.baboy@civil.su.oz.au> X-Face: 39seV7n\`#asqOFdx#oj/Uz*lseO_1n9n7rQS;~ve\e`&Z},nU1+>0X^>mg&M.^X$[ez>{F k5[Ah<7xBWF-@-ru?& @4K4-b`ydd^`(n%Z{ A friend of mine tried this, writing to the lady as specified for universities and explaining that he wanted it only for personal research, that he'd send back his changes, etc. He just heard back today after about two months. The return letter told him that he couldn't have a license, but thanking him for writing and saying that his letter and others like it were helping to strengthen the position of a campaign to make Plan 9 available publically. Therefore, I would strongly urge you to write. OK, John. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 27 10:12:05 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:27:29 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292306>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:18:26 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:12:05 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Jul27.101826edt.292306@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> please don't write. we're working on getting it released. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 27 10:40:25 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:56:01 -0400 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292365>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:40:31 -0400 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu by burdell.cc.gatech.edu with SMTP id AA12152 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>); Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:40:27 -0400 Received: by penfold.cc.gatech.edu id AA07566 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:40:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 10:40:25 -0400 From: Arnold Robbins Message-Id: <199307271440.AA07566@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: plan 9 platforms I was once given to understand that the HP "snake" was the next target architecture for a plan 9 port, but it isn't listed in the current doc. Is that port in progress, or was it never done? Just curious. Thanks, Arnold From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 27 11:20:30 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2591>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 11:29:52 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292709>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 11:21:21 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 11:20:30 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Jul27.112121edt.292709@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> HP took far to long to release the documentation for the snake, so that port, although planned, was never done. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jul 27 23:39:18 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2601>; Wed, 28 Jul 1993 00:03:04 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294099>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 23:51:23 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2610>; Tue, 27 Jul 1993 23:39:24 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: forwarded mail from Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 23:39:18 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Jul27.233924edt.2610@groucho.cse.psu.edu> This was addressed to 9fans-owner, but was probably intended for the whole list. ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!plan.9 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:32:50 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292801>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:33:36 -0400 From: plan.9@research.att.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 10:30:01 -0400 To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Jul26.103336edt.292801@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >> From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Jul 26 08:11:55 EDT 1993 >> Received: by inet.att.com; Mon Jul 26 08:11 EDT 1993 >> Received: from relay.pipex.net ([158.43.128.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292433>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 08:04:41 -0400 >> Received: from pipex.net by relay.pipex.net with SMTP (PP) >> id <28301-0@relay.pipex.net>; Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:03:56 +0100 >> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >> From: Tim.Goodwin@pipex.net >> Subject: Obtaining Plan 9 as an individual >> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 07:55:00 -0400 >> Message-ID: <"relay.pipe.335:26.06.93.12.04.18"@pipex.net> >> >> Does anyone know what my chances of obtaining Plan 9 are as an >> individual? Would it be worth writing to Bell Labs? >> >> Failing that, maybe I'll have to find a university who'd take me on a >> as a (very) part time assistant OS hacker... >> >> Tim. it might become possible for individuals to acquire the system. steps are being taken in that direction. the decision depends on various factors that are not influencable by outside campaigns and there is no promise of a successful conclusion, however. ------- End of Forwarded Message From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Jul 29 19:44:03 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:56:20 -0400 Received: from jamuna.Stanford.EDU ([36.12.0.84]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294790>; Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:44:21 -0400 Received: by jamuna.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-Robotics-eef) id AA08658; Thu, 29 Jul 93 16:44:03 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:44:03 -0400 From: Sean Quinlan Message-Id: <9307292344.AA08658@jamuna.Stanford.EDU> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Plan9 file server for a PC Has anyone ported the plan9 file server to a PC? thanks sean quinlan From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jul 30 11:48:48 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho with SMTP id <2580>; Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:18:29 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292558>; Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:01:54 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 11:48:48 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: >> Has anyone ported the plan9 file server to a PC? >> thanks >> sean quinlan i did that a few months ago. it only supports ISA at the moment (i haven't got an EISA yet to try), and thus only 16 Mbytes since i don't compensate for the limitations of the pc's DMA addressing. (it wouldn't be too hard: the SCSI adapter could allocate some space below 16meg and copy the data; whether that's sensible is another matter.) i run the file server on a 16Mb 486sx33 with an Ultrastor 14F and two Fujitsu SCSI-2 drives. (it boots from a floppy.) the ethernets supported are those supported by the cpu/terminal kernel and also NE2100 clones, which use the AMD Lance (another device with addressing problems!). the 486sx33 serves a 486dx2-66 CPU server and a few terminals. i can't compare its performance to an SS2; i improvised a bootstrap for Plan 9 that went straight to the pc via 9sscd. the only host adapter supported is the Ultrastor 14F. the driver should work with the 34F with at most minor changes, if any, but my 34F and not-quite-VESA motherboard don't agree, so i haven't been able to test it. a bus-mastering VESA device can avoid the 16Mb DMA restrictions, however, making an ISA/VESA pc more useful as a file server. i have an Adaptec 1542B/Bustek 542B driver, but it doesn't drive discs (it runs the 1542B in target mode, not initiator mode); still, most of what is required is there. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jul 30 12:20:06 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho with SMTP id <2579>; Fri, 30 Jul 1993 13:06:39 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293153>; Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:46:00 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 12:20:06 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: scsi driver, small bits & pieces i have an Ultrastor 14F driver for the cpu/terminal kernel. i've been using it fairly heavily for a few months; it seems all right, at least with discs and CDROM. i've also got a variant for the Adaptec 1542B/Bustek 542B, but i haven't used it much. if anyone would like it/them, please let me know. i've got a few minor changes that might be of interest: 16550A support in devuart.c and hayes.c (seems to work). changes to devvga.c, aux/vga and /lib/vgadb to give minimal support for (my) S3/911 card in 1024x768 mode. it doesn't use the accelerator, and still needs tuning, but if anyone else wants to help fiddle with it, let me know. From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Sat Aug 7 18:15:11 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2601>; Sat, 7 Aug 1993 18:24:28 -0400 Received: from corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.4.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292582>; Sat, 7 Aug 1993 18:16:56 -0400 Received: by corpse.ecst.csuchico.edu (16.8/16.2) id AA28802; Sat, 7 Aug 93 15:15:11 -0700 From: Jerry W Johnson Subject: Plan 9 Mods? To: plan.9@research.att.com Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1993 18:15:11 -0400 Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Message-Id: <93Aug7.181656edt.292582@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Hi 9'ers, have there been other modifications to plan9, besides that long list from Rob Pike & the ALEF changes from Phil Winterbottom, that have been released by AT&T? Specifically, for the compilers or mail? ALSO, can someone explain what is required for us to have our "point of contact" changed, please? TIA, --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Thu Aug 12 17:10:23 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 17:19:20 -0400 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <294467>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 17:10:25 -0400 Makemail: v1.9c MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Computer Science and Engineering, Penn State University From: Dan Ehrlich To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Possible Mailing List Problems Dmail: v1.6d Message-Id: <93Aug12.171025edt.294467@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 17:10:23 -0400 Hi, I am the postmaster here and Scott Schwartz reported to me that there may be a problem with this mailing list. Please ignore this test message. -- Dan Ehrlich -- Dan Ehrlich - Systems Analyst - PSU Computer Science and Engineering "Universities should be safe havens where ruthless examination of realities will not be distorted by the aim to please or inhibited by the risk of displeasure." - Kingman Brewster From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Thu Aug 12 18:04:26 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:13:07 -0400 Received: from hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.108]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294510>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:05:49 -0400 Received: by hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA14000; Thu, 12 Aug 93 15:04:26 -0700 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <9308122204.AA14000@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: ALEF Installation? To: plan.9@research.att.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:04:26 -0400 Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Hi 9'ers, I've run into some problems installing the new ALEF files. To get this far, I: Copied the old alef tree to /sys/src/alef.old. Installed the new tree into /sys/src/alef. Copied back fcall.h and the conversions, convM2S & convS2M. Copied the new include files to /sys/include/alef. Installed the new sparc mkfile and mksyslib. Made the dirs /$objtype/lib/alef where not done. Made the new compilers (kal,val,8al) by running the mkfiles in /sys/src/alef/k /v /8 using "objtype=architecture mk" and copying the resulting binary to /$objtype/bin. Then from /sys/src/alef I ran "objtype=architecture mk install"; all the libraries (/$objtype/lib/alef/*.a) seem to compile fine, (assuming none generated for the 68020 & only libA.a, libbio.a for the 386), but $objtype=mips generates the error: val -w div64.l div64.l":12: syntax error near symbol 'lint' mk: val -w div64.l : exit status=rc 8989:val 8991 errors mk: for (i in ... : exit status:=rc 8191:mk 8999:error mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8049:val 8991:errors mk: for (i in ... : exit status=rc 8191:mk 8988:error mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8042:mk 8190:error mk: mk $objtype.install : exit status=rc 8039:mk 8041:error If, instead, "mk installall" is executed from /sys/src/alef, the compile lists errors "ar: *.8 cannot open" for: /sys/src/alef/lib/libbio, /sys/src/alef/lib/p9, & ( announce.l:69 WARNING parameter INT nf declared but not used ) /sys/src/alef/lib/port. Anybody got any ideas, insights? ALSO, once the installation is complete, will the example code which came on the 2nd rev cdrom, (/sys/src/alef/test, /sys/src/alef/test/Y), all compile correctly? From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!philw Thu Aug 12 18:56:51 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!philw Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 19:00:40 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294501>; Thu, 12 Aug 1993 19:01:35 -0400 From: philw@research.att.com Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1993 18:56:51 -0400 To: plan9-fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Aug12.190135edt.294501@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >Then from /sys/src/alef I ran "objtype=architecture mk install"; >all the libraries (/$objtype/lib/alef/*.a) seem to compile fine, >(assuming none generated for the 68020 & only libA.a, libbio.a for >the 386), but $objtype=mips generates the error: >val -w div64.l >div64.l":12: syntax error near symbol 'lint' >mk: val -w div64.l : exit status=rc 8989:val 8991 errors >mk: for (i in ... : exit status:=rc 8191:mk 8999:error >mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8049:val 8991:errors >mk: for (i in ... : exit status=rc 8191:mk 8988:error >mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8042:mk 8190:error >mk: mk $objtype.install : exit status=rc 8039:mk 8041:error div64.l is for a 64 bit mips compiler I have been working on. Just delete the file from the library. When or If I do a 64 bit distribution I will include everything necessary. >once the installation is complete, will the example code which >came on the 2nd rev cdrom, (/sys/src/alef/test, /sys/src/alef/test/Y), No. The /sys/src/alef/test/Y I included with the new compilers I shipped you compile and run. Some of the tests are supposed to generate compiler errors. philw. From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Fri Aug 13 11:30:58 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2579>; Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:35:30 -0400 Received: from phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.4.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292904>; Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:29:40 -0400 Received: by phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA04124; Fri, 13 Aug 93 08:30:58 -0700 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <9308131530.AA04124@phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: ALEF Installation (REPOST) To: plan.9@research.att.com Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 11:30:58 -0400 Cc: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] I think this had some problems getting out. Sorry, if you got it twice. --JJ Hi 9'ers, I've run into some problems installing the new ALEF files. To get this far, I: Copied the old alef tree to /sys/src/alef.old. Installed the new tree into /sys/src/alef. Copied back fcall.h and the conversions, convM2S & convS2M. Copied the new include files to /sys/include/alef. Installed the new sparc mkfile and mksyslib. Made the dirs /$objtype/lib/alef where not done. Made the new compilers (kal,val,8al) by running the mkfiles in /sys/src/alef/k /v /8 using "objtype=architecture mk" and copying the resulting binary to /$objtype/bin. Then from /sys/src/alef I ran "objtype=architecture mk install"; all the libraries (/$objtype/lib/alef/*.a) seem to compile fine, (assuming none generated for the 68020 & only libA.a, libbio.a for the 386), but $objtype=mips generates the error: val -w div64.l div64.l":12: syntax error near symbol 'lint' mk: val -w div64.l : exit status=rc 8989:val 8991 errors mk: for (i in ... : exit status:=rc 8191:mk 8999:error mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8049:val 8991:errors mk: for (i in ... : exit status=rc 8191:mk 8988:error mk: @{cd v; mk ... : exit status=rc 8042:mk 8190:error mk: mk $objtype.install : exit status=rc 8039:mk 8041:error If, instead, "mk installall" is executed from /sys/src/alef, the compile lists errors "ar: *.8 cannot open" for: /sys/src/alef/lib/libbio, /sys/src/alef/lib/p9, & ( announce.l:69 WARNING parameter INT nf declared but not used ) /sys/src/alef/lib/port. Anybody got any ideas, insights? ALSO, once the installation is complete, will the example code which came on the 2nd rev cdrom, (/sys/src/alef/test, /sys/src/alef/test/Y), all compile correctly? From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Aug 16 17:50:48 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 16 Aug 1993 18:40:26 -0400 Received: from hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.108]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293109>; Mon, 16 Aug 1993 17:51:02 -0400 Received: by hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA29438; Mon, 16 Aug 93 14:50:48 -0700 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <9308162150.AA29438@hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Mail Help? To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 17:50:48 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Hi 9'ers, does anyone have the mail system up and running on their plan9 system? We've got the 2nd rev cdrom & the updates sent by Mr Pike. How about some general implementation info, please? AND; Does mail require a cpu server to be running cron? Does cron need to be modified for mail? What listens for mail posts? How does it work? Where, (besides the man page), can we learn more? We've created mailboxes (edmail -c) and now when we try to use mail,we get the input screen, we type the input, press "CTRL d", "ESC" we get: sendmail 233: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0x8 pc=0x83b0 We're using sparc2's. Any help/info is appreciated. TIA. Cheers, --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Mon Aug 16 19:25:10 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 16 Aug 1993 20:22:59 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293169>; Mon, 16 Aug 1993 20:02:33 -0400 From: presotto@research.att.com Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 19:25:10 -0400 To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu re: Jerry Johnson's email bug Message-Id: <93Aug16.200233edt.293169@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> % diff /sys/src/cmd/upas/send/rewrite.c /n/juke/plan.9/sys/src/cmd/upas/send 94,96d93 < re = rule_parse(s_restart(line)); < if(re == 0) < continue; 102a100 > re = rule_parse(s_restart(line)); From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!gary Sat Sep 4 09:04:45 1993 Replied: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 22:36:10 -0400 Replied: "gary@plan9.cs.su.oz.au (Gary Capell) " Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!gary Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2535>; Sat, 4 Sep 1993 09:19:00 -0400 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292033>; Sat, 4 Sep 1993 09:19:50 -0400 Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1993 09:04:45 -0400 From: gary@plan9.cs.su.oz.au (Gary Capell) To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Subject: /dev/audio format? Message-Id: <93Sep4.091950edt.292033@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Should there be a standard format for files that can be cat'ed to /dev/audio? Pros: it would seem nice to be able to simply cat file >/dev/audio no matter what terminal I'm using. Cons: Picking some standard format locks us in to either keeping redundant info, or throwing potentially useful info away, as different machines have different capabilities (8bit, 16bit, mono/stereo). Any ideas? The question is burning as I've got a SPARC and a 486 sitting here which have incompatible /dev/audios, and that doesn't seem right for Plan 9. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Sep 16 06:04:32 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2537>; Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:16:35 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292486>; Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:01:49 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 06:04:32 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: optical storage i've been experimenting with the plan 9 file server's dump system using the pseudo-worm on some scsi discs. it's invaluable (and good for demonstrations). i'd like to know how much it would cost to upgrade to provide file service on optical disc. the users currently have about 2 to 3 Gb of data. which optical drives (especially jukeboxes) have people tried with plan 9, and how much do they cost? ideally, i'd like one that stores more than 1Gb per platter and 11Gb per jukebox, to allow for expansion, but i'd be interested in any and all answers! From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!medizin.uni-ulm.de!Thomas.Nau Fri Oct 1 02:00:35 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!medizin.uni-ulm.de!Thomas.Nau Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2537>; Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:01:17 -0400 Received: from struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de ([134.60.79.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291912>; Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:00:47 -0400 Received: by struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de id AA24211 (5.65+/IDA-1.4.4); Fri, 1 Oct 93 07:00:36 +0100 From: Thomas Nau Message-Id: <9310010600.AA24211@struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de> Subject: support for Adaptex 1542B/C To: plan9-fans-request@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1993 02:00:35 -0400 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.30] Howdy netters, does anyone know if the Plan 9 kernel for PC hardware supports the Adaptex 1542B/C SCSI controlleres? If no, has anyone written a driver ? Thanks Thomas ********************************************************************** Thomas Nau (Thomas.Nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de, nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de) Departement of Anaesthesia, University of Ulm, Germany think about 42 and DONT PANIC ********************************************************************** From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!medizin.uni-ulm.de!Thomas.Nau Wed Oct 20 02:58:42 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!medizin.uni-ulm.de!Thomas.Nau Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:59:40 -0400 Received: from struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de ([134.60.79.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291785>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:59:03 -0400 Received: by struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de id AA04735 (5.65+/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 20 Oct 93 07:58:42 +0100 From: Thomas Nau Message-Id: <9310200658.AA04735@struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de> Subject: access to cdrom from PC To: plan9-fans-request@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:58:42 -0400 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Hi, I would like to install Plan 9 from a cdrom mounted on our UNIX host. The problem is that every filename. Is there a way to copy files from the CD to the 386 (using mkfs ...) without having a Plan 9 fileserver ? regards Thomas ********************************************************************** Thomas Nau (Thomas.Nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de, nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de) Departement of Anaesthesia, University of Ulm, Germany think about 42 and DONT PANIC ********************************************************************** From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Wed Oct 20 12:43:40 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 12:52:07 -0400 Received: from guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.117]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292263>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 12:44:02 -0400 Received: by guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA19115; Wed, 20 Oct 93 09:43:40 -0700 From: Jerry Kent Rayome Message-Id: <9310201643.AA19115@guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Who is this "none" character? To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 12:43:40 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Greetings! We are running plan9 on both pc and sparc machines. We also have a cpu server (sparc) up and running. When the cpu server is running, a "who" on the file server, will show that both "adm" and "bootes" are running. Fine. Frequently, this same inquirery will show "none" and "adm"! When this happens, the distributed system is *very* sluggish. We have to reboot the cpu server to get rid of "none". What is happening? What is the significance of "none". Why does it take over bootes' place? We believe that an error from the an ethernet card may cause this. What is the reason for having "none" run at all? Thanks in advance for any info. ___________________________________________________________________ Jerry Rayome: Struggling graduate student in Computer Science. * *"Everything is possible, unless the file server crashes. Then, * nothing is possible!" - Myself ___________________________________________________________________ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Oct 20 18:45:53 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:56:58 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293709>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:46:19 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:46:12 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:45:53 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Oct20.184612edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!medizin.uni-ulm.de!Thomas.Nau Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:59:40 -0400 Received: from struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de ([134.60.79.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291785>; Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:59:03 -0400 Received: by struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de id AA04735 (5.65+/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 20 Oct 93 07:58:42 +0100 From: Thomas Nau Message-Id: <9310200658.AA04735@struppi.medizin.uni-ulm.de> Subject: access to cdrom from PC To: plan9-fans-request@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 02:58:42 -0400 Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Hi, I would like to install Plan 9 from a cdrom mounted on our UNIX host. The problem is that every filename. Is there a way to copy files from the CD to the 386 (using mkfs ...) without having a Plan 9 fileserver ? regards Thomas ********************************************************************** Thomas Nau (Thomas.Nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de, nau@medizin.uni-ulm.de) Departement of Anaesthesia, University of Ulm, Germany think about 42 and DONT PANIC ********************************************************************** ------- End of Forwarded Message From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Thu Oct 21 02:14:36 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 02:22:46 -0400 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292151>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 02:15:35 -0400 Received: from tmx.mhs.oz.au by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from boyd for plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 16:15:19 +1000 From: Boyd Roberts Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 02:14:36 -0400 To: Jerry Kent Rayome , plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Who is this "none" character? In-Reply-To: <9310201643.AA19115@guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu> Message-ID: <199310211614.22689.9.babib@mhs.oz.au> none is G.R. Emlin in diguise. From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!philw Thu Oct 21 13:39:42 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!philw Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:22:37 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294339>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:22:29 -0400 From: philw@research.att.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 13:39:42 -0400 To: plan9-fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Oct21.172229edt.294339@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >We are running plan9 on both pc and sparc machines. We also have >a cpu server (sparc) up and running. When the cpu server is running, >a "who" on the file server, will show that both "adm" and "bootes" are >running. Fine. Frequently, this same inquirery will show >"none" and "adm"! When this happens, the distributed system is *very* >sluggish. We have to reboot the cpu server to get rid of "none". Next time it happens mail me a stack strace of the process by using db. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 18:31:02 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 18:39:54 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294366>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 18:31:37 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 18:31:24 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: wayward mail Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 18:31:02 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Oct21.183124edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Lots of messages intended for 9fans seem to be coming to 9fans-request. Does upas reply to the "From " envelope instead of the "From: " header for some reason? ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!research.att.com!philw Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:22:37 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294339>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:22:29 -0400 From: philw@research.att.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 13:39:42 -0400 To: plan9-fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Oct21.172229edt.294339@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >We are running plan9 on both pc and sparc machines. We also have >a cpu server (sparc) up and running. When the cpu server is running, >a "who" on the file server, will show that both "adm" and "bootes" are >running. Fine. Frequently, this same inquirery will show >"none" and "adm"! When this happens, the distributed system is *very* >sluggish. We have to reboot the cpu server to get rid of "none". Next time it happens mail me a stack strace of the process by using db. ------- End of Forwarded Message From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 19:39:18 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 19:49:55 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294391>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 19:41:33 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 19:39:18 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Oct21.194133edt.294391@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> not quite... upas uses the SMTP information, not the message contents, as i think it should. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 20:06:15 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:12:14 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294393>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:06:43 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:06:27 -0400 To: rob@research.att.com cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 1993 19:39:18 EDT." <93Oct21.194133edt.294391@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:06:15 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Oct21.200627edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | not quite... upas uses the SMTP information, not the message contents, | as i think it should. Well, ok, but the local postmasters tell me that the internet conventions are otherwise. From alw.nih.gov!weisen Thu Oct 21 22:45:45 1993 Return-Path: alw.nih.gov!weisen Received: from daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov ([128.231.129.209]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (weisen@localhost) by daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov (ALPHA-6.58/6.28) id WAA20626; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199310220245.WAA20626@daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov> To: Scott Schwartz cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:06:15 EDT." <93Oct21.200627edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: MH [6.8+MIME] Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:45 -0400 From: Neil Weisenfeld In message <93Oct21.200627edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu>, Scott Schwartz writes: > > | not quite... upas uses the SMTP information, not the message contents, > | as i think it should. > > Well, ok, but the local postmasters tell me that the internet > conventions are otherwise. I don't have RFC821 in front of me, but (unless I'm confused) it indicates that the SMTP envelope address may be different than the sender's address (and the sender's address is where one would presumably want a reply to go). The example that the RFC cites is a special mailbox where errors are to be sent could be used as the envelope address (e.g. the mailing list administrator's address). I think that your sysadmins are right: the UA should reply to the From: address stored within the message. I think that RFC821 specifies other headers that can be used, too, such as Reply-To:. Regards, Neil From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 22:45:45 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:49:56 -0400 Received: from daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov ([128.231.129.209]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294436>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:46:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (weisen@localhost) by daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov (ALPHA-6.58/6.28) id WAA20626; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199310220245.WAA20626@daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov> To: Scott Schwartz cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:06:15 EDT." <93Oct21.200627edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: MH [6.8+MIME] Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:45 -0400 From: Neil Weisenfeld In message <93Oct21.200627edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu>, Scott Schwartz writes: > > | not quite... upas uses the SMTP information, not the message contents, > | as i think it should. > > Well, ok, but the local postmasters tell me that the internet > conventions are otherwise. I don't have RFC821 in front of me, but (unless I'm confused) it indicates that the SMTP envelope address may be different than the sender's address (and the sender's address is where one would presumably want a reply to go). The example that the RFC cites is a special mailbox where errors are to be sent could be used as the envelope address (e.g. the mailing list administrator's address). I think that your sysadmins are right: the UA should reply to the From: address stored within the message. I think that RFC821 specifies other headers that can be used, too, such as Reply-To:. Regards, Neil From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 23:05:29 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:08:44 -0400 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294435>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:05:59 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:05:43 -0400 To: Neil Weisenfeld cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Oct 1993 22:45:45 EDT." <199310220245.WAA20626@daedalus.dcrt.nih.gov> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:05:29 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Oct21.230543edt.2516@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | The example that the RFC cites is a special mailbox where errors are | to be sent could be used as the envelope address (e.g. the mailing | list administrator's address). That's exactly what we do. | I think that your sysadmins are right: the UA should reply to the From: | address stored within the message. I think that RFC821 specifies other | headers that can be used, too, such as Reply-To:. RFC 822 says that. See sections 4.3.1 and 4.4.4. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 23:12:11 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:19:45 -0400 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294437>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:12:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:12:11 -0400 From: David Hogan To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: wayward mail Message-Id: <93Oct21.231235edt.294437@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> > From: Scott Schwartz > > | not quite... upas uses the SMTP information, not the message contents, > | as i think it should. > > Well, ok, but the local postmasters tell me that the internet > conventions are otherwise. Indeed they are. On the internet, all mail messages are supposed to be formatted according to rfc-822, with the headers indicating who the actual sender and recipient(s) are. The SMTP information (aka envelope) is part of the delivery mechanism, usually derived from those headers, but not necessarily equivalent to them. In particular, when a mailing list expander receives some mail, say to 9fans@cse.psu.edu, it sends out an essentially identical piece of mail (same rfc-822 From and To headers) but with a different SMTP envelope: the envelope sender becomes an alias for the maintainer of the list (9fans-request@cse.psu.edu), and the recipients are the members of the list. This is good, because bounces go back to the list maintainer (who is most likely to be able to do something about them) but replies go to the list and/or the original sender, depending on the behaviour of the user agent (and the user driving it). The difference between the rfc-822 headers and the envelope is also used to ensure that a bounce doesn't generate another bounce, which could lead to loops, by having the mail software use a null envelope sender when it sends the bounce message. I understand that at Bell Labs the mail conventions are quite different (and in fact much simpler). The contents of a mail message are unformatted (ie no rfc-822 or anything) and are deposited in your mailbox with a single From line prepended, which will be the SMTP envelope sender if the mail arrived via SMTP. The mail user agent (upas/edmail) replies to the address in the From line (it doesn't have much choice :-). Unfortunately, these two sets of mail conventions aren't always compatible, and in particular they break down when internet mailing lists are involved. I have to say that I prefer rfc-822, since (amongst other things) it lets you know who the _other_ recipients of the message were (assuming the sender wanted you to know this :-) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Oct 21 23:30:27 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2516>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:38:01 -0400 Received: from research.att.com ([192.20.225.3]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294440>; Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:32:07 -0400 From: rob@research.att.com Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:30:27 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Oct21.233207edt.294440@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> all right all right all right! i should know better than to say anything about the contents of RFC's without checking first, but i was trying to avoid bothering my local mail expert. so much for good intentions. i will consider changing the local mail programs (there are two here) to reply to Reply-To if it exists, but i won't enjoy doing it. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Oct 22 08:41:05 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:25:38 -0400 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292644>; Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:10:53 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:41:05 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: From addresses and upas there might be a compromise. we went through this here some time ago with an implementation of the smtp part of upas as mangled by System V.4 and somewhat unmangled by me. it seems to be sufficient to have the smtpd pick the right name to put in the Unix `From ' header. since it has already cracked the header and knows RFC822, it's a fairly simple change. it takes the `From ' address from the first of Reply-to:, From:, Sender: and SMTP FROM:. errors go to the SMTP FROM:. (there should never be a Sender: without a From: but we get junk mail from some machines.) the Reply command in the mail reader just uses the `From ' address, and needn't mess with the Wilt . (the Stilt) crud unless it wants to. i didn't understand the recent discussion until i realised that my From lines were being built as described by our Unix machine before being sent to me on Plan 9, and that's why my replies were going to the right address. it also makes the seemail face list more interesting. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 14:10:56 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:32:52 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292811>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:19:09 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:11:07 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: sparc fileservers Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:10:56 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Nov1.141107est.2538@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Greetings, The installation instructions mention that the fileserver code probably won't work on anything other than a sparcstation 2. Has anyone tried bringing it up on an IPC or SLC or something like that? -- Scott From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 14:33:26 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:00:26 -0500 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292817>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:38:10 -0500 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu by burdell.cc.gatech.edu with SMTP id AA28490 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>); Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:33:29 -0500 Received: by penfold.cc.gatech.edu id AA17735 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:33:27 -0500 From: Arnold Robbins Message-Id: <199311011933.AA17735@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:33:26 -0500 In-Reply-To: Scott Schwartz's 21-line message on Nov 1, 2:10pm X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers Heck, can any of the plan 9 stuff run on the newer sparcs like the LX, or the big MPs like the 690 or sparc center 1000 and 2000? (Junk Solaris for a real OS... :-) Arnold From cs.arizona.edu!jdavis Mon Nov 1 14:36:04 1993 Return-Path: cs.arizona.edu!jdavis Received: from optima.CS.Arizona.EDU ([192.12.69.5]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:38:24 -0500 Received: from wolf.CS.Arizona.EDU by optima.CS.Arizona.EDU (5.65c/15) via SMTP id AA26867; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:37:42 MST Received: by wolf.cs.arizona.edu; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:37:41 MST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:36:04 -0500 From: Jim Davis Subject: Re: sparc fileservers To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: <93Nov1.141107est.2538@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Nov 1993, Scott Schwartz wrote: > The installation instructions mention that the fileserver code probably > won't work on anything other than a sparcstation 2. Has anyone tried > bringing it up on an IPC or SLC or something like that? Tried it on my IPC, but it just hung after the download stage. -- Jim Davis | "So here I am, not being entertained." jdavis@cs.arizona.edu | -- Calvin From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 14:36:04 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:00:25 -0500 Received: from optima.CS.Arizona.EDU ([192.12.69.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292854>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:45:38 -0500 Received: from wolf.CS.Arizona.EDU by optima.CS.Arizona.EDU (5.65c/15) via SMTP id AA26867; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:37:42 MST Received: by wolf.cs.arizona.edu; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 12:37:41 MST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:36:04 -0500 From: Jim Davis Subject: Re: sparc fileservers To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: <93Nov1.141107est.2538@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 1 Nov 1993, Scott Schwartz wrote: > The installation instructions mention that the fileserver code probably > won't work on anything other than a sparcstation 2. Has anyone tried > bringing it up on an IPC or SLC or something like that? Tried it on my IPC, but it just hung after the download stage. -- Jim Davis | "So here I am, not being entertained." jdavis@cs.arizona.edu | -- Calvin From cse.ucsc.edu!dlong Mon Nov 1 17:06:51 1993 Return-Path: cse.ucsc.edu!dlong Received: from oak.cse.ucsc.edu ([128.114.24.63]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:05:49 -0500 Received: by oak.cse.ucsc.edu id AA09476 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:06:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:06:51 -0500 From: "Dean R. E. Long" Message-Id: <199311012206.AA09476@oak.cse.ucsc.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers > Greetings, > > The installation instructions mention that the fileserver code probably > won't work on anything other than a sparcstation 2. Has anyone tried > bringing it up on an IPC or SLC or something like that? > > -- Scott Yes, it should work on an IPC or SLC. We currently use an IPC as the fileserver here. You need the patches that were sent out a while back, however, for it to work. dl From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 17:06:51 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:17:22 -0500 Received: from oak.cse.ucsc.edu ([128.114.24.63]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293323>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:05:17 -0500 Received: by oak.cse.ucsc.edu id AA09476 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 1993 14:06:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:06:51 -0500 From: "Dean R. E. Long" Message-Id: <199311012206.AA09476@oak.cse.ucsc.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers > Greetings, > > The installation instructions mention that the fileserver code probably > won't work on anything other than a sparcstation 2. Has anyone tried > bringing it up on an IPC or SLC or something like that? > > -- Scott Yes, it should work on an IPC or SLC. We currently use an IPC as the fileserver here. You need the patches that were sent out a while back, however, for it to work. dl From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 17:56:23 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:11:03 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293620>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:56:45 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:56:29 -0500 To: "Dean R. E. Long" cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Nov 1993 17:06:51 EST." <199311012206.AA09476@oak.cse.ucsc.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 17:56:23 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Nov1.175629est.2625@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | Yes, it should work on an IPC or SLC. We currently use an IPC as the | fileserver here. You need the patches that were sent out a while back, | however, for it to work. The catch, of course, is that one needs a working system in order to install the patches. :-) Thanks for the reply. From skinner.cs.uoregon.edu!mike Mon Nov 1 18:27:46 1993 Return-Path: skinner.cs.uoregon.edu!mike Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:27:34 -0500 Received: from foobar.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA05640 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 93 15:27:18 -0800 Message-Id: <9311012327.AA05640@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> Received: by foobar.cs.uoregon.edu (5.0/UofO CS 25-Oct-93) id AA05232; Mon, 1 Nov 93 15:27:47 PST To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:27:46 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Content-Length: 1029 >| Yes, it should work on an IPC or SLC. We currently use an IPC as the >| fileserver here. You need the patches that were sent out a while back, >| however, for it to work. > >The catch, of course, is that one needs a working system in order to >install the patches. :-) Not so. You need a working Plan 9 terminal, but not necessarily a working file server. You can boot the terminal kernel directly off the Plan 9 cdrom. Set up a unix based file server (using u9fs) on some machine with lots of disk. Mount the Unix system somewhere in the heirarchy (e.g., /n/kremvax is included as a possible mountpoint on the cdrom.) Copy the kernel sources to the Unix server. Modify them according to the patches. Compile, and build. In fact, we have Plan 9 running here at UO using only the Unix based file server, since right now there are no spare machines to dedicate a Plan 9 file server. Note that there were a few bugs in u9fs as originally distributed, but Rob sent some patches out around March or April for fixing them. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 18:27:46 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:46:06 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293636>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:27:49 -0500 Received: from foobar.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA05640 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 93 15:27:18 -0800 Message-Id: <9311012327.AA05640@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> Received: by foobar.cs.uoregon.edu (5.0/UofO CS 25-Oct-93) id AA05232; Mon, 1 Nov 93 15:27:47 PST To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 18:27:46 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Content-Length: 1029 >| Yes, it should work on an IPC or SLC. We currently use an IPC as the >| fileserver here. You need the patches that were sent out a while back, >| however, for it to work. > >The catch, of course, is that one needs a working system in order to >install the patches. :-) Not so. You need a working Plan 9 terminal, but not necessarily a working file server. You can boot the terminal kernel directly off the Plan 9 cdrom. Set up a unix based file server (using u9fs) on some machine with lots of disk. Mount the Unix system somewhere in the heirarchy (e.g., /n/kremvax is included as a possible mountpoint on the cdrom.) Copy the kernel sources to the Unix server. Modify them according to the patches. Compile, and build. In fact, we have Plan 9 running here at UO using only the Unix based file server, since right now there are no spare machines to dedicate a Plan 9 file server. Note that there were a few bugs in u9fs as originally distributed, but Rob sent some patches out around March or April for fixing them. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 23:02:58 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:12:47 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293782>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:03:32 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:03:12 -0500 To: Mike Haertel cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Nov 1993 18:27:46 EST." <9311012327.AA05640@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:02:58 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Nov1.230312est.2580@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | In fact, we have Plan 9 running here at UO using only the Unix | based file server, since right now there are no spare machines | to dedicate a Plan 9 file server. That's more or less our situation as well. In a previous message you said that you were running with hacked sources and lots of things didn't work. I'm interested in hearing more about what you've done and how things are working out these days. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 23:26:08 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2580>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:50:48 -0500 Received: from epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu ([129.105.5.104]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293808>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:37:12 -0500 Received: from eden.eecs.nwu.edu by epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0-proxy) id AA17938; Mon, 1 Nov 93 22:34:18 CST From: quanstro@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Erik Quanstrom) Received: by eden.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/client-1.5) id AA11416; Mon, 1 Nov 93 22:26:08 CST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:26:08 -0500 Message-Id: <9311020426.AA11416@eden.eecs.nwu.edu> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: standalone plan9 Apparently-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu i know that rob et. al. were spotted at a recent usenix conference sporting [34]86 laptops (or so i've heard). so i'd like to know o is this included on the cd? o is anybody using this o this implies that the laptop is running the fileserver, cpuserver and terminal software. is this possible to pull off on a sun or sgi? erik From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Nov 1 23:32:30 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:50:49 -0500 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293797>; Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:33:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:32:30 -0500 From: David Hogan To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers Message-Id: <93Nov1.233328est.293797@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> > From: Arnold Robbins > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > > Heck, can any of the plan 9 stuff run on the newer sparcs like the LX, > or the big MPs like the 690 or sparc center 1000 and 2000? (Junk Solaris > for a real OS... :-) Not without rewriting mmu.c. I understand that the mmu in the newer sparcs is based on the Sparc Reference mmu, whereas the mmu in the older sparcs is a lot closer to the Sun 3 mmu. I've also heard that the dma controller is different. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Nov 2 00:51:19 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 01:05:50 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291779>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 00:51:38 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA08523 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 1 Nov 93 21:51:22 -0800 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA14349; Mon, 1 Nov 93 21:51:20 PST Message-Id: <9311020551.AA14349@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: quanstro@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Erik Quanstrom) Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: standalone plan9 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 00:51:19 -0500 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu >i know that rob et. al. were spotted at a recent usenix >conference sporting [34]86 laptops (or so i've heard). >so i'd like to know >o is this included on the cd? Yes. >o is anybody using this Yes; I have it running on a 486 box. >o this implies that the laptop is running the > fileserver, cpuserver and terminal software. No. It is just running the terminal software. The "file server" in this case is just an ordinary user level process that speaks 9P to the kernel and maintains a file system on a raw disk partition. It's slow, and according to the documentation, susceptible to crashes, although I haven't had any (yet). There is no need for a cpu server to run Plan 9, unless you want to run daemons that accept calls from the outside world, for instance for mail delivery or remote logins. There is no real difference between a terminal and a cpu server; a cpu server is essentially the same kernel with a different startup script that starts various daemons. The file server is a radically different kernel and cannot coexist on the same machine with the terminal or cpu kernels. However, you don't need to use the standard file server. >Is this > possible to pull off on a sun or sgi? Of course. However, it is not supported in the system as distributed; you have to do a bit of work... From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Nov 2 04:14:18 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:48:14 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292426>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:37:31 -0500 Received: from sarad.cs.su.oz.au by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from bob for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 02 Nov 1993 22:37:12 +1100 Received: by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU with postie; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 22:37:09 +1100 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 04:14:18 -0500 From: bob@cs.su.oz.au (Bob Kummerfeld) Subject: standalone plan9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Nov2.063731est.292426@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> From: quanstro@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Erik Quanstrom) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1993 23:26:08 -0500 To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: standalone plan9 i know that rob et. al. were spotted at a recent usenix conference sporting [34]86 laptops (or so i've heard). so i'd like to know o is this included on the cd? yes o is anybody using this yes o this implies that the laptop is running the fileserver, cpuserver and terminal software. is this possible to pull off on a sun or sgi? yes The cpu & terminal server versions of Plan9 are essentially the same. You can have a local disk on your terminal and run kfs to get local files. We have done this with a Sun 3/50 with 70meg disk. I have a Compaq LTE/25E laptop. This is has a full 486 (low power version), 12meg memory, 209meg disk, ethernet, serial, parallel and PS/2 mouse port. It also has an active matrix mono screen that is excellent - it added $AUS2k to the price :-( I chose the machine after a long evaluation of the contenders and the choice was based mainly on the screen quality. I have a small DOS partition on the hard disk and the rest is for plan 9 using kfs for the files. It was learning experience to configure the system that I recommend - not difficult but lots of "ah ha!". I now understand the system much better. I carry the machine in to work, plug into the ethernet and then can mount our main file server and cpu to our main cpu server. I attended INET93 and Interop in San Francisco a month or so ago and was able to plug into the ethernet in the terminal room and use it *exactly* as if I was in my office at home in Australia: mounting the file server, running cpu etc! Bob From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Tue Nov 2 06:33:05 1993 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:37:43 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292424>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:37:22 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 02 Nov 1993 22:37:08 +1100 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:33:05 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: standalone plan9 To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Nov2.063722est.292424@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> I am using a desktop PC as a standalone plan 9 machine a lot of the time now. The file system it uses is kfs (ken's file system) which I think is on the distribution. It's pretty neat, with 486/66, 8M I get a reasonably useful system for software dev., and I use SLIP/carrying floppies to stay consistent with our usual file server. (I'm writing this from home, btw). I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to do similar with a sun or sgi, it's just that for portables, the x86 machines are cheaper, more likely to be at home. Cheers, Gary. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Nov 2 06:41:23 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2563>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:50:45 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292459>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:44:01 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 02 Nov 1993 22:42:39 +1100 Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 06:41:23 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: standalone plan9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <93Nov2.064401est.292459@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> I am using a desktop PC as a standalone plan 9 machine a lot of the time now. The file system it uses is kfs (ken's file system) which I think is on the distribution. It's pretty neat, with 486/66, 8M I get a reasonably useful system for software dev., and I use SLIP/carrying floppies to stay consistent with our usual file server. (I'm writing this from home, btw). I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to do similar with a sun or sgi, it's just that for portables, the x86 machines are cheaper, more likely to be at home. Cheers, Gary. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Nov 2 14:25:32 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:51:35 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293284>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:27:14 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:25:45 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: can't open nvram? Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:25:32 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <93Nov2.142545est.2625@groucho.cse.psu.edu> I've gotten as far as page 8 of the installation instructions, running the terminal on a sparc SLC and the fileserver on a sparc2, and I see the following: term% auth/wrkey Password: Confirm password: auth/wrkey: can't open nvram term% That sounds bad. Now what? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Nov 2 19:36:36 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:45:36 -0500 Received: from chalmers.se ([129.16.1.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294000>; Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:37:09 -0500 Received: from hackes.dtek.chalmers.se by chalmers.se (5.60+IDA/3.14+gl) id AA00289; Wed, 3 Nov 93 01:36:48 +0100 From: Stefan Axelsson Message-Id: <9311030036.AA14519@hackes.dtek.chalmers.se> Received: from hacke3.dtek.chalmers.se by hackes.dtek.chalmers.se (5.59+IDA+CTH/3.14+gl) id AA14519; Wed, 3 Nov 93 01:36:46 +0100 Received: by hacke3.dtek.chalmers.se (5.59+IDA+CTH/3.14+gl) id AA17778; Wed, 3 Nov 93 01:36:38 +0100 Subject: Re: can't open nvram? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 19:36:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: <93Nov2.142545est.2625@groucho.cse.psu.edu> from "Scott Schwartz" at Nov 2, 93 02:25:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 885 Scott Schwartz writes: > > I've gotten as far as page 8 of the installation instructions, > running the terminal on a sparc SLC and the fileserver on a > sparc2, and I see the following: > > term% auth/wrkey > Password: > Confirm password: > auth/wrkey: can't open nvram > term% > > That sounds bad. Now what? > I had exactly the same problem, to the rescue came Dave Presotto (Thanks again Dave). The terminal doesn't ever read the nvram, you have to boot the cpu-server "/sparc/9sscpu" instead. This will give you some error messages, but you can ignore them. Then proceed as per the instructions. I could mail you the rest of the help we got from Dave Presotto, if you're interested. There were a few other problems as I remember it. Mainly dealing with authentication. Regards, -- Stefan Axelsson, Chalmers University of Technology, d7stfax@dtek.chalmers.se Sweden From majestix.cs.uoregon.edu!mike Wed Nov 3 02:28:08 1993 Return-Path: majestix.cs.uoregon.edu!mike Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 02:28:32 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA21144 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu); Tue, 2 Nov 93 23:28:11 -0800 Received: from localhost.cs.uoregon.edu by majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (4.1/UofO CS 27-Mar-91) id AA16134; Tue, 2 Nov 93 23:28:09 PST Message-Id: <9311030728.AA16134@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu> To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: sparc fileservers Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 02:28:08 -0500 From: mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu >| In fact, we have Plan 9 running here at UO using only the Unix >| based file server, since right now there are no spare machines >| to dedicate a Plan 9 file server. > >That's more or less our situation as well. In a previous message you >said that you were running with hacked sources and lots of things >didn't work. I'm interested in hearing more about what you've done and >how things are working out these days. Well, since several people have asked, I've included our diffs (with explanations) to u9fs at the end of this message. Note that they are not quite the same as the Bell Labs diffs that Rob mailed out awhile back--I had already discovered and fixed some of the problems independently. Most things I've tried seem to work Ok; the exception is the postscript interpreter psi, which crashes for me on both the Sparc and the 68020, in apparently the same way. I have not put any deep debugging effort into it. Also, psi worked fine when I tried it on a 486 using kfs. So I suspect psi may be interacting with u9fs in some strange way. As for how I originally got Plan 9 up and working on a sparc without a fileserver and without bootp, roughly: 0. compiled u9fs on some convenient unix box; install in inetd.conf. contrary to the README in the u9fs source directory, plan 9 expects to find u9fs on port 564 (see /lib/ndb/local on the cdrom). 1. boot plan9 off the cdrom i actually put the sparc/9sscd kernel in the SunOS root directory and used "b sd()9sscd". 2. manually configure the network with ipconfig 3. use "srv tcp!1.2.3.4" and then "mount -c /srv/tcp!1.2.3.4 /n/kremvax" to get the Unix system mounted on /n/kremvax. used /n/kremvax as a scratch area to build a modified kernel. 4. the kernel sources are in /sys/src/9. i looked at /sys/src/9/boot/ip.c, which uses bootp to get various information, and used it as a prototype for a new boot method which asks the user to manually enter all that information. then, i used the "/sys/src/9/ss/sscd" configuration as a prototype to create a new "ssuo" configuration, and built my modified kernel with "mk 'CONF=ssuo'" in the ss/ directory. Disclaimer: as with all free advice, this is worth what it cost. These things worked for me, but I didn't keep notes and so this is all from 6-month-old memory. Similar disclaimer applies to the u9fs diffs below. Here are our patches for u9fs; they do the following things: * fix a bug in the handling of seek offsets * set the qid.version field from the stat.st_mtime field, rathern than 0. this makes executable caching work correctly. * hacks to increase the descriptor table size limit under SunOS (#define DTABLE) and Dynix/PTX (#define SETDTABLESIZE). this is important since plan 9 keeps open file descriptors to recently used executables, and without this change u9fs quickly runs out of descriptors. * a hack to make u9fs work correctly with the Dynix/PTX inetd, and perhaps other System V.3 implementations as well (#define TIRDWR). * a hack to make Plan 9 systems get the right system date when booting. Plan 9 gets the system date from the access time of "/". therefore, we read "/" before accepting any requests from the remote Plan 9. * implement the ORCLOSE remove-on-close option used by Plan 9 programs that create temporary files. diff -rc2 dist/u9fs.c u9fs.c *** dist/u9fs.c Sat Mar 20 04:34:51 1993 --- u9fs.c Sun Apr 18 15:58:48 1993 *************** *** 8,11 **** --- 8,18 ---- #include "pwd.h" #include "grp.h" + #ifdef TIRDWR + #include + #endif + #ifdef DTABLE + #include + #include + #endif #define DBG(f) *************** *** 37,40 **** --- 44,48 ---- int fd; DIR *dir; + int tempf; }; *************** *** 132,135 **** --- 140,159 ---- main(int argc, char *argv[]) { + #ifdef TIRDWR + ioctl(0, I_PUSH, "tirdwr"); + #endif + #ifdef SETDTABLESIZE + setdtablesize(256); + #endif + #if defined(DTABLE) && defined(RLIMIT_NOFILE) + { + struct rlimit rl; + getrlimit(RLIMIT_NOFILE, &rl); + rl.rlim_cur = rl.rlim_max; + if (rl.rlim_cur > 1024) + rl.rlim_cur = 1024; + setrlimit(RLIMIT_NOFILE, &rl); + } + #endif freopen(LOG, "a", stderr); setbuf(stderr, (void*)0); *************** *** 243,246 **** --- 267,281 ---- Pass *p; + /* + * The following hack will force Plan 9 to get the right + * system date when we are booting off a Unix server. + */ + { + DIR *dp; + dp = opendir("/"); + readdir(dp); + closedir(dp); + } + err = 0; if(file0 == 0){ *************** *** 343,347 **** int fd; DIR *dir; ! int m, trunc; rf = rfilefid(); --- 378,382 ---- int fd; DIR *dir; ! int m, trunc, tempf; rf = rfilefid(); *************** *** 353,356 **** --- 388,392 ---- m = rhdr.mode & (16|3); trunc = m & 16; /* OTRUNC */ + tempf = rhdr.mode & 64; /* ORCLOSE */ switch(m){ case 0: *************** *** 402,405 **** --- 438,442 ---- rf->fd->dir = dir; rf->fd->offset = 0; + rf->fd->tempf = tempf; thdr.qid = f->qid; } *************** *** 411,415 **** File *f, *of; char *path, *err; ! int fd; int m; char name[NAMELEN]; --- 448,452 ---- File *f, *of; char *path, *err; ! int fd, tempf; int m; char name[NAMELEN]; *************** *** 421,424 **** --- 458,462 ---- path = bldpath(rf->file->path, rhdr.name, name); m = omode(rhdr.mode&3); + tempf = rhdr.mode & 64; /* ORCLOSE */ errno = 0; if(rhdr.perm & CHDIR){ *************** *** 479,482 **** --- 517,521 ---- rf->fd->dir = 0; rf->fd->offset = 0; + rf->fd->tempf = tempf; thdr.qid = f->qid; } *************** *** 535,539 **** strncpy(d.gid, id2name(gid, stbuf.st_gid), NAMELEN); d.qid.path = qid(&stbuf); ! d.qid.vers = 0; d.mode = (d.qid.path&CHDIR)|(stbuf.st_mode&0777); d.atime = stbuf.st_atime; --- 574,578 ---- strncpy(d.gid, id2name(gid, stbuf.st_gid), NAMELEN); d.qid.path = qid(&stbuf); ! d.qid.vers = stbuf.st_mtime; d.mode = (d.qid.path&CHDIR)|(stbuf.st_mode&0777); d.atime = stbuf.st_atime; *************** *** 546,552 **** }else{ errno = 0; ! if(rf->fd->offset != rhdr.offset) if(lseek(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.offset, 0) < 0) errjmp(sys_errlist[errno]); n = read(rf->fd->fd, rdata, rhdr.count); if(n < 0) --- 585,593 ---- }else{ errno = 0; ! if(rf->fd->offset != rhdr.offset) { if(lseek(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.offset, 0) < 0) errjmp(sys_errlist[errno]); + rf->fd->offset = rhdr.offset; + } n = read(rf->fd->fd, rdata, rhdr.count); if(n < 0) *************** *** 570,576 **** errjmp(Etoolarge); errno = 0; ! if(rf->fd->offset != rhdr.offset) if(lseek(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.offset, 0) < 0) errjmp(sys_errlist[errno]); n = write(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.data, rhdr.count); if(n < 0) --- 611,619 ---- errjmp(Etoolarge); errno = 0; ! if(rf->fd->offset != rhdr.offset) { if(lseek(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.offset, 0) < 0) errjmp(sys_errlist[errno]); + rf->fd->offset = rhdr.offset; + } n = write(rf->fd->fd, rhdr.data, rhdr.count); if(n < 0) *************** *** 688,691 **** --- 731,742 ---- if(fd->dir) closedir(fd->dir); + if (fd->tempf & 64) { /* ORCLOSE */ + if (f->qid.path & CHDIR) + ret = rmdir(f->path); + else + ret = unlink(f->path); + if (ret) + err = sys_errlist[errno]; + } free(fd); } *************** *** 760,764 **** } f->qid.path = qid(&stbuf); ! f->qid.vers = 0; f->stbuf = stbuf; return 0; --- 811,815 ---- } f->qid.path = qid(&stbuf); ! f->qid.vers = stbuf.st_mtime; f->stbuf = stbuf; return 0; From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Nov 3 13:26:16 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:45:01 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292358>; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:26:23 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA25787 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Wed, 3 Nov 93 10:26:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:26:16 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <9311031826.AA25787@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: SLIP has anybody implemented slip for Plan 9? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Nov 3 13:45:32 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:59:33 -0500 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292367>; Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:46:03 -0500 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu by burdell.cc.gatech.edu with SMTP id AA12141 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>); Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:45:34 -0500 Received: by penfold.cc.gatech.edu id AA18992 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:45:32 -0500 From: Arnold Robbins Message-Id: <199311031845.AA18992@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:45:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: Mike Haertel's 16-line message on Nov 3, 1:26pm X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: SLIP > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:26:16 -0500 > From: Mike Haertel > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Subject: SLIP > > has anybody implemented slip for Plan 9? Gosh, doesn't *everyone* have T1 lines to their houses?!? From plan9-fans-owner Thu Nov 18 18:05:35 1993 Return-Path: plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.1.6]) by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <36979>; Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:07:11 -0500 Received: from guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.117]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294142>; Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:06:05 -0500 Received: by guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA02002; Thu, 18 Nov 93 15:05:35 -0800 From: Jerry Kent Rayome Message-Id: <9311182305.AA02002@guzzler.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Restrictions of "delete" command in Plan9 To: plan9-fans Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:05:35 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Status: RO Greetings! We are not using authentication on our Plan 9 system, so we cannot test this ourselves. My question is: With auth enabled, will I still be able to delete any file in the file system using delete from the file server console? We believe that there are ?basically? no restrictions. However, I have been told that the console will only delete files that are owned by adm. This would not seem to make administrative sense. Any responses will be welcomed. Flames are expected, considering this sounds like a trivial question. ************************************************************************** Jerry Rayome: Financially challenged graduate student in Computer Science. "Everything is possible, unless the file server crashes. Then, nothing is possible!" - Myself __________________________________________________________________________ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Dec 6 17:08:55 1993 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:31:10 -0500 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293132>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:11:08 -0500 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu (penfold.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.249]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA23630 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:08:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (arnold@localhost) by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id RAA05950 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:08:56 -0500 From: Arnold Robbins Message-Id: <199312062208.RAA05950@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:08:55 -0500 X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: plan 9 on sparc LX Will Plan 9 run on the sparc LX? Our license paperwork just came through (Yay!), and we have an LX set aside to run it when we get the software.... Thanks, Arnold Robbins --- Continuing Education, College of Computing Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 Phone: +1 404 894 9214 (has voice mail) E-mail: arnold.robbins@cc.gatech.edu FAX: +1 404 853 9378 "He's not dead, he's metaphysically challenged." - Mystery Science Theatre 3000 From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Jan 4 23:15:37 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:29:32 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293371>; Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:16:13 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:15:46 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: 9bof Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:15:37 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Jan4.231546est.2539@groucho.cse.psu.edu> For those who are going to Usenix, want to schedule a birds of a feather session (9bof)? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sat Jan 8 21:18:38 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:25:50 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292606>; Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:19:17 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2625>; Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:18:49 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:18:38 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Jan8.211849est.2625@groucho.cse.psu.edu> It doesn't look like there's much interest in a bof; maybe next time. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sat Jan 8 21:41:21 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2631>; Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:49:23 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292626>; Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:42:31 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:41:21 -0500 Message-Id: <94Jan8.214231est.292626@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> if you want a bof, schedule it and see what happens. i'm a little curious myself. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Jan 13 15:08:14 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Thu, 13 Jan 1994 15:27:51 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294765>; Thu, 13 Jan 1994 15:09:38 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Thu, 13 Jan 1994 15:09:11 -0500 To: rob@plan9.att.com cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jan 1994 21:41:21 EST." <94Jan8.214231est.292626@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Jan13.150911est.2539@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | if you want a bof, schedule it and see what happens. | i'm a little curious myself. Will you guys bring your laptops and have show-and-tell? From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.att.com!philw Thu Jan 13 16:05:41 1994 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.att.com!philw Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Thu, 13 Jan 1994 16:09:54 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294783>; Thu, 13 Jan 1994 16:09:46 -0500 From: philw@plan9.att.com To: <9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 16:05:41 -0500 Message-Id: <94Jan13.160946est.294783@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> We will bring at least two laptops. They both have acme and acid stuff. From cse.psu.edu!schwartz Fri Jan 21 21:34:40 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!schwartz Received: from colossus.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.2]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:22:35 -0500 Received: from localhost by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <37004>; Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:22:26 -0500 Return-Path: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.1.6]) by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <37365>; Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:50:53 -0500 Received: from jamuna.Stanford.EDU ([36.12.0.84]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295034>; Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:34:50 -0500 Received: by jamuna.Stanford.EDU (5.61/25-Robotics-eef) id AA11231; Fri, 21 Jan 94 18:34:40 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:34:40 -0500 From: Sean Quinlan Message-Id: <9401220234.AA11231@jamuna.Stanford.EDU> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Connecting a portable via a serial line. Resent-To: schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:22:12 -0500 Resent-From: Scott Schwartz Resent-Message-Id: <94Jan22.122226est.37004@colossus.cse.psu.edu> I have an old 386 notebook computer I am running plan 9 on. The question I have is how to connect the notebook to the outside world. As the machine is old the only fisable io ports are the serial and parallel ports (I got the machine running plan 9 using floopies). I also have a 486 PC running plan 9 which uses a unix box as the file server. One solution I thought of was using a modem to call a SLIP server, thus getting onto the net. Has anyone done this? Is there code available? Another possible solution might be to connect via a serial line to the 486 machine and some how talk 9P. Again, has anyone done this? Any other ideas? thanks sean quinlan From cse.psu.edu!schwartz Fri Jan 21 21:47:30 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!schwartz Received: from colossus.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.2]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2539>; Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:23:06 -0500 Received: from localhost by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <37003>; Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:22:57 -0500 Return-Path: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.1.6]) by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <37366>; Fri, 21 Jan 1994 22:05:44 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295042>; Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:55:40 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from bob for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Sat, 22 Jan 1994 13:50:32 +1100 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:47:30 -0500 From: bob@joyce.cs.su.oz.au (Bob Kummerfeld) Subject: Re: Connecting a portable via a serial line. To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Jan21.215540est.295042@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Resent-To: schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 12:22:44 -0500 Resent-From: Scott Schwartz Resent-Message-Id: <94Jan22.122257est.37003@colossus.cse.psu.edu> Gary Capel and David Hogan (dhog@cs.su.oz.au) have a slip stream module and it works ok. I have a Compaq laptop with an ethernet card that works very well. Bob. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 12:29:21 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:46:45 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293880>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:29:34 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA03475 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:29:23 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id MAA05821 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:29:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199401261729.MAA05821@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu> Subject: subscribe vijay@umbc.edu To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (plan9) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:29:21 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 175 subscribe vijay@umbc.edu If this makes it to the plan 9 fans, please mail me with appropriate instructions on subscribing to the list. Thank you vijay gill (vijay@umbc.edu) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 13:11:32 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:24:23 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294111>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:11:46 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA04016 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:11:36 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id NAA06035 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:11:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199401261811.NAA06035@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu> Subject: Configuration of a new plan 9 system To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (plan9) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:11:32 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 390 This message has three functions. 1) To see if I got subscribed to the list. So if anyone sees this, mail me back. I don't care if I get flooded, life is slow right about now ;). 2) If you see this, and I am not properly subscribed, please tell me how to go about it. 3) Anyone have any experiences in installing plan 9 on 80386 machines? thanks, vijay gill (vijay@umbc.edu) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 15:06:53 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:26:38 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294289>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:07:01 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA05542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:55 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id PAA06395 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199401262006.PAA06395@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu> Subject: any new documents? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (plan9 plan9_list) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:53 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1158 I have all the old documents including all the dist/plan9docs and the dist/plan9man printed out. These are slightly old to say the least. Then I went to plan9.att.com and via anon-ftp got some more files, which seemed to be newer and more upto date than the ones on research.att.com. These files, however, are in a .ms format, which doesn't seem to be liked by our IRIX nroff -ms. It just prints some sort of format, but it is not very good. What I am interested in is postscript format or straight ascii of these docs. Especially nofileserver.ms - which details how to get a plan 9 system up on a stand alone machine. Any help, pointers, whatever would be appreciated. Also, do any plan 9 sites have a guest login of some sort so I can test it out. I have managed to coerce our faculty into asking for a licence and the CD from ATT ;) so expect to see a new plan 9 system coming up soon at a site near you. Might take a while as I wrangle for a 486 machine with sufficient disk. Can you use rlogin/telnet into a plan 9 system? In short, will it work over a modem/vt100 combo or will I have to set up PPP/SLIP. Go plan9 vijay gill (vijay@umbc.edu) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 15:06:53 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from colossus.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.2]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:48:29 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by colossus.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <37227>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:36:53 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:36:28 -0500 Return-Path: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:26:38 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294289>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:07:01 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA05542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:55 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id PAA06395 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199401262006.PAA06395@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu> Subject: any new documents? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu (plan9 plan9_list) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:06:53 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1158 Resent-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Resent-Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:36:14 -0500 Resent-From: Scott Schwartz Resent-Message-Id: <94Jan26.173628est.3005@groucho.cse.psu.edu> I have all the old documents including all the dist/plan9docs and the dist/plan9man printed out. These are slightly old to say the least. Then I went to plan9.att.com and via anon-ftp got some more files, which seemed to be newer and more upto date than the ones on research.att.com. These files, however, are in a .ms format, which doesn't seem to be liked by our IRIX nroff -ms. It just prints some sort of format, but it is not very good. What I am interested in is postscript format or straight ascii of these docs. Especially nofileserver.ms - which details how to get a plan 9 system up on a stand alone machine. Any help, pointers, whatever would be appreciated. Also, do any plan 9 sites have a guest login of some sort so I can test it out. I have managed to coerce our faculty into asking for a licence and the CD from ATT ;) so expect to see a new plan 9 system coming up soon at a site near you. Might take a while as I wrangle for a 486 machine with sufficient disk. Can you use rlogin/telnet into a plan 9 system? In short, will it work over a modem/vt100 combo or will I have to set up PPP/SLIP. Go plan9 vijay gill (vijay@umbc.edu) From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Wed Jan 26 15:46:38 1994 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:48:24 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294315>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:48:14 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Thu, 27 Jan 1994 07:47:42 +1100 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:46:38 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: Configuration of a new plan 9 system To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Jan26.154814est.294315@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> yup, you're subscribed >3) Anyone have any experiences in installing plan 9 on 80386 machines? I use a (diskless) 386 as a terminal (486 actually), and was using a 486 at home as a standalone. From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Wed Jan 26 15:50:56 1994 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!moria.cs.su.OZ.AU!gary Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:58:40 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294320>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:58:36 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Thu, 27 Jan 1994 07:58:19 +1100 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:50:56 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: any new documents? To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Jan26.155836est.294320@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> will send you postscript version of nofileserver.ms >Can you use rlogin/telnet into a plan 9 system? In short, will it work >over a modem/vt100 combo or will I have to set up PPP/SLIP. Not sure what sort of system you're setting up. If you're running the PC standalone, you work AT the PC. If you're using the PC as a terminal, connected to CPU server/file server, you'd be connected with ethernet. There _is_ a SLIP stream module written here that seems to work, I was using that to connect from home. You won't need a huge amount of disk space, I have a 120M partition for Plan9, and that's heaps, probably 60 would be ample, (but don't quote me on that) (but that's without full source). I've been busy playing with getting it working with a bootp boot prom, and using a Stealth Pro graphics card to get 1600x985 screen (essential or at least very nice for using help) and now have quite an OK terminal. Good luck getting things up and running (afraid I won't be able to help you much there, wasn't involved getting things started here). From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 16:04:43 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:19:00 -0500 Received: from algol.cs.umbc.edu ([130.85.100.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294327>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:05:02 -0500 Received: from fala.cs.umbc.edu by algol.cs.umbc.edu with SMTP id AA17459 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>); Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:04:45 -0500 Received: by fala.cs.umbc.edu id AA27871 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:04:44 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Message-Id: <199401262104.AA27871@fala.cs.umbc.edu> Subject: done with the files To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:04:43 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 94 I have been sent the postscript version of the Poor man's installation file. Thanks. vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Jan 26 17:37:07 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 18:02:04 -0500 Received: from prism.nmt.edu ([129.138.4.216]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294374>; Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:36:01 -0500 Received: from chelm.cs.nmt (chelm.nmt.edu) by prism.nmt.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA23950; Wed, 26 Jan 94 15:35:13 MST Received: by chelm.cs.nmt (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10906; Wed, 26 Jan 94 15:37:08 MST Message-Id: <9401262237.AA10906@chelm.cs.nmt> From: yodaiken@sphinx.nmt.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:37:07 -0500 Reply_To: yodaiken@nmt.edu X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Sparc IPCs Content-Length: 152 Any experience running 9 on an IPC? Any experience booting 9 using a UNIX system as a file server -- we don't have a sparce 600meg disk sitting about. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Jan 27 13:46:50 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Thu, 27 Jan 1994 14:03:21 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293336>; Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:52:32 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:46:50 -0500 Message-Id: <94Jan27.135232est.293336@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> postscript versions of the two papers we presented at the USENIX conference last week are now available by anonymous FTP from research.att.com, directory dist/plan9man. an old version of acid is part of the plan 9 distribution. acme is unobtainable at the moment. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 14:24:22 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:33:31 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294701>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:24:56 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA11706 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:24:22 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:24:22 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <9401281924.AA11706@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: vga settings has anybody got vga configuration files to get any of 1024x768x{1,2,4,8} using either the wd90c31 or ATI mach32? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 16:21:46 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:35:35 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294901>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:22:06 -0500 Received: from rpc03.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc03.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.23]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA28310 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:21:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc03.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id QAA01038; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:21:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:21:46 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: how long does it take for the licence? To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, I just got a letter written up and signed, requesting the plan 9 licence and CD-ROM and am sending it to Neera Kuckreja today. My question is: How long does it take for the licence and CD-ROM to show up? The letter is on the official letterhead, + signed by a faculty member. Would they need anything else? Eg, photocopy of Faculty ID or something? -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 16:49:13 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 17:05:04 -0500 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294912>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:49:23 -0500 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu (penfold.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.249]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA20589; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:49:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (arnold@localhost) by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id QAA06540; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:49:13 -0500 From: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) Message-Id: <199401282149.QAA06540@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:49:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: Vijay Gill's 30-line message on Jan 28, 4:21pm X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: how long does it take for the licence? Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:21:46 -0500 > From: Vijay Gill > Subject: how long does it take for the licence? > To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> > > Ok, I just got a letter written up and signed, requesting the plan 9 > licence and CD-ROM and am sending it to Neera Kuckreja today. > My question is: How long does it take for the licence and CD-ROM > to show up? > The letter is on the official letterhead, + signed by a faculty member. > Would they need anything else? Eg, photocopy of Faculty ID or something? You will get a license form back from AT&T. Your lawyers have to agree to it & someone appropriate in your university will have to sign it. It took ~ 7 months here before things were settled. *After* that, you get the cd & doc pretty quickly. Arnold Robbins --- Continuing Education, College of Computing Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 Phone: +1 404 894 9214 (has voice mail) E-mail: arnold.robbins@cc.gatech.edu FAX: +1 404 853 9378 "I'm just a hitchhiker along the Information Superhighway." -- Me From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 18:37:46 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 18:52:51 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294994>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 18:37:59 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 18:37:47 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: spaces in filenames Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 18:37:46 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Jan28.183747est.3006@groucho.cse.psu.edu> One of the features of plan 9 is that, thanks to unicode, people with non-ascii names can have their real names as their login names. But that isn't the whole story. Some people have spaces in their names. Ursula K. Le Guin should be able to log in as ``Le Guin'', but since ascii space is disallowed in filenames, she couldn't have the right home directory. That's kind of a shame. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 19:01:59 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:07:53 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295012>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:02:23 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:01:59 -0500 Message-Id: <94Jan28.190223est.295012@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> hey, unicode has a gajillion space characters to choose from, and only one of them is disallowed in file names. here are some of the others, from grep space /lib/unicode. get with the program, mon. 00a0 non-breaking space; = iso no-break space; x (space - 0020) 0400 x (non-breaking space - 00a0) 0600 x (non-breaking space - 00a0) 2002 en space 2003 em space 2004 three-per-em space 2005 four-per-em space 2006 six-per-em space 2007 figure space 2008 punctuation space 2009 thin space 200a hair space 200b zero width space 2422 blank; graphic for space; x (latin small letter b bar - 0180) 3000 ideographic space; x (space - 0020) 303f ideographic half fill space From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 19:25:12 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:35:00 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295027>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:25:44 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:25:14 -0500 To: rob@plan9.att.com cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:01:59 EST." <94Jan28.190223est.295012@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Jan28.192514est.2538@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | hey, unicode has a gajillion space characters to choose from, | and only one of them is disallowed in file names. But it is the one that 8.5 connects to my spacebar. :-) | get with the program, mon. Ouch. I know about the funny spaces, but I'm uncertain what the program is. Why doesn't isspace() recognise them, for example? When awk goes to split input into fields, I can see why one might not want it to split on the non-breaking-space or the graphic-for-space, but what about the others? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Jan 28 19:30:19 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:42:47 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295031>; Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:32:32 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 19:30:19 -0500 Message-Id: <94Jan28.193232est.295031@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> isspace() is an ASCII-ism. ANSI C has nothing helpful to say on the topic of collation and expanded character sets. if you have input and are prepared to defend your position, comp.std.character-set.flames.R.us is your oyster. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 3 16:39:45 1994 Replied: Sun, 06 Feb 1994 12:59:14 -0500 Replied: "Vijay Gill " Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Thu, 3 Feb 1994 17:02:45 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.60.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294556>; Thu, 3 Feb 1994 16:45:07 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA25624 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 3 Feb 1994 16:39:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA05857; Thu, 3 Feb 1994 16:39:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 16:39:45 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: nofileserver.ms in postscript To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some people wanted the postscript version of nofileserver.ms. I have it groff'ed and saved in .ps, so people who want copies of nofileserver.ps, please email me and I will send it out to you. The size is: 63013 bytes of postscript. Nofileserver.ms describes in detail how to set up plan9 if you do not have the standard hardware described in the release notes, to wit: you have no sparc's or MIPS machines. The authors give detail on how to set up plan9 using stand alone PC's, or unix boxes. Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 10:37:08 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:56:17 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292450>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:26 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA01635 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id KAA02763; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:08 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Gnots To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Seeing the overwhelming response to my nofileserver.ps offer, I am hoping to get deluged likewise with requests to sell me a Gnot ;) Actually, I was wondering if any Gnots are available commercially. And please, no sun 3/50's. I want the Gnot. Now onto some more questions: There was a post about creating comp.os.plan9. What happened? I think I saw somewhere that plan 9 was going to go primetime, i.e, commercial. Any people in the know able to confirm/deny? Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!geoff Fri Feb 4 10:37:08 1994 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!geoff Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 12:08:24 -0500 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292271>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 12:08:04 -0500 Received: from cse.psu.edu by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from 9fans-owner for geoff@plan9.cs.su.oz.au) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Sat, 05 Feb 1994 02:54:38 +1100 Received: by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU with postie; Sat, 5 Feb 1994 02:54:21 +1100 Received: by basser.cs.su.oz.au with MHSnet; Sat, 05 Feb 1994 02:54:19 +1100 Received: from cse.psu.edu by MHSnet id 3hIaz0-IE+Iayg; Sat, 05 Feb 1994 02:54:17 +1100 Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu (insecurely) by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU; Sat, 05 Feb 1994 02:54:15 +1100 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292450>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:26 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA01635 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:11 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id KAA02763; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:37:08 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Gnots To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Seeing the overwhelming response to my nofileserver.ps offer, I am hoping to get deluged likewise with requests to sell me a Gnot ;) Actually, I was wondering if any Gnots are available commercially. And please, no sun 3/50's. I want the Gnot. Now onto some more questions: There was a post about creating comp.os.plan9. What happened? I think I saw somewhere that plan 9 was going to go primetime, i.e, commercial. Any people in the know able to confirm/deny? Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 11:50:54 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:06:22 -0500 Received: from grunt.ksu.ksu.edu ([129.130.12.17]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292500>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:51:30 -0500 Received: from tonto.ksu.ksu.edu by grunt.ksu.ksu.edu (8.6.4/1.34) id KAA06314; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 10:50:55 -0600 From: strat@ksu.ksu.edu (Steve Davis) Message-Id: <199402041650.KAA06314@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> Subject: Re: Gnots To: vijay@gl.umbc.edu (Vijay Gill) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:50:54 -0500 Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: from "Vijay Gill" at Feb 4, 94 10:37:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 980 >From the keyboard of Vijay Gill: > There was a post about creating comp.os.plan9. What happened? Anyone interested in getting comp.os.plan9 should read read the "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" faq. The URL is: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/news.groups/How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup In general, somebody needs to draft up a Request For Comments, including a proposed charter of the new newsgroup and make it available. Then, if there's any interest out in net land, have a vote. I haven't seen a RFC for comp.os.plan9, so I assume nobody has gone this far. If nobody else steps forward, I could write up a RFC. > I think I saw somewhere that plan 9 was going to go primetime, > i.e, commercial. Any people in the know able to confirm/deny? I am interested in knowing this as well. -- Steve Davis (strat@ksu.ksu.edu) Kansas State University From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 12:27:27 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:46:54 -0500 Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de ([134.169.246.34]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292818>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:37:12 -0500 Received: from sol by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (5.65/1.341) id AA07374; Fri, 4 Feb 94 18:27:28 +0100 Received: by sol (4.1/SMI-4.1N) id AA12035; Fri, 4 Feb 94 18:27:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:27:27 -0500 From: schoenfr@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Erik Schoenfelder) Message-Id: <9402041727.AA12035@sol> To: strat@ksu.ksu.edu Return-Receipt-To: schoenfr@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Cc: vijay@gl.umbc.edu, 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: Steve Davis's message of Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:50:54 -0500 <199402041650.KAA06314@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> Subject: creating a newsgroup [was Re: Gnots] Reply-To: schoenfr@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Hi! > There was a post about creating comp.os.plan9. What happened? Steve> ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/news.groups/How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup Steve> In general, somebody needs to draft up a Request For Comments, Steve> including a proposed charter of the new newsgroup and make it Steve> available. Then, if there's any interest out in net land, Steve> have a vote. If I get it right, no RFC (Request For Comments) is needed (or helpful). Here is very rough the guideline (no warranty): The first step is a RFD (Request For Discussion) to the moderated group news.announce.newgroups with the desired name and charter of the group. The discussion period takes at least 30 days. Then it is possible to post a CFV (Call For Votes) again with (a possibly new) charter and instruction how to cast a vote. The voting takes between 21 and 31 days. Then the results are posted and after a 5 days waiting period 100 or more YES votes are needed and a 2/3 majority over the NO votes are neccessary to create the group. The complete ``How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup'' is appended. Erik -- Path: bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nic.hookup.net!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!not-for-mail From: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence) Newsgroups: news.announce.newusers,news.groups,news.admin.misc,news.announce.newgroups,news.answers Subject: How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup Supersedes: Followup-To: news.newusers.questions Date: 1 Feb 1994 19:12:36 -0500 Organization: UUNET Technologies Inc, Falls Church, VA, USA Lines: 157 Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net Expires: 3 Apr 94 12:12:34 GMT Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Summary: creating new groups in comp, misc, news, rec, sci, soc, or talk Xref: bloom-beacon.mit.edu news.announce.newusers:397 news.groups:37212 news.admin.misc:7804 news.announce.newgroups:1811 news.answers:14803 Archive-name: creating-newsgroups/part1 Original-author: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) Comment: enhanced & edited until 5/93 by spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) Last-change: 30 Nov 1993 by tale@uunet.uu.net GUIDELINES FOR USENET GROUP CREATION REQUIREMENTS FOR GROUP CREATION: These are guidelines that have been generally agreed upon across USENET as appropriate for following in the creating of new newsgroups in the "standard" USENET newsgroup hierarchy. They are NOT intended as guidelines for setting USENET policy other than group creations, and they are not intended to apply to "alternate" or local news hierarchies. The part of the namespace affected is comp, news, sci, misc, soc, talk, rec, which are the most widely-distributed areas of the USENET hierarchy. Any group creation request which follows these guidelines to a successful result should be honored, and any request which fails to follow these procedures or to obtain a successful result from doing so should be dropped, except under extraordinary circumstances. The reason these are called guidelines and not absolute rules is that it is not possible to predict in advance what "extraordinary circumstances" are or how they might arise. It should be pointed out here that, as always, the decision whether or not to create a newsgroup on a given machine rests with the administrator of that machine. These guidelines are intended merely as an aid in making those decisions. The Discussion 1) A request for discussion on creation of a new newsgroup should be posted to news.announce.newgroups, and also to any other groups or mailing lists at all related to the proposed topic if desired. The group is moderated, and the Followup-to: header will be set so that the actual discussion takes place only in news.groups. Users on sites which have difficulty posting to moderated groups may mail submissions intended for news.announce.newgroups to newgroups@uunet.uu.net. The article should be cross-posted among the newsgroups, including news.announce.newgroups, rather than posted as separate articles. Note that standard behaviour for posting software is to not present the articles in any groups when cross-posted to a moderated group; the moderator will handle that for you. 2) The name and charter of the proposed group and whether it will be moderated or unmoderated (and if the former, who the moderator(s) will be) should be determined during the discussion period. If there is no general agreement on these points among the proponents of a new group at the end of 30 days of discussion, the discussion should be taken offline (into mail instead of news.groups) and the proponents should iron out the details among themselves. Once that is done, a new, more specific proposal may be made, going back to step 1) above. 3) Group advocates seeking help in choosing a name to suit the proposed charter, or looking for any other guidance in the creation procedure, can send a message to group-advice@uunet.uu.net; a few seasoned news administrators are available through this address. The Vote Currently, the use of the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers (UVV) is strongly advocated for all newsgroup proposals. Ron Dippold co-ordinates this group. Contact him to arrange the handling of the vote. The mechanics of vote will be handled in accord with the paragraphs below. 1) AFTER the discussion period, if it has been determined that a new group is really desired, a name and charter are agreed upon, and it has been determined whether the group will be moderated and if so who will moderate it, a call for votes may be posted to news.announce.newgroups and any other groups or mailing lists that the original request for discussion might have been posted to. There should be minimal delay between the end of the discussion period and the issuing of a call for votes. The call for votes should include clear instructions for how to cast a vote. It must be as clearly explained and as easy to do to cast a vote for creation as against it, and vice versa. It is explicitly permitted to set up two separate addresses to mail yes and no votes to provided that they are on the same machine, to set up an address different than that the article was posted from to mail votes to, or to just accept replies to the call for votes article, as long as it is clearly and explicitly stated in the call for votes article how to cast a vote. If two addresses are used for a vote, the reply address must process and accept both yes and no votes OR reject them both. 2) The voting period should last for at least 21 days and no more than 31 days, no matter what the preliminary results of the vote are. The exact date that the voting period will end should be stated in the call for votes. Only votes that arrive on the vote-taker's machine prior to this date will be counted. 3) A couple of repeats of the call for votes may be posted during the vote, provided that they contain similar clear, unbiased instructions for casting a vote as the original, and provided that it is really a repeat of the call for votes on the SAME proposal (see #5 below). Partial vote results should NOT be included; only a statement of the specific new group proposal, that a vote is in progress on it, and how to cast a vote. It is permitted to post a "mass acknowledgement" in which all the names of those from whom votes have been received are posted, as long as no indication is made of which way anybody voted until the voting period is officially over. 4) ONLY votes MAILED to the vote-taker will count. Votes posted to the net for any reason (including inability to get mail to the vote-taker) and proxy votes (such as having a mailing list maintainer claim a vote for each member of the list) will not be counted. 5) Votes may not be transferred to other, similar proposals. A vote shall count only for the EXACT proposal that it is a response to. In particular, a vote for or against a newsgroup under one name shall NOT be counted as a vote for or against a newsgroup with a different name or charter, a different moderated/unmoderated status or (if moderated) a different moderator or set of moderators. 6) Votes MUST be explicit; they should be of the form "I vote for the group foo.bar as proposed" or "I vote against the group foo.bar as proposed". The wording doesn't have to be exact, it just needs to be unambiguous. In particular, statements of the form "I would vote for this group if..." should be considered comments only and not counted as votes. 7) A vote should be run only for a single group proposal. Attempts to create multiple groups should be handled by running multiple parallel votes rather than one vote to create all of the groups. The Result 1) At the completion of the voting period, the vote taker must post the vote tally and the E-mail addresses and (if available) names of the voters received to news.announce.newgroups and any other groups or mailing lists to which the original call for votes was posted. The tally should include a statement of which way each voter voted so that the results can be verified. 2) AFTER the vote result is posted, there will be a 5 day waiting period, beginning when the voting results actually appear in news.announce.newgroups, during which the net will have a chance to correct any errors in the voter list or the voting procedure. 3) AFTER the waiting period, and if there were no serious objections that might invalidate the vote, and if 100 more valid YES/create votes are received than NO/don't create AND at least 2/3 of the total number of valid votes received are in favor of creation, a newgroup control message may be sent out. If the 100 vote margin or 2/3 percentage is not met, the group should not be created. 4) The newgroup message will be sent by the news.announce.newgroups moderator at the end of the waiting period of a successful vote. If the new group is moderated, the vote-taker should send a message during the waiting period to David C. Lawrence with both the moderator's contact address and the group's submission address. 5) A proposal which has failed under point (3) above should not again be brought up for discussion until at least six months have passed from the close of the vote. This limitation does not apply to proposals which never went to vote. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 13:09:24 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:22:31 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292794>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:09:33 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:09:27 -0500 To: Vijay Gill cc: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: Gnots In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Feb 1994 10:37:08 EST." X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Feb4.130927est.2542@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | There was a post about creating comp.os.plan9. What happened? One person suggested it on the net, but I didn't see any followups. Given the light volume on this list, Would there be enough traffic to justify a newsgroup? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 15:49:19 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:40:37 -0500 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu via suspension id <294804>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:17:12 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293158>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:56:23 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Sat, 05 Feb 1994 07:55:45 +1100 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:49:19 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: Gnots To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Feb4.155623est.293158@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> What does a gnot win you? We're working at putting together the ideal terminal using a PC. At the moment, we've got a 486, we boot with tftp, and have 1600x485x2 resolution using Diamond Stealth Pro graphics card. Presently we're using a 17" monitor (which is usable). We'd like to get a look at a 21" grey-scale screen. Eizo has one (Aus$2800) but there's no local distributor at the moment so we haven't seen it yet. Has anyone else seen any grey-scale screens around? Any other ideas on best machine for a terminal? We want something already supported by Plan 9, cheapish, with a nice high-res display for large help(1) windows. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 18:14:48 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 18:31:29 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294854>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 18:14:54 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA09654; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 18:14:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA26020; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 18:14:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 18:14:48 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: Gnots To: Gary Capell cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: <94Feb4.155623est.293158@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You mentioned Diamond graphic cards - my question is: do you have drivers for them thar cards? I am still trying to put together a list of supported hardware configurations and so far, haven't gotten very far. Any help will be appreciated. I plan on setting up and maintaining a list of known hardware that works, making life easier on others who will not have to go through this over and over vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Fri Feb 4 19:11:14 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 19:18:21 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294888>; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 19:11:34 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA12033 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Fri, 4 Feb 94 16:11:14 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 19:11:14 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <9402050011.AA12033@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> To: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU, vijay@gl.umbc.edu Subject: Re: Gnots Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu If anyone has any information on wd90c31 or ATI Mach 32 VGA configuration files for Plan 9, please let me know. Mike From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sun Feb 6 12:15:59 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 12:27:25 -0500 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292244>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 12:17:15 -0500 From: geoff@plan9.cs.su.oz.au Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 12:15:59 -0500 To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: comp.os.plan9 Message-Id: <94Feb6.121715est.292244@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Alas, that was my call; I've put the RFD for comp.os.plan9 out a couple of times. The first time I couldn't really follow it up, as thesis work intervened. Both times the response didn't justify proceeding to a vote. I had a number of enthusiatic responses via e-mail - but you need 100 more YES votes than NO votes, and there's a hard core of people who vote NO to everything that they aren't personally interested. I didn't want the group to fail, and I don't want to create an alt group (given that Plan 9 really does deserve it's own Big 7 group). I figure I'll wait until after USENIX before bringing it up; who knows? If the folks from Bell publish Plan 9, then we'll probably have trouble _not_ getting a comp.os.plan9 - look at the interest in that astoundingly mediocre and uninteresting Linux thing. Geoff. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sun Feb 6 14:46:41 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 14:53:53 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292333>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 14:46:55 -0500 Received: from rpc04.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc04.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.24]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA21397 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 14:46:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc04.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.4) id OAA13883; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 14:46:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 14:46:41 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: comp.os.plan9 To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <94Feb6.121715est.292244@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 6 Feb 1994 geoff@plan9.cs.su.oz.au wrote: > we'll probably have trouble _not_ getting a comp.os.plan9 - look > at the interest in that astoundingly mediocre and uninteresting > Linux thing. This brings up a point. Editors on plan9. Sam is very nice, no doubt, I've built it on our systems and installed it and now use it exclusively when at school, but not having access to a SLIP line, can't really use sam from home except with sam -d, which is not as convenient as using vi or even, dare I say it, emacs. What I hope someone can help with, is running plan9 over a modem without slip, as the TERM program does for linux, allowing a dialout to an annex box from a home linux box, rlogging into the main system and running term, which allows X to go over the modems without SLIP. Now THAT would make life much easier. There are very many vt220/240/100 terminals out there and I don't expect them to go away very soon, wish plan 9 had better support for them. I guess a 386sx minimal system running plan9 and 8.5 would do the trick but I am not sure if plan9 has term or something similar. vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sun Feb 6 19:21:22 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 19:32:28 -0500 Received: from cssu46.cs.ust.hk ([143.89.40.46]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293269>; Sun, 6 Feb 1994 19:22:13 -0500 Received: from csnt1.cs.ust.hk by cssu46.cs.ust.hk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22485; Mon, 7 Feb 94 08:21:31 HKT From: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Received: by csnt1.cs.ust.hk (NX5.67c/SMI-4.1) id AA06584; Mon, 7 Feb 94 08:21:22 +0800 Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 19:21:22 -0500 Message-Id: <9402070021.AA06584@cs.ust.hk> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: comp.os.plan9 Geoff writes: > Alas, that was my call; I've put the RFD for comp.os.plan9 > out a couple of times. The first time I couldn't really > follow it up, as thesis work intervened. Both times the > response didn't justify proceeding to a vote. I had a number > of enthusiatic responses via e-mail - but you need 100 more > YES votes than NO votes, and there's a hard core of people who > vote NO to everything that they aren't personally interested. I'd like to suggest that, the next time you put out an RFD, you proselytize a little more aggressively. I'm *very* interested in comp.os.plan9, and have been quite surprised that there isn't one already. I'd vote yes (early and often, being from Chicago), but I've never seen the RFD. Perhaps you could put out the RFD to a wider audience, certainly including this mailing list, and maybe including comp.os.linux.misc, comp.sys.notebook, etc. I'd think that many of the people who are interested in Linux (c'mon now, running a more or less full-blown UNIX on something that you can carry around in your backpack is hardly completely devoid of interest...) would be interested in Plan 9 as well, ne? I've saved an 80Mb partition to load Plan 9 onto on my notebook... but haven't had the time to figure out what to do to get it up and running... Somehow having a little box that weighs 5lb and that can boot and run Linux, MSDOS (if you must) *and* Plan 9 appeals greatly to my geekly leanings. :-) _________________________________________________________________ Scott Deerwester | The Hong Kong University of Internet: scott@cs.ust.hk | Science and Technology Phone: (852) 358-6985 | Department of Computer Science ----------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 7 16:42:31 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3005>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 17:07:15 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293612>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:44:24 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA06655 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:42:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA26352; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:42:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:42:31 -0500 From: Vijay Gill To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The purpose of this list is to maintain a database of hardware that is known to work with plan 9. This should make life easier for those people contemplating the purchase of new hardware. Most of this list is taken directly from what Forsyth sent me. Please do not deluge him with mail, reply to me and I'll try to set up a mechanism to distribute this stuff. The list is starting out for the most selfish of reasons, since I am in the market for some hardware to run plan 9, I thought it would be a good idea to find out what to get. This list will concentrate mostly on the 386/486 clone hardware. While the 386/486 machines are looked upon with derision, they provide the cheapest hardware to run plan 9. However, most of the hardware is only tested with, and comes with drivers for, DOS and Windows, and thus may not work with plan 9. This list details the stuff that works with plan 9. BeginBlurb: Plan 9 on a Mac. No more futzing around. I could deal with plan 9 on a Powerbook 180. End Blurb. Contributors: Most of this hardware list comes from forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk who has done yeoman work to contributing to this list. Actually, come to think of it, his is about the only contribution ;) Here is the list of hardware that will work with plan 9. Other hardware may work with plan 9, but this list will only list stuff that is known to work or stuff that I need confirmation on. ----------------------------------------------------- Bus: ISA VESA EISA (may work with ISA Cards, need confirmation) ----------------------------------------------------- CPU: Intel AMD - To be tested by Forsyth Cyrix - Ditto IBM SLC - Ditto ------------------------------------------------------ Video Cards: This is the trickiest part. SVGA cards all have different ways of configuring and operating high-resolution modes (higher than 640x480 VGA). ET4000 SVGA cards work. S3 911 cards work Paradise cards (reportedly) work. Diamond Stealth Pro cards work, with some changes to devvga.c and lib/vga. This is from Gary Chapel. ------------------------------------------------------ Ethernet cards: WD SMC NE2000 clones (Reset port address it uses might not work on some clones) 3Com 3C509 Etherlink III (need to get some fixes to use the driver under very heavy loads) 3Com 3C503 -- Avoid this one ------------------------------------------------------------ Hard Disk Controllers: Ultrastor 14F SCSI (driver is available by ftp) Adaptec 1542B/Buslogic 542B (driver is available, but hasn't been used very much) Forsyth has added the driver for the Ultrastor 14F. He has used it on both cpu and terminal machines, and also on the file server, running Fujitsu 2624FA disks, Seagate 3283N and Sun CDROM drives. Standard IDE controllers should work. -------------------------------------------------------------- Memory: 8-16 megs should be adequate. More is better. -------------------------------------------------------------- Modems: High speed modems will work but the kernel does not take advantage of the FIFO's in the 16550 UARTS. Forsyth can supply the diffs and the appropriate changes that will work for `hayes', which work fine upto 38400. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diskettes: Stick with 3.5" 1.44 meg or 5.25". Plan 9 does not work too well with 2.88 meg 3.5". --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disks: The pc system on the distribution (Jan 1993 version) supports IDE disks. The IDE driver has a bug in it that causes it to fail on very old Seagate 42 Meg drives (fixed by Forsyth). Modern IDE drives work just fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the list as it stands. If you have plan 9 running on different hardware, please send me details. War stories welcomed, to go into the war stories list. I presently have Forsyth's war story. More input welcomed. I will be looking at putting this stuff up for anon ftp when I have sufficient volume. If there is sufficient interest, I'll post up the war stories that I have. -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 7 20:08:44 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3013>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 21:07:19 -0500 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293760>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:52:23 -0500 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:08:44 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: memory >> 8-16 megs should be adequate. More is better. it depends on what you are doing. on a standalone machine at home, i have 32 Mb but rarely use more than 5 Mbytes, if that. you need 8-12 Mbytes to link the pc cpu/terminal kernels quickly. i've linked one on a 4 Mbyte 386sx16, but it takes a long time with much paging. on a shared CPU server, or especially a file server, more is better. the catch is that on an ISA bus machine, you can't DMA above 16 Mbytes, so the system must copy the data below 16 Mbytes & DMA from there. at work, i use a 4 Mb 386sx16 as a terminal, which runs 8-1/2 but i run cpu in most windows (except sam -r and seemail). note that unlike most X11 implementations, the editing in each window including mouse handling is done locally, so i'm not affected by load on the network or CPU server. i currently run special-purpose CPU servers (DNS servers, ftp servers) on lots of things that haven't got a lot of memory. for instance, a DNS service runs happily on a 386sx16 with 4 Mbytes running a pc cpu kernel. (in case you wondered, we have a lot of 386sx16 4Mbyte machines about the place.) i am planning to upgrade the CPU on that, but i'll keep it with 4 Mbytes -- that's plenty. on a PC, if you are going to use /dev/bitblt, you have to allow some extra space for the shadow copy of the screen. it's a modest amount at 1 bit-per-pixel, but rather more for 8-bit colour. perhaps one day, with PCI, some of this waste will go away. anyhow, i didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea: plan 9 runs very well on configurations that SunOS, Solaris, Windows/NT and even OS/2 would disdain. remember that you can take advantage of the ease of distribution that the system gives you. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 7 21:48:04 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3013>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 22:02:08 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293816>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 21:48:56 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Tue, 08 Feb 1994 13:48:37 +1100 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 21:48:04 -0500 From: gary@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: s3 cards To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Feb7.214856est.293816@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >the S3 card also needs changes to devvga.c and lib/vga. >SVGA is horrible, just horrible. amen, brother. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 06:42:17 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 07:09:18 -0500 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292145>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 06:54:29 -0500 Message-ID: X-Sender: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 06:42:17 -0500 To: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk (Pete Fenelon) Subject: Re: Sam and emacs Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-Mailer: >I'm really hesitant to bring this up... but the main barrier to me to >making Plan 9 my major environment is the disdain for emacs. I >*really* appreciate having an editor that is programmable down to its >bones, in something like a real programming language. Ugh. An editor is for editing text files. A programming language is for writing programs. Never the twain shall meet, ideally. >It's not that >I'm addicted to left-meta-shift-coke bottle style interfaces, but... >I really don't understand the "this page intentionally left blank" >attitude. I mean, the fact that you can build things like ange-ftp >and WWW mode is *really* nice! How do accomodate the same sort of >thing in sam? You don't. Read Rob's papers on Help, and Acme. He's built environments in which text and programs interact (relatively) seamlessly, and instead of a monolithic (or do I mean neolithic :-)) environment like emacs, you have small, neat, integrated tools. >And I don't know how to function without emacs' gdb >mode! The fact that the editor itself can put me at the line where >the music stopped, and I've got a full honest-to-God editor under me >without having to go, "Uh.. lessee.. that was line 136 in file >blurfle.c..". And when I recompile, I have all of the error messages >in a buffer, and need two keystrokes per syntax error (which adds up >if you've got enough syntax errors ;-) to page through them and fix >them -- again, with a real editor. > Again, you should read Rob's paper on Help, which shows a wonderful example of debugging -- he shows how to track a bug down to an individual line in a source file without even typing one character... >And then there's guess-indent mode that does about as good a job as I >can at figuring out where I probably wanted the cursor after the line >wraps, and abbrev mode, which now auto-corrects all of my most common >typos -- watching somebody's face when I type "taht " and they see the >"a" and the "h" switch places as soon as I hit the space is kind of >fun. This is pretty much a matter of taste. You can probably hack autoindent into Sam if you want it; but as far as auto-correction goes I prefer "what you type is what you get"... I don't like the editor messing around with my input! > >There's lots that I don't like about emacs, but the fact that it's >*programmable* means that my productivity as a programmer and generic >computer professional is about an order of magnitude higher than it >would have been if I didn't have it. > >The most common complaint that I hear about emacs is that there are >too many blasted things to learn -- and the learning curve *is* really >steep. But that doesn't seem to be the reason for the intentional >blank page in the Plan 9 manual. Would somebody please enlighten me? > There are some Good Things in the emacs philosophy -- multiple buffers, powerful regular expressions, a fairly reasonable text-selection mechanism, etc. In fact, many of the things I like about Sam! However, there are also some Very Bad Lurking Horrors in it -- particularly the use of Lisp as implementation/extension language, and the sheer bulk of "modern" emacs. all subjective, Pete -- Peter Fenelon: Research Associate: High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD +44/0 904 433388 Email:pete@minster.york.ac.uk *There's no room for enigmas in built up areas From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 09:32:37 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 09:55:22 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292227>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 09:38:32 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Thu, 10 Feb 1994 01:38:12 +1100 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 09:32:37 -0500 From: gary@joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: no emacs in plan 9 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Feb9.093832est.292227@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> acme is a better emacs than emacs, because it uses the mouse fully, and is a _tool_ that other programs can use, rather than a monolith. I can understand being disappointed with losing emacs and getting sam, as an integrated environment is a good thing. But when you compare apples with apples, you'll be happy you switched to plan 9 and acme. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 10:41:24 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:01:28 -0500 Received: from plg.uwaterloo.ca ([129.97.140.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292450>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:43:03 -0500 Received: by plg.uwaterloo.ca id <230541>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:41:25 -0500 From: Dave Mason To: gary@joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU CC: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Gary Capell's message of Wed, 9 Feb 1994 09:32:37 -0500 <94Feb9.093832est.292227@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Subject: no emacs in plan 9 X-Face: %Q_F^9R-:'3MM7eZ6@E.x@f\*bgatzGv-8d%I~L[p^.F)3QF{kq\UTsu|e#?)3FPwJNvPPB !s*He|-*M^p*~bh"Nywm5NLL\\Rl3r(hWHY*F:$/RdKV*bS";n&#\Ov@*=]mu\}6tP Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:41:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 09:32:37 -0500 From: gary@joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) acme is a better emacs than emacs, because it uses the mouse fully, and is a _tool_ that other programs can use, rather than a monolith. Sounds good for mouse exploiters. But what if I don't want to use the damn mouse? Call me neanderthal, but I'm not willing to slow my work down by a factor of 2 to use a mouse. Does acme support alt/control/shift key bindings? (For reference, I touch the mouse maybe 5 times a day... all my Xwindow focus, open, iconify, etc. are bound to key sequences.) I'm not in love with emacs... in fact I detest many aspects of it, but it's far better than all the other tools I have available... and it lives on all the machines I have to use. ../Dave From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 12:02:11 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:20:34 -0500 Received: from postman.osf.org ([130.105.1.152]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292838>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:03:02 -0500 Received: from sulphur.osf.org by postman.osf.org (5.64+/OSF 1.0) id AA10917; Wed, 9 Feb 94 12:02:48 -0500 Received: by sulphur.osf.org (1.37.109.4/4.7) id AA28773; Wed, 9 Feb 94 12:02:11 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:02:11 -0500 From: rsalz@osf.org Message-Id: <9402091702.AA28773@sulphur.osf.org> To: pete@minster.york.ac.uk, scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Subject: Re: Sam and emacs Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Ugh. An editor is for editing text files. A programming language is for > writing programs. Never the twain shall meet, ideally. You don't really believe that. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 13:01:14 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:16:41 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292920>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:01:46 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:01:25 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Seven reasons why Plan 9 is not my favorite operating system. Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:01:14 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Feb9.130125est.3007@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Reason 1: bitmap fonts. They have two disadvantages. First, they only come in a few inflexible sizes. I miss NeWS, where fonts were nice scalable postscript objects. Second, they are hard to read. (Especially on a 640x480 screen!) If pixmaps were used, the glyphs could be anti-aliased, with grey pixels smoothing out the jaggies. To see what a big difference this makes in apparent resolution, look at the output of a recent version of xdvi. It's not a frill, but a qualitative improvement in, well, quality. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 19:38:02 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:47:42 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292525>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:24 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA04634 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:06 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id TAA02683; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:02 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: rumours of plan 9 going commercial To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <9402082226.AA22533@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > However, I think Rob Pike has said that they are trying > to get Plan 9 publicly released. I assume he means as > free software along the lines of awk or sam. I believe > this is the only way Plan 9 will ever have a chance to see > the widespread use it deserves, and so I hope very much > that this happens. Oh god, I think the earth moved for me. I am drumming up support for plan 9 here, but when I say it doesn't run emacs, people lose all interest and the weird thing is that after about 2 weeks of running sam, I would hate to go back to emacs, and I am a die hard emacs/vi fan. But most people don't seem to be willing to take the time to learn sam properly. People I showed sam to... oh whats the point. The compatibility list seems to be working, I got some mail about it, so people, if you have PC's running plan 9, mail me your configuration/hardware specs and get them incorporated into the list. vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 20:04:38 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:19:02 -0500 Received: from cssu46.cs.ust.hk ([143.89.40.46]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294102>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:05:47 -0500 Received: from csnt1.cs.ust.hk by cssu46.cs.ust.hk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11368; Wed, 9 Feb 94 09:05:22 HKT From: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Received: by csnt1.cs.ust.hk (NX5.67c/SMI-4.1) id AA01534; Wed, 9 Feb 94 09:04:38 +0800 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:04:38 -0500 Message-Id: <9402090104.AA01534@cs.ust.hk> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: Vijay Gill Subject: Sam and emacs Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Vijay writes: >> However, I think Rob Pike has said that they are trying >> to get Plan 9 publicly released. I assume he means as >> free software along the lines of awk or sam. I believe >> this is the only way Plan 9 will ever have a chance to see >> the widespread use it deserves, and so I hope very much >> that this happens. > > Oh god, I think the earth moved for me. > I am drumming up support for plan 9 here, but when I say it > doesn't run emacs, people lose all interest and the weird thing > is that after about 2 weeks of running sam, I would hate to go > back to emacs, and I am a die hard emacs/vi fan. But most people > don't seem to be willing to take the time to learn sam properly. > People I showed sam to... oh whats the point. I'm really hesitant to bring this up... but the main barrier to me to making Plan 9 my major environment is the disdain for emacs. I *really* appreciate having an editor that is programmable down to its bones, in something like a real programming language. It's not that I'm addicted to left-meta-shift-coke bottle style interfaces, but... I really don't understand the "this page intentionally left blank" attitude. I mean, the fact that you can build things like ange-ftp and WWW mode is *really* nice! How do accomodate the same sort of thing in sam? And I don't know how to function without emacs' gdb mode! The fact that the editor itself can put me at the line where the music stopped, and I've got a full honest-to-God editor under me without having to go, "Uh.. lessee.. that was line 136 in file blurfle.c..". And when I recompile, I have all of the error messages in a buffer, and need two keystrokes per syntax error (which adds up if you've got enough syntax errors ;-) to page through them and fix them -- again, with a real editor. And then there's guess-indent mode that does about as good a job as I can at figuring out where I probably wanted the cursor after the line wraps, and abbrev mode, which now auto-corrects all of my most common typos -- watching somebody's face when I type "taht " and they see the "a" and the "h" switch places as soon as I hit the space is kind of fun. There's lots that I don't like about emacs, but the fact that it's *programmable* means that my productivity as a programmer and generic computer professional is about an order of magnitude higher than it would have been if I didn't have it. The most common complaint that I hear about emacs is that there are too many blasted things to learn -- and the learning curve *is* really steep. But that doesn't seem to be the reason for the intentional blank page in the Plan 9 manual. Would somebody please enlighten me? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 20:10:10 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:19:01 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294113>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:12:07 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:10:15 -0500 To: Vijay Gill cc: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: rumours of plan 9 going commercial In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Feb 1994 19:38:02 EST." X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Feb8.201015est.3007@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | ...the weird thing is that after about 2 weeks of running sam, I would | hate to go back to emacs, and I am a die hard emacs/vi fan. Just wait 'til you see acme. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 21:12:38 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 21:21:07 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294164>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 21:13:13 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 21:12:49 -0500 To: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) cc: Vijay Gill , 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Sam and emacs In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Feb 1994 20:04:38 EST." <9402090104.AA01534@cs.ust.hk> X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Feb8.211249est.3007@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | I'm really hesitant to bring this up... but the main barrier to me to | making Plan 9 my major environment is the disdain for emacs. I | *really* appreciate having an editor that is programmable down to its | bones, in something like a real programming language. At Usenix Rob was kind enough to let me play with acme (running on a laptop pc) for a while, and it seemed like acme is sufficiently extensible to be able to do most of the interesting things that are attractive about emacs. It was pretty impressive, really. Acme is extensible by using external agents, more like XEDIT and REXX under VM/CMS than like emacs, actually. So if someone ports a Scheme interpreter to Plan 9, who needs elisp? :-) From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 22:21:38 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:33:42 -0500 Received: from plg.uwaterloo.ca ([129.97.140.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294229>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:22:19 -0500 Received: by plg.uwaterloo.ca id <230543>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:21:51 -0500 From: Dave Mason To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Vijay Gill's message of Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:02 -0500 Subject: rumours of plan 9 going commercial X-Face: %Q_F^9R-:'3MM7eZ6@E.x@f\*bgatzGv-8d%I~L[p^.F)3QF{kq\UTsu|e#?)3FPwJNvPPB !s*He|-*M^p*~bh"Nywm5NLL\\Rl3r(hWHY*F:$/RdKV*bS";n&#\Ov@*=]mu\}6tP Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:21:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:38:02 -0500 From: Vijay Gill > However, I think Rob Pike has said that they are trying > to get Plan 9 publicly released. I assume he means as > free software along the lines of awk or sam. I believe > this is the only way Plan 9 will ever have a chance to see > the widespread use it deserves, and so I hope very much > that this happens. Oh god, I think the earth moved for me. I like the Plan 9 design *A*LOT*. I have read most of the documentation (about a year ago). I am currently running Linux on my laptop, because I refuse to run an operating system for which I don't have source. As far as I'm concerned, I do not have source for Plan 9, because though the University may have source, I refuse to look at source that may some day taint me and any operating system code I may produce (c.f. the USL v.s BSDI lawsuit). If the plan 9 source was covered by a copyright like NJ/SML (also from AT&T), I would almost certainly switch (despite my editor comments below). I am drumming up support for plan 9 here, but when I say it doesn't run emacs, people lose all interest and the weird thing is that after about 2 weeks of running sam, I would hate to go I use emacs for 3 reasons: customizability, availability on any platform on which I would consider working, and a shell interface (under which I run the Unix rc) that I can use *from*the*keyboard* (I *hate* mice). I played with the Unix sam for a while, but wasn't too impressed (the native plan 9 version is probably much nicer). acme sounds interesting... if there was a Unix version (for the machines where I can't change the OS) I'd be willing to give it a serious shot. ../Dave From psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!geoff Tue Feb 8 11:51:33 1994 Return-Path: psuvax1.cse.psu.edu!plan9.cs.su.oz.au!geoff Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:54:26 -0500 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292599>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:54:09 -0500 From: geoff@plan9.cs.su.oz.au To: <9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:51:33 -0500 Message-Id: <94Feb8.115409est.292599@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Scott Deerwester: >I'd like to suggest that, the next time you put out an RFD, >you proselytize a little more aggressively. I'm *very* interested >in comp.os.plan9, and have been quite surprised that there isn't >one already. I'd vote yes (early and often, being from Chicago), >but I've never seen the RFD. Perhaps you could put out the RFD >to a wider audience, certainly including this mailing list, and >maybe including comp.os.linux.misc, comp.sys.notebook, etc. >I'd think that many of the people who are interested in Linux >(c'mon now, running a more or less full-blown UNIX on something >that you can carry around in your backpack is hardly completely >devoid of interest...) would be interested in Plan 9 as well, ne? There were over 40 newsgroups that `could have been relevant' to a RFD for Plan 9. I'd rather not launch a huge campaign, as OS evangelism is a fairly irritating behavior (even when you are running the |<00L3St 0S in the whole wide world :-). I should have sent the RFD to this list, but I was planning to do that only if there was a reasonable support from the rest of the net - after all, if all the support we got was from users of the mailing list, why not just stay with the mailing list? Still as an experiment: if you're reading this list, and you'd go to the trouble of voting on comp.os.plan9, mail me and let me what you'd vote (and if you'd vote `no', then what your reasons are). Support from the people at the Labs is another issue. I would think a newsgroup would reduce the amount of support mail to the Labs, if there was a decent FAQ there and people could post answers about getting Plan 9 up and running. There's also a the fact that of traffic on this list being hardly overwhelming (these last couple weeks are an exception). >I've saved an 80Mb partition to load Plan 9 onto on my notebook... >but haven't had the time to figure out what to do to get it up >and running... Perhaps this should be our first FAQ? PC configuration type stuff? (I await answers to gary's pc file server question with interest). Geoff. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 11:57:05 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:36:28 -0500 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292643>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:17:59 -0500 From: geoff@plan9.cs.su.oz.au Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:57:05 -0500 To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: ping... ping... ping... Message-Id: <94Feb8.121759est.292643@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Some survey-type questions for non-Bell p9 sites... Out there, who is actually gotten p9 running? (that is, you've got a distribution and you've installed it and gotten a usable system up and running) Of those, how many still have their Plan 9 partition/machine? Of those, how many log onto it regularly, or use it as their system of choice? How about configurations - who is using what? SPARCS? x86's? Dedicated file servers? WORM drives? If a Plan 9 archive site opened, would you want to use 9P to talk to it, or FTP? What would you want to upload? What would you want to see there? How many people at your site use Plan 9? How many develop or do research on it? What are they doing? Of particular interest would be development work - I think we should have a better idea of what the rest of the world is doing, to avoid messy duplication. Post your answers or mail them to me, and I'll strip out locations/identities if you don't want to publish to the world that you're running a system that 1) has a user `none' that can be accessed from anywhere, and 2) can listen to a Ethernet promiscuously Oops - that just slipped out. I'm not trying to give bozos ideas (you can't telnet in as none from outside our department anyway) but some better way of controlling access to the `none' account better be dreamed up (not everyone has the luxury of a firewalled system). Grumph. Another random question while I'm on - are there any good, high-speed point-to-point interfaces to hook up PC's at a fairly short distance (say 0.5m)? It strikes me that most networks are overkill for linking a file server and cpu server, given that they are designed for many hosts and fairly large distances. Neither of these factors apply to a cpu/fs link. A cheap solution to the above would be appreciated. Geoff. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 16:27:34 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:43:51 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293963>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:28:23 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA24454; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:27:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA26442; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:27:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:27:34 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: SCSI support for PC, file server? To: Gary Capell cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: <19940208120040.19792.frobozz@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 7 Feb 1994, Gary Capell wrote: > So does someone have a PC running as a file server somewhere? > If it's possible to get a Plan9 cpu server, file server and terminal > with three off-the-shelf PCs, it expands the possible market > enormously, I think, which means more developers, which means more > software, and support for more hardware, which expands the market, > which...oh who am I kidding? Ok, Forsyth has this exact setup up and running. I can send out the war story of his if you want. Re: Market. I am not sure if going commercial with plan 9 will change anything any more. I wish it would, for then I would not have to program or manage MS-Windows/X11 et al. when I go out to work. The fact that I am paying for college by adminstrating large unix boxen is annoying enough as it is. Plan 9 is very nice but I am not sure if it can make it commercially. MS-Windows: the stuff nightmares are made up out of. vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 17:26:21 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 17:40:10 -0500 Received: from skinner.cs.uoregon.edu ([128.223.4.13]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294013>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 17:26:41 -0500 Received: from majestix.cs.uoregon.edu by skinner.cs.uoregon.edu with SMTP id AA22533 (5.65/IDA-1.4.2 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Tue, 8 Feb 94 14:26:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 17:26:21 -0500 From: Mike Haertel Message-Id: <9402082226.AA22533@skinner.cs.uoregon.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: rumours of plan 9 going commercial For some reason various people on this list have been floating rumours about plan 9 going commercial. I think this is ludicrous. At best, wishful thinking; at worst, confusing to others on the list. I don't think Plan 9 has any real chance of going commercial. First of all, the entrenched momentum of the Unix/X11 and DOS/Windows markets is too great. I am essentially the only person here who uses Plan 9; I have tried to find other recruits, but between a shortage of hardware and the "what do you mean it doesn't have EMACS?" syndrome, it is an uphill battle. Secondly, remember AT&T sold USL to Novell. I think this makes it clear that AT&T doesn't really want to be in the business of selling operating systems. So basically, forget it. However, I think Rob Pike has said that they are trying to get Plan 9 publicly released. I assume he means as free software along the lines of awk or sam. I believe this is the only way Plan 9 will ever have a chance to see the widespread use it deserves, and so I hope very much that this happens. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 18:32:00 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:20:26 -0500 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294071>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:03:28 -0500 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 18:32:00 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: the old world >>The fact that I am paying for college by adminstrating large unix >>boxen is annoying enough as it is. ``The monstrous vices of the son have cast a shade on the purity of the father's virtues'' as Gibbon so aptly put it (Decline & Fall). Never mind, there's hope yet. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 8 22:33:31 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:44:14 -0500 Received: from ursa.sis.yorku.ca ([130.63.74.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294241>; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:39:15 -0500 Received: from localhost.yorku.ca by sis.yorku.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09236; Tue, 8 Feb 94 22:33:32 EST Message-Id: <9402090333.AA09236@sis.yorku.ca> To: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Sam and emacs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Feb 94 20:04:38 EST." <9402090104.AA01534@cs.ust.hk> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:33:31 -0500 From: "Ozan S. Yigit" scott deerwester writes in part: ... > I'm really hesitant to bring this up... but the main barrier to me to > making Plan 9 my major environment is the disdain for emacs. some consider p9 emacs man page ["this page intentionally left blank"] to be one of the most profound documents of the recent computing literature. it says all there is to say. > ... I > *really* appreciate having an editor that is programmable down to its > bones, in something like a real programming language. ... > There's lots that I don't like about emacs, but the fact that it's > *programmable* means that my productivity as a programmer and generic > computer professional is about an order of magnitude higher than it > would have been if I didn't have it. emacs is an artifact of a computing world in which most programs cannot be used together to compose other, more interesting work environments. in that world, editors have at best a mediocre interface to outside systems, so anything resembling a uniform environment is possible only by laboriously re-creating the outside world within the editor. of course, this re-creation requires a "special" extension language so that the labor can be transferred to the unsuspecting users, who appearently see nothing wrong in their remarkable inability to utilize what is already out there. "oh, we can just program emacs to do that..." sigh. an alternative to this opeque, incoherent and incompatible world is to create a transparant, consistent, highly composable environment in which the "editor" blends into the environment and is naturally extensible by it. p9 and acme [1] are attempts in that direction, also see oberon [2] for the implementation details of another such system. hope this helps. oz --- [1] Rob Pike Acme: A User Interface for Programmers USENIX Conference Proceedings San Francisco, Winter 1994. [1] Wirth & Gutknecht Project Oberon: The Design of an Operating System & Compiler Addison-Wesley, 1993. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 7 20:23:48 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3007>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:36:11 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293739>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:23:52 -0500 Received: from moria.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Tue, 08 Feb 1994 12:23:18 +1100 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: <19940208120040.19792.frobozz@moria.cs.su.OZ.AU> From: Gary Capell Subject: Re: SCSI support for PC, file server? Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:23:48 -0500 So does someone have a PC running as a file server somewhere? If it's possible to get a Plan9 cpu server, file server and terminal with three off-the-shelf PCs, it expands the possible market enormously, I think, which means more developers, which means more software, and support for more hardware, which expands the market, which...oh who am I kidding? I didn't even know anyone was working on such a thing. I'd hate for there to be duplication of effort, there's too much to do. I think we're fast approaching the time we need an FTP site to store our various hacks. Also, perhaps people should post to this list what s'ware they have written, and what they are in the process of or planning on writing. We can avoid duplication, maybe even cooperate. BTW, are there dangers or complications with sharing? What does a license restrict you from sharing with the world? What if your code is mostly derived from Bell Labs source? Is there a danger of diverging Plan 9 versions, a la Unix? I think my ideal would be an ftp site of various drivers, ports, and apps which would be treated as beta test, with the working drivers and ports, and apps WORTH cluttering up the name space/disk space, selected by Bell Labs and added to the next distribution. Thoughts? And what are _you_ working on/thinking of working on? BTW, I have a munged version of help(1) that lets you use the view key and has some acme(1) features, i.e. click button 3 on a filename to open, current directory state associated with each window. If anyone wants it, I'm not sure what I'm allowed to do, but _I_ certainly don't mind sharing :-). From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 7 20:01:17 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:50:01 -0500 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293762>; Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:33:02 -0500 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 20:01:17 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: s3 cards >> S3 911 cards work >> Diamond Stealth Pro cards work, with some changes >> to devvga.c and lib/vga. This is from >> Gary Chapel. the S3 card also needs changes to devvga.c and lib/vga. SVGA is horrible, just horrible. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 21:16:06 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 21:37:38 -0500 Received: from cssu46.cs.ust.hk ([143.89.40.46]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294467>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 21:20:14 -0500 Received: from csnt1.cs.ust.hk by cssu46.cs.ust.hk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17097; Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:17:21 HKT From: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Received: by csnt1.cs.ust.hk (NX5.67c/SMI-4.1) id AA00615; Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:16:06 +0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 21:16:06 -0500 Message-Id: <9402100216.AA00615@cs.ust.hk> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Sam and emacs I knew that I was going to regret bringing this up. :-) Let's see if I've got this right: the Big Philosophical Reason that the emacs page is blank in the Plan 9 manual is something like: Okay, fine, emacs has wonderful functionality, and is extensible, etc, etc... but the things that make emacs a wonderful tool ought to apply to a whole flinking operating environment, not an editor, for Pete's sake. That's exactly what Plan 9 was written for -- to be an operating system that does, in a modular and sensible way, what emacs does in a horrible monolithic way. So I really ought to be comparing emacs with Plan 9 (and in particular with acme, which is the part of the whole Plan that meets the same goals that emacs-as-world-view meets), and not with sam, which is a very nice *editor*, like God and Rob intended. Am I getting close? Geez, I only just now realized that acme is a pun on "emacs". Rob, can I buy a clue, please? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 21:52:50 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:12:40 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.208]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294472>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:01:01 -0500 Received: from joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:58:06 +1100 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 21:52:50 -0500 From: gary@joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: seven reasons... To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94Feb9.220101est.294472@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> We have anti-aliased fonts (for times, at least). An anti-aliased version of pelm.9 would be nice, though. There may be licensing problems with scalable fonts? From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 22:19:44 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:36:28 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294477>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:23:25 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:19:44 -0500 Message-Id: <94Feb9.222325est.294477@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> c'mon, guys, take this editor discussion somewhere else please.... -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 22:28:15 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3006>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:43:29 -0500 Received: from plan9.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294505>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:33:02 -0500 From: rob@plan9.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:28:15 -0500 Message-Id: <94Feb9.223302est.294505@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> there's a background project here to do some scaling font stuff. we may use them one day, if the results are good enough, on our higher-resolution (>130 dpi) monitors. you need the higher res. the problem is that antialiased fonts are often poor for day-to-day use because their fuzziness bothers the eye. programs like nEwS (or your favorite pOSTsCRIPT interpreter, for different reasons) try not to use scaled fonts when they can, but rather refer to precompiled rasterized, hand-tuned, unfuzzy fonts. the results are faster, sharper, more pleasing, and easier on the eye. -rob From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 10 21:22:22 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 21:38:47 -0500 Received: from cssu46.cs.ust.hk ([143.89.40.46]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294737>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 21:24:00 -0500 Received: from csnt1.cs.ust.hk by cssu46.cs.ust.hk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19052; Fri, 11 Feb 94 10:23:39 HKT From: scott@cs.ust.hk (Scott Deerwester) Received: by csnt1.cs.ust.hk (NX5.67c/SMI-4.1) id AA01775; Fri, 11 Feb 94 10:22:22 +0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 21:22:22 -0500 Message-Id: <9402110222.AA01775@cs.ust.hk> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Apology I'd like to apologize for bringing up the topic of emacs here. My intention was to try to better understand Plan 9 as a practical system. The spirit of the original request was: Emacs has all of this wonderful functionality... Plan 9 *must*, but I don't see how. Could somebody explain it to me? I'm a person who likes Plan 9 a *lot* in principle, but who is having a lot of trouble putting that into practice. (I'm also having a lot of trouble convincing anybody else at my institution to care, but that's another issue.) My productivity as a hacker depends strongly on things that emacs gives me. I (and presumably others who share my "problem") need to see that moving to Plan 9 won't cut my productivity in half. The issue seemed to me to have a lot more to do with Plan 9 than emacs -- I certainly had no intention to try to "convert" anybody to emacs. The discussion has clarified the issue a lot; the thing wrong with emacs (and *right* with Plan 9) is that emacs provides its functionality in a nasty monolithic way instead of in a clean, modular way. Plan 9 gives you functionality similar to that of emacs, but without forcing an editor to be anything but a good editor. In any case, the thread has obviously offended several of you, so I'll drop it... and go back to trying to get Plan 9 running on my notebook. _________________________________________________________________ Scott Deerwester | The Hong Kong University of Internet: scott@cs.ust.hk | Science and Technology Phone: (852) 358-6985 | Department of Computer Science ----------------------------------------------------------------- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 9 22:58:40 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:21:10 -0500 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293218>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:07:13 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:06:51 -0500 Replied: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:59:46 -0500 Replied: ""ozan s. yigit" " Return-Path: ursa.sis.yorku.ca!oz@cse.psu.edu Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 23:06:47 -0500 Received: from ursa.sis.yorku.ca ([130.63.74.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294523>; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 23:06:27 -0500 Received: by sis.yorku.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12511; Wed, 9 Feb 94 22:58:40 EST Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:58:40 -0500 From: "ozan s. yigit" Message-Id: <9402100358.AA12511@sis.yorku.ca> To: 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu Subject: disclaimer. Resent-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:06:37 -0500 Resent-From: Scott Schwartz Resent-Message-Id: <94Feb10.140651est.2538@groucho.cse.psu.edu> it appears that i forgot a disclaimer on my earlier response: they are my views only and in no way reflect the views of anyone associated with the project, or any philosophical basis for that project. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 10 09:35:18 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2538>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:52:11 -0500 Received: from emmetal.cs.wisc.edu ([128.105.9.35]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293067>; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:38:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:35:18 -0500 From: bob@cs.wisc.edu (Bob Kummerfeld) Message-Id: <9402101435.AA06155@emmetal.cs.wisc.edu> Received: by emmetal.cs.wisc.edu; Thu, 10 Feb 94 08:35:18 -0600 To: scott@cs.ust.hk Subject: Re: Sam and emacs Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu um, I think comp.os.research is a more appropriate place for this discussion. This is "9fans" and not "emacsfans" after all. Bob. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Tue Feb 15 23:11:10 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:18:09 -0500 Received: from inet.research.att.com ([192.20.225.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294180>; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:12:06 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Received: by inet; Tue Feb 15 23:11 EST 1994 From: rob@plan9.att.com Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:11:10 -0500 Message-Id: <94Feb15.231206est.294180@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> be a weenie: fn cd{ builtin cd $* && prompt = (`{pwd}^'% ' ' ') } also man pbd From cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Tue Feb 15 22:43:06 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!plan9-fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 22:50:22 -0500 Received: from phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.4.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294150>; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 22:43:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (jwjohn@localhost) by phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id TAA26408 for plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 15 Feb 1994 19:43:07 -0800 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <199402160343.TAA26408@phantasm.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Changes for cpuserver & pwd prompt? To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 22:43:06 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 664 Hi, is all that's required to bring up a machine as a cpuserver; - enter "auth/adduser -h -p newmachinename" from an authentication server.(then give newmachine a password) - enter the newmachine into cpurc - enter the changes of newmachine in /lib/ndb/local and run mk again?? Anything else? (Hope I remembered all the changes. Keep getting "authentication failed"). We've got an ipx that's been used as a terminal fine, but has been fighting the idea of changing to a cpuserver. ;) (The fs and other cpu/auth server are sparc2's). AND, how might I get the pwd into my prompt? I know it's kind of weenie, but I'm used to it! TIA. Regards, --Jerry From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 17 12:16:39 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:41:52 -0500 Received: from optima.CS.Arizona.EDU ([192.12.69.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293462>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:16:58 -0500 Received: from wolf.CS.Arizona.EDU by optima.CS.Arizona.EDU (5.65c/15) via SMTP id AA11556; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:16:42 MST Received: from localhost (jdavis@localhost) by wolf.cs.arizona.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA14778; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:16:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:16:39 -0500 From: Jim Davis Subject: 3/50s as Plan 9 terminals? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We have a number of Sun 3/50s, currently running as X terminals, that will be surplus soon. There's a mention of Sydney University running an older version of Plan 9 on Sun 3s in Pike's "The Various Ports" paper; has anyone ported the current release to 3/50s? -- Jim Davis | "1.1, 1.2, 1.3, let's rock!" jdavis@cs.arizona.edu | -- Elma 'Cooder' Fingerwood From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 17 16:55:33 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3014>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 17:21:01 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292285>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:56:07 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id QAA23460 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:55:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA26988; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:55:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:55:33 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: Brazil? To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <94Feb17.112924pst.5572@cesium.clock.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Feb 1994, Sean Doran wrote: > I'm fairly sure that I was being told about post-Brazil things (better > networking including a working IP multiplexor, PPP and NFS, colour support > and better graphics models, bug fixes, a more solid 486 port) when Hmm, would this be the cause of the delay we have in getting our paperwork back? Any idea on when this stuff is supposed to hit the shelves (so to speak) or is this out already? The hardware compt list is progressing, I'll clean it up and post it in a couple of days. vijay From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 17 13:53:41 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:23:27 -0500 Received: from postman.osf.org ([130.105.1.152]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293558>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:01:50 -0500 Received: from sulphur.osf.org by postman.osf.org (5.64+/OSF 1.0) id AA04287; Thu, 17 Feb 94 13:54:15 -0500 Received: by sulphur.osf.org (1.37.109.4/4.7) id AA06275; Thu, 17 Feb 94 13:53:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 13:53:41 -0500 From: rsalz@osf.org Message-Id: <9402171853.AA06275@sulphur.osf.org> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Brazil? Who can say anything about Brazil? All I heard is that it is a followon that fixes all the things that were not right with Plan 9. (I would call errstr a step backward from international support, myself.) /r$ From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Thu Feb 17 14:29:20 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:29:29 -0500 Received: from cesium.clock.org ([130.43.2.43]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294158>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:07:45 -0500 Received: by cesium.clock.org id <5572>; Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:29:24 -0800 From: Sean Doran To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Brazil? Message-Id: <94Feb17.112924pst.5572@cesium.clock.org> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 14:29:20 -0500 I thought Brazil was the CD ROM distribution that is already out the door. I'm fairly sure that I was being told about post-Brazil things (better networking including a working IP multiplexor, PPP and NFS, colour support and better graphics models, bug fixes, a more solid 486 port) when I was at USENIX, but then my memory is notoriously flakey. Sean. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 21 11:03:06 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:20:19 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292236>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:03:20 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA29648 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:03:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id LAA07248; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:03:06 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:03:06 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Hardware compatibility list To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Added: Systems - Systems/setups that work with plan 9. The purpose of this list is to maintain a database of hardware that is known to work with plan 9. This should make life easier for those people contemplating the purchase of new hardware. Most of this list is taken directly from what Forsyth sent me. Please do not deluge him with mail, reply to me and I'll try to set up a mechanism to distribute this stuff. The list is starting out for the most selfish of reasons, since I am in the market for some hardware to run plan 9, I thought it would be a good idea to find out what to get. This list will concentrate mostly on the 386/486 clone hardware. While the 386/486 machines are looked upon with derision, they provide the cheapest hardware to run plan 9. However, most of the hardware is only tested with, and comes with drivers for, DOS and Windows, and thus may not work with plan 9. This list details the stuff that works with plan 9. BeginBlurb: Plan 9 on a Mac. No more futzing around. I could deal with plan9 running on the new cheap 68040 Quadra's or the LC's. End Blurb. Note: Our paperwork still hasn't arrived yet. And we even have the hardware available, which I think is a first in the history of our school. Contributors: Most of this hardware list comes from forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk who has done yeoman work to contributing to this list. Actually, come to think of it, his is about the only contribution ;) Here is the list of hardware that will work with plan 9. Other hardware may work with plan 9, but this list will only list stuff that is known to work or stuff that I need confirmation on. ----------------------------------------------------- Bus: ISA VESA EISA (may work with ISA Cards, need confirmation) ----------------------------------------------------- CPU: Intel AMD - To be tested by Forsyth Cyrix - Ditto IBM SLC - Has been tested and is known to work. ------------------------------------------------------ Video Cards: This is the trickiest part. SVGA cards all have different ways of configuring and operating high-resolution modes (higher than 640x480 VGA). ET4000 SVGA cards work. S3 911 cards work, with some changes to devvga.c and lib/vga. The SVGA mode is, ``horrible, just horrible.'' Paradise cards (reportedly) work. Diamond Stealth Pro cards work, with some changes to devvga.c and lib/vga. This is from Gary Capell. ------------------------------------------------------ Ethernet cards: WD SMC NE2000 clones (Reset port address it uses might not work on some clones) 3Com 3C509 Etherlink III (need to get some fixes to use the driver under very heavy loads) 3Com 3C503 -- Avoid this one ------------------------------------------------------------ Hard Disk Controllers: Ultrastor 14F SCSI (driver is available by ftp) Adaptec 1542B/Buslogic 542B (driver is available, but hasn't been used very much) Forsyth has added the driver for the Ultrastor 14F. He has used it on both cpu and terminal machines, and also on the file server, running Fujitsu 2624FA disks, Seagate 3283N and Sun CDROM drives. Standard IDE controllers should work. -------------------------------------------------------------- Memory: 8-16 megs should be adequate. More is better. -------------------------------------------------------------- Modems: High speed modems will work but the kernel does not take advantage of the FIFO's in the 16550 UARTS. Forsyth can supply the diffs and the appropriate changes that will work for `hayes', which work fine upto 38400. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Diskettes: Stick with 3.5" 1.44 meg or 5.25". Plan 9 does not work too well with 2.88 meg 3.5". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Disks: The pc system on the distribution (Jan 1993 version) supports IDE disks. The IDE driver has a bug in it that causes it to fail on very old Seagate 42 Meg drives (fixed by Forsyth). Modern IDE drives work just fine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Systems: Forsyth has gotten plan 9 running on an IBM 486SLC2/66 (IBM Path chipset) ISA motherboard. This chipset is IBM's own and the CPU is not Intel's. The only trick is that you need to select the Fast mode of the A20 Gate option in the BIOS options. Plan 9 doesn't run long with the `Normal' A20 setting. Also set the OS/2 option as the motherboard manual suggests. Forsyth couldn't figure out what it does, but it is probably a good idea to do it. He is currently running a domain name service on this machine. : Stephen Gallimore has the following setup: Elonex 486/33 8MB RAM, SMC Combo Ethernet card, 210 MB IDE drive. Headland (Video 7) local bus SVGA. There are some problems with kernel crashes on this setup and the video is a bit suspect (pvga/nec4 800x600 setup is being used, this gives the wrong aspect for the monitor). Needs a proper vga database entry for the card. This setup is using an SGI 210/VGX as the fileserver over u9fs, although the local disk is being used as well. : Bernd Waldbauer has plan 9 running on a standard 386DX box, with a noname ET4000 and an SMC Ethernet card. He gets 1024x768 on an EIZO F550i. --- This is the list as it stands. If you have plan 9 running on different hardware, please send me details. War stories welcomed, to go into the war stories list. I presently have Forsyth's war story. More input welcomed. I will be looking at putting this stuff up for anon ftp when I have sufficient volume. If there is sufficient interest, I'll post up the war stories that I have. -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Mon Feb 21 23:14:11 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3013>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 23:25:13 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293651>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 23:14:22 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA11761 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 23:14:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id XAA09219; Mon, 21 Feb 1994 23:14:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 23:14:11 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Finally To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We just got in our licence agreement in today, got it checked out, signed and ready to send back to Bell Labs tomorrow. More to the point, I also got funding and approval to spend about $20000 in purchasing some PCs and want the input from the people on the list as to what sort of hardware would you recommend? If the maintainer of the comptability list got some uncompatible hardware... talk about egg on face. Specifically, CD-ROM - Should I pony up for an UltraStor 14F + ext. CDROM or are there better alternatives available? (This leads to a chicken and Egg problem. Forsyth has written the 14F drivers, but how to use them without having a running plan 9 system first? heh) Any horror stories, caveats, bring em up now and they'll go into the list. excuse my babbling, finally something has crystallized. -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed Feb 23 10:50:30 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3014>; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:07:01 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292666>; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:50:52 -0500 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA03085 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:50:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id KAA14604; Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:50:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:50:30 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Video Cards To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok, I am writing up a spec for the machines we are going to buy. Anyone (forsyth, capell, waldbauer, the good folks reading this at plan9.att.com etc) have any recommendations as to what sort of local bus card I should spring for? I know ET4000 localbus works, are there any others that work better/faster? Most people are trying to sell us Diamond pro or ATI. I know diamond cards work, (capell), but in our licensing agreement, it says you can't export code outside the country and capell et al are in Australia. Or are the diffs/changes not subject to the agreement? I would like to get the Diamond cards or ATI's if possible. (As you can see, I am not too familiar with the PC hardware side of things, I do most of my work on unix workstations/servers). -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Sun Feb 27 15:50:14 1994 Return-Path: cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Received: from psuvax1.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.4]) by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Sun, 27 Feb 1994 16:07:55 -0500 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292717>; Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:50:52 -0500 Received: from rpc30.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc30.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.50]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id PAA11584 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:50:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc30.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id PAA16169; Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:50:15 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:50:14 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Updates, a note about VSTa To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII After asking around, we are probably going to order a local clone with ET4000 based VESA localbus cards, big hard drives (ide) and lotsa RAM. The war stories are here (experiences with installing plan 9 on intel hardware, if there is sufficient interest, I will post to the mailing list.) If you have plan 9 running on a PC and are not Bernd, Forsyth or Capell, please email me with a short story about your experience. I am collecting all this stuff and will probably put it up for anon ftp, along with nofileserver.ps etc. BTW: is there an archive of this mailing list somewhere? Here is an operating system that is trying to incorporate ideas from both QNX (a very nice microkernel OS) and Plan 9. The name is VSTa and more information is available under ftp.cisco.com:/vandys/vsta/vsta_intro.ps The leading / before vandys is very important. Cisco have a very weird, supposedly secure ftp set up and unless you know the paths, you'll probably not make it. Vijay Gill vijay@umbc.edu From 9fans-owner Tue Mar 1 19:52:55 1994 Received: from Xenon.Stanford.EDU ([36.28.0.25]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294091>; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:47:17 -0500 Received: by Xenon.Stanford.EDU (5.61+IDA/25-CS-eef) id AA10328; Tue, 1 Mar 94 16:47:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:47:03 -0500 From: Sean Quinlan Message-Id: <9403020047.AA10328@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu There is a problem with the plan9 memory management system for the PC due to one of the brain dead features of the 386 architecture. In particular, the R/W bit in a user page table entry is ignored when the processor is in supervisor mode. This means that copy on write will not work when the kernel is copying into user space. For example the following code segment exhibits the problem. #include #include char buf[1024]; main() { int i; if (fork() == 0) { /* make sure memory is allocated RONLY */ i = buf[0]; read(0, buf, 1024); print("%s\n", buf); exits(0); } /* wait a second so the child completes */ sleep(1000); buf[1023] = 0; print("parent -> %s\n", buf); } On plan 9 for the pc, the data read into buf will incorrectly appear in both the child and parent process. The 486 (and higher?) fixed the problem but to maintain compatibility it defaults to the 386 behavior. On a 486 you need to set bit 16 in CR0 to get the correct behavior for the R/W bit. Of course, if you have a 386, then copy on write can not be fixed, but you can still run plan9 with a copy on reference scheme... unfortunately, this means your 386 machine runs slower and requires more memory... The complete fix of the problem, thanks to Dave Presotto, follows: Here's the changes. It works on a couple of 486's and 386's so its probably right. In l.s (around line 131) change ORL $0X80000000,AX ANDL $~(0x8|0x2),AX /* TS=0, MP=0 */ to ORL $0X80010000,AX ANDL $~(0x40000000|0x20000000|0x8|0x2),AX /* CD=0, NW=0, TS=0, MP=0 */ This also turns on internal caching in case it was off. In l.s add the routine /* * return cpu type (what is a pentium?) */ TEXT x86(SB),$0 PUSHFL MOVL 0(SP),AX ORL $0x40000,AX PUSHL AX POPFL PUSHFL POPL AX ANDL $0x40000,AX JZ is386 MOVL $486,AX JMP done is386: MOVL $386,AX done: POPFL RET This returns the number 386 or 486 depending. I guess it'll return 586 also when I get a chance at a Pentium. In fns.h add a definition for it: int x86(void); In main.c in confinit() change conf.copymode = 0; /* copy on write */ to switch(x86()){ case 386: conf.copymode = 1; /* copy on reference */ break; default: case 486: conf.copymode = 0; /* copy on write */ break; } and you're done. From 9fans-owner Thu Mar 3 12:53:47 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294945>; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:41:00 -0500 Received: from rpc30.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc30.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.50]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA11973 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:40:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by rpc30.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id MAA00939; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:40:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:40:52 -0500 From: Vijay Gill To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is the deal here: ---cut Subject: Re: prices for Entre PCs [too expensive for our taste] The only options available are 1) to wait till summer. We will be doing a new rfp and awarding the contract to a mainstream player yet to be decided. 2) bid something they don't have. I just got in a pentium a few weeks ago because they weren't selling them at the time, or 3) Look at buying a machine that is officially supported by something like nextstep or solaris and state on the requisition you are planning to run that OS ---cut I have approval to get 4 machines but the local dealer with wich we have a contract with is gouging us, so to get out of the coils, we have to get machines that are NeXTSTEP/Solaris certified, and most of these machines come with weird mainstream cards. I need your help in getting a list of video cards that work. I am not that good (yet) with intel hardware and would prefer the minimum of problems getting it up to run first. So if you have any YES - This card runs, please mail me it. I would really love if the ATI UltraPro or something like that worked. Diamond is not too well liked here so thats out. I was hoping for something like the list of supported cards direct from the horses mouth so to speak. The only NeXTSTEP machine that has ET4000/W32 etc chipset is the NEC Image series, which are not as much bang for the buck as Gateway 2000 or the other clones. I know Compaq Qvision probably won't work, so we can't get the Compaq Deskpro's. (Local bus is good) Any idea what hardware the plan9 folks are running (x86). Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Thu Mar 3 22:29:29 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295550>; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:25:30 -0500 Received: from umbc8.umbc.edu (vijay@umbc8.umbc.edu [130.85.60.8]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA08616 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:25:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (vijay@localhost) by umbc8.umbc.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) id WAA08458; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:25:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:25:14 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Plan 9: The future To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII First of all: A minor gripe. I made the mistake of installing sam and giving the plan 9 papers (all of them) to the programmers at the place where I work. After a month, I was approached by the manager of our programmers asking if I could install plan 9 on the machines as he was getting tired of hearing the constant demands for more plan 9 stuff from them. Apparently the set up that I am in charge of (3 6 processor AViiONS, with 1 gig of ram, 36 gig Clariion disk arrays, optical juke boxes etc with a lot of the smaller Aviions on the programmers desks + the odd DEC 3000 Alpha box) maps well into the plan 9 model and it turns out that the programmers seem to agree with what the designers of plan 9 had to say. They use sam exclusively now and want more of the same. I was sitting in a meeting for 2 hours today trying to convince them that as yet, they could not get plan 9 and trying to calm down 8 irate programmers dosed on caffine is not a task for the faint of heart. A heartfelt request from me. Please make plan 9 available. Please. I don't do much programming, my forte is adminstration, but plan 9 seems to have hit our programmers where it counts and they are starting to make it a bit hot for me. Our manager is willing to pay for plan 9 and pay well. The crowning touch came when I showed them the letter Bob Kummerfield wrote about the time he attended INET93 and used his Compaq LTE in San Francisco to get the same exact environment (including CPU/file servers) there as he does in Australia. Our people would pay kill for that. Without saying more, I would venture that we pay AT&T well in the 6 figures per year for leased lines for our product installed in New Jersey ;) Ok, so it was not a minor gripe. On to more, bigger better things. I was reading over Andy Tannenbaum's papers on Amoeba, some papers on Chorus MiiX, and QNX (my other favourite operating system) and I was struck by how easy they make it to have multi computers with SSS (Single Site Semantics). A group of non shared memory cpu modules on a backplane acting as one computer. This would grow to include hundreds of CPU's, whereas the shared memory computers start to run out of bandwidth after a few dozen or so. Is there support for plan 9 for something like this? And finally: What next for plan 9? What do the designers of plan 9 envison next? -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Fri Mar 4 10:58:28 1994 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293188>; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:58 -0500 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu (penfold.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.249]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA04341; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:38 -0500 Received: from localhost (arnold@localhost) by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA06687; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:33 -0500 From: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) Message-Id: <199403041536.KAA06687@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: Vijay Gill's 63-line message on Mar 3, 10:25pm X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Vijay Gill Subject: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu You are relatively new to the list, so you may not know about 9term and the customized gwm from australia. These "help" in making looking Unix look more plan 9 like. First, you need to get the 9term dist from ftp.cs.su.oz.au in I think /pub/matty. This is a terminal emulator for X that behaves like an 8.5 window. It's built on top of sam's libframe and libXg. I don't think it comes with aviion support, so you may have some work to do there. Next you need John Mackin's customized gwm, which is a window manager that makes X look a lot like a blit. It was in the top level directory of civil.su.oz.au and I have it mirrored in ftp.cc.gatech.edu, get /pub/adr/gwm-dist.tar. Finally, you need a decent shell, either 'rc' or 'es'. Both are archived at toronto somewhere, I don't remember where. I use 'es', although I for the most part just type commands at it, and don't have the time I'd like to take advantage of its power. There are mailing lists run off toronto for both rc and es, although they've been quite quiet lately. (Alas, the two authors of the programs both work at start-up companies, which means they've had little time to do the real work of caring for their programs. :-) Anyway, the combination of sam, 9term+es, and the window manager give a *very* consistent feel to the environment, with a nice minimalist feel to the whole thing. I've been using this exclusively for about a year. The only time I use xterm is to read news, or if I'm at home to dial in to work. Enjoy! Arnold Robbins --- Continuing Education, College of Computing Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0280 Phone: +1 404 894 9214 (has voice mail) E-mail: arnold.robbins@cc.gatech.edu FAX: +1 404 853 9378 "I'm just a hitchhiker along the Information Superhighway." -- Me From 9fans-owner Fri Mar 4 13:02:04 1994 Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu ([128.100.102.51]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293633>; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:31:16 -0500 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <24166>; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:30:39 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) In-reply-to: arnold's message of Fri, 04 Mar 1994 10:36:32 -0500. <199403041536.KAA06687@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:30:26 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Mar4.123039est.24166@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Es and rc can be ftp'd from ftp.sys.utoronto.ca in /pub/es and /pub/rc; rc can also be gotten from viz.tamu.edu:/pub/rc. The mailing lists are (es-request rc-request)^@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu. There's also a mailing list sam run here; send mail to sam-fans-request. - cks From 9fans-owner Fri Mar 4 13:41:41 1994 Received: from postman.osf.org ([130.105.1.152]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293672>; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:20:14 -0500 Received: from sulphur.osf.org by postman.osf.org (5.64+/OSF 1.0) id AA13304; Fri, 4 Mar 94 13:09:23 -0500 Received: by sulphur.osf.org (1.37.109.4/4.7) id AA03167; Fri, 4 Mar 94 13:08:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:08:32 -0500 From: rsalz@osf.org Message-Id: <9403041808.AA03167@sulphur.osf.org> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Plan 9 futures >From Unixgram X, a copyrighted paragon of fleet street/tabloid/nat'l enquirer muck-raking: AT&T is working to seal its first commercial deal for Plan 9. No direct quote, but Unigram.X says Dennis Ritchie told them that they are negotiating with an unidentified company to bring the system up on a new machine where they don't have to worry about compatibility. Hints and inferences of cable-tv info-superhighway, the box on top of your TV set, etc, as well as remote portable systems. /r$ From 9fans-owner Fri Mar 4 14:06:05 1994 Received: from munnari.oz.au ([128.250.1.21]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295676>; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:45:05 -0500 Received: from staff.cs.su.oz.au by munnari.oz.au with MHSnet (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA20991; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 05:22:30 +1100 (from gary@staff.cs.su.oz.au) Message-Id: <9403041822.20991@munnari.oz.au> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 00:19:17 -0500 From: gary@staff.cs.su.oz.au (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu rc, 9term, sam make for a nicer Unix. I still catch myself trying to use chords of mouse buttons in 9term. Anyone feel like taking a stab at an acme-like window-manager/editor/environment? From 9fans-owner Sat Mar 5 01:22:27 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293317>; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 01:16:27 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2535>; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 01:15:57 -0500 To: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) cc: Vijay Gill , 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 1994 10:36:32 EST." <199403041536.KAA06687@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Mar5.011557est.2535@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | I've been using this exclusively for about a year. | The only time I use xterm is to read news, or if I'm at home to dial in | to work. Me too, except its emacs for news and xterm for talk. :-) From 9fans-owner Sat Mar 5 08:58:50 1994 Received: from munnari.oz.au ([128.250.1.21]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292269>; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 08:52:27 -0500 Received: from staff.cs.su.oz.au by munnari.oz.au with MHSnet (5.83--+1.3.1+0.50) id AA29813; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 21:24:14 +1100 (from matty@staff.cs.su.oz.au) To: schwartz@groucho.cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <19940305211848.6903.frobozz@staff.cs.su.oz.au> In-Reply-To: <94Mar5.011557est.2535@groucho.cse.psu.edu> From: matty@cs.su.oz.au (James Matthew Farrow) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 06:18:48 -0500 X-Name: James Matthew Farrow X-Mailer: Frobozz Magic Mailer [1.5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu To: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) cc: Vijay Gill , 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 1994 10:36:32 EST." <199403041536.KAA06687@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 01:15:50 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Mar5.011557est.2535@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | I've been using this exclusively for about a year. | The only time I use xterm is to read news, or if I'm at home to dial in | to work. Me too, except its emacs for news and xterm for talk. :-) Ah, perhaps it's time for me to tidy up gtalk and make it available. It's an interface I wrote for talk a while back built on top of libXg/libtext. It hasn't got bells and whistles but if there's interest I can put it up. For those who are interested I've found some time to look at 9term. I'm tidying that up (and I've hopefully fixed the echo problem...) and trying to nail down David Hogan to add 9wm compatibility. Gary (and others) have been asking me about chording too so I've at least thought about it. So there should be a new 9term bundle out soon. Now's the time to nag me again about the bugs you've been wanting fixed. ;-) Matty. From 9fans-owner Sun Mar 6 23:41:39 1994 Received: from steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.33]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296050>; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:35:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (jwjohn@localhost) by steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id UAA11857 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 20:35:45 -0800 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <199403070435.UAA11857@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: Lance Error arrgghhh! To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:35:45 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1513 Hi 9'ers, We've got two sparc2's that serve as our main fs and cpu/auth server (with various ipx's as cpuservers and terms and pc's as terms). I'm hoping there might be someone a little more hardware oriented who might offer some insight. With increasing regularity (say four times in a day lately) the message "lance error #88c3" appears on the fs and essentially brings the whole system down. The equipment all responds, "connection timed out", and requires a reboot of everything! We've tracked the error to lance.c in /sys/src/fs/ss and have debugged it enough to say that the MERR bit is the culprit. According to "Ethernet/ IEE 802.3 Family; 1992 World Network Data Book/Handbook", pg 1-22; MERR MEMORY ERROR is set when the LANCE is the Bus Master and has not _____ received READY within 25.6 us after asserting the address on the DAL lines. When a memory error is detected, the receiver and transmitter are turned off and an interrupt is generated if NEA=1. MERR is READ/CLEAR ONLY, and is set by the LANCE and cleared by writing a "1" into the bit. Writing a "0" has not effect. It is _____ cleared by RESET or by setting the STOP bit. Has anyone had a similar problem? What might be possible solutions? Is the problem more likely to be hardware or software? Our best guess now would be to swap the fs and cpu server in the hopes that if indeed it's a bad lance on the fs, at least we wouldn't continue to lose the whole net. Comments? Suggestions? TIA. Cheers, --Jerry From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 7 08:30:10 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292185>; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:22:49 -0500 From: mhw@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: >From: Mark H. Wilkinson Subject: Re: Faking it under Unix (was Re: Plan 9: The future) To: matty@cs.su.oz.au Sender: "Mark H. Wilkinson" X-Mailer: Sendmail/ream v4.12bv Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Gary (and > others) have been asking me about chording too so I've at least thought > about it. After doing the chord patch for sam I found it quite easy to do the same thing for 9term. It relies on the one line change to libframe/frselect.c to get it to work. I've not mailed it to the list though because I'm not really happy about the way it works. If you study it closely, cut and paste in 9term is actually inconsistent with sam in that pasted text does not stay selected (at least in the version I run). I did a patch where chording buttons 2 and 3 did cut and paste and found I didn't use it very much after all. I know run a version where button 3 does send without appending a \n to the text and this works quite nicely as it support picking things from the previous text to be entered into the new command. It does annoy a little when you want to edit some text for input to a command though. Anyway, I can mail you both patches if you want (they're not that much different anyway) and you can see what you think. I find 9term is dissimilar enough from sam to require a slightly different style of working. Look forward to the new version... -Mark. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Mark H. Wilkinson : Research student in user University of York, England : interface management systems From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 7 21:17:52 1994 Received: from steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.33]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294383>; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:09:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (jwjohn@localhost) by steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id SAA23599 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 18:09:30 -0800 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <199403080209.SAA23599@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: U9fs Compile Help? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:09:29 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1655 Hi, we've essentially got plan9 right out of the box (not a lot of kernel changes). Anyway, while trying to compile u9fs on an hp-715 running hp-ux 9.01, the following error is displayed: cc: "u9fs.c", line 50: error 1000: Unexpected symbol: "DIR". cc: "u9fs.c", line 50: error 1573: Type of "dir" is undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 50: error 1578: Size of member is unknown. cc: "u9fs.c", line 67: error 1574: Unknown size for "stbuf". cc: "u9fs.c", line 67: error 1578: Size of member is unknown. cc: "u9fs.c", line 369: error 1000: Unexpected symbol: "int". cc: "u9fs.c", line 368: error 1588: "DIR" undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 368: error 1588: "dir" undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 369: error 1588: "m" undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 372: error 1558: The ! operator takes a scalar operand. cc: "u9fs.c", line 369: error 1588: "trunc" undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 376: error 1530: Undefined struct or union. cc: "u9fs.c", line 376: error 1588: "S_IFCHR" undefined. cc: "u9fs.c", line 376: error 1563: Expression in if must be scalar. cc: "u9fs.c", line 380: error 1567: Switch expression must be an integral type. cc: "u9fs.c", line 401: warning 563: Argument #1 is not the correct type. The source has been updated with some changes Rob Pike sent out last August(?), and is otherwise unchanged. Here is the modified makefile: CFLAGS=-N -I. -I/usr/include -I/usr/include/sys -Aa -DBIGEND -DSYSV -DNEEDPROTO -DLOG='"/tmp/u9fs.log"' u9fs: u9fs.o conv.o memmove.o mfmt.o cc -o u9fs u9fs.o conv.o memmove.o mfmt.o -lbsd %.o: %.c u.h libc.h 9p.h cc -c $(CFLAGS) $< Any suggestions, please? Any "gotcha's" I should be aware of? TIA. Cheers, --Jerry From 9fans-owner Wed Mar 16 15:29:24 1994 Received: from steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu ([132.241.1.33]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295291>; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:15:40 -0500 Received: (from jwjohn@localhost) by steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu (8.6.7/8.6.6) id MAA17693 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 12:15:29 -0800 From: Jerry W Johnson Message-Id: <199403162015.MAA17693@steroid.ecst.csuchico.edu> Subject: SuperSparc & MicroSparc Ports? To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:15:28 -0500 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 181 Hi, does plan9 run on the Sun superSPARC architecture, like of the Sparcstation 10? AND, was the port ever completed to run the microSparc machines, classic & lx? Regards, --Jerry From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 21 02:27:38 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291933>; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 02:18:21 -0500 Received: from umbc9.umbc.edu (vijay@f-umbc9.umbc.edu [130.85.3.12]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id CAA10839; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 02:18:18 -0500 Received: (vijay@localhost) by umbc9.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id CAA20435; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 02:18:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 02:18:16 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: SSS (via plan 9) To: Steve Simon cc: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <199403210653.BAA10656@ds1.gl.umbc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > HI, > Reading through backissues of the Plan9 list I caught a reference > to SSS (Single Site Semantics), could you give me a couple of references > to this... More information on SSS can be found on ftp.chorus.fr, look among their index for references to implementing Chorus on the ipsc/386 and the T9000, and on loosely coupled multiprocessors. The papers are: UNIX on a Loosely Coupled Architecture: The Chorus/MiX Approach (CS/TR-91-49) Chorus/MiX, A Distributed UNIX, on Multicomputers (CS/TR-92-10) Andy "what have we learnt" Tanenbaum has also done work in this area with the Amoeba Operating system (I don't have the papers handy, but here is a reference) Tannenbaum - Andrew Tanenbaum, Rob van Renese, and Hans van Staveren. {\it A Retrospective and Evaluation of the Amoeba Distributed Operating System}, Techical Report, Vrije University, Amsterdam, October, 1989, pp. 27. Another good paper is: Hildebrand - Dan Hildebrand. {\it An Architectural Overview of QNX.} The proceedings of the Usenix Workshop on Micro--Kernels \& Other Kernel Architectures, Seattle, April, 1992. This, and some amoeba papers, are also available for anon ftp on ftp.cse.ucsc.edu under pub/qnx and pub/amoeba. More info can by found by doing an archie search on amoeba. Basically all it boils down to is (a gross oversimplification) making loosely coupled non shared memory processors (possibly several single board computers in a VME chassis) feel like a single computer. This does seem to be a good way to go, shared memory multiprocessors tend to run out of memory to processor bandwidth. I am not sure if Plan 9 can do SSS, perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong. > Human: Stephen F. Simon Email: S.Simon@unsw.edu.au > Tel: 697 5744 (Provisional) Fax: 663 1222 > GPO: CANCES, Mech Eng building, UNSW, Po Box 1, Kensington, 2033 > Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Thu Mar 24 14:39:46 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294224>; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:28:12 -0500 Received: from rpc40.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc40.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.60]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA05241; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:22:25 -0500 Received: (vijay@localhost) by rpc40.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id OAA18342; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:22:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:22:19 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: re: Where can I find infos about plan9? To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> cc: hw@plato.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 14:18:23 -0500 (EST) From: hw@plato.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de (Heiko Wengler) Newsgroups: comp.os.misc Subject: Where can i find infos about Plan9? Date: 24 Mar 1994 11:48:56 GMT Organization: Uni-Dortmund, Chemietechnik Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2mrun8$7io@unidoct.Chemietechnik.Uni-Dortmund.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: plato.chemietechnik.uni-dortmund.de Hello! Where can i ftp infos about Plan9? (And i don't mean the manpages or so, but news from 1994.) Thanx Heiko Wengler PS: I read in a german unix magazine that Plan9 will be released at the end of this year to the general public. Because of that i wonder if there is uptodate information about the current Plan9 anywhere. -- There is more information to be found about plan 9 from the plan9 mailing list: Mail 9fans-request@cse.psu.edu with the subject subscribe to join. From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 00:34:58 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294695>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:27:43 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:27:12 -0500 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: Senseless benchmarks X-Mailer: exmh version 1.3gamma 3/18/94 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:27:03 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Mar28.002712est.2542@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Just for fun, I ran the following program on a machine running SunOS and on a machine running Plan 9 (with obvious alterations to get it to compile.) I was hoping to see Plan 9 go faster, but they took about the same time (10 seconds on a Sparcstation I). Has anyone done more thoughtful benchmarks comparing the two kinds of systems? /* #include #include #define exit exits */ main() { int i; for (i=0; i<1000; ++i) { if (fork()) { wait(0); } else { exit(0); } } } P.S. reason #2 why plan 9 is not my favorite operating system "vc, xc, etc". given that you will usually use an mkfile most of the time anyway, why not name them something sensible like "sparc-cc, mips-cc, etc-cc"? From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 00:58:30 1994 Received: from metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.64.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292657>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:53:58 -0500 Received: from basser.cs.su.oz.au by metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU with MHSnet id AA20689 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu); Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:53:09 +1000 Message-Id: <199403280553.AA20689@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:49:18 -0500 From: piers@basser.cs.su.oz.au (Piers Lauder) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Senseless benchmarks Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:27:03 -0500 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Mar28.002712est.2542@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Just for fun, I ran the following program on a machine running SunOS and on a machine running Plan 9 (with obvious alterations to get it to compile.) I was hoping to see Plan 9 go faster, but they took about the same time (10 seconds on a Sparcstation I). ... I just did that on an SS-1000 running SunOS 5.2, and it took 17.3 seconds. From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 01:14:11 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292831>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 01:07:24 -0500 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <2542>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 01:06:47 -0500 To: piers@basser.cs.su.oz.au (Piers Lauder) cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Senseless benchmarks In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:49:18 EST." <199403280553.AA20689@metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> X-Face: /:c""]'pLDG"M1[[aEFnkj?8sKTY0V4gnpT.D;CY]!sUJ*+uJ02!OX?zLxM_cn`#G`H,|2L \?RsN=DhXG9*!ZMr#.S=c>[ Message-Id: <94Mar28.010647est.2542@groucho.cse.psu.edu> > I just did that on an SS-1000 running SunOS 5.2, and it took 17.3 seconds. Make sure you statically link it. Otherwise you pay for all sorts of shared library overhead. From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 03:02:49 1994 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292895>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 02:56:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 02:52:33 -0500 From: David Hogan To: Scott Schwartz cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Senseless benchmarks Message-Id: <94Mar28.025654est.292895@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> > > I just did that on an SS-1000 running SunOS 5.2, and it took 17.3 seconds. > > Make sure you statically link it. Otherwise you pay for all sorts > of shared library overhead. I just tried it, and it runs twice as fast (around 8 seconds) if I statically link. Plan 9 on a lowly sparc ELC runs the test in about 4 secs -- twice as fast again! I heard some rumor about fork on Solaris taking 1/10th of a second around the time that we got the SS-1000s, but perhaps this was fixed in a later release of Solaris. From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 10:14:16 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292273>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:07:03 -0500 From: rob@plan9.research.att.com To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:06:43 -0500 Message-Id: <94Mar28.100703est.292273@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> the sun is perhaps a poor choice for this test because its mmu and caches are pessimal for anything involving lots of processes. the cost of flushing caches and mmu will dominate any operating system performance. in other words, the hardware is so expensive that software hardly matters. i tried the test on our challenge multiprocessors. 10,000 fork/exit/wait. plan 9: real time 1.32 seconds. unix: real time 41.1 seconds. the unix system had more load, but was still pretty quiet. system time was 27.9 seconds. on our seven-year-old SGI power machines, the test takes 6.26 seconds. the time is about 4 seconds on a single-processor MIPS magnum of the same vintage, so the multiprocessor part isn't very important. now scott's test was 1,000 forks on a sun; my test was 10,000. on our at&t gnots, with 25MHz 68020's and awful mmu, it takes 75 seconds to do 10,000. our modern sparcstation-2 machine takes 34 seconds. (a newer machine than the magnum that takes 4 seconds.) you see, suns suck. they really do. the processors are borderline OK but the rest of the system hurts. yesterday, quite independently, i was doing some tests of large-scale memory bandwidth and the suns were laughable. as for compiler names, the scheme we have is simple, consistent, and parsimonious. if crypticness is the complaint, remember you're talking about a C compiler. From 9fans-owner Mon Mar 28 12:45:07 1994 Received: from epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu ([129.105.5.104]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293008>; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:29:59 -0500 Received: from olympus.eecs.nwu.edu by epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0-proxy) id AA27054; Mon, 28 Mar 94 11:29:38 CST From: quanstro@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Erik Quanstrom) Received: by olympus.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/client-1.5) id AA13044; Mon, 28 Mar 94 11:23:46 CST Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:23:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9403281723.AA13044@olympus.eecs.nwu.edu> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: fork test Apparently-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu just a little more evidence that suns suck. when the 670mps came out, i remember doing a fork test on a vax 11/780 running xinu and the sun running sunos4.1.xx. the sun as i remember was about 10x as slow as the vax, and it was even slower if the child process touched memory. and the 11/780 is a 1 mip machine. From 9fans-owner Sun Apr 3 00:34:42 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293385>; Sun, 3 Apr 1994 00:28:16 -0500 Received: from umbc9.umbc.edu (vijay@f-umbc9.umbc.edu [130.85.3.12]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id AAA13918 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 3 Apr 1994 00:26:52 -0500 Received: (vijay@localhost) by umbc9.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id AAA10500; Sun, 3 Apr 1994 00:26:49 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 00:26:48 -0500 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Plan 9 vs. Adversary To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Somehow I've managed to convince people to set up a lab using plan 9 as the base system (plan 9 running on IBM PC Clones). Now a couple of questions I can't answer yet (still waiting on CD). 1. Is there a secure way to authenticate users? (last I read in plan 9 papers was that the authors planned to move to something like kerberos and I've been hearing things about authentication servers. Can anyone update me on this? Also, the papers mention that there is no way for anyone to read/delete files that the user in question has removed permissions from. This leads to a quick question? How do we remove accounts from the system once a class is over? 2. Is there a way to enforce disk quotas? I don't want some malicious user filling up the entire disk and then pretending that it was the output of an infinite loop writing out to disk and that they didn't know that it could do that, hence could we have an extention on our project since the entire class could not do any work? This has happened before. 3. I have some more money coming in and looking at the new Sun announcement, was wondering if there are any plans to support the Sun Classics or Sparcstation 5's? 4. We have very many SGI Indigo and Indy machines just lying idle. Any idea if plan 9 runs on the Indigo Boxes? I know that it runs on the SGI Challenge XL's. We have them, but my hope was that Challenge's also imply support for Indigos ;) 5. Anyone use plan 9 as a general environment for classes? If you do, would you mind sharing some tips/tricks? I have the official annoucement from Sun about their new workstations (Sun Sparcstation 5 and 20's). The Classic has been reduced to $3k and the new sparcstation 5 comes in at around $4k (with half a gig of disk, 16 meg of ram, monitor et al, 70 mz uSparc-II). If anyone is interested, I can mail it out individually. It was also posted to comp.sys.sun.hardware. Sorry to be asking so many (to some, stupid) questions, but I get only one shot at making plan 9 a part of our environment and I've had to call in a lot of favors for this one. -- Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Wed Apr 6 17:16:36 1994 Received: from prism.nmt.edu ([129.138.4.216]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295096>; Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:07:48 -0400 Received: from chelm.cs.nmt (chelm.nmt.edu) by prism.nmt.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA06370; Wed, 6 Apr 94 15:07:36 MDT Received: by chelm.cs.nmt (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA00729; Wed, 6 Apr 94 15:10:01 MDT Message-Id: <9404062110.AA00729@chelm.cs.nmt> From: yodaiken@sphinx.nmt.edu Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:10:00 -0400 Reply_To: yodaiken@chelm.nmt.edu X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: plan9 on nec versa-e Content-Length: 19 Anyone tried this? From 9fans-owner Sat Apr 9 17:52:28 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293667>; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:42:40 -0400 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA25380 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:34:14 -0400 Received: (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id RAA03847; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:34:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:34:09 -0400 From: Vijay Gill Subject: need a script (_conform.map) To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The script given in nofileserver.ps (fixit) that will change the Fxxx and Dxxx names to the real thing doesn't work under awk (dies on the ?:) Under nawk: on the SGI Crimson - no output on the Sun Sparcserver (solaris 2.2) all it prints out is a huge number of blank lines. Anyone got a working fixit script? Or some other way of generating the correct file names? I have downloaded the CD onto a disk served by a HP, accessed from both the Crimson and the SparcServer. Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Sat Apr 9 19:37:41 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293733>; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 19:32:06 -0400 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA26505 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 19:25:06 -0400 Received: (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id TAA04105; Sat, 9 Apr 1994 19:25:02 -0400 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 19:25:01 -0400 From: Vijay Gill Subject: correction to the nofileserver.ps script To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I finally debugged the problem: The _conform.map has filenames starting with Fxxxxxxxxx and Dxxxxxxxxxx The distribution filenames are all lowercase (eg, fxxxxxxxx and dxxxxxxxxxxx) Just edit _conform.map and change all uppercase F and D's to lowercase. It works just fine. Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Sun Apr 10 17:38:15 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293915>; Sun, 10 Apr 1994 17:31:22 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 16:42:52 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: fork test i've just tried the 10,000 fork test on a Sparc Classic unix 156.1 real 136.9 sys 13.5 user dynamically linked 58.7 real 50.4 sys 3.2 user statically linked, dynamically paged executable 58.8 real 51.1 sys 2.8 user statically linked, not dynamically paged image (-n) plan 9 26.9 real 20.4 sys 0.8 user no need to choose the sparc classic has tiny caches, and a sleazy implementation of the Reference MMU (TLB context flushes are implemented as complete TLB flushes). i might revise the MMU code, but i don't think it will help this test on this model of sparc. memmove might be made faster, though; i haven't checked yet. i haven't got figures for the ss/10, since that hardware is different again. From 9fans-owner Thu Apr 14 12:27:34 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293617>; Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:15:44 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <15200>; Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:14:56 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: newcomer rehashing some old questions Message-Id: <94Apr14.121456edt.15200@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:14:35 -0400 Hi. I'm new to this list, and I found a few things in the archive that I'd like to ask about. On 2 Nov 1993, mike@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu wrote: > There is no need for a cpu server to run Plan 9, unless you > want to run daemons that accept calls from the outside world, > for instance for mail delivery or remote logins. There is > no real difference between a terminal and a cpu server; a > cpu server is essentially the same kernel with a different > startup script that starts various daemons. Since auth(8) and cron(8) can run on a terminal, is there any way to make the other daemons (for mail delivery and remote logins) work on one? Perhaps by building some sort of hybrid kernel? The cpu server and terminal kernels are closely related, but what is the difference between them? More than just the graphics driver I guess. I only have 2 Magnums to work with, and I was planning to use one as a terminal, and the other as a file server (with 2 interleaved 200Meg disks). Would this be recommended, or does anyone have a 'better' idea? On Thu, 17 Feb 1994, Sean Doran wrote: > I'm fairly sure that I was being told about post-Brazil things (better > networking including a working IP multiplexor, PPP and NFS, colour support > and better graphics models, bug fixes, a more solid 486 port) when What is Brazil? Is it available? Is it a third release of Plan 9? Thanks, Steve From plan9-fans-owner Fri Apr 15 00:25:57 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296051>; Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:16:09 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:15:32 -0400 To: 9fans Subject: 9fs on the internet Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:15:19 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Apr15.001532edt.3010@groucho.cse.psu.edu> According to the statistics from Merit, there's at least some 9fs traffic on the internet. For March: name port packets bytes 9pfs 564 41350 4358750 If there's anyone who will admit to doing this, do they care to discuss the results? Was performance reasonable, compared to AFS, say? Any security worries? -- Scott From plan9-fans-owner Fri Apr 15 13:29:10 1994 Received: from emmetal.cs.wisc.edu ([128.105.9.35]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292402>; Fri, 15 Apr 1994 13:05:55 -0400 Message-Id: <9404151703.AA22816@emmetal.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from localhost by emmetal.cs.wisc.edu; Fri, 15 Apr 94 12:03:53 -0500 To: Scott Schwartz Cc: 9fans Subject: Re: 9fs on the internet In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:15:19 EDT." <94Apr15.001532edt.3010@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 13:03:50 -0400 From: Bob Kummerfeld In message <94Apr15.001532edt.3010@groucho.cse.psu.edu>, Scott Schwartz writes: >According to the statistics from Merit, there's at least some 9fs >traffic on the internet. For March: > >name port packets bytes >9pfs 564 41350 4358750 > >If there's anyone who will admit to doing this, do they care >to discuss the results? Was performance reasonable, compared >to AFS, say? Any security worries? > >-- Scott It could be me. I have a laptop (Compaq LTE/25e, 486, 200meg disk, 12meg mem) that I carried with me from Sydney to Wisconsin (sabattical leave). I plug it into the ethernet here every now and then and mount a file system back in Sydney. I also took it to the last IETF meeting in Seattle and did the same thing. I've made a new kernal with SLIP support on a machine in Sydney and copied it across. Performance was acceptable but I can't compare it with other systems. Bob. From 9fans-owner Tue Apr 19 13:18:21 1994 Received: from chelm.nmt.edu ([129.138.6.50]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293693>; Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:31:04 -0400 Received: (from yodaiken@localhost) by chelm.nmt.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id KAA06811; Tue, 19 Apr 1994 10:22:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199404191622.KAA06811@chelm.nmt.edu> From: yodaiken@sphinx.nmt.edu Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:22:54 -0400 reply_to: yodaiken@chelm.nmt.edu X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Why compile.c ? Cc: pike@research.att.com What is the rationale for compile.c in the sparc version of Plan9? Why not simply write out the assembly code? From 9fans-owner Tue Apr 19 14:20:16 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293742>; Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:31:32 -0400 From: rob@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:17:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Why compile.c ? Message-Id: <94Apr19.133132edt.293742@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Why? Why do by hand what a machine can do just as well or better? The SPARC MMU is inexcusably badly designed. To make a single kernel that supports all variants one must either write oodles of ugly assembly code, with loops that must be unrolled for speed, or generate code at boot-time tailored to the machine at hand. We chose the latter approach because it's really less code to maintain. I wrote the compiler in just a couple of hours one afternoon. It's very easy stuff. Since some of the code must be generated - for example, cache line sizes vary from model to model - what the hell? Why not generate it all? Easy, and susceptible to adaptation as SUN's creative minds continue to design hardware. From 9fans-owner Thu Apr 21 11:05:55 1994 Received: from waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de ([129.217.4.42]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293033>; Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:46:16 -0400 Received: from oslo.informatik.uni-dortmund.de by waldorf.informatik.uni-dortmund.de with SMTP (Sendmail 8.6.8/UniDo 2.0.14) id QAA17128; Thu, 21 Apr 1994 16:45:54 +0200 From: Dirk Vleugels Message-Id: <9404211447.AA09797@oslo.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Received: by oslo.informatik.uni-dortmund.de id AA09797; Thu, 21 Apr 94 16:47:35 +0200 Subject: PC Dist To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:47:35 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 279 Hi! I looked in the att ftp server for plan 9 and found the pcdist directory empty. Why? Isn't a PC distribution available? If so, where can i get one. And could you give me some hints about the machine requirements to run plan 9. I'm using a 486dx33 with 8M ram. Ciao - Dirk From 9fans-owner Thu Apr 21 11:26:55 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293038>; Thu, 21 Apr 1994 11:17:18 -0400 Received: from umbc9.umbc.edu (vijay@f-umbc9.umbc.edu [130.85.3.12]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA17793 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 21 Apr 1994 11:16:36 -0400 Received: (vijay@localhost) by umbc9.umbc.edu (8.6.8/8.6.5) id LAA17733; Thu, 21 Apr 1994 11:16:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 11:16:21 -0400 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: PC Dist To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <9404211447.AA09797@oslo.informatik.uni-dortmund.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 21 Apr 1994, Dirk Vleugels wrote: > Hi! > > I looked in the att ftp server for plan 9 and found the pcdist directory > empty. Why? Isn't a PC distribution available? If so, where can i get one. > And could you give me some hints about the machine requirements to run > plan 9. I'm using a 486dx33 with 8M ram. > > Ciao > > - Dirk Hmm, I am currently running plan 9 on a generic 486 dx/33 no name clone with 4 megs of ram and 120 megs of hard disk while waiting for our PC's to come in. Using a unix filesever to bootstrap, I now have a stand alone plan 9 system. There are a couple of problems, I keep running out or ram (with a 20 meg swap partiontion), swap /dev/swap doesn't seem to do much for me. The system is nice, but thats about it. For the machine, disable shadow ram, and life will be much easier if you have a magnum to set up as a fileserver. If you don't, you really need a unix system which can run u9fs, this makes life infintely easier when trying to copy over the files. Other than that, I'll let Forsyth, Capel et al, handle this, they are much more familiar with this than I am. Vijay Gill |The (paying) customer is always right. wrath@cs.umbc.edu | - Piercarlo Grandi vijay@gl.umbc.edu | Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get These are my opinions only. | sucked into jet engines. From 9fans-owner Fri Apr 22 08:29:13 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292480>; Fri, 22 Apr 1994 08:22:28 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189476>; Fri, 22 Apr 1994 14:21:46 +0200 Received: from balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26766; Fri, 22 Apr 94 13:44:37 +0200 From: bischof@balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9404221144.AA26766@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> Received: by balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (NX5.67d/NX3.0X) id AA28302; Fri, 22 Apr 94 13:44:32 +0200 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 07:44:32 -0400 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: X11 & plan 9 Exists a X11 port for paln 9? -Hans-Peter From 9fans-owner Wed Apr 27 18:06:36 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296234>; Wed, 27 Apr 1994 17:47:45 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <8433>; Wed, 27 Apr 1994 17:47:20 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: fileserver performance Message-Id: <94Apr27.174720edt.8433@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 1994 17:47:14 -0400 Has anyone benchmarked a Plan 9 file server vs. a u9fs file server? If so, how do they compare? Steve From 9fans-owner Sun May 1 02:39:45 1994 Received: from nic.stolaf.edu ([130.71.128.8]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291764>; Sun, 1 May 1994 02:30:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (guenther@quelle.acc.stolaf.edu [130.71.136.32]) by nic.stolaf.edu (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id BAA28076 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 1 May 1994 01:29:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199405010629.BAA28076@nic.stolaf.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: assorted questions Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 02:29:51 -0400 From: < (Philip Guenther) guenther@stolaf.edu> We've been trying to get plan9 setup in some form here at St Olaf for awhile now, and I've finally got it to the point were I could go through and recompile the kernels, fix the permissions on /adm, etc. Throughout this I've been aquiring a list of questions/problems. Well, yesterday when I fired up the cpu server and terminal (both Sun SLC's that run SunOS normally. Dang machine shortage.) into plan9, I couldn't use the cpu command to get from the terminal to the cpu server, so I figured I might as well flush my list and see if I'm totally confused. Setup ------ fileserver: "the_ruler" SPARCstation 2 with 1G drive cpu server: "tanna" SPARCstation SLC, diskless (also serves authentication) terminal: "eros" same as cpu server The fileserver + drive are our spares, so I've backing up my changes via u9fs. :-| The cpu server and terminal are in the CS lab, and run SunOS normally. When I want to work with plan9 I halt them and use the boot rom's "dload" command to snarf the proper kernel via tftp (saves having to change the ether's database or /tftpboot on the server). Thus they can't run plan9 continuously (just not enough computer to spare right now). Okay, here's the list. Most of these have implict "why?" or "anybody see this?" attached. 1) The fileserver is supposed to rerequest the password when you type control-D on it's console. I do that, and it halts. I've added a new command "exit" which just calls conslock() to get around this, but I'm not sure why it doesn't work correctly. 2) Every so often, the filesever will just stop accepting connections. You can see the allocation message, but the remote machine never gets a nop, auth or attach through apparently. This appears to have some connection with ethernet errors (from statl). Rebooting the fileserver fixes the problem. 3) Speaking of rebooting the fileserver, whenever I do so I have to reenter all the info. Why? If I don't, the ip address is incorrect! I can type: service the_ruler.plan9.stolaf.edu ip 130.71.8.48 ipgw 130.71.8.1 ipmask 255.255.255.0 ipauth 0.0.0.0 config w1 filsys main w1 and it works fine. I halt it, reboot, not enter config mode, but watch the config messages go by, and the ip address becomes something like 135.104.9.122. Everything else is fine (ipgw, service, etc). 4) DNS. Does *anybody* know how to get plan9 to use DNS? I've added ns lines to /lib/ndb/local, both for the DNS root as well as stolaf.edu. dom=stolaf.edu ns=nic.stolaf.edu ns=mari.acc.stolaf.edu ns=news.stolaf.edu dom=nic.stolaf.edu ip=130.71.128.8 dom=mari.acc.stolaf.edu ip=130.71.192.16 dom=news.stolaf.edu ip=130.71.128.9 And our cpu server starts "ndb/dns -s" from /bin/cpurc. Sure enough, I can point nslookup at the cpuserver and it does proper forwarding. How can I get cs to use it? "echo 'add dns' >/net/cs"? I looked at the dns and cs source, but got lost very quickly. 5) BOOTP. Due to the difficulties of getting authentication running without machines getting their info from BOOTP (as opposed to just typing it in each time), I hacked the plan9 kernel to do roughly rfc1048 & 1533 BOOTP. That is, the vendor field turns into options with the rfc specified magic cookie (99.130.83.99), it extracts the fields to do ipmask and ipgw, and options 209, 210 and 211 are site-specific options to specify fileserver, authentication server, and ip number. ip number? Yeah. Since these machines run SunOS normally, the ip number in the BOOTP header goes with the name under SunOS, and this other BOOTP option gives their plan9 IP. Feel free to vomit. Anyway, is there someway this can be shared with any interested parties? Do I have to see a copy of their plan9 license before I can email them diffs to 9/boot/ip.c and 9/port/bootp.h? 6) Okay, now the biggy: authentication. First of all, the documentation isn't at all clear on what actually have to be in the keys database to make it work. Reading the source of libauth yielded the following as far as I can tell undocumented fact: Each cpu server needs to entered as a host in the plan9 auth database with the machine password under the system's name. The installation guide mentions machine login's, but doesn't say how to make them (that's easy), what they're for, or that cpu server "tanna" needs auth entry "tanna". This is after 3 hours of tracing libauth when I just had a host entry for "bootes" (still haven't changed that). Anyway, I got it working. Yesterday, I fired up plan9 again. Ha. cpu decided it doesn't like me, and proceeds to return "challenge mismatch". Okay, maybe a password was incorrectly entered somehow. So I reenter the machine password in the auth database for both bootes and tanna (the cpu/auth server's name). Bzzt. I reenter mine. Still no go. I remove /adm/keys from the file server console, recreate it, and restock it with users. Still no go. Worked fine a week ago. Maybe it's because the moon is now waning... So this last one is really a plea to someone in the know to explain the practicals of setting up authentication under plan9. I've read the manpages too much. How do the commands reflect the theory in auth(6)? Much preresponse appreciation. Philip Guenther guenther@stolaf.edu (Philip Guenther) St Olaf College, Northfield, MN 55057 (defun sig-hook () (insert-disclaimer 'my-opinion-only 'powerless-student)) "To go outside the mythos is to become insane..." -Robert Pirsig From 9fans-owner Sun May 1 03:28:06 1994 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292160>; Sun, 1 May 1994 03:24:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 03:19:05 -0400 From: David Hogan To: Philip Guenther cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: assorted questions Message-Id: <94May1.032420edt.292160@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >1) The fileserver is supposed to rerequest the password when >you type control-D on it's console. I do that, and it halts. I've >added a new command "exit" which just calls conslock() to get around >this, but I'm not sure why it doesn't work correctly. Seen this! Go into /sys/src/fs/ss/ss.c:sccintr0(), and delete the line which says: if(c == 4) firmware(); Or change 4 to ('P' - '@'), like I did... >3) Speaking of rebooting the fileserver, whenever I do so I have to >reenter all the info. Why? If I don't, the ip address is incorrect! > [...] Have a look in /sys/src/fs/ss/sparc.c: line 6: char netaddr[NAMELEN] = "135.104.9.122"; line 17: chartoip(sysip, netaddr); Delete these two lines! (I think this and your first problem must have been debugging remnants). >4) DNS. Does *anybody* know how to get plan9 to use DNS? I've added >ns lines to /lib/ndb/local, both for the DNS root as well as stolaf.edu. > [...] >And our cpu server starts "ndb/dns -s" from /bin/cpurc. Sure enough, >I can point nslookup at the cpuserver and it does proper forwarding. >How can I get cs to use it? "echo 'add dns' >/net/cs"? I looked at >the dns and cs source, but got lost very quickly. The problem may be that sysname isn't set when dns runs. I run cs first, then do sys = `{cat /dev/sysname} before running dns. From 9fans-owner Sun May 1 09:12:54 1994 Received: from staff.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293049>; Sun, 1 May 1994 09:05:54 -0400 Received: from plan9.cs.su.oz.au by staff.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from dhog for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet (insertion MHSnet site: basser.cs.su.oz.au); Sun, 01 May 1994 18:35:53 +1000 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au (insecurely) by joyce.cs.su.OZ.AU; Sun, 01 May 1994 18:35:46 +1000 Date: Sun, 1 May 1994 04:30:42 -0400 From: David Hogan To: Philip Guenther cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: assorted questions Message-Id: <94May1.090554edt.293049@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> First, re your DNS problem, note that you have to start ndb/dns on your terminal as well (from /bin/termrc) but of course you probably don't want to give it the "-s". >2) Every so often, the filesever will just stop accepting connections. >You can see the allocation message, but the remote machine never gets a >nop, auth or attach through apparently. This appears to have some >connection with ethernet errors (from statl). Rebooting the fileserver >fixes the problem. Perhaps the fileserver is waiting on a lock -- the trace command may help. Do the connections time out after a while, or does everything stay frozen? I have seen a couple of other problems related to ethernet errors. First problem: every now and then the fileserver prints heaps of lance error messages on the console, and all connections to it time out. Not sure what this one is, and don't have the time to figure it out. I think it might be caused by deadlock due to buffer constipation, but that's as far as I got, and it doesn't happen often. Anybody else see this? The other problem: sometimes I will get a single lance error, and then all connections time out (it's a different lance error). I've fixed this one, with the following changes to /sys/src/fs/ss/lance.c (by analogy with what the cpu server kernel does): 99a100,101 > int wedged; > int started; /* suppress error messages at boot time */ 180c182,183 < return c->rl != c->rc && (MPus(c, rmr[c->rl].flags) & OWN) == 0; --- > return c->rl != c->rc && (MPus(c, rmr[c->rl].flags) & OWN) == 0 > || c->wedged; 195a199 > c->started = 1; 203a208,213 > if(c->wedged){ > lanceinit(c-ctlr); > c->wedged = 0; > qunlock(c); > goto loop; > } 473a484 > if(c->started) 490a502,510 > } > > /* > * is lance wedged? > */ > if((csr & (TXON|RXON)) != (TXON|RXON)){ > c->wedged = 1; > print("lance wedged, restarting\n"); > wakeup(&c->rr); From 9fans-owner Fri May 6 18:47:09 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296598>; Fri, 6 May 1994 18:38:23 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Fri, 6 May 1994 18:37:50 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: file server reboots and recovery Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 18:37:45 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94May6.183750edt.3009@groucho.cse.psu.edu> The other day, just for fun, I rebooted my file server while I was still logged on to the terminal and cpu. Very shortly they noticed that the connection had timed out, and required rebooting themselves. In a minimal configuration like this, that's not a big deal, but what does one do in a larger configuration, with several cpu and file servers? NFS has lots of shortcomings, but its one good point is that recovery is automatic. From 9fans-owner Fri May 6 19:07:33 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296632>; Fri, 6 May 1994 19:02:58 -0400 From: philw@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 19:00:53 -0400 Message-Id: <94May6.190258edt.296632@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> The other day, just for fun, I rebooted my file server while I was still logged on to the terminal and cpu. Very shortly they noticed that the connection had timed out, and required rebooting themselves. In a minimal configuration like this, that's not a big deal, but what does one do in a larger configuration, with several cpu and file servers? NFS has lots of shortcomings, but its one good point is that recovery is automatic. Brazil allows file systems to be mounted with a recover option which does exactly what you ask. The recovery is entirely transparent to the user. From 9fans-owner Fri May 6 20:37:02 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296681>; Fri, 6 May 1994 20:33:08 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3009>; Fri, 6 May 1994 20:32:32 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Subject: expecting more from errstr Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 20:32:19 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94May6.203232edt.3009@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Emboldened by the favorable reply to my last query, here is another: One annoying thing in Unix is when you say something like open("/no/such/directory/or/file",0), it tells you that it something doesn't exist, but doesn't say what, which sometimes makes for uninformative error messages. Now that we have errstr, instead of just errno, it would be delightful if it would encode something about what went wrong, so that perror could say something like open: failed because directory 'such' does not exist From 9fans-owner Fri May 6 21:31:11 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296718>; Fri, 6 May 1994 21:28:15 -0400 From: philw@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 21:22:38 -0400 Message-Id: <94May6.212815edt.296718@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> >From: euler.Berkeley.EDU!serge > >>Brazil allows file systems to be mounted with a recover option >>which does exactly what you ask. > >Pardon me, can you tell me what Brazil is? Thank you very much. Brazil is the name of the research version on Plan 9 we are currently working on. >From: Scott Schwartz > >One annoying thing in Unix is when you say something like >open("/no/such/directory/or/file",0), it tells you that it something >doesn't exist, but doesn't say what, which sometimes makes for >uninformative error messages. Now that we have errstr, instead of just >errno, it would be delightful if it would encode something about >what went wrong, so that perror could say something like > open: failed because directory 'such' does not exist This has nothing to do with the plan 9 kernel. The errstr is produced by whatever file system you are connected to. However, while the file system could be modified to do this it does not seem unreasonable to expect the application programmer to print adequate information especially with the werrstr library function and %r format. From 9fans-owner Fri May 6 22:23:48 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296742>; Fri, 6 May 1994 22:19:05 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3017>; Fri, 6 May 1994 22:18:34 -0400 To: philw@plan9.research.att.com cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 May 1994 21:22:38 EDT." <94May6.212815edt.296718@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 6 May 1994 22:18:30 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94May6.221834edt.3017@groucho.cse.psu.edu> Phil writes: | However, while the file | system could be modified to do this it does not seem unreasonable | to expect the application programmer to print adequate information | especially with the werrstr library function and %r format. I agree. I want to do even better and print (or at least read) messages that say which component caused the error. As you say, that requires the fileservers to follow some convention for communicating the information back. I was imagining hacking the print routines to clip off the proposed trailing :number and return it in some other % verb, but even without that it would be an improvement just to see the raw information. (I mistakenly used perror in the example before. I really was thinking about the %r format, but my fingers are more used to typing the other.) From 9fans-owner Mon May 9 13:45:17 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293257>; Mon, 9 May 1994 13:29:34 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189501>; Mon, 9 May 1994 15:03:20 +0200 Received: from balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06234; Mon, 9 May 94 15:01:53 +0200 From: bischof@balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9405091301.AA06234@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> Received: by balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (NX5.67d/NX3.0X) id AA05543; Mon, 9 May 94 15:01:46 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 09:01:46 -0400 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: oo & C Cc: bischof@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE is it possible to develop C-programms in oo-style? i.e, exists a 'objective C port' to plan 9? thanks for your help. -hp From 9fans-owner Mon May 9 21:49:28 1994 Received: from staff.cs.su.OZ.AU ([129.78.8.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294485>; Mon, 9 May 1994 21:44:26 -0400 Received: from staff.cs.su.oz.au by staff.cs.su.OZ.AU (mail from gary for 9fans@cse.psu.edu) with MHSnet; Tue, 10 May 1994 11:44:15 +1000 Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 21:41:16 -0400 From: gary@staff.cs.su.oz.au (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: oo & C To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <94May9.214426edt.294485@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> I think C++ is included in plan 9. Check out Aleph, a new language by philw. Gives you ADTs plus various helps for concurrent programming with possibly new goodies in next release? I'm using it for my project and I like it. From 9fans-owner Tue May 10 11:35:43 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293917>; Tue, 10 May 1994 11:27:26 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 09:24:25 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: plan 9 on the indigo and indy we are about to replace most of our desktop machines, and i'd like to consider the Indy as a replacement option as well as those slow Sparcs, but although others might live with Irix&X, the machine will only be useful to me if it runs Plan 9. (with 16 Mbytes on a starter system it will probably only be usable running Plan 9!) the CDROM included the source for an indigo kernel (which i haven't had a chance to try yet). would that require much change to run on the Indy? i wouldn't expect to use the 64-bit operations on the newer MIPS chip, which i think has got some form of compatibility mode. initially i need only a screen, kbd, mouse & ether (not scsi, camera, isdn, etc.). what about the indigo2 (for use as a diskless cpu server)? From 9fans-owner Tue May 10 11:56:58 1994 Received: from alpha.xerox.com ([13.1.64.93]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294001>; Tue, 10 May 1994 11:43:12 -0400 Received: from reynaldo.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.96]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14564(7)>; Tue, 10 May 1994 08:41:51 PDT Received: from localhost by reynaldo.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <25545>; Tue, 10 May 1994 08:42:31 -0700 To: gary@staff.cs.su.oz.au (Gary Capell) cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, kerch@parc.xerox.com Subject: Re: oo & C In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 09 May 94 18:41:16 PDT." <94May9.214426edt.294485@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.3 (final) 4/4/94 Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 11:42:25 -0400 Sender: Berry Kercheval From: Berry Kercheval Message-Id: <94May10.084231pdt.25545@reynaldo.parc.xerox.com> In message <94May9.214426edt.294485@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> you write: >I think C++ is included in plan 9. Check out Aleph, a new >language by philw. That's "ALEF", right? --berry From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 12:37:55 1994 Received: from emmetal.cs.wisc.edu ([128.105.9.35]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294489>; Wed, 11 May 1994 12:14:16 -0400 Message-Id: <9405111613.AA00629@emmetal.cs.wisc.edu> Received: from localhost by emmetal.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 11 May 94 11:13:29 -0500 To: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: plan 9 on the indigo and indy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 10 May 1994 09:24:25 EDT." Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 12:13:25 -0400 From: Bob Kummerfeld I highly recommend the new Pentium machines. For under $US4k you can get a machine that is very powerful (~40mips, 32Meg mem, 540M disk). Bob. From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 13:42:07 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294504>; Wed, 11 May 1994 13:21:43 -0400 Message-ID: X-Sender: pete@minster.york.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 12:51:24 -0400 To: Bob Kummerfeld From: pete@minster.york.ac.uk (Pete Fenelon) Subject: Re: plan 9 on the indigo and indy Cc: 9fans@cs.psu.edu X-Mailer: >I highly recommend the new Pentium machines. For under $US4k you >can get a machine that is very powerful (~40mips, 32Meg mem, 540M disk). > >Bob. The problem with PCs is that if users have them on their desks, most of them want/demand Windows. Unfortunately I'm stuck with Windows because I'm developing a Windows app -- I'd love to ditch it and run Linux and/or Plan9... however, the _vast_ majority of people here would seem to actually prefer Microsoft's excuse for an OS to a real environment! pete -- Peter Fenelon - Research Associate - High Integrity Systems Engineering Group, Dept. of Computer Science, University of York, York, Y01 5DD (+44/0)904 433388 From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 14:05:17 1994 Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu ([130.85.3.11]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294598>; Wed, 11 May 1994 13:43:03 -0400 Received: from rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (vijay@rpc44.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.60.64]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10981 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 11 May 1994 13:10:05 -0400 Received: (vijay@localhost) by rpc44.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA08739; Wed, 11 May 1994 13:10:03 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 13:10:02 -0400 From: Vijay Gill Subject: Re: plan 9 on the indigo and indy To: 9fans plan9 users list <9fans@cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <9405111613.AA00629@emmetal.cs.wisc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bob Kummerfeld wrote: > I highly recommend the new Pentium machines. For under $US4k you > can get a machine that is very powerful (~40mips, 32Meg mem, 540M disk). Plan 9 on intel. Can you set up an auth server, file server using intel? Last I heard, there was support only for the mips/sparc machines as fileservers. vijay From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 15:02:27 1994 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295537>; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:49:11 -0400 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu (arnold@penfold.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.249]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA17160 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (arnold@localhost) by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA06042 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:08 -0400 From: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) Message-Id: <199405111811.OAA06042@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:08 -0400 X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: plan 9 on intel > Plan 9 on intel. Can you set up an auth server, file server using intel? > Last I heard, there was support only for the mips/sparc machines as > fileservers. Worst case, there's u9fs for the file server. I don't know about the auth server. Arnold From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 16:04:43 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295409>; Wed, 11 May 1994 15:51:30 -0400 From: forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 14:34:49 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: >>Plan 9 on intel. Can you set up an auth server, file server using intel? >>Last I heard, there was support only for the mips/sparc machines as >>fileservers. it isn't on the CDROM, but given /sys/src/9/pc and a little background knowledge, producing /sys/src/fs/pc wasn't too hard. producing 9pccpu (CPU server configuration) is even easier. any cpu server can be used as an authentication server, so that's that! (thanks to the Labs we are back in the `use the source' era!) a 486dx2/66 seems quite a bit faster than a Sparc Classic; i use a dx2/66 as a CPU server, and even with a 24Mb classic as a terminal i tended to do (cross)compilations on the 486. i use a very lowly 16Mb 486sx33 as a file server (it doesn't use floating point). it's adequate for a small number of users (certainly not the bottleneck at present). >>The problem with PCs is that if users have them on their desks, most of them >>want/demand Windows. i was expecting that many people here would replace old Suns by PCs to run Windows, because they don't program much (or they like Visual Basic), so the intention wasn't to preclude that, BUT for those who preferred a Unix environment i thought it might be nice to consider more interesting hardware than Sun provides. of course, the PC configuration will be chosen to allow people to run Linux, Amoeba and of course Plan 9 if that takes their fancy. as cs.wisc.edu!bob observed, the faster Intel and non-Intel clones are competitive in performance and usually much cheaper than equivalent RISC machines: >>I highly recommend the new Pentium machines. For under $US4k you >>can get a machine that is very powerful (~40mips, 32Meg mem, 540M disk). it's also nice on the PC to be able to plug in a wide range of cheap special-purpose cards (although register-level programming information isn't always available). furthermore, most fast PCs come with a reasonable amount of fast second-level cache, which can make a difference. even so, i don't think the 386/486 architecture has got enough truly general purpose registers for some things i'd like to do (not really enough for basic bitblt, come to that). the 64k banking of most non-PCI graphics cards is also a disincentive, and makes graphics implementation harder and slower. on a more personal level, i get dizzy every time i get near the register level programming of SVGA. 90 and 100Mhz Pentium machines, especially with PCI, should make very good, cheap file and CPU servers. there are even multi-processor variants. in those applications weak graphics performance matters not a bit. unless you are considering graphics or multimedia work (both of which interest me a bit) and possibly floating-point intensive work (traditionally a weak area for Intel machines), the underlying awfulness of the Intel architecture doesn't appear at all with either Plan 9 (or Linux, come to that), and with those exceptions i'd certainly consider a fast PC as a Plan 9 terminal. (in fact, i use a 486 at home.) it is indeed hard to match the price. From 9fans-owner Wed May 11 16:18:18 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295540>; Wed, 11 May 1994 16:03:36 -0400 From: philw@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:06 -0400 Message-Id: <94May11.160336edt.295540@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> You can get Mips R4400 boxs for US <$4000 which are faster than pentiums. They are worth looking at. We are using carrera boards. In particular the 4400 floating point is much faster. ------ original message follows ------ >From cse.psu.edu!9fans-owner Wed May 11 14:11:08 0400 1994 Received: by ninet.research.att.com; Wed May 11 15:07 EDT 1994 Received: from burdell.cc.gatech.edu ([130.207.3.207]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295537>; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:49:11 -0400 Received: from penfold.cc.gatech.edu (arnold@penfold.cc.gatech.edu [130.207.3.249]) by burdell.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA17160 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:12 -0400 Received: from localhost (arnold@localhost) by penfold.cc.gatech.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA06042 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:08 -0400 From: arnold@cc.gatech.edu (Arnold Robbins) Message-Id: <199405111811.OAA06042@penfold.cc.gatech.edu> Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 14:11:08 -0400 X-Ultrix: Just Say NO! X-Important-Saying: Premature Optimization Is The Root Of All Evil. X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: plan 9 on intel > Plan 9 on intel. Can you set up an auth server, file server using intel? > Last I heard, there was support only for the mips/sparc machines as > fileservers. Worst case, there's u9fs for the file server. I don't know about the auth server. Arnold From 9fans-owner Tue May 17 03:27:41 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291785>; Tue, 17 May 1994 03:19:38 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189455>; Tue, 17 May 1994 09:17:03 +0200 Received: from thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25793; Tue, 17 May 94 09:16:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 03:16:47 -0400 From: bischof@thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9405170716.AA25793@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: 8.5 & Documentation Where can i find some documentation for the 8 1/2 window system? The information in the manual(2) is to concentrated. Thanks for your help. -hp From 9fans-owner Thu May 19 11:03:59 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293054>; Thu, 19 May 1994 10:44:28 -0400 From: rob@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 10:44:05 -0400 Message-Id: <94May19.104428edt.293054@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> yes, i made a mistake transcribing the command. the comma should be a semicolon. how you got all capital letters in your version i don't understand, though. ,x/[a-zA-Z0-9]+/ -#0;+#1 | tr a-z A-Z From 9fans-owner Tue May 24 11:02:26 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292587>; Tue, 24 May 1994 10:42:35 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189448>; Tue, 24 May 1994 16:39:40 +0200 Received: from balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29037; Tue, 24 May 94 16:39:19 +0200 From: bischof@balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9405241439.AA29037@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> Received: by balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (NX5.67d/NX3.0X) id AA00400; Tue, 24 May 94 16:39:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:39:07 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: ftpfs Configuration: terminal: sparc ELC, 16M, server: sparc 2 Problem: term% ftpfs dosuni 220 dosuni FTP server (SunOS 4.1) ready. ... 200 Type set to I. term% ls -l /n/ftp/x --rw-r--r-- M 14 bischof inform 38246400 May 23 15:00 /n/ftp/x term% tar xvf /n/ftp/x tar prints nothing. The terminal is dead after a few minutes. <--- The problem ---------------------------------------- ^t^t^r and everything looks fine. Thanks for your help. -hp From 9fans-owner Tue May 24 11:58:20 1994 Received: from lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au ([129.78.96.2]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292999>; Tue, 24 May 1994 11:48:33 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 11:41:41 -0400 From: David Hogan To: bischof@balrog.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: ftpfs Message-Id: <94May24.114833edt.292999@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Note that when you try to read a file using ftpfs, it fetches the entire file first, storing a copy in /tmp. So the first question to ask is what you have mounted as /tmp, and whether it can cope with having 38M dumped to it. Eg: ramfs can cause a lot of swapping (it's generally smarter to use a _real_ filesystem for /tmp). What exactly do you mean by "the terminal is dead"? Does 8-1/2 refuse to respond? Even when you keep the 3rd mouse button held down patiently? (maybe it's just slow due to being swapped out!). If it's really hung then it may be due to the kernel running out of memory -- you should do a ^T^Tx to find out how much is free. ^T^Tp is also useful, to find out the current state of the various processes. Hope this helps. From 9fans-owner Fri May 27 09:39:43 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292651>; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:14:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 08:25:00 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: From: forsyth@plan9.cs.york.ac.uk Subject: minor change to smtpd.y (and yesterday) yesterday i couldn't receive mail from 3mail.3com.com, since smtpd rejected the `mail from:' as having a syntax error. the grammar in /sys/src/cmd/upas/smtp/smtpd.y is taken directly from RFC 821, but (it turns out) RFC 1123 section 2.1 makes a blanket change to all applications regarding host name formats, thus requiring a change to the rfc821 grammar (but without specifying the change). here are some diffs; the line numbers might not agree -- i haven't got the CDROM online at the moment. cpu% diff `{yesterday -940501 smtpd.y} . 90,92c90,91 < name : a ={ $$ = cat(&$1, 0, 0, 0, 0 ,0, 0); } < | a ld-str ={ $$ = cat(&$1, &$2, 0, 0, 0 ,0, 0); } < | a ldh-str ld-str ={ $$ = cat(&$1, &$2, &$3, 0, 0 ,0, 0); } --- > name : ld-str ={ $$ = cat(&$1, 0, 0, 0, 0 ,0, 0); } > | let-dig ldh-str ld-str ={ $$ = cat(&$1, &$2, &$3, 0, 0 ,0, 0); } when first doing that diff, i discovered that several of the diagnostics in /rc/bin/yesterday are not sent to the standard error; here are the diffs for that: term% diff `{yesterday /rc/bin/yesterday} . 76c76 < 'is not a backup day' --- > 'is not a backup day' >[1=2] 82c82 < echo 'yesterday: can''t find directory' --- > echo 'yesterday: can''t find directory' >[1=2] From 9fans-owner Fri May 27 09:56:50 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292641>; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:39:13 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <12910>; Fri, 27 May 1994 09:15:09 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: fileserver performance [small benchmark results] Cc: tg@utstat.toronto.edu Message-Id: <94May27.091509edt.12910@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 09:15:01 -0400 Some time ago, I asked: > Has anyone benchmarked a Plan 9 file server vs. a u9fs file server? > If so, how do they compare? I only had 2 machines, and I couldn't decide whether to sacrifice a cpu server or file server for my setup (I knew I wanted a terminal). I didn't get any replies, so I thought I'd do some small benchmarks to see for myself. I did 2 tests, for the first one I copied /lib/image/* to /tmp, for the second, I cat'ed all the images to /dev/null. For all tests, /tmp was not ramfs, it was ~/tmp (same disk as /lib/image). For the u9fs tests, the file server was an SGI INDY running IRIX 5.2, serving a Seagate ST3610N to a MIPS Magnum 3000 plan 9 terminal. For the plan 9 file server tests, the file server was a MIPS Magnum 3000, with a Seagate ST11200N disk (same Magnum 3000 terminal). For each test, I repeated it 4 times, and used SGI's NetVisualizer to see how busy the ethernet was during the test (LAN was otherwise idle). bench u9fs: cd /lib/image; time cp * /tmp 0.00u 3.70s 19.04r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.02u 3.70s 20.52r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.04u 4.30s 20.20r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 4.64s 19.78r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... (using 30% of ethernet bandwidth) cd /lib/image; time cat * > /dev/null 0.00u 0.42s 4.54r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 0.32s 4.76r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.02u 0.30s 4.56r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.02u 0.32s 4.54r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... (using 80% of ethernet bandwidth) bench plan 9 file server: cd /lib/image; time cp * /tmp 0.02u 3.12s 8.00r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.02u 3.14s 7.88r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 3.18s 7.78r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.02u 3.10s 8.14r cp dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... (using 45% of ethernet bandwidth) cd /lib/image; time cat * > /dev/null 0.02u 0.56s 4.04r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 0.72s 4.06r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 0.70s 4.10r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... 0.00u 0.68s 4.02r cat dna.3c mandrill.3c swan.3 table.3c ... (using 40% of ethernet bandwidth) So, it seems that for the first test (reading & writing to the same disk at the same time) u9fs took 2.5 times as long as a real Plan 9 file server. Since the ethernet utilization was not 2.5 times greater, that should be an indication of the efficiency of il vs. tcp. For the second test, the times were closer together, but I'm not sure why. Maybe the main problem with u9fs is when writing, so in the read-only test it does much better. Again, we see that u9fs/tcp gobbles up the network (80%). I was surprised that I didn't notice any caching effects. The times were the same for a newly rebooted system as for re-running the benchmarks over and over again right away. Overall, it seems like the performance penalty of using u9fs isn't that bad unless you do a lot of concurrent reading & writing. Any other opinions or explanations? Steve ps. Should I be using 'disc' instead of 'disk', as in the Plan 9 papers? From 9fans-owner Fri May 27 17:01:33 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296311>; Fri, 27 May 1994 16:50:57 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <13001>; Fri, 27 May 1994 16:42:00 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: how can you ... ? Message-Id: <94May27.164200edt.13001@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 16:41:48 -0400 Has anyone implemented a screen saver for 8 1/2 (a dimmer would be adequate)? Is there an easy way to see where everything is mounted in your namespace? ie. the equivalent of `mount` in Unix Is there any way to see how full the disk is from a terminal or cpu server? ie. the equivalent of `df` in Unix Who is going to Usenix in 1 week? How about getting together for a BOF? Steve From 9fans-owner Tue May 31 16:45:07 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294486>; Tue, 31 May 1994 16:35:24 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <13248>; Tue, 31 May 1994 16:34:55 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: setting up a cpu server Message-Id: <94May31.163455edt.13248@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 16:34:45 -0400 I have 2 Magnums, one is a terminal, the other is a cpu server. Both use u9fs as their file server. When I try to telnet into the cpu server, the connection closes right away. I get the following message in /sys/log/listen: plan9: May 31 12:28:20: bootes: aux/listen: tcp call for tcp23 on chan /net/tcp/3 Other tcp services don't work either (similar messages in logfile). When I try to use the 'cpu' command on the terminal, it prints: cpu: can't read server challenge: plan9: file does not exist And I see the following message in /sys/log/listen: plan9: May 31 12:28:47: bootes: aux/listen: il call for il17005 on chan /net/il/2 UDP services such as bootp and tftp seem to work fine, as I can boot the terminal from the cpu server. How can I get cpu & TCP services to work? Steve From 9fans-owner Fri Jun 3 13:19:58 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294448>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:06:25 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <12762>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:06:05 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Plan 9 BOF at Boston Usenix (next week) Message-Id: <94Jun3.130605edt.12762@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:05:55 -0400 I've asked the Usenix people to schedule a Plan 9 BOF for Wednesday night. They haven't returned my message yet (probably busy setting up), but if anyone is in the neighbourhood I hope to see you there. Steve From 9fans-owner Fri Jun 3 18:02:09 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296646>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:57:18 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3037>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:56:40 -0400 To: Steve Kotsopoulos cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: setting up a cpu server In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 May 1994 16:34:45 EDT." <94May31.163455edt.13248@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.3 4/7/94 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:56:36 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Jun3.175640edt.3037@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | When I try to use the 'cpu' command on the terminal, it prints: | | cpu: can't read server challenge: plan9: file does not exist I haven't gotten this to work either, I have to admit. I was secretly hoping it would be fixed in the next release, assuming there is one. :-) From 9fans-owner Fri Jun 3 18:19:29 1994 Received: from euler.Berkeley.EDU ([128.32.142.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296668>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 18:14:02 -0400 Received: from localhost by euler.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.9/1.28) id PAA17969; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 15:13:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199406032213.PAA17969@euler.Berkeley.EDU> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Programmability From: serge@euler.Berkeley.EDU Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 18:13:43 -0400 Sender: root@euler.Berkeley.EDU X-Mts: smtp Just out of curiosity, would anyone happen to know why programmability was considered useful for a debugger (acid), but wasn't for an editor (sam)? Perhaps if I could impose on the authors to comment on this? (I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything of the sort, I would simply like a better understanding of the issues at hand.) Thank you very much. From 9fans-owner Fri Jun 3 20:17:38 1994 Received: from minster.york.ac.uk ([144.32.128.41]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296782>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 20:10:57 -0400 Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 19:26:54 -0400 To: 9fans@cs.psu.edu Message-ID: subject: cpu command from: forsyth@plan9.cs.york.ac.uk >> | When I try to use the 'cpu' command on the terminal, it prints: >> | >> | cpu: can't read server challenge: plan9: file does not exist >> >> I haven't gotten this to work either, I have to admit. >> I was secretly hoping it would be fixed in the next release, >> assuming there is one. :-) i've got lots of them, so i must be doing something right! i think the following is true (and it works for me). generally, after following the installation notes, i think i just read the manual pages it refers to very carefully, and pondered the examples on the CDROM. i found it was easy at first to miss out a step, though, and even now i'll sometimes forget to add a new cpu server to the key file when first configuring it. also, until i understood the defaulting scheme in /lib/ndb/local, i sometimes forgot to add the auth= and proto= entries. in the following, i try to point out some pitfalls. i advise you to read the discussion near the end of the installation document and appropriate manual pages once more, since i can't guarantee to give a step-by-step description. it really does all work as documented, though. see the descriptions auth(8), cs(8), ndb(8), cpurc(8), listen(8), keyfs(4), ndb(6), listed here in no particular order. first, set up an authentication server. there must be an authentication key for each host that acts as a server. one of your cpu servers must act as an authentication server. an authentication server runs auth/keyfs in /bin/cpurc. in the following example, the key lines in a typical machine's entry in cpurc are marked: switch($sysname) { ... case mycpusysname 1.2.3.4 sysname=mycpusysname # ... set up devices here auth/keyfs -m/mnt/keys /adm/keys # <- start the keyfs auth/keyfs -m/mnt/netkeys /adm/netkeys # <- same for net keys # the next few lines are not specific to authentication servers ip/ipconfig ip/rarpd & # only needed if you have suns to boot ip/tftpd -d & ip/bootp ndb/dns -s # these are: # the -t /bin/service.auth in the following are needed for auth to work aux/listen -t /bin/service.auth -d /bin/service dk # <- use this only if you have Datakit! aux/listen -t /bin/service.auth -d /bin/service il # <- required # there are no authentication services on tcp/ip unless you use matty's 9x # or implement other services of your own! aux/listen tcp # <- required if you use tcp/ip each aux/listen does an announce for the specified protocol; that is, listens on dk!*!*, il!*!*, and tcp!*!* for incoming calls. the pattern is net!host!port where * matches all. the `musca' sample in the CDROM /bin/cpurc created a second il listener at this point: aux/listen il i did not copy this. it seemed likely to announce a second il!*!* (if the kernel accepted it) BUT this process, without the -t option, will not successfully handle incoming calls to the auth services. it seemed either wrong or redundant, so i did not copy it, and things have gone smoothly. i think this is the only difference in my procedure compared to what's on the CDROM. your cpu server should now be configured in /bin/cpurc as an authentication server. next, add keys for any hosts that need them -- including the cpu server itself. auth/keyfs must be running for you to do this: i usually just restart the machine to run /bin/cpurc, but you can probably just invoke the command on the console (as is done during the bootstrap procedure): auth/keyfs use `auth/adduser -hp host-name' on the console of the authentication server to add a `host' entry for each `host-name'. use your machine password as chosen during the installation. terminals do NOT need host entries. if you don't include key entries for your cpu servers, or keyfs isn't runing, and you try a cpu command on a terminal, you probably do get the following message: >> | cpu: can't read server challenge: plan9: file does not exist if your root comes from a plan 9 file server that does its own authentication (a common case), you will need to `auth' on the file server's console after adding new keys. a root taken from u9fs will not care -- it doesn't use the keys -- BUT u9fs had better accept attach messages from `none' (and probably `bootes' when acting as a root server -- but i've not tried that configuration). you can add `none' to the unix password file as a user who cannot log in, and has few file permissions -- perhaps a synonym for `nobody'. otherwise, you won't be able to run untrusted listener services: the listener creates a new name space by attaching to #s/boot as "none", and u9fs will reject such an attach without a corresponding entry in the unix password file. a final point: also ensure you have the right entries in the /lib/ndb/local database. i believe you need an appropriate `auth=' entry corresponding to the sys= entry in /lib/ndb/global for both the cpu server and your terminal(s). programs that need authentication services won't know where to look otherwise. there is a way of making a default apply to all machines on a network or subnetwork, but you can skip that for now. ndb(6) describes the defaulting: see the discussion of meta-addresses of the form $attribute. it's very nice. callers to authentication services call net!$auth!servicename (eg, net!$auth!rexauth), and ndb/cs searches up the network tree to find the auth= entry nearest the resolving host. note that the cpu server that is acting as authentication server must have $auth resolve to itself. as i said, the quickest way to get things running on a small plan 9 network is just to make explicit entries and generalise the /lib/ndb/local file later when you understand how the $attribute search works. you'll need something like this: sys = mycpu ... networking info. auth=mycpu # <- important bit: mycpu does its own authentication proto=il # <- tells ndb/cs that this machine can use IL/IP on which auth depends sys = myterm ... networking info. auth=mycpu # <- important bit: use mycpu for authentication proto=il # <- tells ndb/cs that this machine can use IL/IP on which auth depends with any luck, you might get your cpu servers working now! From 9fans-owner Fri Jun 3 23:36:56 1994 Received: from groucho.cse.psu.edu ([130.203.2.12]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <296894>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 23:31:34 -0400 Received: from localhost by groucho.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <3010>; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 23:30:47 -0400 To: serge@euler.berkeley.edu cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Programmability In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Jun 1994 18:13:43 EDT." <199406032213.PAA17969@euler.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 23:30:31 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Message-Id: <94Jun3.233047edt.3010@groucho.cse.psu.edu> | Just out of curiosity, would anyone happen to know why programmability | was considered useful for a debugger (acid), but wasn't for an editor | (sam)? >From what I saw of acme at the last usenix, it looks as if you question has been answered. Rob: any chance of plan 9 licencees getting a copy of acme? From 9fans-owner Tue Jun 7 03:59:42 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <293585>; Tue, 7 Jun 1994 03:48:01 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189441>; Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:47:14 +0200 Received: from ramses.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26553; Tue, 7 Jun 94 09:47:03 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 03:47:03 -0400 From: bischof@ramses.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9406070747.AA26553@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Plan 9 CD Is the Plan 9 CD from 1/93 the CD with the actual version? -hp From 9fans-owner Mon Jun 13 23:37:50 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295078>; Mon, 13 Jun 1994 23:30:57 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <13223>; Mon, 13 Jun 1994 23:30:23 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: summary of Plan 9 BOF (birds of a feather session) Message-Id: <94Jun13.233023edt.13223@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 23:30:18 -0400 I scheduled a Plan 9 BOF at the Usenix conference last week. About 40 people attended, but only a few had Plan 9. Many of the others were either from commercial organizations (and wish they could get it), or from universities without licences. We were pleased that Rob Pike and Dennis Ritchie were able to attend. I started the BOF by telling people how they could obtain licences, and pointed them to the ftp archive on research.att.com for more information. I also said that I was thinking of setting up my own ftp server, to collect sources from the user community. I feel there may be some users out there who have written software, but haven't made it available to others because they don't have an anonymous ftp server. If anyone has something they would like to make available to all the other Plan 9 licencees, please send me mail. I'll post a notice to this list once the ftp service is online. After the preliminary remarks, Rob Pike was kind enough to answer a wide variety of questions. I'll summarize what I remember: A new Plan 9 distribution will be worked on this summer, but it is unclear if it will be distributed. Please don't deluge the developers for more information regarding the licencing and release details. It will have acme and a fax service, and updated versions of alef, acid & authenticaion services. The PC kernel now supports sound boards. The default porting base will be for PC's instead of Sparcs and Magnums. If legal details can be worked out, the Plan 9 developers hope that this CD will also be released publicly, so that anyone can buy it (again, this is what they HOPE ... no promises). Brazil is their current research project. It looks like Plan 9 on the outside, but there have been many internal changes. Most importantly, the kernel data paths have been shortened to improve throughput. Rob re-wrote the window system for Brazil in alef (in 4 days). Someone asked "why do we need another new language [alef]?" Rob explained that alef is a concurrent object-oriented language, and this makes it much easier to write some kinds of programs. Two examples were given. The fax package has a coroutine that loads the next page of fax while you are reading the current page. This was relatively easy to add in with alef. Also, for programs like the window system, which manage several different input and output devices, alef makes the program smaller and easier to write (once you've mastered concurrent programming). A new audio compression algorithm has been developed by the acoustics researchers at Bell Labs. It gives 13:1 compression (mpeg gives 4:1). A new network has been developed by Phil Winterbottom. It is called Planet (built with PLA's), and can handle 300Mb/s. Many of the questions had to do with licencing ... I don't recall any details other than what I have already written. For more information: ftp research.att.com:/dist/plan9doc Plan 9: The Early Papers ftp research.att.com:/dist/plan9man manuals & licencing information ftp nine.ecf.toronto.edu:/pub/plan9 user community ftp site - soon mail 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu to subscribe to mailing list -- Steve From 9fans-owner Tue Jun 14 15:27:27 1994 Received: from plg.uwaterloo.ca ([129.97.140.10]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295359>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:21:26 -0400 Received: by plg.uwaterloo.ca id <184855>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:20:24 -0400 From: Dave Mason To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-reply-to: <94Jun13.233023edt.13223@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> (message from Steve Kotsopoulos on Mon, 13 Jun 1994 23:30:18 -0400) Subject: Vicious Rumour X-Face: %Q_F^9R-:'3MM7eZ6@E.x@f\*bgatzGv-8d%I~L[p^.F)3QF{kq\UTsu|e#?)3FPwJNvPPB !s*He|-*M^p*~bh"Nywm5NLL\\Rl3r(hWHY*F:$/RdKV*bS";n&#\Ov@*=]mu\}6tP Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:20:21 -0400 Peter Salus gave a talk here (U Waterloo) on May 31. He said many interesting things, the strangest of which was that 3M or some other megacorp had bought Plan-9 lock, stock, and barrel. I questioned this as sounding rather strange, but he was quite sure. Tell me it ain't so! (Unless they'll make it widely available.) In the report of the Plan-9 BOF, the suggestion was that plan-9 *might* become available on a cd. Tell me it's so! ../Dave From 9fans-owner Tue Jun 14 15:47:29 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295390>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:42:17 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <10302>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:41:52 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu, dmason@plg.uwaterloo.ca Subject: Re: Vicious Rumour Message-Id: <94Jun14.154152edt.10302@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:41:45 -0400 > Peter Salus gave a talk here (U Waterloo) on May 31. He said many > interesting things, the strangest of which was that 3M or some other > megacorp had bought Plan-9 lock, stock, and barrel. I questioned this > as sounding rather strange, but he was quite sure. He was quite wrong. He also reported the same thing in his new book. There were some negotiations with a big company, but nothing was signed. > Tell me it ain't so! (Unless they'll make it widely available.) It ain't so. > In the report of the Plan-9 BOF, the suggestion was that plan-9 > *might* become available on a cd. May the force be with us ... sorry, I've never seen "Plan 9 from Outer Space", so a Star Wars phrase will have to do. From 9fans-owner Tue Jun 14 15:57:49 1994 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292929>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:51:38 -0400 From: rob@plan9.research.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:47:20 -0400 Message-Id: <94Jun14.155138edt.292929@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> salus got the story just wrong. he appears to have conflated the sale of USL to Novell with rumblings about a general release of plan 9. the book perpetuates the error, but he has promised to correct the mistake in the next printing. From 9fans-owner Sat Jun 25 18:23:02 1994 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294140>; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 18:08:54 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <2145>; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 18:08:29 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: announcing Plan 9 software archive at nine.ecf.toronto.edu:/pub/plan9 Message-Id: <94Jun25.180829edt.2145@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 18:08:24 -0400 Here's the README file: README for Plan 9 ftp archive at nine.ecf.toronto.edu:/pub/plan9 This ftp archive is a repository of software and documentation created by the Plan 9 user community. Right now, it contains the following directories: forsyth - is a mirror of ftp.cs.york.ac.uk:/pub/plan9 it includes an Ident (RFC1413) service, routed (RIP listener), and 2 PC scsi drivers. queries to forsyth@minster.york.ac.uk matty - is a mirror of ftp.cs.su.oz.au:/matty/unicode it includes 9term, libXg (with Unicode support) and the sam editor. queries to Matty Farrow steve - has some small scripts I wrote it includes uptime and tcp79 (finger service) queries to Steve Kotsopoulos An archive of the 9fans mailing list is available via anonymous ftp from ftp.cse.psu.edu:/pub/plan9-fans/9fans.93-94 mail 9fans-owner@cse.psu.edu to subscribe to the list The Plan 9 developers at Bell Labs have the following ftp archives: research.att.com:/dist/plan9doc Plan 9: The Early Papers research.att.com:/dist/plan9man manuals & licencing information If you have something useful, but you don't have an anonymous ftp server, I can make it available here. I will also mirror any remote sites that have useful stuff (should be better for some people than crossing the oceans to the UK or Australia). Just send me mail if you would like to submit anything. -- Steve - Jun 25, 1994 From 9fans-owner Mon Jun 27 08:34:37 1994 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292845>; Mon, 27 Jun 1994 08:25:06 -0400 Received: from dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.160.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189453>; Mon, 27 Jun 1994 14:24:31 +0200 Received: from yama.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07587; Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:24:26 +0200 From: bischof@yama.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9406271224.AA07587@dosuni.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> Received: by yama.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (NX5.67d/NX3.0X) id AA00407; Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:24:21 +0200 Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 08:24:21 -0400 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: 81/2 Development Tool Hi, exists a development tool (like Motif's uil) for 8/12? Thanks for your help. Hans-Peter From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Tue Aug 2 10:58:19 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <291826>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 10:41:48 -0400 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291824>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 10:41:04 -0400 Received: from thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.161.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189523>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:40:14 +0200 Received: from frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19563; Tue, 2 Aug 94 16:40:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 10:40:08 -0400 From: bischof@frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9408021440.AA19563@thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: 9fans Subject: mk & :<: Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans Hi, exists a an example for the use of the attribute <. -hp From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Tue Aug 2 16:21:01 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <295500>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:01:19 -0400 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <295511>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 16:00:34 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <1824>; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 15:59:09 -0400 From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: plan9-fans Subject: Re: mk & :<: Cc: bischof@frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Message-Id: <94Aug2.155909edt.1824@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 15:58:55 -0400 Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans Hans-Peter Bischof wrote: > exists a an example for the use of the attribute <. By anonymous ftp, grab research.att.com:/dist/plan9man/06mkfiles.ps.Z It shows you what you want. From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Wed Aug 3 00:33:47 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <295350>; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 00:14:18 -0400 Received: from cannon.ecf.toronto.edu ([128.100.8.5]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <294615>; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 00:13:24 -0400 Received: by cannon.ecf.toronto.edu id <4278>; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 00:12:23 -0400 Subject: short survey of Plan 9 sites From: Steve Kotsopoulos To: 9fans Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 19:12:13 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Message-Id: <94Aug3.001223edt.4278@cannon.ecf.toronto.edu> Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans I've started working on a Plan 9 installation guide that will try to cover common difficulties and give some useful tips. To make sure it is useful for a broad audience, could the Plan 9 sites on this list please fill out the following short survey and return it to me. I'll summarize the replies I get. Hardware. Plan 9 terminals: Plan 9 cpu servers: Plan 9 file servers: Unix u9fs file servers: Other details: (eg. disk space, worm disk, etc.) Number of active users: Installation difficulties: Installation tips: For example, here are my own answers: Hardware. Plan 9 terminals: 1 MIPS Magnum 3000, with colour monitor Plan 9 cpu servers: 1 MIPS Magnum 3000 Plan 9 file servers: 0 (tried to use Magnum, but got disk errors) Unix u9fs file servers: 1 SGI Indy Other details: 400Meg disk Number of active users: 1 (me) now, 10-20 anticipated Installation difficulties: mostly due to Unix-based fileserver quirks Installation tips: use tcpd to protect access to u9fs daemon From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Wed Aug 3 03:37:36 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <292783>; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:26:30 -0400 Received: from thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.161.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292749>; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:25:56 -0400 Received: from frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29300; Wed, 3 Aug 94 09:25:41 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 03:25:41 -0400 From: bischof@frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9408030725.AA29300@thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Subject: Re: short survey of Plan 9 sites Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans Hardware. Plan 9 terminals: Sparc ELC, 386 Plan 9 cpu servers: 0 Plan 9 file servers: Sparc 2 Unix u9fs file servers: Sparc ELC Other details: (eg. disk space, worm disk, etc.) Nothing Number of active users: 2 Installation difficulties: we don't use a cpu server --> no passwd Installation tips: start with u9fs and a terminal read the plan9 mailing list -hp From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Thu Aug 11 06:51:02 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <292481>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 06:44:22 -0400 Received: from unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.17.7]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292058>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 06:11:05 -0400 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189499>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 12:09:55 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189487>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 12:04:17 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189510>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:58:42 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189509>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:53:00 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189498>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:47:24 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189509>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:41:48 +0200 Received: by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE via suspension id <189499>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:35:55 +0200 Received: from thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.161.1]) by unios.rz.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE with SMTP id <189453>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 11:30:19 +0200 Received: from verdi.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19781; Thu, 11 Aug 94 11:28:19 +0200 Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 05:28:19 -0400 From: bischof@verdi.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9408110928.AA19781@thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: 9fans Subject: $CC <---> $ALEF Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans Hi, i wan't to mix an alef source and a C source like this. $ALEF -w -c alef_src.l --> alef_src.$O $CC -w cc_src.c --> cc_src.$O $LD -o target alef_src.$O cc_src.$O This failed, because some declarations in alef.h and /sys/include/*h mismatch. An example: grep realloc alef.h void *realloc(void*, uint); grep realloc *h libc.h extern void* realloc(void*, long); and uint is not a long. Question: Exist an alef implementation without these problems? Thanks for your help. -hp From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Thu Aug 11 08:54:01 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <294490>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:47:15 -0400 Received: from plan9.research.att.com ([192.20.225.252]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <292748>; Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:46:51 -0400 From: philw@plan9.research.att.com To: plan9-fans Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:45:54 -0400 Subject: re: $CC <---> $ALEF Message-Id: <94Aug11.084651edt.292748@psuvax1.cse.psu.edu> Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans ALEF uses a different calling convention from C. You cannot mix languages. From plan9-fans-outgoing-owner Fri Aug 12 03:15:21 1994 Received: by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu id <292019>; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 03:05:15 -0400 Received: from thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE ([131.173.161.1]) by psuvax1.cse.psu.edu with SMTP id <291990>; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 03:04:52 -0400 Received: from frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE by thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29082; Fri, 12 Aug 94 09:04:31 +0200 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 03:04:31 -0400 From: bischof@frigga.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE (Hans-Peter Bischof) Message-Id: <9408120704.AA29082@thor.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE> To: plan9-fans@cse.psu.edu.informatik.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE Subject: re: $CC <---> $ALEF Sender: owner-plan9-fans Precedence: bulk Reply-To: plan9-fans Dear Sir, thanks for your answer. Hans-Peter Bischof