>From owner-9fans Mon Sep 1 04:49:34 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA06378 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:49:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from nol.net (uucp@dazed.nol.net [206.126.32.101]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA06374 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 04:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nol.net (8.8.5/NOL - 8.*) id DAA09658 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:49:12 -0500 (CDT) X-AUTH: NOLNET SENDMAIL AUTH Received: from UNKNOWN(206.126.32.110), claiming to be "grassy.nol.net" via SMTP by dazed, id smtpdAAAa002Mn; Mon Sep 1 03:49:09 1997 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:49:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Brandon Black To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes In-Reply-To: <9708311040.AA04893@mwtech.rent-a-guru.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I never thought about EMT... my vision has always been basically a VR helmet and a glove (existing hardware). Just need the software to be there... speech recognition for "keyboard" input and command phrases, the glove for object manipulation (like a 3D mouse), and the head tracking for either moving your view around in a 360 degree desktop area, or for focus... I sure wish interface technology would keep up with the rest of the computer world. When I think how fast my mind is churning out sets of unix commands I want to type in various windows, and how fast the machine can handle them, it becomes obvious that the user interface is really slowing us both down. Brandon On Sun, 31 Aug 1997, Martin Weitzel wrote: > > > > Are you thinking foot pedal or movable foot-attachment-thingy? What would > > you call it? The POSSUM? Hum... Microsoft possum... Logitech possum... > > > > A Possum protocol!? > > :-) :-) > > I hope some day there will be reliable EMT-devices, i.e. > "Eye Movement Trackers". Why use my hands -- or feet -- > to move a "pointer" over something I'm already looking at? > (Of course, such a EMT-device had to work from remote, I > don't want to wear special hardware on my head.) Then > throw in speech recognition and we would have really new, > cool ways to interact with a computer ... > >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 1 11:02:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA08035 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from asiaonline.net (asiaonline.net [202.85.0.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08024 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ip94_91.asiaonline.net (ip94_91.asiaonline.net [202.85.94.91]) by asiaonline.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA00552 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:01:25 +0800 (HKT) From: 93925730@plink.cityu.edu.hk (David P. FOK) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] (fwd) Installation problem Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 15:14:29 GMT Organization: CityU of HK Message-ID: <340adb90.1085601@mail.asiaonline.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:55:27 GMT, in comp.os.plan9 93925730@plink.cityu.edu.hk (David P. FOK) wrote: Dear Experts, I've tried to install the system (Intel try-out version) onto a 4.3G EIDE HD but failed. Everything seems fine until I select the "Install the 3-floppy version" option. The installation application complains about "Not enough disk space" when there's a 100MB DOS system as well as when the disk is blank. Any clue for this? Thanks in advance! -david ps. How can I subscribe to the 9fans mailing list? >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 1 11:09:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA08191 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:09:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08187 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709011509.LAA08187@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:08:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Oh yeah, great: eye tracking and mind reading. You think orthopedists' bills are high; wait until you need ophthamologists to see anything and endless psychoanalysis to put your brain back together. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 1 12:33:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id MAA09019 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:33:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09015 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:33:48 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709011633.MAA09015@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:25:31 -0400 Subject: re: [9fans] (fwd) Installation problem Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans there's a problem with eide drives > 2Gb due to a sign sign extension bug in the driver (the 'start' argument of ataxfer() should be of type ulong, not long). perhaps someone could make a new kernel for you or you could subsitute a smaller drive to get up then you can make the change yourself. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 1 13:41:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA09606 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:41:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (punt-2d.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.9]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09602 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk ([194.222.126.246]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa1228362; 1 Sep 97 17:50 BST Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitecrow.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06208 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:33:47 +0100 Message-Id: <199709011533.QAA06208@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 05/05/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Sep 1997 11:08:54 EDT." <199709011509.LAA08187@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:33:47 +0100 From: Steve Kilbane Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Rob wrote: > Oh yeah, great: eye tracking and mind reading. > You think orthopedists' bills are high; wait until > you need ophthamologists to see anything and > endless psychoanalysis to put your brain back > together. Ok, so it's been mentioned (on this list, I think) that research has shown that moving to voice-operated interfaces gets rid of wrist RSI, but causes voicebox RSI. Whatever you use you wear out. What's the answer? "Today's random interface uses...feet!" Personally, I'm fond of the concept of dumping the keyboard altogether, and replacing it with two five-button mice. :-) >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 00:19:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA14705 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:19:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14701 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26141 invoked by uid 991); 2 Sep 1997 04:19:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19970902041948.26140.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "G. David Butler" Subject: re: [9fans] (fwd) Installation problem Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 00:19:48 EDT Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com >there's a problem with eide drives > 2Gb due to a sign sign extension bug >in the driver (the 'start' argument of ataxfer() should be of type ulong, >not long). >perhaps someone could make a new kernel for you or you could subsitute >a smaller >drive to get up then you can make the change yourself. Try: ftp://ftp.dbSystems.com/pub/PLAN9/pcdist/9dos Just ignore the multi-ethernet support and speed... :-) >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 09:35:29 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA18079 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:35:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18070 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu3 [143.106.7.7]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13570 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:31:00 -0300 (EST) Received: from sabbath (sabbath [143.106.16.153]) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06008 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:30:58 -0300 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970902132556.008cd8bc@dcc.unicamp.br> X-Sender: 973930@dcc.unicamp.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:25:56 -0300 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Franklin Robert Araujo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7a?= <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> Subject: [9fans] Questions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I have installed Plan 9 and I'm with the following questions: 1. How clear the display? Is there a similar command such "clear" of Unix? 2. How Can I use the last command without type it again? 3. How abort a command? Is there a similar command such "^C" of Unix? 4. Is there a command " FIND"? 5. In the manual there is a command called "listen" but in my system, this command not exist. How do I for use it? 6. How do I for subscribe the fans list? Thanks. Franklin. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 11:04:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA20070 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:04:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.ch.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20064 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.ch.genedata.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13255 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:02:42 +0200 Message-ID: <340C2A8F.4AD8C829@genedata.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:02:39 +0200 From: elliott Organization: GeneData AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions References: <1.5.4.32.19970902132556.008cd8bc@dcc.unicamp.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Franklin Robert Araujo Fran=E7a wrote: > 1. How clear the display? Is there a similar command such "clear" of > Unix? what display are you talking about? the console, or an 8.5 typescript? i altered 8.5 to accept another command in a window's control file that would select all the text in the window and delete it. i imagine 8.5's author would say that you should throw that typescript away and open a new one, but the PC i used to use Plan 9 on wasn't fast enough to make that as comfortable as a "clear" utility. plus i was probably typing it out of Unix habit. you could clear the console too, using bitblt(), but i can't imagine you using the console that much. > 2. How Can I use the last command without type it again? sweep the text with button 1, then choose "Send" from the button 2 menu. edit the text first if you don't want to repeat it verbatim. or you could try acme, where you sweep the text with button 2, and it's executed as you let go the button. > 3. How abort a command? Is there a similar command such "^C" of Unix? erm, ^C, i think. certainly on my version of 8.5 but i may have altered that too. read the 8.5 man page: it'll tell you what the interrupt character is [i just checked: it's Del by default]. because 8.5 handles this, there's no messing with stty. > 4. Is there a command " FIND"? there's no find as standard, but i think forsyth wrote one. i seem to remember him calling it a hack to let him get an NNTP server running; a real find would be tricky, i suppose. > 5. In the manual there is a command called "listen" but in my system, > this command not exist. How do I for use it? are you sure there's a man page for listen in section 1? that's where the commands are. i only remember listen(2) which is the part of the programmatic interface to the network, and listen(8) which is the daemon. i'd have thought it would be running already but if you really want to run it, remember that you need to run aux/listen. > 6. How do I for subscribe the fans list? an email with "subscribe name email" in the body. or is it the other way around (email name)? -- = Elliott Hughes - GeneData AG, Postfach 254, CH-4016 Basel, Switzerland mailto:elliott.hughes@genedata.com http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 11:27:05 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA20819 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:27:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20815 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20381; Tue, 2 Sep 97 16:27:49 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCB7BD.14A39CA0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:27:18 +0100 Message-Id: From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: [9fans] Questions Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:27:16 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >> 4. Is there a command " FIND"? > >there's no find as standard, but i think forsyth wrote one. i seem to >remember him calling it a hack to let him get an NNTP server running; a >real find would be tricky, i suppose. > >du -a / | grep filename >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 11:56:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA21764 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:56:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pixar.com (pixar.pixar.com [138.72.10.20]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21760 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marvin.pixar.com (marvin.pixar.com [138.72.30.83]) by pixar.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA00455 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by marvin.pixar.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0x5vIr-00K89BC; Tue, 2 Sep 97 08:55 PDT From: "Tom Duff" Message-Id: <9709020855.ZM18281@marvin> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:55:41 -0700 In-Reply-To: Martin Weitzel "Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes" (Aug 31, 11:40am) References: <9708311040.AA04893@mwtech.rent-a-guru.de> Reply-To: td@pixar.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Aug 31, 11:40am, Martin Weitzel wrote: > I hope some day there will be reliable EMT-devices, i.e. > "Eye Movement Trackers". Why use my hands -- or feet -- > to move a "pointer" over something I'm already looking at? Great idea!!? If you think RSI in your hands is bad, wait until you get it in your eyes. -- Tom Duff, KF6LWB >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 13:22:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA24682 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:22:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from echo.cs.unr.edu (echo.cs.unr.edu [134.197.40.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24673 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ed@localhost) by echo.cs.unr.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04584 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:22:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:22:08 -0700 From: Ed Wishart Message-Id: <199709021722.KAA04584@echo.cs.unr.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Here are a couple of rc scripts that I wrote some years back to look for files in the file system hierarchy . They run slow but do maintain the limited view of the file system one gets ignoring binds. e.g. started in home directory, they will search rc/bin but not get lost in /bin even though rc/bin is bound to /bin. --------------------------------------- #!/bin/rc #recursive decent of file system, with local directory stack and #internal execution of this file. ed wishart, nov '93 if(~ $#* 0 1) { echo 'Usage: find directory file1 file2 ...' exit 1 } dir = $1 shift if(! test -d $dir) { echo 'First argumant must be a directory' exit 1 } cd $dir for(file in `{ls}) { if(~ $file $*) { echo `{pwd}^/^$file } if(test -d $file) { dstack = `{echo `{pwd} $dstack} # echo 'dstack =' $dstack . find $file $* cd $dstack(1) dstack = $dstack(`{seq 2 $#dstack}) } } -------------------------------------------------------- #!/bin/rc #recursive traversal of file tree with environments managed by #rc o its execution stack. ed wishart nov '93 if(~ $#* 0 1) { echo 'Usage: find directory file1 file2 ...' exit 1 } dir = $1 shift if(! test -d $dir) { echo 'First argumant must be a directory' exit 1 } cd $dir for(file in `{ls -p }) { if(~ $file $*) { echo `{pwd}^/^$file } if(test -d $file) { find2 $file $* } } Note, the above assumes file in named find2 ed wishart >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 16:12:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA29377 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:12:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29371 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29116 invoked by uid 991); 2 Sep 1997 20:12:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19970902201227.29115.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "G. David Butler" Subject: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:12:27 EDT Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello everyone. I have been quiet for a while, but that is just the quiet before the storm. I have some new things I want to discuss! My current project is to add transaction support to the process model with full log protected file servers. I plan to use the multi-version consistency model and distributed commits to multiple file servers involved in the transaction. The primitives are from a Bell Labs paper "A Flexible Transaction Facility for an Object-Oriented Database" from 5 Dec 92. (To keep it in the family.) The system is will not be object-oriented (unless you want to consider a "file" or a "directory" a class). The primitives are useful for implementing transaction models that are interesting. The changes are extensive. The file protocal 9P is changed (to add the idea of a transaction to the current idea of a user.) Several system calls are changed and a few added to internalize the idea of a transaction. I am just starting. I am planing three transaction modes. Read Committed, Serializable and Plan9. The latter is Read Committed and Write Commit. The primitives allow "cursor stability", savepoint/rollback, nested and chained transactions, to name a few. The plan for the system is to build low cost data intensive application servers for the Internet. I belive that transactional semantics are required in any large scale distributed system and current systems are cost prohibitive. In addition, the current state of the art is to run a database on top of an operating system. I believe there is a lot of efficiences to be gained by making them one. Just pick an issue and let's get going... David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 2 23:26:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id XAA05841 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:26:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA05837 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 23:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 29863 invoked by uid 991); 3 Sep 1997 03:25:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19970903032558.29861.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] 9fans archives Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 23:25:58 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I've put a link to the 9fans archives on my web page . Indexing is rudimentary, just a grep of subject lines . Also on my web page, I've coined the new longest word in computer science, antidisenhancementarianism, which describes the campaign by non-mothra web browser vendors to cause ocular RSI, as well as the more general trends away from the sort of quiet class that 9fans appreciate. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 00:04:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA06381 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:04:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06374 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709030404.AAA06374@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:01:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] alternative SCSI controller Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I've added the following to CHANGES.txt on the web site. Thanks to Mark and DPT for their support. 02-Sep-97 9/contrib/dpt ======================= This is a clarification from Mark Salyzyn (dpt.com!salyzyn_mark) of the hardware supported by the DPT driver: All the PCI cards made by DPT will work with this driver. These cards include the PM2024, PM2124, PM2044, PM2144, PM3224 and PM3334. RAID and Cache support is part of the firmware of the card and needs no driver support to utilize these features. The PM3334 supports, with the appropriately wired backplane, HOT target swapping (for RAID arrays). The add-on features supported by the DPT controller card and Plan 9 driver include: 1) Up to 64MB of configurable cache. 2) Firmware RAID-0 (striping), RAID-1 (mirroring) and RAID-5 (multi- drive redundant arrays of up to 18 drives each). 3) Hot Swapping of targets in RAID-1 and RAID-5 arrays, with appropriate hardware. 4) Hot Spares The features not supported at this moment: 1) Command Queueing (? a driver/OS issue). 2) Passthrough (allowing native OS configuration and rebuilding of arrays). 3) Software RAID (striping of arrays across adapters). 4) Multichannel Cards (The PM3334 can support up to 3 wide SCSI channels). 5) Server-On-Call redundant server. Sincerely -- Mark Salyzyn Senior Software Engineer Distributed Processing Technology >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 00:07:54 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA06546 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:07:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:07:50 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709030407.AAA06542@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:05:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] diamond 3D 3400 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Charles Forsyth is correct in noting that 640x480x8 doesn't work properly. If no one else has figured out why then I'll have a look when some more pressing matters are resolved. --jim >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 16:53:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA04595 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:53:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (punt-1c.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.136]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04588 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk ([194.222.126.246]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1118942; 3 Sep 97 21:45 BST Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitecrow.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08840 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:37:25 +0100 Message-Id: <199709030937.KAA08840@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 05/05/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:02:39 +0200." <340C2A8F.4AD8C829@genedata.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 10:37:25 +0100 From: Steve Kilbane Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > > 3. How abort a command? Is there a similar command such "^C" of Unix= ? > = > because 8.5 handles > this, there's no messing with stty. which also means that there isn't a ^C equivalent until you run 8.5. > > 4. Is there a command " FIND"? > = > a > real find would be tricky, i suppose. [ those without a strong stomach are advised to stop reading here ] If you can compile the Plan 9 port of Perl, then the File::Find libraries should work, and I seem to recall the Perl distribution including a version of find(1) as part of the demos. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 18:02:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id SAA06191 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:02:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (punt-1c.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.136]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06187 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk ([194.222.126.246]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1118927; 3 Sep 97 21:45 BST Received: from whitecrow.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitecrow.demon.co.uk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08864 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:42:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199709030942.KAA08864@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 05/05/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Sep 1997 10:25:56 -0300." <1.5.4.32.19970902132556.008cd8bc@dcc.unicamp.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 10:42:06 +0100 From: Steve Kilbane Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > 1. How clear the display? Is there a similar command such "clear" of Unix? I don't have a system to hand to check this, but I seem to recall that this should be a simple shell script to write the null string to the body file of the 8.5 window (I could be getting confused with acme, though). >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 23:37:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id XAA09961 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:37:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA09957 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:37:12 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709040337.XAA09957@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:30:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] diamond 3D 3400 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The following is better, but the cursor problem has me stumped. All the register values look correct but it's as if the cursor were transparent. I suspect that's the case and the cursor image is being picked up from somewhere else in memory. 03-Sep-97 cmd/aux/vga ===================== The following change allows the ViRGE/VX cards to work at 640x480x8 and 800x600x8. Unfortunately the hardware cursor refuses to work at 640x480x8, no idea why. a% yesterday -d virge.c diff /n/dump/1997/0903/sys/src/cmd/aux/vga/virge.c virge.c 131c131 < if(vga->mode->z == 8) --- > if(vga->mode->x > 800 && vga->mode->z == 8) a% ------ forwarded message follows ------ >From cse.psu.edu!owner-9fans Wed Sep 3 00:08:36 EDT 1997 Received: from cse.psu.edu ([130.203.3.50]) by plan9; Wed Sep 3 00:08:36 EDT 1997 Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06578; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by claven.cse.psu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:07:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA06546 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:07:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:07:50 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk Message-Id: <199709030407.AAA06542@cse.psu.edu> To: cse.psu.edu!9fans Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:05:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] diamond 3D 3400 Sender: cse.psu.edu!owner-9fans Reply-To: cse.psu.edu!9fans Precedence: bulk Charles Forsyth is correct in noting that 640x480x8 doesn't work properly. If no one else has figured out why then I'll have a look when some more pressing matters are resolved. --jim >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 09:02:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA13159 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:02:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13140 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu3 [143.106.7.7]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26567 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:57:56 -0300 (EST) Received: from sabbath (sabbath [143.106.16.153]) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09223 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:57:52 -0300 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970904125220.008edbd8@dcc.unicamp.br> X-Sender: 973930@dcc.unicamp.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:52:20 -0300 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Franklin Robert Araujo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7a?= <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> Subject: [9fans] question Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Is there in Plan 9 a command like "clear" of UNIX or "clrscr" of DOS? Franklin. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 10:25:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA00671 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:25:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from asiaonline.net (asiaonline.net [202.85.0.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00661 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ip97_136.asiaonline.net (ip97_136.asiaonline.net [202.85.97.136]) by asiaonline.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03061 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:22:39 +0800 (HKT) From: 93925730@plink.cityu.edu.hk (David P. FOK) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] (fwd) Installation problem Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 14:35:29 GMT Organization: CityU of HK Message-ID: <340ec614.527467@mail.asiaonline.net> References: <19970902041948.26140.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> In-Reply-To: <19970902041948.26140.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Dear Experts, Thanks a lot for your suggestions. The 9dos from dbSystems refuses to do the installation also. I think I need to get a <2G HD. Thanks again, -david On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 04:33:50 GMT, in comp.os.plan9 you wrote: >From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com >>there's a problem with eide drives > 2Gb due to a sign sign extension = bug >>in the driver (the 'start' argument of ataxfer() should be of type = ulong, >>not long). > >>perhaps someone could make a new kernel for you or you could subsitute >>a smaller >>drive to get up then you can make the change yourself. > >Try: ftp://ftp.dbSystems.com/pub/PLAN9/pcdist/9dos > >Just ignore the multi-ethernet support and speed... :-) >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 10:40:40 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA01300 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:40:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01296 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 5734 invoked by uid 991); 4 Sep 1997 14:40:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19970904144029.5733.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "G. David Butler" Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 10:40:29 EDT Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans [This didn't come in via the mailing list, I had to pluck it off news] From: forsyth@caldo.DEmon.co.UK >i'd have put transaction control files in the name space >of the transaction server. those files >would be written to announce and describe transactions, >and set transaction modes, and perhaps read to discover state. >i'd do this for much the reason >that plan 9 has got /net/tcp and /net/ether >rather than specialised system calls for sockets. I thought about this first (it is Plan9!). Adding to each server an /adm/trans file that could be written with "start", "abort", "commit", etc. There are many problems with this. First, the process may not know all of the servers that are bound in. Next, 9P does not preserve process boundaries only user. (Look at the 9P calls from a fork some day.) Even if you addressed those issues, how does the server know one read/write from another? The mnt driver multiplexes things very well. >it would be useful, however, to see what your new >system calls are, to get a more concrete feel for why >you felt you needed them. The calls are like begintrans(type), committrans(), aborttrans(); pretty conventional. The kernel would then have to add the transaction to most messages and allow for some "file systems" to ignore them. This is where you add 9P messages and the associated entry points to each 9P server. (Read that as each device driver needs to be changed to support or ignore transactions.) The bottom line is that each 9P message (with some added like attacht, clonet, precommitt, committ, clunkt) would go from Tblah [tag] [fid] ... to Tblah [tag] [tid] [fid] David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 11:29:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA02581 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:29:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pixar.com (pixar.pixar.com [138.72.10.20]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02577 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marvin.pixar.com (marvin.pixar.com [138.72.30.83]) by pixar.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA03694 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by marvin.pixar.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0x6dq6-00K89aC; Thu, 4 Sep 97 08:28 PDT From: "Tom Duff" Message-Id: <9709040828.ZM17146@marvin> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:28:58 -0700 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Franklin_Robert_Araujo_Fran=E7a__=3C973930=40d?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?cc=2Eunicamp=2Ebr=3E _______=22=5B9fans=5D_question=22_=28Sep__4=2C__9=3A52am=29?= References: <1.5.4.32.19970904125220.008edbd8@dcc.unicamp.br> Reply-To: td@pixar.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART-BOUNDARY=.19709040828.ZM17146.marvin" Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans --PART-BOUNDARY=.19709040828.ZM17146.marvin Content-Description: Text Content-Type: text/plain ; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Zm-Decoding-Hint: mimencode -q -u On Sep 4, 9:52am, Franklin Robert Araujo Fran=E7a wrote: > Is there in Plan 9 a command like "clear" of UNIX or "clrscr" = of DOS? Just push the down-arrow key a couple of times & all text will scroll offscreen. -- = Tom Duff, KF6LWB --PART-BOUNDARY=.19709040828.ZM17146.marvin-- >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 13:06:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA03844 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:06:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from trantor.cse.psu.edu (root@trantor.cse.psu.edu [130.203.3.13]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03829 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by trantor.cse.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA17863 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com ([135.104.1.3]) by dirty; Thu Sep 4 12:21:14 EDT 1997 Received: from allegra.tempo.bell-labs.com ([192.11.35.2]) by research; Thu Sep 4 12:21:13 EDT 1997 Received: from aura (aura.tempo.bell-labs.com) by allegra.tempo.bell-labs.com; id AA25476; Thu, 4 Sep 97 12:21:14 EDT Received: by aura; id MAA21107; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:20:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:20:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Eran Gabber Subject: Re: [9fans] question To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970904125220.008edbd8@dcc.unicamp.br> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Franklin Robert Araujo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7a?= wrote: > Is there in Plan 9 a command like "clear" of UNIX or "clrscr" of DOS? > > Franklin. > The following program clears the current 8.5 window. It behaves much like Unix "clear". Enjoy. Eran ====== /* * Clear the window */ #include #include #include void main(int argc, char *argv[]) { binit(0, 0, 0); bitblt(&screen, screen.clipr.min, &screen, screen.clipr, Zero); bflush(); exits(""); } >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 17:36:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA11578 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:36:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11573 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA03762; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:32:29 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:32:29 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709042132.QAA03762@ns.dbSystems.com> To: rsalz@opengroup.org Subject: Re: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Rich Salz >have you looked at the IETF TIP protocol? >Like all IETF work (well except for patented public-key stuff :), IETF >specs can be freely implemented without charge. TIP is a transaction >protocol intended to sit over a variety of transports. It's being >proposed by Tandem and Microsoft. I wonder when using the word *irco*oft will automatically discount anything as a *real* solution, the way *BM does now (but they are getting better.) [Sorry, the devil made me do it.] >Check out http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/tip-charter.html Thanks for the URL. I read the draft and it is the old 70's 2P Commit Protocol. Many databases only implement up to isolation level 2 and sometimes 3. In those cases old 2PC works fine. To go to isolation level 4 in a distributed database you need *more*. I will implement TIP on the TCP side of the platform (in the CPU servers) but I need something stronger on the IL side with the file servers. Thanks for the info. David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 19:12:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id TAA12912 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:12:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA12908 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:12:32 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709042312.TAA12908@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:37:59 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] question Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >> Is there in Plan 9 a command like "clear" of UNIX or "clrscr" of DOS? out of interest, why? >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 4 23:38:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id XAA01188 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:38:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01184 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA03950; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:34:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:34:27 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709050334.WAA03950@ns.dbSystems.com> To: mike@ducky.net Subject: Re: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Mike Haertel > >> To go to isolation level 4 in a distributed database >>you need *more*. > >That's interesting. I've been trying to gain an understanding >of transaction processing. I'm only familiar with the 2P commit >stuff. Do you have any references on the sort of protocols you >need to get the high isolation levels in a distributing setting? >Especially interested in on-line stuff; I don't have easy access >to a university library. Well, you can look at distributed OSs like amoeba or distributed middleware like ISIS. A good place for transaction info is the Transaction Processing Performance Council (www.tpc.org) of TPC-A,B,C&D fame. For my part, since everyone is so patent crazy now, I just roll my own... (and document the hell out of the dates and processes.) David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 5 05:50:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA03305 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03301 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 05:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA23704; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:06:12 +0200 Message-ID: <19970905120612.49415@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:06:12 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] XaoS30 and plan9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi I slowly finishing work at XaoS3.0 (an fractal zoomer) and I want to make plan9 port working again. So do you have any ideas for improvements? But main purpose why I write this email is, that this version has also thread support for SMP boxes. I want to make threaded version for plan9 too, since I want to try its API (and compare it with posix and beos one). I don't have SMP machine, so I would be greatly interested if someone own such machine and has some time to test XaoS before it will be released to let me know how it works/ do some speed comparsion tests. I thinking also about networked version of XaoS, but this should be much more complex problem, so possibly I will solve it later (in 3.1 :) XaoS routines needs be very fast and synchronization for clauclation over net should require lots of everhead so it should be slower than running at single machine. Thanks Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Sun Sep 7 15:59:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA14327 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:59:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from nol.net (uucp@dazed.nol.net [206.126.32.101]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14323 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nol.net (8.8.5/NOL - 8.*) id OAA06087 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:58:56 -0500 (CDT) X-AUTH: NOLNET SENDMAIL AUTH Received: from UNKNOWN(206.126.32.110), claiming to be "grassy.nol.net" via SMTP by dazed, id smtpdAAAa001V5; Sun Sep 7 14:58:56 1997 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:58:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Brandon Black To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 In-Reply-To: <199709050334.WAA03950@ns.dbSystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, G. David Butler wrote: > From: Mike Haertel > > > >> To go to isolation level 4 in a distributed database > >>you need *more*. > > > >That's interesting. I've been trying to gain an understanding > >of transaction processing. I'm only familiar with the 2P commit > >stuff. Do you have any references on the sort of protocols you > >need to get the high isolation levels in a distributing setting? > >Especially interested in on-line stuff; I don't have easy access > >to a university library. > > Well, you can look at distributed OSs like amoeba or distributed > middleware like ISIS. A good place for transaction info is > the Transaction Processing Performance Council (www.tpc.org) > of TPC-A,B,C&D fame. Check out commercial middle ware "Tuxedo" by BEA software too... It is distributed application management and OLTP as well I believe. I haven't seen it yet, but one of our architecture guys was looking at it and he really liked it. > > For my part, since everyone is so patent crazy now, I just roll > my own... (and document the hell out of the dates and processes.) > > David Butler > gdb@dbSystems.com > >From owner-9fans Sun Sep 7 16:01:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA14393 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:01:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from nol.net (uucp@dazed.nol.net [206.126.32.101]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14383 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nol.net (8.8.5/NOL - 8.*) id PAA06398 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:00:48 -0500 (CDT) X-AUTH: NOLNET SENDMAIL AUTH Received: from UNKNOWN(206.126.32.110), claiming to be "grassy.nol.net" via SMTP by dazed, id smtpdAAAa001Zt; Sun Sep 7 15:00:42 1997 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:00:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Brandon Black To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS30 and plan9 In-Reply-To: <19970905120612.49415@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans For the network stuff... at least on *nix machines you could use the PVM libraries... POVRay is built with them to make a distributed version called "PVMPOV". Brandon On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jan Hubicka wrote: > Hi > I slowly finishing work at XaoS3.0 (an fractal zoomer) and I want to make > plan9 port working again. So do you have any ideas for improvements? > But main purpose why I write this email is, that this version has also > thread support for SMP boxes. > I want to make threaded version for plan9 too, since I want to try > its API (and compare it with posix and beos one). I don't have SMP machine, > so I would be greatly interested if someone own such machine and has some > time to test XaoS before it will be released to let me know how it works/ > do some speed comparsion tests. > I thinking also about networked version of XaoS, but this should be much > more complex problem, so possibly I will solve it later (in 3.1 :) > XaoS routines needs be very fast and synchronization for clauclation > over net should require lots of everhead so it should be slower than > running at single machine. > > Thanks > Honza > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: > http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka > Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 > czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and > funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! > >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 04:48:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA20152 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:48:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA20148 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 04:48:04 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709080848.EAA20148@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 07:18:05 BST Subject: Re: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>Check out commercial middle ware "Tuxedo" by BEA software too... It is AT&T and later Unix System Labs developed and sold a transaction processing system called `Tuxedo' in the late 80s or early 90s. are they by any chance related? (mind you, USL might have done better selling dinner jackets for all the good they did with Unix.) >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 05:10:17 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA20435 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:10:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA20431 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19014; Mon, 8 Sep 97 10:11:00 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCBC3F.6E4FB410@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:10:27 +0100 Message-Id: From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:10:26 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Yes, I remember that. It was exactly light on it's feet. >-----Original Message----- >From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk [SMTP:forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk] >Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 8:18 AM >To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >Subject: Re: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 > >>>Check out commercial middle ware "Tuxedo" by BEA software too... It is > >AT&T and later Unix System Labs developed and sold a transaction processing >system >called `Tuxedo' in the late 80s or early 90s. are they by any chance >related? >(mind you, USL might have done better selling dinner jackets >for all the good they did with Unix.) >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 05:30:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA20648 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:30:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA20644 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19130; Mon, 8 Sep 97 10:31:32 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCBC42.4CCA21B0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:31:00 +0100 Message-Id: From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:30:57 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Damme. I meant "it _wasn't_ exactly light on it's feet". >-----Original Message----- >From: Nigel Roles [SMTP:ngr@symbionics.co.uk] >Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 10:10 AM >To: '9fans@cse.psu.edu' >Subject: RE: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 > >Yes, I remember that. It was exactly light on it's feet. > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk [SMTP:forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk] >>Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 8:18 AM >>To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >>Subject: Re: Red: [9fans] Adding transaction semantics to Plan9 >> >>>>Check out commercial middle ware "Tuxedo" by BEA software too... It is >> >>AT&T and later Unix System Labs developed and sold a transaction processing >>system >>called `Tuxedo' in the late 80s or early 90s. are they by any chance >>related? >>(mind you, USL might have done better selling dinner jackets >>for all the good they did with Unix.) >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 05:32:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA20750 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:32:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA20745 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA11268; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:47:12 +0200 Message-ID: <19970908114712.07898@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:47:12 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi yesterday I got first version of XaoS of plan9 vorking but it still has following serious problems: XaoS sometimes calcualtes thinks like 1.0/0.0 and expect that result will be Inf or any other garbage. It still produces correct results. I decided for this way because it avoids many if (x. (I can send you full text of this message tommorow). When I uncoment last 5 formulas everything works, so problem don't seems to be in included file source nor in formulas (since they compiles well at all other platform). So do you have any idea what caused this problem? BTW how does typedefs in plan9 works? Why code #ifndef AAA #define AAA typedef double test; #endif won't work when included twice? BTW is there any users of XaoS for plan9? or I am making this port just for my own fun? :) Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 05:36:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA20903 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:36:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA20899 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA11303; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:51:54 +0200 Message-ID: <19970908115153.04967@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:51:53 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS30 and plan9 References: <19970905120612.49415@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: ; from Brandon Black on Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 03:00:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 03:00:42PM -0500, Brandon Black wrote: > > > For the network stuff... at least on *nix machines you could use the PVM > libraries... POVRay is built with them to make a distributed version > called "PVMPOV". Thanks, I will definitivly take a look at this, but main problem is that I can't imagine main clauclation loop w/o freqent comunication between computers. At least each must have complette source image, wich should involve 1MB or more transfers to each computer per frame (20 times per second) and thats impossible. So I have to think about less optimal, but networkable calculation loops. Honza > > Brandon > > On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jan Hubicka wrote: > >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 06:09:31 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id GAA21239 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:09:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA21235 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 06:09:27 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709081009.GAA21235@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:39:34 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>Best case is of course to set coprocesor into ignoring mode, if there is >>any way to do that, it should be much faster, since it avoids unnecesary man 2 getfcr ? >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 18:04:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id SAA08022 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:04:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from firewall.telecom.co.nz (ingate.telecom.co.nz [146.171.254.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08018 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by firewall.telecom.co.nz (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI.AUTO) for <9fans@cse.psu.edu> id KAA17671; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:04:51 +1200 Received: from ish.telecom.co.nz(146.171.1.1) by firewall.telecom.co.nz via smap (3.1) id xma017661; Tue, 9 Sep 97 10:04:46 +1200 Received: from telecom.co.nz ([146.171.53.205]) by ish.telecom.co.nz (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA13846 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:02:12 +1200 Received: from DOM#u#AKGATE-Message_Server by telecom.co.nz with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 09 Sep 1997 10:04:02 +1200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 10:00:33 +1200 From: Stephen Simon To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi all, Don't joke about 5 button mice - I rembember a small box being marketed in the early 1980s that had 4 or 5 buttons, 16 character LCD display, an RS232 interface and basic word processing software (?!). You formed letters using combinations of button presses and could use it as a keyboard replacement or to pre-enter text before downloading when you reached the office. The claim was that users could type *real* fast using this box. Sadly I never bought or even tried one, however I always thought it was a great idea, and with a bouse ball on the bottom... more RSI I suspose. -Steve >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 8 21:21:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id VAA10730 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:21:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10724 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from adagio.halcyon.com (frankg@coho.halcyon.com [198.137.231.21]) by mail1.halcyon.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04458 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by adagio.halcyon.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCBD04.0650AAC0@adagio.halcyon.com>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:44 +-100 Message-ID: <01BCBD04.0650AAC0@adagio.halcyon.com> From: Frank Gleason To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:37:23 +-100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCBD04.0650AAC0" Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCBD04.0650AAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use it to soak up idle time. plan9, fun >= 2 frankg >.... >BTW is there any users of XaoS for plan9? or I am making this port just >for my own fun? :) >Honza >-- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCBD04.0650AAC0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiwIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ABABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAEEAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAAA5ZmFuc0Bjc2UucHN1LmVkdQBTTVRQADlmYW5zQGNzZS5wc3UuZWR1AAAAAB4AAjAB AAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAASAAAAOWZhbnNAY3NlLnBzdS5lZHUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA /g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAUAAAAJzlmYW5zQGNzZS5wc3UuZWR1JwACAQswAQAAABcAAABTTVRQOjlG QU5TQENTRS5QU1UuRURVAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA8AtAQiABwAY AAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIABADAAAABSRTogWzlmYW5zXSBwb3J0aW5n IFhhb1MzLjAgdG8gcGxhbjkgKHByb2JsZW1zKQC1DwEFgAMADgAAAM0HCQAJAAkAJQAXAAIALQEB IIADAA4AAADNBwkACQAJACIAKQACADwBAQmAAQAhAAAAODlDRDY2NDBGNjI4RDExMUIxNzc0NDQ1 NTM1NDAwMDAAyAYBA5AGAOQCAAASAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABA ADkAYCo0mPu8vAEeAHAAAQAAADAAAABSRTogWzlmYW5zXSBwb3J0aW5nIFhhb1MzLjAgdG8gcGxh bjkgKHByb2JsZW1zKQACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvLz7mCxAZs2KKPYR0bF3REVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEwAAAGZyYW5rZ0BoYWxjeW9uLmNvbQAAAwAGEHyOsJkDAAcQ dAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElVU0VJVFRPU09BS1VQSURMRVRJTUVQTEFOOSxGVU49MkZSQU5LR0JU V0lTVEhFUkVBTllVU0VSU09GWEFPU0ZPUlBMQU45P09SSUFNTUFLSU5HVEhJU1BPUlRKVVNURk9S TVkAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABUAQAAUAEAALcCAABMWkZ1lj3gNv8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gK wHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2x C2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFF1C/JjAEAgCoUKhRvASSQgdRGwIGkFQHRvoCBzb2FrHABwHEDUZGwcMHQH cS4a/gtRQG45LCBmdQOgPjg9IDIa/ANQAHBrZzMbZyFiPi4h4QqLbGlcMzYN8BncE1BvE9BjNwVA CocZ7z4jTyRUQlTmVxxABCB0aASQHDAAcAZ5HAIRoCBvZiBYvGFvBfACEAXAHtM/KTCjBcAb8GFt IADAawuAlmcoMSgRcBWxIGocEF50JL8lzyO+KcJtKMBvzncDoB9BKlA6KRr8LL/LLc8kJ0gCIHph MP8yD1kjvi0tGuYVMQA4YAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwQIGpN/u8vAFAAAgwQIGpN/u8vAEe AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAK2+ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCBD04.0650AAC0-- >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 03:28:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA14585 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:28:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14581 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23286; Tue, 9 Sep 97 08:29:01 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCBCFA.5981DCA0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:28:28 +0100 Message-Id: From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:28:27 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Called a Microwriter. The same key system was used more recently on a machine called an Agenda, but they put the keys to close together and wondered why nobody bought it. In fact until you mentioned the Microwriter I'd forgoten all about it! >-----Original Message----- >From: Stephen Simon [SMTP:SFSA@telecom.co.nz] >Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 11:01 PM >To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply > > >Hi all, > >Don't joke about 5 button mice - I rembember a small box being marketed >in the early 1980s that had 4 or 5 buttons, 16 character LCD display, >an RS232 interface and basic word processing software (?!). > >You formed letters using combinations of button presses and could >use it as a keyboard replacement or to pre-enter text before >downloading when you reached the office. The claim was that users >could type *real* fast using this box. > >Sadly I never bought or even tried one, however I always thought it was >a great idea, and with a bouse ball on the bottom... more RSI I suspose. > >-Steve > >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 03:41:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA14774 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:41:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from staff.cs.su.OZ.AU (staff.cs.su.OZ.AU [129.78.8.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14770 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 03:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pgrad.cs.su.OZ.AU. by staff.cs.su.OZ.AU.; Tue, 09 Sep 1997 17:41:12 +1000 X-Claimed-Received: from pgrad.su.oz.au Received: by pgrad.su.oz.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA20279; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:41:12 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:41:12 +1000 Message-Id: <199709090741.RAA20279@pgrad.su.oz.au> From: Gary Capell In-Reply-To: To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: RE: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >Don't joke about 5 button mice - I rembember a small box being marketed > >in the early 1980s that had 4 or 5 buttons, 16 character LCD display, > >an RS232 interface and basic word processing software (?!). > > > >You formed letters using combinations of button presses and could > >use it as a keyboard replacement or to pre-enter text before > >downloading when you reached the office. The claim was that users > >could type *real* fast using this box. It might be interesting to dust this idea off again, and combine it with the new display from Kopin (http://www.kopin.com/). The display is 320x240 pixels, 6mm diameter (you read it with a magnifying lens). You might be able to build a useful computer you can carry in your shirt pocket. Chorded buttons would work better in that case than a stylus. It probably wouldn't sell (noone wants to learn a new form of typing), but I'd like to try one for at least a while. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 04:00:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA15001 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:00:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA14997 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA17295; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:15:54 +0200 Message-ID: <19970909101554.02598@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:15:54 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) References: <199709081009.GAA21235@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709081009.GAA21235@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:39:34AM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:39:34AM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>Best case is of course to set coprocesor into ignoring mode, if there is > >>any way to do that, it should be much faster, since it avoids unnecesary > > man 2 getfcr ? Ok thank you very much, I will read it soon. BTW it is possible to get man for plan9? My demo instalation don't have them, so I have plan9 manpages at my linux box. Reboot always you need some help is not very nice. At least I should copy them to dos partition and read them using acme :) Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 04:07:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA15163 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:07:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA15159 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23429; Tue, 9 Sep 97 09:08:29 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCBCFF.DCEF8BA0@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:07:56 +0100 Message-Id: From: David Johnston To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:07:54 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The Microwriter! A wonderful device. I used to use it to carry files from my Apple ][ upstairs to my BBC micro downstairs. You could stash about 4k of text in the memory once you'd worked out all the bizarre things that they'd done to the serial port. Would anyone care to do an inferno port? >-----Original Message----- >From: Nigel Roles [SMTP:ngr@symbionics.co.uk] >Sent: 09 September 1997 08:28 >To: '9fans@cse.psu.edu' >Subject: RE: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply > >Called a Microwriter. > >The same key system was used more recently on a machine called an >Agenda, but they put the keys to close together and wondered why nobody >bought it. In fact until you mentioned the Microwriter I'd forgoten all >about it! > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Stephen Simon [SMTP:SFSA@telecom.co.nz] >>Sent: Monday, September 08, 1997 11:01 PM >>To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >>Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply >> >> >>Hi all, >> >>Don't joke about 5 button mice - I rembember a small box being marketed >>in the early 1980s that had 4 or 5 buttons, 16 character LCD display, >>an RS232 interface and basic word processing software (?!). >> >>You formed letters using combinations of button presses and could >>use it as a keyboard replacement or to pre-enter text before >>downloading when you reached the office. The claim was that users >>could type *real* fast using this box. >> >>Sadly I never bought or even tried one, however I always thought it was >>a great idea, and with a bouse ball on the bottom... more RSI I suspose. >> >>-Steve >> >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 04:13:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA15322 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA15318 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA17377; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:28:24 +0200 Message-ID: <19970909102824.44591@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:28:24 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi Yesterday I solved problem with compiler - cleaned up code. Everything seems to work now. 9c is nice, that it detects ugly code and automatically refuses it. :) Maybe UGLYNESS constant should be set higher in next version. I also did some cleaning in order to make XaoS smaller but not big success :( Just saved about 8KB of executable... Question 1: Since XaoS now seems to work, I decided to start work at multithreading. I ran into problems with plan9 api. I use following scheme: I have queue with points, each processor takes point from queue, calculates it and its neighbors and adds new points into queue if neccesary. I need an lock to queue to avoid conflicts. I found spinlocks in plan9 API, but I wonder if they eats CPU time or not. At least BeOS implementation of spinlocks is that CPU waits in loop until other CPU unlocks it. It is not what I need, since I want to do tests at singe CPU, where it should make problems.... And other problem is that in case queue is empty, thread has to asleep, since other process should be calculationg some pixel and then when he adds new points into queue, it calls wakeup function to wakeup waiting process, that should start processing new points. At the end, when threads know that he is latest working, and that queue is empty, he sets exit flag and wakes up all threads, they reads exit flag and exits imediately. Is there some sleep/wakeup mechanizm (in combination with locks, since I need to be sure that when process asleeps, queue is empty. So I need stuff similiar to cond in POSIX). Or is there some completly different way to implement this eleganlty using plan9 API? I saw sleep/wakeup implementation in docs. Is this function in libc, or do I need to copy sources? Question 2: What bitmap depts 81/2 currently supports? 1bpp,8bpp and some others? Many thanks to those, who replied to my last question. This list seems to be most helpfull from all lists I ever saw! Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 05:08:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA15759 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:08:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA15755 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:08:19 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709090908.FAA15755@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:39:39 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans see /sys/src/cmd/disk/kfs/libp/port/qlock.c and related files for a user-level QLock and RWLockimplementation. you should be able to implementat what you need with that. note too that sleep(0) will relinquish the CPU. see /sys/src/cmd/exportfs and /sys/src/cmd/telco for other examples of multi-process servers and different approaches to synchronisation. you'll also find a concurrency-safe version of malloc.c in at least one of those directories. most new concurrent programs in Plan 9 are (best) written in Alef, so not much effort has gone into providing a complete programming package for the venerable C. one point that's easy to overlook is that fork(2) notes that rfork(RFPROC|RFMEM) causes ALL subsequent forks to share data. consequently, you need to ensure that einit(...) is called to initialise the graphics event code before you do the first RFMEM rfork, otherwise things can get a little bit confused. as to the second question, i'm afraid that Plan 9 graphics supports only up to 8 bits (0 <= Bitmap.ldepth <= 3). it's not just 8½; it would require a fair amount of effort to change. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 9 05:37:23 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA16055 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:37:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA16051 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 05:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709090937.FAA16051@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:08:38 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>so I have plan9 manpages at my linux box. Reboot always you need some >>help is not very nice. At least I should copy them to dos partition and there are several packages for Plan 9 out on the net that make a user-level file server that will allow you to read, or even read and write, a Linux ext2fs partition. that might make things a little easier for you. Plan 9's man is just an rc script; it's a close relative of the example in the tom duff's rc paper. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 04:29:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA02388 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:29:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02384 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA23755; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:44:47 +0200 Message-ID: <19970910104447.31530@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:44:47 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) References: <199709090937.FAA16051@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709090937.FAA16051@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 08:08:38AM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 08:08:38AM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>so I have plan9 manpages at my linux box. Reboot always you need some > >>help is not very nice. At least I should copy them to dos partition and > > there are several packages for Plan 9 out on the net that make > a user-level file server that will allow you to read, or even read and write, > a Linux ext2fs partition. that might make things a little easier for you. Sounds great! I have to rebrowse 9fans ftp sites :) Is that safe? Plan9 once damaged fat partitions so I am bit more curefull now... BTW is there some other interesting news about plan9? Something changed in distribution poilticy? (I really want to see sources once...) whats about brazil? > > Plan 9's man is just an rc script; it's a close relative of the example > in the tom duff's rc paper. OK. I will download it soon! Many thanks Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 04:38:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA02566 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:38:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02561 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA23805; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:53:28 +0200 Message-ID: <19970910105328.10261@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:53:28 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) References: <199709090908.FAA15755@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709090908.FAA15755@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 07:39:39AM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 07:39:39AM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > see /sys/src/cmd/disk/kfs/libp/port/qlock.c and related > files for a user-level QLock and RWLockimplementation. you should Opps. I have just demo installation so I can't read sources :( I really want to see them, but I am poor student and $120 is too much for me :( > be able to implementat what you need with that. note too that > sleep(0) will relinquish the CPU. see /sys/src/cmd/exportfs > and /sys/src/cmd/telco for other examples of multi-process > servers and different approaches to synchronisation. > you'll also find a concurrency-safe version of > malloc.c in at least one of those directories. > > most new concurrent programs in Plan 9 are (best) > written in Alef, so not much effort has gone into providing I am sorry, but I don't plan to rewrite XaoS into alef, since I want to keep portability with other OSes too. > a complete programming package for the venerable C. > > one point that's easy to overlook is that fork(2) notes that rfork(RFPROC|RFMEM) > causes ALL subsequent forks to share data. consequently, you need to ensure that > einit(...) is called to initialise the graphics event code before you do > the first RFMEM rfork, otherwise things can get a little bit confused. Ok. Need I do that in case other tasks don't access graphics too? (Linux requires the opposite so it would require one extra ifdef, wich is always ugly... :( ) > > as to the second question, i'm afraid that Plan 9 graphics supports only > up to 8 bits (0 <= Bitmap.ldepth <= 3). it's not just 8½; it would require > a fair amount of effort to change. OK no problem :) So XaoS now supports all modes supported by 8 1/2 - 1boo and 8 bpp :) Yesterday I implemented dithering, so XaoS should emulate truecolor.. Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 04:47:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA02767 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:47:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02763 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA23865; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:03:03 +0200 Message-ID: <19970910110303.55203@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:03:03 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi yesterday I got first version of XaoS working quite well so if you are interested, you might download it from ftp.ta.jcu.cz/pub/linux/hubicka/experimental/xaos30zd.tgz It should in both 1bpp and 8bpp modes. Please let me know how do you like it and your ideas for improvement. I have again few questions: How can I write text in inversed (if possible) Ie black background, since I think it looks better in XaoS. I removed gif saving code (due to pantent problems) and use pnglib instead. I think it don't worth to port pnglib into plan9, since it is quite ugly (IMO). As I saw in doc, plan9 has its own image format (pic) so I should save it into it. But I din't found any library for that except tifflib, wich looks rather strange and non-plan9ish. Is there any way to handle image files easilly in plan9? Any library? (or any example of tifflib saving code?) Thread support is still missing because of lack of lock/sleep+wakeup mechanizm. Still awaiting your ideas :) Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 05:04:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA02977 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:04:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02973 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA23996; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:19:19 +0200 Message-ID: <19970910111919.35362@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:19:19 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version References: <19970910110303.55203@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <19970910110303.55203@horac.ta.jcu.cz>; from Jan Hubicka on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 11:03:03AM +0200 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Just small note, that my server (ftp.ta.jcu.cz) will be down for approx three hours, because of some problems in powerplant... Also another question: What is the best way to clear window. i didn't found any function for that, so I use border with wide set to xsize+ysize, maybe there should be better way. Honza >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 05:14:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA03168 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:14:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA03164 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:14:01 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709100914.FAA03164@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:46:39 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] porting XaoS3.0 to plan9 (problems) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>Is that safe? Plan9 once damaged fat partitions so I am bit more curefull >>now... that had to do with the handling or interpretation of the partition table especially on installation, and was fairly quickly changed. the ext2fs servers are distinct programs, and might have bugs of their own, of course, though no one has mentioned it. the one i did gave read-only access; someone else wrote a server that would allow full read/write access. i haven't had a linux partition for several years now, and haven't tested the latter myself. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 05:33:46 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA03435 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:33:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA03429 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:33:39 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:06:18 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>(IMO). As I saw in doc, plan9 has its own image format (pic) so I should >>save it into it. But I din't found any library for that except tifflib, >>wich looks rather strange and non-plan9ish. Is there any way to handle there's a separate libfb (), which is the one that supports the pic file format. man 2 wrbitmapfile describes the libg primitive for writing Bitmaps to files. Plan 9's version of that routine doesn't write a compressed format, unlike (say) Inferno's equivalent. the pic file writer in libfb can write compressed pic files, though, and you can then fiddle directly with images using the fb commands, so on balance pic might be the best one to use. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 06:10:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id GAA03740 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:10:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA03736 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:10:10 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709101010.GAA03736@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:42:51 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>Also another question: What is the best way to clear window. i didn't >>found any function for that, so I use border with wide set to xsize+ysize, >>maybe there should be better way. bitblt(&screen, screen.r.min, &screen, screen.r, Zero); >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 09:17:41 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA06372 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:17:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06368 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu3 [143.106.7.7]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11226 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:12:59 -0300 (EST) Received: from phoenix (phoenix [143.106.16.171]) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08105 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:12:58 -0300 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970910130626.008da164@dcc.unicamp.br> X-Sender: 973930@dcc.unicamp.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:06:26 -0300 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Franklin Robert Araujo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7a?= <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> Subject: [9fans] Questions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans My keyboard' arrows keys don't work. How I do for use the arrows keys? Does Plan 9 support the following video board: Trident PCI mode 9680 And support the following resolution with it: 1024x768x8 Thanks. Franklin. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 09:46:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA07053 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:46:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (msfriedl@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.2.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07049 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from msfriedl@localhost) by cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de id PAA12579 (8.7.6/7.5c-FAU); for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:46:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Markus Friedl Message-Id: <199709101346.PAA12579@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:46:22 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970910130626.008da164@dcc.unicamp.br> from "Franklin Robert Araujo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7a?=" at Sep 10, 97 10:06:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > My keyboard' arrows keys don't work. How I do for use the arrows keys? i think, the arrow keys work, but not as you might expect: keyboard(6) reads: The view character (0x80), used by 8.5(1) and sam(1), causes windows to scroll forward. [...] The scroll character is generated by the VIEW key on the Gnot, the Alt Graph key on the SLC, and any of the three arrow keys <-, v, and -> on the other terminals for anyhing else you're encouraged to use the mouse. :) -markus >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 11:40:45 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA10955 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:40:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pixar.com (pixar.pixar.com [138.72.10.20]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA10951 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marvin.pixar.com (marvin.pixar.com [138.72.30.83]) by pixar.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA27712 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by marvin.pixar.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0x8osB-00K88KC; Wed, 10 Sep 97 08:40 PDT From: "Tom Duff" Message-Id: <9709100840.ZM1680@marvin> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:40:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: Jan Hubicka "Re: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues)" (Sep 10, 10:53am) References: <199709090908.FAA15755@cse.psu.edu> <19970910105328.10261@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Reply-To: td@pixar.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Sep 10, 10:53am, Jan Hubicka wrote: > Opps. I have just demo installation so I can't read sources :( > I really want to see them, but I am poor student and $120 is too much > for me :( If you're a student, and you can find a few more interested students (say 10, total) at your institution, you could each pony up a small fraction of the cost and buy a distribution for your school. The license is a site license, so you can all use the system under the auspices of the school. Uhh, you probably have to have permission to act under the school's auspices, but surely you can find a teacher that thinks this is a good idea. Also, the cost is about $350, not $120, but 10% of that is still only $35. Of course you only get one paper copy of the documentation, but the CD-ROM has machine-readable versions of everything in the books. -- Tom Duff, KF6LWB >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 13:28:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA13859 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:28:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13855 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3025 invoked by uid 991); 10 Sep 1997 17:28:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19970910172810.3023.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:06:18 -0000." <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:28:10 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk writes: | the pic file writer in libfb can write compressed pic files, though, | and you can then fiddle directly with images using the fb commands, | so on balance pic might be the best one to use. On the other hand, ppm is the most portable scheme around, and ppmtopic isn't hard to write. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 13:35:11 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA14175 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:35:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14171 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3075 invoked by uid 991); 10 Sep 1997 17:35:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19970910173506.3073.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:46:22 +0200." <199709101346.PAA12579@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:35:06 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Markus Friedl writes: | > My keyboard' arrows keys don't work. How I do for use the arrows keys? | | i think, the arrow keys work, but not as you might expect: | keyboard(6) reads: | The view character (0x80), used by 8.5(1) and sam(1), causes | windows to scroll forward. [...] The scroll character is | generated by the VIEW key on the Gnot, the Alt Graph key on the | SLC, and any of the three arrow keys <-, v, and -> on the other | terminals | | for anyhing else you're encouraged to use the mouse. :) Either that or alter the keyboard driver. :-) In these internationalized days, shouldn't the arrows send unicode arrow chars? shift-arrow could send the double width ones. And control-arrow can spit out some motion oriented character, such as page-up, page-down, home, and end should do. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 13:38:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA14401 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:38:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14397 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:38:35 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709101738.NAA14397@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:38:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > In these internationalized days, shouldn't the arrows send unicode > arrow chars? Certainly not. The arrow keys are control characters; the arrow characters are printable glyphs. This is like suggesting CR print as a little down-and-to-the-left arrow. -rob >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 14:06:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA15160 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15147 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.proxima.alt.za (localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id UAA00669; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:09:14 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709101809.UAA00669@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Authentication-Warning: foible.proxima.alt.za: localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu cc: lucio@foible.proxima.alt.za Subject: [9fans] Arrow keys In-reply-to: Message from rob@plan9.bell-labs.com of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:38:31 -0400." <199709101738.NAA14397@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:09:13 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I presume the reason arrow keys don't move the cursor around (I _do_ wish they did, at least in the Unix versions of SAM) is because of the arbitrariness of line movement. I can't imagine the slightest reason for them not working horizontally at character level, and the mouse resolution can be such a bind... But once one accepts the mouse as the only means to move the cursor, I have wondered for a while whether it would not be useful to turn the mouse arrow off after a brief period of inactivity, only to bring it back when the mouse is moved. The rationale is as follows: a static mouse cursor only gets in the way of the text (or whatever) on the screen, turning it off is better than having to move it to an unobtrusive location. Whereas it may initially be a touch disconcerting not to know where the cursor is, the eye's sensitivity to movement would make it easy to spot the cursor once it reappears (give or take some LCD displays where tracking down the cursor is practically impossible all the time :-( Plan 9 (or Inferno, for that matter) may be fine place for some experimentation. If Bell Labs (or anyone else who can afford to) want to patent the idea, I'll only demand acknowledgement, even though real money would be gratefully accepted :-) -- Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 14:09:06 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA15434 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15430 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3196 invoked by uid 991); 10 Sep 1997 18:09:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19970910180901.3194.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:38:31 EDT." <199709101738.NAA14397@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:01 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans rob@plan9.bell-labs.com writes: | Certainly not. The arrow keys are control characters; the arrow | characters are printable glyphs. In libXg, they send 0x80, 0x81, 0x82, 0x83. What does Brazil do? I don't think that returning the same non-character (0x80) for all the motion keys has worked out too well. | This is like suggesting CR print | as a little down-and-to-the-left arrow. A little. But just because a key is identified by a funny unicode glyph doesn't mean that the terminal emulator has to print that glyph whenever the key is struck; it just means that programs that care have a way to get an unambiguous symbol from the system. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 14:09:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA15498 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15470 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:15 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709101809.OAA15470@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Arrow keys Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Turning the mouse off during quiet times is an old idea. One design is to turn it off when a key is struck, and turn it on again when the mouse is touched. -rob >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 14:17:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA15915 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:17:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15911 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709101817.OAA15911@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:17:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The up arrow is disinguished in Brazil from the others, but it's not systematic across machines; the exact behavior of the keyboard is machine-dependent, although it shouldn't be. > But just because a key is identified by a funny unicode > glyph doesn't mean that the terminal emulator has to print that glyph > whenever the key is struck; it just means that programs that care have > a way to get an unambiguous symbol from the system. But that's just it: how can a program tell an arrow key from a legitimate arrow character when they driver doesn't disambiguate? It's a bad idea to send Unicode values for control characters. It's a terrible idea. -rob >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 14:24:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA16224 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16213 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.proxima.alt.za (localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id UAA00724 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:28:15 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709101828.UAA00724@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Authentication-Warning: foible.proxima.alt.za: localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Arrow keys In-reply-to: Message from rob@plan9.bell-labs.com of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:09:11 -0400." <199709101809.OAA15470@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:28:15 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Turning the mouse off during quiet times is an old idea. > One design is to turn it off when a key is struck, and turn > it on again when the mouse is touched. > At the risk of sounding even sillier than usual, why is this not done anywhere? The idea of waiting for a keypress sounds good, although a period of inactivity may be better for idiot utilities such as the Win'95 desktop where one spends long periods just staring at it and hoping that something intelligent will eventually occur :-) -- Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 15:39:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA17928 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:39:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17924 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:39:00 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709101939.PAA17924@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:11:59 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans when describing the process synchronisation primitives, i forgot to mention rendezvous(2), which is the system call to synchronise two processes. given rendezvous, , and rfork, you should be able to write the little you need fairly easily. processes can rendezvous to collect points without busy waiting on the spin lock. note that you should rfork(RFNAMEG) in main(), to ensure that you've got a separate space for the rendezvous values. (why RFNAMEG? because that rendezvous space is tied to the name space in Plan 9; in Brazil it becomes a separate resource controlled by a distinct flag to rfork.) >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 16:23:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA19015 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:23:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19010 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:23:15 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709102023.QAA19010@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:56:01 BST Subject: [9fans] arrow keys Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans most keyboards here have the so-called UK layout, not the US one, and some people found that confusing. (i prefer the US layout and just touch-type, disregarding what the key tops show.) i therefore added a limited kbmap device (/sys/src/9/port/devkbmap.c) and added an interface to it to /sys/src/9/pc/kbd.c with other changes to allow keys to be mapped to Runes, not just one byte characters. that way some other european language keyboards could be handled by loading the appropriate map into /dev/kbmap. the mapping values are written to /dev/kbmap as text, but the actual values are keyboard dependent (eg, PC/AT vs Sun's). if you gloss over some possible laziness in the implementation, so far so good. the arrow keys and function keys that take up an irritating amount of space on the overblown PC keyboard are mapped by default to non-graphic parts of the Unicode space. (the particular range i chose might not be the best choice, but it's certainly much better than attempting cute mappings to up and down arrow mappings, for the reasons rob has already given.) i implemented the keyboard mapping to allow non-American keyboard mappings to be supported, and allocating distinct values for the various function keys was only a side-effect. i regard the arrow keys as there only because DOS needed them, so i've generally ignored them. it's obvious that people used to them have programmed their body to head for the keys when they make a mistake (it's easy to spot if you watch them), in much the way i instinctively reach for the mouse by long practice. even so, i'd be reluctant to introduce much support for them. i once experimented a little, just to be nice to a few people to whom i grudgingly decided to be nice, but i think it was a mistake. there were always more complications (once you came down to it) than they claimed there would be. the mice and arrow keys argue too much, and the arrows were originally intended for use on a fixed-pitch rectangular character grid. in many applications there are several things that could be scrolled by touching the arrow keys (eg, lists of news articles or mail messages, as well as the message bodies). on some non-Plan9 systems i've used, the interpretation of the motion keys moves with the focus, which commonly moves with the mouse (with or without a click)! even worse are up & down movements in things like Word that work with proportional text. you need the computer's knowledge of the details of the fount to know where the cursor will end (if you experiment you see it's essentially a function of the last mouse click). interaction of arrow keys with the current selection nearly always leads to the introduction of yet more rules (``oh, you shift left arrow to extend the selection to the right and control-left-arrow to extend the selection to the left, and alt left arrow to trim it, and ...''). a pox on the things. give me back my desk space. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 16:52:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA19981 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:52:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.cs.su.oz.au (lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au [129.78.96.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19977 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:52:44 -0400 (EDT) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys From: David Hogan Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:41:36 +1000 In-Reply-To: <199709102023.QAA19010@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: <199709110641.4532.out.balin@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > a pox on the things. give me back my desk space. I saw a nice keyboard in Fry's which didn't have numb-pad or arrow keys. It did have a row of function keys though, but even so, it was pretty compact compared to the Sun monstrosity in front of me right now. And it was black... I believe that NCD used to sell a keyboard known as the ``programmer's keyboard'' (not sure if that was it's actual name or just what John liked to call it). It was also very compact, although it wasn't black. I think it might even be PC compatible (at least electrically, if not keycode compatible). Actually, one or both of these may have had arrow keys, but if they did, they weren't taking up as much space as they do on the standard 104 key keyboards. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 17:12:15 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA20847 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:12:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20838 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:12:03 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709102112.RAA20838@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:10:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans from the old notes about the hardware we use: .SH Keyboard .LP You just can't get a decent keyboard these days. We use the Lexmark Quiet-Touch. It has 84 keys, an optional numeric keypad (which we've never bought) and either PS/2 (6-pin) or AT (5-pin) connector. The feel is a bit dull, but it measures 13"x6" which makes up for a lot. it has arrow keys. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 17:27:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA21640 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:27:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ducky.net (gate.ducky.net [198.145.101.253]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA21636 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ducky.net (localhost.ducky.net [127.0.0.1]) by ducky.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29161 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709102126.OAA29161@ducky.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:10:28 EDT." <199709102112.RAA20838@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:26:55 -0700 From: Mike Haertel Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The Behavioral Technologies BTC-5100 keyboard also has a small footprint. I think it's about 12"x6". I've got one, although I have since switched to a Kinesis ergnomic keyboard, which is about 16" wide, but at least still not burdened with one of those !#%@ keypads. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 18:14:19 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id SAA22511 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:14:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA22506 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:14:15 -0400 (EDT) From: geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709102214.SAA22506@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:13:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans we called lexmark in april and they had sold the keyboard business to unicomp in kentucky, lex.infi.net!unicomp. unicomp then had enough parts left to make 50 keyboards. we ordered 20, so there could be parts for 30 left. the part number is 92G7458 if you want to try. >From owner-9fans Wed Sep 10 23:30:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id XAA26243 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:30:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from nikwind.utcs.toronto.edu (nikwind.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.59]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA26239 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by nikwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <356597>; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:29:47 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys In-reply-to: dhog's message of Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:41:36 -0400. <199709110641.4532.out.balin@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:29:39 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <97Sep10.232947edt.356597@nikwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans | I believe that NCD used to sell a keyboard known as the | ``programmer's keyboard'' (not sure if that was it's actual | name or just what John liked to call it). This is probably the NCD Unix keyboard, which as far as I know they will still sell you. This is a PS/2 PClone keyboard, but apparently uses a scancode set that is both the most logical and the most obscure, and is thus not necessarily widely supported on PClones (it is useable on SGI workstations and possibly other vendors who use PS/2 keyboards). I don't know enough about the PClone keyboard interface to say whether it would be possibly to program Plan 9 to talk to it if the motherboard wasn't cooperating. It's pretty compact, has all the keys in the sane places (including ESC, control, and capslock), but still has a numeric keypad with the usual set of stuff and squeezes the arrow keys in at the lower right of the regular keys. I think it has a nice feel (it's my favorite keyboard) but other people may disagree. People with X and the xkeycaps program can use that to see a picture of its layout; the actual type is the NCD N-97. - cks >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 03:53:38 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA28106 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:53:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from cegelecproj.co.uk (ganymede.cegelecproj.co.uk [159.245.72.6]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA28102 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:53:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (cerberus.cegelecproj.co.uk) by cegelecproj.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11345; Thu, 11 Sep 97 08:52:56 BST Received: by vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA14544; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:52:52 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:52:52 +0100 From: Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk Message-Id: <199709110752.IAA14544@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> X-Planation: X-Faces images can be viewed with the XFaces program To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Re: keyboards X-Face: Iqsa(US9p?)Y^W+6Ff[Z]rM"uFE) lFDjag1e]\/#2 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I'm vaguely happy with my Sun type4 keyboard, big as it is, but I suspect that is just me subconciously being grateful for not getting a type5 with the PC layout.... Two interesting layouts in other arenas: my Psion 5 has a fairly nice keyboard in terms of travel and feel, but the placement of punctuation, etc. is bizarre at best, to fit all the symbols onto a smaller number of keys. It's a nice piece of hardware, though. I wonder how well it'll run Inferno. :-) The most extreme layout I've seen was a point-of-sale jobbie at Argos (UK catalogue store). Since they handle wedding lists now, they type in the name of the buyer of presents, and to do this, they've scattered letters across the custom-layout of usual till functions, possibly completely at random. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 03:54:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA28199 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:54:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28195 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA29830; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:09:52 +0200 Message-ID: <19970911100951.15850@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:09:51 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version References: <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:06:18AM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:06:18AM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>(IMO). As I saw in doc, plan9 has its own image format (pic) so I should > >>save it into it. But I din't found any library for that except tifflib, > >>wich looks rather strange and non-plan9ish. Is there any way to handle > > there's a separate libfb (), which is the one that supports the > pic file format. man 2 wrbitmapfile describes the libg primitive > for writing Bitmaps to files. Plan 9's version of that routine doesn't Ok, this should be quite easy to write routine for saving 256color/truecolor images I expect :) About ppm stuff. Yes, ppm should be the easiest, but at *NIX machines, I should use libpng, wich saves into well compressed format, that saves lots of megabytes :) DOS,OS2 uses same scheme and usage of ppm at Mac/BeOS should be quite strange too, I expect. > write a compressed format, unlike (say) Inferno's equivalent. This reminds me that I should try to install inferno :) Will it fit into my 20MB plan9 partition? Only think that talks against usage of pic files is that it will require some extra platform depended code wich will bloat XaoS archive size. And it is IMO too large now.... I hope it will not be longer than say 1KB... > the pic file writer in libfb can write compressed pic files, though, > and you can then fiddle directly with images using the fb commands, Is those fb commands included in demo instalation? I wonder if I will be able to browse resulting images in any way... maybe mortha? Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 03:57:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA28369 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:57:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28365 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 03:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA29848; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:12:32 +0200 Message-ID: <19970911101232.33060@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:12:32 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version References: <199709101939.PAA17924@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709101939.PAA17924@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 06:11:59PM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 06:11:59PM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > when describing the process synchronisation primitives, > i forgot to mention rendezvous(2), which is the system Yes, I already readed rendenzvous description. It looks like really interesting call. I was thinking about implementation of lock/wakeup mechanizm using it and it seems to be really interesting puzzle. I will think about that. If there is already code for that, I would welcome it too :) > call to synchronise two processes. given rendezvous, > , and rfork, you should be able to write the little > you need fairly easily. processes can rendezvous to > collect points without busy waiting on the spin lock. > note that you should > rfork(RFNAMEG) > in main(), to ensure that you've got a separate space > for the rendezvous values. (why RFNAMEG? because that rendezvous > space is tied to the name space in Plan 9; in Brazil it > becomes a separate resource controlled by a distinct flag to rfork.) OK. BTW is there any doc about brazil at the net? I saw just little description, wich says that it will be, and it will be better, but nothing more. Looking forward for it. Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 04:17:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA28638 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:17:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA28634 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 04:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA29998; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:32:55 +0200 Message-ID: <19970911103255.39406@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:32:55 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: td@pixar.com, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) References: <199709090908.FAA15755@cse.psu.edu> <19970910105328.10261@horac.ta.jcu.cz> <9709100840.ZM1680@marvin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <9709100840.ZM1680@marvin>; from Tom Duff on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:40:07AM -0700 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:40:07AM -0700, Tom Duff wrote: > On Sep 10, 10:53am, Jan Hubicka wrote: > > Opps. I have just demo installation so I can't read sources :( > > I really want to see them, but I am poor student and $120 is too much > > for me :( > > If you're a student, and you can find a few more interested students > (say 10, total) at your institution, you could each pony up a small fraction I am trying to do that. I fact I asked my school to buy it and they agree so, if I will find enought students interested in it. Problem is that school buyed spring deveral years ago, and no one uses it so they think that with plan9 it should be similiar. So I am currently looking for students (and project) for plan9. > of the cost and buy a distribution for your school. The license is a site > license, so you can all use the system under the auspices of the school. > > Uhh, you probably have to have permission to act under the school's > auspices, but surely you can find a teacher that thinks this is a good idea. I tried so, but the teacher for unix send me to some other thaches for operating system and when I came there, he was playing syndicate in win95, so thats probably purpose why he was so angry to me :( They also say that fact that plan9 is dead is bad, and it should be better to wait for brazil. > > Also, the cost is about $350, not $120, but 10% of that is still only $35. Well $35 is all money I earn for a month... (when I skip money payed for house ($70)) > Of course you only get one paper copy of the documentation, but the CD-ROM > has machine-readable versions of everything in the books. OK.. I personally think that it is bad, that plan9 is not free. I don't think Bell-labs should get any significant amount of money for selling plan9, so it should be better to make it free, since it has so may interesting ideas and I think that everyone who is interested in Operating Systems should definitly see it. During deverlopment period of XaoS3.0 I again saw how much easier is thinks under plan9/8 1/2 in comparation to UNIX/X11 (well mainly X11...) I enjoyed fact, that plan9 has such small standard library but when I need some function (like coprocessor control/image saving) it is usually there. Except thread stuff, but I agree that aleph is right think to do. Only problem is that alepth is plan9/SGI only, as far as I know. Honza > > -- > Tom Duff, KF6LWB -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:08:55 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA28972 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:08:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.ch.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA28967 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.ch.genedata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27275 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:08:11 +0200 Message-ID: <3417B4FC.965E1316@genedata.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:08:12 +0200 From: elliott Organization: GeneData AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions References: <199709101738.NAA14397@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans rob@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > > In these internationalized days, shouldn't the arrows send unicode > > arrow chars? > > Certainly not. The arrow keys are control characters; the arrow > characters are printable glyphs. This is like suggesting CR print > as a little down-and-to-the-left arrow. That's nonsense. The keys are what we choose to interpret them as. The "Return" key is a control key because that's the convention. The key with "W" painted on it is not because that's the convention. As I see it, if the arrow keys aren't going to be used as distinct control keys then it makes perfect sense to have them output Unicode arrow characters. It might not be terribly useful, but we could use <- for assignment and -> to separate guards from commands, for example. Which is a lot more sensible than sending 16_80. -- Elliott Hughes - GeneData AG, Postfach 254, CH-4016 Basel, Switzerland mailto:elliott.hughes@genedata.com http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:15:00 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA29145 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:14:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.ch.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29140 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.ch.genedata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27300 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:14:17 +0200 Message-ID: <3417B669.C70EE04D@genedata.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:14:17 +0200 From: elliott Organization: GeneData AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) References: <199709101828.UAA00724@foible.proxima.alt.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Lucio de Re wrote: > > > Turning the mouse off during quiet times is an old idea. > > One design is to turn it off when a key is struck, and turn > > it on again when the mouse is touched. > > > At the risk of sounding even sillier than usual, why is this not done > anywhere? The idea of waiting for a keypress sounds good, although a > period of inactivity may be better for idiot utilities such as the > Win'95 desktop where one spends long periods just staring at it and > hoping that something intelligent will eventually occur :-) It's done in lots of places. For example, I have a module (a dynamically-loaded kernel module in modern parlance, I suppose) for RISC OS that does this system-wide. Both hide-on-keypress and hide-after-delay, if you choose. Most people go for hide-on-keypress only, I find. -- Elliott Hughes - GeneData AG, Postfach 254, CH-4016 Basel, Switzerland mailto:elliott.hughes@genedata.com http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:30:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA29364 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:30:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from cegelecproj.co.uk (ganymede.cegelecproj.co.uk [159.245.72.6]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29360 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (cerberus.cegelecproj.co.uk) by cegelecproj.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11893; Thu, 11 Sep 97 10:29:58 BST Received: by vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA14999; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:29:54 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:29:54 +0100 From: Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk Message-Id: <199709110929.KAA14999@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> X-Planation: X-Faces images can be viewed with the XFaces program To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions X-Face: Iqsa(US9p?)Y^W+6Ff[Z]rM"uFE) lFDjag1e]\/#2 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > That's nonsense. The keys are what we choose to interpret them as. The > "Return" key is a control key because that's the convention. The key > with "W" painted on it is not because that's the convention. There are two aspects to that. Firstly, much of Plan 9 hangs together because agreed conventions are obeyed (namespace construction, for example). Secondly, the mouse is used to move the pointer, which is just a convention, but it's one that's assumed at a pretty low level of many systems. Principle of Least Surprise. (Incidentally, this is also a reasonable argument for Del being a delete key; I much prefer the way libXg just accepts either backspace or delete as the delete key.) >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:33:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA29489 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:33:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from cegelecproj.co.uk (ganymede.cegelecproj.co.uk [159.245.72.6]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA29484 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (cerberus.cegelecproj.co.uk) by cegelecproj.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11900; Thu, 11 Sep 97 10:32:33 BST Received: by vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA15010; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:32:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:32:22 +0100 From: Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk Message-Id: <199709110932.KAA15010@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> X-Planation: X-Faces images can be viewed with the XFaces program To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) X-Face: Iqsa(US9p?)Y^W+6Ff[Z]rM"uFE) lFDjag1e]\/#2 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Vanishing pointers drive me up the wall. I like to know where the pointer is at all times, but that's just me. My particular favourite: MS Word making the pointer disappear as you move it over the grey area that surrounds the WYSIAWYG page...makes me want to scream. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:42:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA29681 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:42:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.ch.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29677 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.ch.genedata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28014 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:41:32 +0200 Message-ID: <3417BCCD.B2D0FC2B@genedata.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:41:33 +0200 From: elliott Organization: GeneData AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) References: <199709110932.KAA15010@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk wrote: > Vanishing pointers drive me up the wall. I like to know where the > pointer is at all times, but that's just me. My particular > favourite: MS Word making the pointer disappear as you move it over > the grey area that surrounds the WYSIAWYG page...makes me want to > scream. they tried to make me use MS Word the other day, and exactly that feature made me refuse and delete it. does anyone know why they did that? i can see the point of hiding the pointer while you're typing: sometimes it's a pain to be typing under the pointer and not really being able to see what you've typed (that's always my excuse for typos ;-) but why on Earth would anyone want to hide the pointer in two-thirds of their screen area? ridiculous! -- Elliott Hughes - GeneData AG, Postfach 254, CH-4016 Basel, Switzerland mailto:elliott.hughes@genedata.com http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 05:47:58 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA29846 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29842 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.proxima.alt.za (localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA03023; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:51:21 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709110951.LAA03023@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Authentication-Warning: foible.proxima.alt.za: localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu cc: lucio@foible.proxima.alt.za Subject: Re: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) In-reply-to: Message from Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk of "Thu, 11 Sep 1997 10:32:22 +0100." <199709110932.KAA15010@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:51:21 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Vanishing pointers drive me up the wall. I like to know where the > pointer is at all times, but that's just me. My particular > favourite: MS Word making the pointer disappear as you move it over > the grey area that surrounds the WYSIAWYG page...makes me want to > scream. There's a difference, I hope :-) I'd like to see the pointer disappear (effectively) when I take my hand off the mouse. I'm sure that wouldn't give you much of a panic once you've had it for a few days. -- Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 06:00:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id GAA00045 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:00:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA00041 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from symnt3.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03006; Thu, 11 Sep 97 11:01:13 BST Received: by symnt3.symbionics.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCBEA1.F0E14B00@symnt3.symbionics.co.uk>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:00:39 +0100 Message-Id: From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: RE: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:00:38 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >;-) but why on Earth would anyone want to hide the pointer in two-thirds >of their screen area? ridiculous! > >It's downlevelling, so that people using DTSN colour notebooks in daylight >don't feel left out. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 07:50:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id HAA00668 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:50:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.ch.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00664 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.ch.genedata.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA30887 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:49:32 +0200 Message-ID: <3417DACC.AFA59217@genedata.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:49:32 +0200 From: elliott Organization: GeneData AG X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP19) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions References: <199709110929.KAA14999@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk wrote: > There are two aspects to that. Firstly, much of Plan 9 hangs together > because agreed conventions are obeyed (namespace construction, for > example). Secondly, the mouse is used to move the pointer, which is > just a convention, but it's one that's assumed at a pretty low level > of many systems. Principle of Least Surprise. you're bound to have surprises as long as you make mistakes. it seems to me that the Plan 9ers consider there to be a difference between "character keys" and "control keys", but they fail to make this distinction in the software. just because Unicode has all those hang-over bits of ASCII that fit many of their needs (Tab, Esc, Backspace, Del, Return) they thought they could get away with their dualism. the place where they fall over is the right-hand side of the keyboard. they end up _feeling_ that the arrow keys are control, but having left themselves no way to say this. but this _feeling_ makes them incapable of using the keys to produce the Unicode arrow characters (say). but hey, even if they _did_ do that, where would they be with Insert or Home or End? [I remember seeing an IBM experiment where they projected a keyboard onto the desk. Great for switching between Latin and Greek character sets, but I can see a lot of uses for a comfortable dynamic keyboard. If only one existed.] > (Incidentally, this is also a reasonable argument for Del being a > delete key; I much prefer the way libXg just accepts either backspace > or delete as the delete key.) The "delete key"? Confusion reigns ;-) -- Elliott Hughes - GeneData AG, Postfach 254, CH-4016 Basel, Switzerland mailto:elliott.hughes@genedata.com http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 13:53:47 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA08227 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:53:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from tor.securecomputing.com (tor.securecomputing.com [199.71.190.98]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08223 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by janus.tor.securecomputing.com id <11649>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:53:11 -0400 Message-Id: <97Sep11.135311edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:53:17 -0400 From: "ozan s. yigit" Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Clint Olsen: > Perhaps if emacs had foot pedals it wouldn't be so painful to use. on a related note, see "double bucky" and "space-cadet keyboard" entries in the "Hacker's Dictionary" for various details on some MIT keyboards. oz >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 15:22:41 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA11036 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:22:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11029 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709111922.PAA11029@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:21:43 -0400 Subject: [9fans] minor changes to b.com Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans 11-Sep-97 boot/pc/874002976.rc ============================== All previous changes in boot/pc plus: dat.h include the Brazil BOOT* defines in a comment. fns.h correct arguments for stricter compiler. bootp.c print info about the responding server. cga.c maintain the cursor; get the screen size right; don't clear the screen. conf.c include in a comment the compatibilty code from moving the BOOT* addresses for Brazil. console.c always print on the cga. ether.c fill in the source MAC address. ether509.c handle the statistics interrupt. hard.c getfields -> getcfields. l.s different startup message; no screen blank. main.c parse command line options; getfields -> getcfields. plan9boot.c fix argument to plan9boot(). scsi.c scsi14f.c scsi1542.c honour the port address if a plan9.ini can be found; accept a different port if given on the command line, e.g. b.com -scsi0=0x334 e!0 These are all minor changes. A b.com image is available in the same directory. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 16:37:21 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA13681 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:37:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.cs.su.oz.au (lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au [129.78.96.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13662 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:37:12 -0400 (EDT) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions From: David Hogan Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:15:07 +1000 In-Reply-To: <3417B4FC.965E1316@genedata.com> Message-ID: <199709120615.7753.out.baliv@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com wrote: > rob@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: > > > In these internationalized days, shouldn't the arrows send unicode > > > arrow chars? > > Certainly not. The arrow keys are control characters; the arrow > > characters are printable glyphs. This is like suggesting CR print > > as a little down-and-to-the-left arrow. > That's nonsense. The keys are what we choose to interpret them as. The > "Return" key is a control key because that's the convention. The key > with "W" painted on it is not because that's the convention. Yes, but the suggestion which spawned this debate was that programs such as 8 1/2 which interpret the down arrow as the "view" key should interpret the arrow glyphs as control characters (after matching modifications to the console driver). As Rob points out, this is a bad idea since it makes it impossible for a user to insert literal arrow glyphs. Imagine that the return key generated the "r" character, and that 8 1/2 "knew" that that meant "return". Then you'd look pretty silly trying to run a command with "r" in it. Unicode defines certain characters which can be used as "control" characters. Attempting to use others this way would be a mistake. > As I see it, if the arrow keys aren't going to be used as distinct > control keys then it makes perfect sense to have them output Unicode > arrow characters. It might not be terribly useful, but we could use <- > for assignment and -> to separate guards from commands, for example. > Which is a lot more sensible than sending 16_80. I actually like the way that all three of the bottom row of arrow keys act as the view key; one doesn't need to be so precise. Given that "view" is a frequently used operation, this makes a lot of sense (notice how shift, space, return, backspace, etc are wider on most keyboards; that's because they are used more often). Of course, you're free to redefine the keys in your own copy of the source! Me, I'm looking for something to map those blasted Win 95 keys to. Does Unicode have a hangman's noose character? Or a skull and crossbones? I guess there's always the frowning face character... >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 11 17:32:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA15738 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:32:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15732 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14370 invoked by uid 991); 11 Sep 1997 21:32:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19970911213213.14368.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:15:07 +1000." <199709120615.7753.out.baliv@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:32:13 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans David Hogan writes: | Yes, but the suggestion which spawned this debate was that programs | such as 8 1/2 which interpret the down arrow as the "view" key should | interpret the arrow glyphs as control characters (after matching | modifications to the console driver). As Rob points out, this is a | bad idea since it makes it impossible for a user to insert literal | arrow glyphs. That's not entirely true, since you could always snarf one of those reserved characters from a ½char window. | Unicode defines certain characters which can be used as "control" | characters. Attempting to use others this way would be a mistake. But given that the architecture of the console device is to just return characters, not events, you have to abuse some characters or other. The "view" key is just the narrow end of the wedge. Isn't it the case that there are OS reserved sections of the unicode space that could be used for this sort of thing? (Linux puts Klingon script there... do we want to buck the trend?) | I actually like the way that all three of the bottom row of arrow | keys act as the view key; one doesn't need to be so precise. Hm. I have a hard time hitting the wrong arrow. Especially on a keyboard with a t-bar configuration. | Of course, you're free to redefine the keys in your own copy | of the source! It's much more fun to have some sort of consensus, rather than a bunch of disparate hacks. P.S. skull and crossbones is 2620. >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 03:52:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id DAA24349 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:52:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA24345 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA03716; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:07:22 +0200 Message-ID: <19970912100721.03853@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:07:21 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] XaoS - first useable version References: <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709100933.FAA03429@cse.psu.edu>; from forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:06:18AM +0000 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 08:06:18AM +0000, forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>(IMO). As I saw in doc, plan9 has its own image format (pic) so I should > >>save it into it. But I din't found any library for that except tifflib, > >>wich looks rather strange and non-plan9ish. Is there any way to handle > > there's a separate libfb (), which is the one that supports the > pic file format. man 2 wrbitmapfile describes the libg primitive Well, I was looking for wrbitmapfile man page, and is seems to be missing in my archive. Please can you send me this pages? (plan9.bell-labs.com don't respond for ftp tpday...) Honza > for writing Bitmaps to files. Plan 9's version of that routine doesn't > write a compressed format, unlike (say) Inferno's equivalent. > the pic file writer in libfb can write compressed pic files, though, > and you can then fiddle directly with images using the fb commands, > so on balance pic might be the best one to use. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 11:19:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA29983 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:19:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk (root@glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk [144.32.136.21]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA29975 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk ([144.32.136.89]) by glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk with smtp id m0x9XV2-0004g1C (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.10 #30.21); Fri, 12 Sep 97 16:19:12 +0100 (MET DST) Received: by talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk (NX5.67g/NX3.0S) id AA01543; Fri, 12 Sep 97 16:19:19 +0100 Message-Id: <9709121519.AA01543@talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148) From: Roger Peppe Date: Fri, 12 Sep 97 16:19:17 +0100 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] arrow keys Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk References: <97Sep10.232947edt.356597@nikwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans i was interested to discover that the default bindings in the Inferno text widget do support cursor movement by key presses... but the cursor keys don't generate those control characters. maybe there's a message in there somewhere. rog. >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 14:51:50 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA05320 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (qmailr@pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05305 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 759 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 18:51:36 -0000 Received: from stealth.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.88.59) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 18:51:36 -0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@bath.ac.uk (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:18:20 GMT From: Bill Gunshannon Message-ID: <5v79lr$di2$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> Organization: Computing Sciences Dept., University of Scranton References: <199709101809.OAA15470@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] Arrow keys Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans In article <199709101828.UAA00724@foible.proxima.alt.za>, lucio@proxima.alt.ZA (Lucio de Re) writes: |> > Turning the mouse off during quiet times is an old idea. |> > One design is to turn it off when a key is struck, and turn |> > it on again when the mouse is touched. |> > |> At the risk of sounding even sillier than usual, why is this not done |> anywhere? It is. Linux outside of the X interface does this precisely. I guess they did get at least one thing right. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.uofs.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 14:51:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA05334 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (qmailr@pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05311 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 767 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 18:51:43 -0000 Received: from stealth.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.88.59) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 18:51:43 -0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@bath.ac.uk (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:31:39 GMT From: Bengt Kleberg Message-ID: Organization: DAMEK, KTH References: <199709110932.KAA15010@vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk> Subject: Re: Hiding the pointer (was Re: [9fans] Arrow keys) Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans In article <3417BCCD.B2D0FC2B@genedata.com>, 9fans@cse.psu.edu wrote: > Steve_Kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk wrote: > > Vanishing pointers drive me up the wall. I like to know where the > > pointer is at all times, but that's just me. My particular > > favourite: MS Word making the pointer disappear as you move it over ...deleted > they tried to make me use MS Word the other day, and exactly that > feature made me refuse and delete it. does anyone know why they did ...deleted I refused using MS Word since it froze my window system if I moved the mouse to often across the edges (to get the pointer away from the middle). Also, if I scrolled the text and had a window that didn't cover the whole screen the text turned into garbage. (not the content, it may already have been in that state, but the actual characters became random noise). This was in 1994. Can't remember the version of MS Word. -- Best Wishes, Bengt Email: bengtk@damek.kth.se >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 14:52:08 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA05368 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:52:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (qmailr@pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05343 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 771 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 18:51:45 -0000 Received: from stealth.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.88.59) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 18:51:45 -0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@bath.ac.uk (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:36:31 GMT From: The Druid Message-ID: Organization: University of York, UK Subject: [9fans] Porting Alef ? Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Following on from everyone agreeing that alef is the right way to write applications in Plan9 and issues of porting your applications to other enviroment, how difficult would it be to port the IRIX version of the alef runtime and compiler to other posix'ish platforms for example. Does the IRIX version use lots of specific SGI features or given a resonable ammount of time would it be possible to port it ? Robin -- Robin J. Bradley (rjb108@cs.york.ac.uk) ____________________________________________________________________________ If we define things by there opposites, then reality is defined by our dreams >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 14:52:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA05441 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pat.bath.ac.uk (pat.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05392 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 764 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1997 18:51:40 -0000 Received: from stealth.bath.ac.uk (HELO bath.ac.uk) (mmdf@138.38.88.59) by pat.bath.ac.uk with SMTP; 12 Sep 1997 18:51:40 -0000 Received: from GATEWAY by bath.ac.uk with netnews for 9fans@bath.ac.uk (9fans@cse.psu.edu) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:38:07 GMT From: Bengt Kleberg Message-ID: Organization: DAMEK, KTH References: <199709101939.PAA17924@cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Re: Brazil [was: XaoS - first useable version] Source-Info: From (or Sender) name not authenticated. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans In article <199709101939.PAA17924@cse.psu.edu>, 9fans@cse.psu.edu wrote: > rendezvous > space is tied to the name space in Plan 9; in Brazil it > becomes a separate resource controlled by a distinct flag to rfork.) Is it possible to read more about what Brazil does (and doesn't) somewhere? -- Best Wishes, Bengt Email: bengtk@damek.kth.se >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 15:58:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA08075 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:58:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from fenelon.zetnet.co.uk (pete@man-006.dialup.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.41.7]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08067 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pete@localhost) by fenelon.zetnet.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id UAA00581 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:59:52 +0100 From: Pete Fenelon Message-Id: <199709121959.UAA00581@fenelon.zetnet.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] Questions To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:59:52 +0100 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199709120615.7753.out.baliv@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> from "David Hogan" at Sep 12, 97 06:15:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Of course, you're free to redefine the keys in your own copy > of the source! Me, I'm looking for something to map those blasted > Win 95 keys to. Does Unicode have a hangman's noose character? > Or a skull and crossbones? I guess there's always the frowning > face character... Most of the keyboards at my current workplace have had their Win95 keys removed, and, for some bizarre reason, sellotaped to anglepoise lamps. A fate worse than... what? :) pete >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 17:01:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA10396 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA10390 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:04 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709122101.RAA10390@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:17:24 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Brazil [was: XaoS - first useable version] Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>Is it possible to read more about what Brazil does (and doesn't) somewhere? if you look back through the list (somewhere) there are a few references to brazil, notably to its revised graphics model and internal i/o subsystems. given that a few years have elapsed, that there are changes and improvements to the system (compared to Plan9) is unsurprising, but the overall approach and content is similar enough that you shouldn't feel terribly hard done by, not having it. there is plenty to be learnt from Plan9, and much that can still be done with it. the biggest practical nuisance is that the PC (and its devices) has changed somewhat since the Plan9 release, making it that much harder to bootstrap into existence. >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 12 17:01:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA10436 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA10423 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 17:01:22 -0400 (EDT) From: bobf@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709122101.RAA10423@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:43:27 -0400 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Following on from everyone agreeing that alef is the right way to write > applications in Plan9 and issues of porting your applications to other > enviroment, how difficult would it be to port the IRIX version of the alef > runtime and compiler to other posix'ish platforms for example. Does the IRIX > version use lots of specific SGI features or given a resonable ammount of time > would it be possible to port it ? first of all, the Irix version of alef isn't a port; it is cross-built from plan 9. that is, i use the plan 9 compilers and loaders to produce an Irix executable. that said, "porting" the compiler and loader is the easy part. since the compiler and loader generate plan 9-style symbol tables, the debugger on the target system probably won't understand the resulting executable. you'll also have to bring along acid and some other utilities, like ar. to get acid, you need to emulate the portion of libmach for the target architecture and figure out how to map the plan 9 process control model to that of the target system. i had access to the Irix source when i didit, so although i couldn't modify the operating system, i was able to find enough rocks to hide process state under. even then, the Irix version of acid lacks some of the functionality of the plan 9 version. of course, if you don't need a debugger for your alef programs, it should be relatively easy to build the alef compiler and run-time library; mainly you need to understand the target system's system call conventions and multi-threading package. the latter will have to be ported to plan 9. if you want to truly port the alef compiler, then i can't be of much help because we haven't done it yet. >From owner-9fans Sun Sep 14 10:50:47 1997 Received: (from Unknown UID 1132@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA26632 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:44:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: Unknown UID 1132 set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26627 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02159 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:39:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:39:19 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709141439.JAA02159@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Re: Using ALEF Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: bobf@plan9.bell-labs.com >> Following on from everyone agreeing that alef is the right way to write >> applications in Plan9 Not *everyone* agrees. I have converted a few programs from alef back to C and one of these days I may convert acme! If you like alef, I suggest you use Inferno. Limbo is like alef but is complete and provides many interesting extensions. >From owner-9fans Sun Sep 14 11:20:45 1997 Received: (from Unknown UID 1132@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA27047 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:11:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: Unknown UID 1132 set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27043 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:11:15 -0400 (EDT) From: bobf@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709141511.LAA27043@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:09:52 -0400 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans i did not say this, someone else apparently did. >From: bobf@plan9.bell-labs.com >>> Following on from everyone agreeing that alef is the right way to write >>> applications in Plan9 >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 00:01:37 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA05736 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:01:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from tor.securecomputing.com (tor.securecomputing.com [199.71.190.98]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05732 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by janus.tor.securecomputing.com id <11649>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:01:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:01:01 -0400 From: steve@tor.securecomputing.com (Steve Kotsopoulos) Message-Id: <97Sep15.000118edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com> To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] [reminder] pointer to Plan 9 FAQ Content-Type: text Apparently-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The Plan 9 faq is posted to comp.os.plan9 at the beginning of each month. It is also at news.answers archive sites, look for comp-os/plan9-faq The hypertext version of the faq is always available at url http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/plan9/plan9faq.html >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 04:48:42 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA07500 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:48:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07496 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA21463; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:03:43 +0200 Message-ID: <19970915110343.29735@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:03:43 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] XaoS - first threaded version Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi Last weekend I god threaded version of plan9 port working (using spinlocks and rendenzvous) Please if you have SMP box, try it and let me know how it works/performance tests. It is available at http://www.ta.jcu.cz/pub/linux/hubicka/experimental/xaos30zf.tgz XaoS with threads can be started xaos -threads Performance should be mesasuer using key 'L' - it prints number of frames per second. So you should do tests as follow: Start XaoS and press 'L' it will display framerate of calcualting first image (usually low) start zooming - numbers will fly around. Let me know number approx half of second after start. Let me know speed in -threads 1 and -threads Also XaoS still don't have image saving code. I think wrbitmapfile don't fit my needs, since it don't have any way to specify colormap. I don't save resulting image (since it should be dithered etc) but image in my internal structures instead. So please if possible, let me know code to save 8bpp/32bpp(troecolor) image with palette. Last question is where to install XaoS? /386/bin/xaos and /sys/lib/XaoS for shared data? Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 07:25:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id HAA08245 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:25:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from route1.france3.fr (route1.france3.fr [194.51.91.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08239 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr by route1.france3.fr (8.8.7/SMI-4.1) id LAA11367; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:29:25 GMT Received: from system.mdrf.france3.fr (system.mdrf.france3.fr [10.175.0.53]) by shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00654; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:28:20 +0200 From: Boyd Roberts Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:22:41 +0200 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: RE: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199709151322.29351.9.batof@france3.fr> X-UTM: N 31 447109 5411310 La Maison de Radio France, France 3, Direction Informatique, Systemes & Reseaux X-Face: #"03$i1:"_[Hbg~GCPw}`+d4_R`}RaDfYixB`n-mCB0E8m#tNd>uyd[d)`nEix7Bys(:o#o2y7$(=,&BTXdH7)Hm5jP}H5:y]}0GT4?uTT(Y0(Cu7tWBXj\|q\@jZ8 Y_qn8)NV0*$uO][i7p"K2>Kg( Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans why not just break both your arms and buy the microsoft keyboard? >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 07:25:12 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id HAA08265 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from route1.france3.fr (route1.france3.fr [194.51.91.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08241 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr by route1.france3.fr (8.8.7/SMI-4.1) id LAA11505; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:29:56 GMT Received: from system.mdrf.france3.fr (system.mdrf.france3.fr [10.175.0.53]) by shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00662; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:28:52 +0200 From: Jan Hubicka Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:28:24 +0200 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Porting XaoS (saga continues) X-Helo: cse.psu.edu (130.203.3.50) X-Rcpt-To: plan9.cs.su.oz.au!9fans-local Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA15376; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by claven.cse.psu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id EAA15322 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from horac.ta.jcu.cz (hubicka@horac.ta.jcu.cz [194.212.19.35]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA15318 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hubicka@localhost) by horac.ta.jcu.cz (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA17377; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:28:24 +0200 Message-ID: <19970909102824.44591@horac.ta.jcu.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu X-UIDL: f4e23b2d1410e81b2385ee59b1a92a1d Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi Yesterday I solved problem with compiler - cleaned up code. Everything seems to work now. 9c is nice, that it detects ugly code and automatically refuses it. :) Maybe UGLYNESS constant should be set higher in next version. I also did some cleaning in order to make XaoS smaller but not big success :( Just saved about 8KB of executable... Question 1: Since XaoS now seems to work, I decided to start work at multithreading. I ran into problems with plan9 api. I use following scheme: I have queue with points, each processor takes point from queue, calculates it and its neighbors and adds new points into queue if neccesary. I need an lock to queue to avoid conflicts. I found spinlocks in plan9 API, but I wonder if they eats CPU time or not. At least BeOS implementation of spinlocks is that CPU waits in loop until other CPU unlocks it. It is not what I need, since I want to do tests at singe CPU, where it should make problems.... And other problem is that in case queue is empty, thread has to asleep, since other process should be calculationg some pixel and then when he adds new points into queue, it calls wakeup function to wakeup waiting process, that should start processing new points. At the end, when threads know that he is latest working, and that queue is empty, he sets exit flag and wakes up all threads, they reads exit flag and exits imediately. Is there some sleep/wakeup mechanizm (in combination with locks, since I need to be sure that when process asleeps, queue is empty. So I need stuff similiar to cond in POSIX). Or is there some completly different way to implement this eleganlty using plan9 API? I saw sleep/wakeup implementation in docs. Is this function in libc, or do I need to copy sources? Question 2: What bitmap depts 81/2 currently supports? 1bpp,8bpp and some others? Many thanks to those, who replied to my last question. This list seems to be most helpfull from all lists I ever saw! Honza -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have you browsed my www pages? Look at: http://www.paru.cas.cz/~hubicka Koules-the game for Svgalib,X11 and OS/2, Xonix-the game for X11 czech documentation for linux index, original 2D computer art and funny 100 years old photos and articles are there! >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 09:33:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA09999 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:33:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09994 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA04244 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:28:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:28:46 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709151328.IAA04244@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Intro(5) second to last pargraph says: "When the owner attempts to do something to a file, the owner, group and other permissions are consulted, and if any of them grant the requested permission, the operation is allowed. For someone who is not the owner, but is a member of the file's group, the group and other permissions are consulted. For everyone else, the other permissions are used." This means that to deny the owner write permission you must deny everyone (unless the owner is not a member of the file's group). I think the paragraph should read: "When the owner attempts to do something to a file, the owner permissions are consulted only, and if they grant the requested permission, the operation is allowed. For someone who is not the owner, but is a member of the files's group, only the group permissions are consulted. The other permissions are only used if the requestor is not the owner or a member of the file's group." Comments? David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 09:50:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA10518 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:50:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from tor.securecomputing.com (tor.securecomputing.com [199.71.190.98]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10513 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by janus.tor.securecomputing.com id <11649>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:50:59 -0400 Message-Id: <97Sep15.095059edt.11649@janus.tor.securecomputing.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:50:37 -0400 From: "ozan s. yigit" Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > why not just break both your arms and buy the microsoft keyboard? i assume you mean microsoft "natural" keyboard. it takes some getting used to, but feels quite confortable for touch typing. wrist position is certainly improved. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 10:01:25 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA10981 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:01:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp1.fas.harvard.edu (root@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.30.81]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10973 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:01:21 -0400 (EDT) From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com Received: from p9rsc.research.att.com (rcox.student.harvard.edu [140.247.81.214]) by smtp1.fas.harvard.edu with SMTP id KAA17340; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709151401.KAA17340@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:52:53 -0400 Subject: re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I think the paragraph should read: "When the owner attempts to do something to a file, the owner permissions are consulted only, and if they grant the requested permission, the operation is allowed. For someone who is not the owner, but is a member of the files's group, only the group permissions are consulted. The other permissions are only used if the requestor is not the owner or a member of the file's group." but then it wouldn't be true. it is silly to honor permissions that are not monotonically nonincreasing (octal digitwise) from owner to everyone. if you are the owner and the permissions are something like 466, then you can just change them with chmod. if you are in the group and the permissions are something like 446 or 646, then you can just become none (echo -n none >/dev/user) and then you have permission again. look at /sys/src/fs/port/sub.c:/^iaccess on the cd. russ >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 10:18:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA11466 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11452 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.proxima.alt.za (localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA05995 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:22:10 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709151422.QAA05995@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Authentication-Warning: foible.proxima.alt.za: localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions In-reply-to: Message from rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com of "Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:52:53 -0400." <199709151401.KAA17340@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:22:09 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > > if you are the owner and the permissions are > something like 466, then you can just change them > with chmod. if you are in the group and the > permissions are something like 446 or 646, then > you can just become none (echo -n none >/dev/user) > and then you have permission again. > And yet, David has a point. I remember my first confrontation with the description of permissions, and it seemed equally silly. But in practice the owner may prefer to be reminded not to alter the contents of a file that a log process is allowed to update. Note, as David says, that the more obvious approach has no mechanism to stop the owner doing anything if anyone else can do it. In such a situation, a 446 permission serves no useful purpose. -- Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 10:43:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA12328 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:43:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA12324 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA04314 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:38:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:38:50 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709151438.JAA04314@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com > I think the paragraph should read: > > "When the owner attempts to do something to a file, the owner > permissions are consulted only, and if they grant the requested > permission, the operation is allowed. For someone who is not the > owner, but is a member of the files's group, only the group > permissions are consulted. The other permissions are only used > if the requestor is not the owner or a member of the file's group." > >but then it wouldn't be true. You could have assumed the following: int iaccess(File *f, Dentry *d, int m) { /* * various forms of superuser */ if(writeallow) return 0; if(wstatallow && d->mode & DDIR) return 0; if(duallow && duallow == f->uid && d->mode & DDIR && (m == DREAD || m == DEXEC)) return 0; /* * owner is next */ if(f->uid == d->uid) { if(m << 6 & d->mode) return 0; else return 1; } /* * group membership is hard */ if(ingroup(f->uid, d->gid)) { if(m << 3 & d->mode) return 0; else return 1; } /* * other is easiest */ if(m & d->mode) return 0; else return 1; } Take for example the incoming directory for anonymous ftp, /usr/none/incoming. My way it can be: d--wxrwxr-x M X none none Your way it has to be: d--wx-wx-wx M X none none (you have to change perms to see contents) or d--wxrwx-wx M X none sys (or something not none) >it is silly to honor permissions that are not >monotonically nonincreasing (octal digitwise) >from owner to everyone. Huh? >if you are the owner and the permissions are >something like 466, then you can just change them >with chmod. if you are in the group and the >permissions are something like 446 or 646, then >you can just become none (echo -n none >/dev/user) >and then you have permission again. So, you are the owner. >look at /sys/src/fs/port/sub.c:/^iaccess >on the cd. Things Change. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 10:49:56 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA12793 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:49:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp1.fas.harvard.edu (root@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.30.81]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12788 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:49:51 -0400 (EDT) From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com Received: from p9rsc.research.att.com (rcox.student.harvard.edu [140.247.81.214]) by smtp1.fas.harvard.edu with SMTP id KAA22902; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709151449.KAA22902@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans lucio@proxima.alt.za writes: description of permissions, and it seemed equally silly. But in practice the owner may prefer to be reminded not to alter the contents of a file that a log process is allowed to update. i don't know. that implies that the log process is not running as you, i.e. is running as none or another user, like "upas". if another user, then make that user the owner of the file. if "none", think strongly about the append-only flag. the editors warn about that, and it encourages others not to edit the file either. russ >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 11:11:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA13425 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13415 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.proxima.alt.za (localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA06199; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:15:13 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709151515.RAA06199@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Authentication-Warning: foible.proxima.alt.za: localhost.proxima.alt.za [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu cc: lucio@foible.proxima.alt.za Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions In-reply-to: Message from rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com of "Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:26:10 -0400." <199709151449.KAA22902@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:15:13 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > > i don't know. that implies that the log process is not > running as you, i.e. is running as none or another user, like "upas". > if another user, then make that user the owner of the file. > if "none", think strongly about the append-only flag. > the editors warn about that, and it encourages others not > to edit the file either. > Russ, you're missing a point here. On the one hand, quite correctly, the owner has one "permission" bit no-one else can alter, namely ownership. On the other, making group and other inclusive does not gain you anything, it is better to make them exclusive, as Unix does, so that you can stop the owner from accessing something while allowing arbitrary users, than to have no means whatsoever to achieve this objective. There's nothing compulsory about it, nobody has to use the permissions in this fashion, but removing the facility by opting for the intuitively obvious approach, decreases the flexibility of the tool. >From the BSD man pages: [EACCES] Permission bits of the file mode do not permit the request- ed access, or search permission is denied on a component of the path prefix. The owner of a file has permission checked with respect to the ``owner'' read, write, and exe- cute mode bits, members of the file's group other than the owner have permission checked with respect to the ``group'' mode bits, and all others have permissions checked with re- spect to the ``other'' mode bits. Note the "members of the file's group _other_than_the_owner_" and the implicit similar exception in the "other". This reads precisely as David would have it. -- Lucio de Re (lucio@proxima.alt.za) Disclaimer: I'm working at getting my opinions to agree with me. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 11:23:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA13978 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:23:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA13974 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04376 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:26 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:26 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709151518.KAA04376@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Lucio de Re >From the BSD man pages: I tried carefully not to use the *NIX description here since Plan9 is NOT *NIX. I don't want to start a trend :-) >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 11:34:30 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA14380 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:34:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ducky.net (gate.ducky.net [198.145.101.253]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14371 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ducky.net (localhost.ducky.net [127.0.0.1]) by ducky.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09528 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709151533.IAA09528@ducky.net> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:33:26 -0700 From: Mike Haertel Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >i assume you mean microsoft "natural" keyboard. it takes some getting >used to, but feels quite confortable for touch typing. wrist position >is certainly improved. Microsoft keyboard is convex. Regular keyboard is flat. Kinesis keyboard has a separate concave cavity for each hand. The idea is to wrap the keys around the hands and so bring them closer. Once you have a different keyboard it's always hard to switch. But I have a *terrible* time using a Microsoft keyboard! >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 11:45:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA14756 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:45:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from route1.france3.fr (route1.france3.fr [194.51.91.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14723 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr by route1.france3.fr (8.8.7/SMI-4.1) id PAA05925; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:49:21 GMT Received: from system.mdrf.france3.fr (system.mdrf.france3.fr [10.175.0.53]) by shlakensaft.mdrf.france3.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02107; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:48:20 +0200 From: Boyd Roberts Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:42:21 +0200 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] re: emacs jokes -Reply In-Reply-To: <199709151533.IAA09528@ducky.net> Message-ID: <199709151742.2253.9.batoz@france3.fr> X-UTM: N 31 447109 5411310 La Maison de Radio France, France 3, Direction Informatique, Systemes & Reseaux X-Face: #"03$i1:"_[Hbg~GCPw}`+d4_R`}RaDfYixB`n-mCB0E8m#tNd>uyd[d)`nEix7Bys(:o#o2y7$(=,&BTXdH7)Hm5jP}H5:y]}0GT4?uTT(Y0(Cu7tWBXj\|q\@jZ8 Y_qn8)NV0*$uO][i7p"K2>Kg( Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Mike Haertel But I have a *terrible* time using a Microsoft keyboard! as i said to myself the first time i saw it: just like their software. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 14:02:32 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA17813 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:02:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp1.fas.harvard.edu (root@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.30.81]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17808 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:02:22 -0400 (EDT) From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com Received: from p9rsc.research.att.com (rcox.student.harvard.edu [140.247.81.214]) by smtp1.fas.harvard.edu with SMTP id OAA10449; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709151801.OAA10449@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:59:43 -0400 Subject: re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans gdb wrote: Take for example the incoming directory for anonymous ftp, /usr/none/incoming. There is a way to handle incoming directories for anon ftp working within the current permissions scheme, and it is (tersely) illustrated on the CD. (Basically, we want to be able to drop files off in /incoming but don't want the outside world to be able to read them). You can create a directory in incoming for each user, and set the permissions appropriately: d-rwxrwx-wx rsc rsc /usr/none/incoming/rsc Or you can just create a directory in incoming named for each user (but with any permissions, ownership you want) and bind the directory /usr/$user/incoming onto it, as was done in /lib/namespace.ftp on the CD: bind -c /usr/andrew/incoming /usr/none/incoming/andrew This has a few benefits. The first is that each user has h^(is er) own incoming directory and thus the namespace collisions go down tremendously (most users know when they are expecting files, especially files named "foo" or "bar"). Another advantage is that each user can turn on or off, quite easily, whether or not they are expecting files. Just "chmod o-wx incoming". By having this on only when expecting files, you reduce the chance of someone maliciously filling your disk with garbage. If you were really paranoid, you could "chmod -r /usr/none/incoming" and then people would have to know which directory to be in to drop off files. Third, if you don't want the world seeing whatever file is being dropped off, you might not (at least on a large server installation) want other users of the system seeing it either. This takes care of that as well. Fourth, if you want to leave a file for someone else, then you can simply create one in your incoming directory and chmod it "o+r" and then if they know the name, they can still read it. You've got all the functionality of the traditional ftp /incoming directories as well as easy user control of personal incoming directories. Russ ps. ignore my from address; i speak with less authority (and perhaps common sense) than anyone else on this list. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 15 15:38:44 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA20493 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:38:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20478 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04534 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:33:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:33:29 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709151933.OAA04534@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: re: [9fans] Plan9 permissions Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com > > gdb wrote: > > Take for example the incoming directory for anonymous ftp, > /usr/none/incoming. > >There is a way to handle incoming directories for >anon ftp working within the current permissions scheme, and it [deleted yet another example of plan9's benefits over other OSs] From: Lucio de Re > >Note, as David says, that the more obvious approach has no mechanism to >stop the owner doing anything if anyone else can do it. In such a >situation, a 446 permission serves no useful purpose. I guess it comes down to that. From the file owner's point of view what is the difference from 777, 077 (assuming owner is in file's group) or 007 and from the group's point of view of 077 and 007? It would seem you are throwing away access granularity for no good reason. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 13:18:02 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA11440 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:18:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11432 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA06449 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:12:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:12:29 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709161712.MAA06449@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] adding separate rendezvous space to Plan9 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I added a new flag to rfork() yesterday. (This one is ok; really!) The name RFCRENDG (RForkCleanRENDezvousGroup) is compatable with the others like RFCNAMEG. There is no RFRENDG because copying the rendezvous space is not helpful. If the flag is not specified the rendezvous space is shared. This was necessary to enhance the user-space lock stuff I added for C. In liblock I added qlock(), rlock(), incref() and friends. I needed RFCRENDG because I used rendezvous to implement qlock and the rendezvous space can get dirty. I did that because many of the C library functions, for example, are not safe to call from processes rforked with RFMEM. After thinking about it for a while I decided that instead of making every program pay for the possibility of RFMEM, I would enhance the lock library to make it easy to add protection around the unsafe calls. If you look at the malloc.c in the ndb source, you will see what I mean. Instead of what was done in ndb, just surround calls to malloc() and free() with either lock() and unlock() or qlock() and qunlock() depending on the need of that program. I found two other problems. In /sys/src/ape/lib/ap/plan9/sys9.h there is a reference to RFREND. I guess someone thought this was a good idea too, but did not follow through. The name does not match the others so I used RFCRENDG. Should I ask what Inferno or that other thing uses? Do I care? And in /acme/bin/src/win.l there is a RFMEM in the first rfork() in the routine run() that shouldn't be there. (I found this when I reordered the Ebadarg tests in the rfork system call in the kernel.) I only found two places that had to change as a result, a RFCRENDG was added to newns() in the libauth libraries for both C and alef. I'm sure there are other places in, especially, alef code to take advantage of the new flag, but not necessary. David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 13:25:49 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA11730 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:25:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11724 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA06465 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:20:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:20:39 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709161720.MAA06465@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] adding a roallow to the plan9 file server Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Like duallow, I am adding a roallow to the file server commands. The primary reason for this is to allow the file server to be backed up. (For those of us without a WORM.) It will have the same command interface as duallow and will require a small change in iaccess() to allow read access to everything. While the user is in this "god" mode, should the user have normal access to the file server? I am thinking no. This will keep from running the server is this mode all the time. Comments, please. David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 13:29:48 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id NAA11955 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:29:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11936 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:29:07 -0400 (EDT) From: howard@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709161729.NAA11936@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:27:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] adding separate rendezvous space to Plan9 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > I found two other problems. In /sys/src/ape/lib/ap/plan9/sys9.h there > is a reference to RFREND. I guess someone thought this was a good > idea too, but did not follow through. Brazil added RFREND to for the rendezvous space. I needed it so the the implementation of nonblocking I/O (needed for X11) in libap would work ok in the presence of children forking. Since most of the application code in Brazil is the same as in Plan 9, we'd been maintaining stuff on Brazil and copying it back to Plan 9. You found a place where we weren't careful enough about removing Brazil-specific stuff. Howard Trickey >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 14:45:10 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA15009 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA06579; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:39:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:39:52 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709161839.NAA06579@ns.dbSystems.com> To: amos@cs.huji.ac.il Subject: [9fans] Re: Bug in sysrendezvous? Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Amos Shapir Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:59:36 -0400 > >The "tag" operand of rendezvous is defined as ulong; but in the >function sysrendezvous (in sysproc.c), it's copied into an int, which >is used as an index in a table by the REND macro. If I'm mistaken >correctly, this means that if the tag is negative, the resulting >pointer would point *outside* the table! > >I guess this bug was not discovered because the tag is usually an >address in user space, but nothing in the manual suggests it has to be >below 0x80000000 (or that it shouldn't be 0xdeadbeef...) > >Did anybody else had any trouble with this? Did you? I am now getting into the rendezvous stuff and looked back and found your mail. Did you do anything about this? If so, what? Perhaps just casting the value to a ulong before the hash calc will work? All that is really needed is the remainder. (positive of course.) change #define REND(p,s) ((p)->rendhash[(s)%RENDHASH]) to #define REND(p,s) ((p)->rendhash[(ulong)(s)%RENDHASH]) David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 15:02:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA15897 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:02:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15890 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA06615; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:57:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:57:30 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709161857.NAA06615@ns.dbSystems.com> To: forsyth@plan9.cs.york.ac.uk Subject: [9fans] Re: bug in aux/listen Cc: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: forsyth@plan9.cs.york.ac.uk Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:53:05 -0400 subject: bug in aux/listen >aux/listen does an rfork sharing memory to create the listener for >each service. that also ensures that > Subsequent forks by the parent will then > propagate the shared data and bss between children. > [rfork(2)] >aux/listen later forks a process to handle each incoming call. >that doesn't specify RFMEM, but is still sharing memory. Going through some old stuff and I found this one. I think you are miss reading the above line from rfork(2). I think it is saying that subsequent forks by the *parent*, if called with RFMEM, will share data and bss between children of the *parent*. Subsequent forks of the children are not affected unless they too do a RFMEM. I verified this behavour by the code in sysproc.c and segment.c. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 15:05:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA16067 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:05:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16049 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA06639 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:00:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:00:25 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709161900.OAA06639@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Bug in sysrendezvous? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: "G. David Butler" >From: Amos Shapir >Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:59:36 -0400 >> >>The "tag" operand of rendezvous is defined as ulong; but in the >>function sysrendezvous (in sysproc.c), it's copied into an int, which >>is used as an index in a table by the REND macro. If I'm mistaken >>correctly, this means that if the tag is negative, the resulting >>pointer would point *outside* the table! >> [snip] >#define REND(p,s) ((p)->rendhash[(ulong)(s)%RENDHASH]) Well, I jumped the gun here. The fix was posted long ago with a declaration change in sysrendezvous() to a ulong. Sorry for the rehash :-). >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 15:21:24 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA17113 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:21:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17103 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:21:18 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709161921.PAA17103@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:39:33 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: Bug in sysrendezvous? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >The "tag" operand of rendezvous is defined as ulong; but in the >function sysrendezvous (in sysproc.c), it's copied into an int, which i think philw said at the time to change the declaration of long ... tag to ulong ... in sysrendezvous, which i seem to have done on all the systems i've got here. it obviously could go badly wrong otherwise. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 15:26:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA17489 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:26:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17485 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:25:56 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709161925.PAA17485@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: bug in aux/listen Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Going through some old stuff and I found this one. I think you > are miss reading the above line from rfork(2). I think it is > saying that subsequent forks by the *parent*, if called with RFMEM, > will share data and bss between children of the *parent*. Subsequent > forks of the children are not affected unless they too do a RFMEM. The flag gets set on the segment, not the process. Any process created with that segment mapped will see the same segment. -rob >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 16 16:06:07 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA18958 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:06:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18950 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 16:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA06715 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:00:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:00:44 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709162000.PAA06715@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Re: bug in aux/listen Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com > >> saying that subsequent forks by the *parent*, if called with RFMEM, >> will share data and bss between children of the *parent*. Subsequent >> forks of the children are not affected unless they too do a RFMEM. > >The flag gets set on the segment, not the process. Any process created >with that segment mapped will see the same segment. Let me look again. Hmmm... Ah, there it is, hiding at the top... switch(s->type&SG_TYPE) { case SG_TEXT: case SG_SHARED: case SG_PHYSICAL: case SG_SHDATA: incref(s); return s; Ok, once it is marked shared any new fork, no matter what the share flag is set to, will get the *same* segment. Wow, you need to be careful with RFMEM!!! I stand corrected. David Butler >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 19 17:39:28 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA27507 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:39:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from murrow.prognet.com (prognet.com [205.219.198.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27502 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from one119.prognet.com by murrow.prognet.com with SMTP id AA30007 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>); Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:39:21 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970919214519.012d0ab4@mail.prognet.com> X-Sender: skipt@mail.prognet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:45:19 -0700 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Fariborz \"Skip\" Tavakkolian" Subject: [9fans] Comprehensive list of supported x86 motherboards? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I've checked the FAQ. Anyone have a more complete list of supported Pentium motherboards? Any recommendations on the motherboards? >From owner-9fans Fri Sep 19 19:22:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id TAA29017 for 9fans-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:22:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29013 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:22:09 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709192322.TAA29013@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:29:39 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] Comprehensive list of supported x86 motherboards? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans after installing the pc-specific changes from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9/update), i've had no trouble with any of the Pentium motherboards i've tried, including Gigabyte, ASUStek, and the ubiquitous NoName. perhaps it is no longer worthwhile making a list, except of boards that do NOT work. i've also had no trouble with Cyrix x86, or AMD K5 and K6. i'm happy with my K6-based terminal. >From owner-9fans Sat Sep 20 05:49:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id FAA03021 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:49:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA03017 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:49:09 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199709200949.FAA03017@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:57:23 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] Comprehensive list of supported x86 motherboards? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans i wrote that i'd had no trouble with Cyrix x86, but i've been told that someone had trouble with the Cyrix 486's floating-point. although i wrote Cyrix x86, i was thinking only of pentium-level chips on pentium motherboards; there are two Cyrix chips at that level (586 and 686), and i'll need to check which of those (if not both) i've actually used. i AM using AMD K5 (for a file server) and K6-200 (for my terminal). >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 22 02:15:39 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id CAA20767 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:15:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from nol.net (uucp@dazed.nol.net [206.126.32.101]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20754 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nol.net (8.8.5/NOL - 8.*) id BAA19546 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:15:09 -0500 (CDT) X-AUTH: NOLNET SENDMAIL AUTH Received: from UNKNOWN(206.126.32.110), claiming to be "grassy.nol.net" via SMTP by dazed, id smtpdAAAa004lF; Mon Sep 22 01:15:05 1997 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:15:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Brandon Black To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Comprehensive list of supported x86 motherboards? In-Reply-To: <199709200949.FAA03017@cse.psu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I've successfully (sp?) used the AMD 5x86-133 (which, despite the name, are really a 486 clone on coke or something) as a Plan 9 termina, file server and CPU server, with no hacks, no updates anmd no problems. It identifies as a 486-133 with most OS's, including Plan 9. Brandon On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > i wrote that i'd had no trouble with Cyrix x86, but i've been told that someone > had trouble with the Cyrix 486's floating-point. although i wrote Cyrix x86, > i was thinking only of pentium-level chips on pentium motherboards; > there are two Cyrix chips at that level (586 and 686), > and i'll need to check which of those (if not both) i've actually used. > > i AM using AMD K5 (for a file server) and K6-200 (for my terminal). > >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 25 08:55:33 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id IAA26116 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:55:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26102 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu3 [143.106.7.7]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17197 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:50:16 -0300 (EST) Received: (from 973930@localhost) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24005 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:50:12 -0300 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:50:12 -0300 (EST) From: FRANKLIN ROBERT ARAUJO FRANCA <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> Message-Id: <199709251250.JAA24005@xingu.dcc.unicamp.br> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Installation Problems X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I'm trying to install Plan 9 in two distinct machines and I have received error messages. The machines are PCs. One is a Pentium 133 and other is a 486 DX4. The hard disk configurations are: Pentium: Hard Disk IDE Partition Status Type Mbytes Use C:1 A Pri-Dos 500 17% 2 Non-Dos 67 2% 3 Non-Dos 2410 80% I install Disk 1 without problems, then when I go to install the set of three disks, I received the follow message: An error ocurred while trying to build a Plan 9 partition table for the disc. The most likely cause is insufficient disc space. 486 DX4: Hard Disk SCSI Partition Status Type Mbytes Use C:1 A Pri-DOs 251 17% 2 Non-Dos 885 60% 3 Non-DOs 88 6% I install Disk 1 without problems, then when I go to install the set of three disks, I received the follows two message: An error ocurred executin the command /bin/disk/prep. The error was: prep 22 not enough room for boot area. An error ocurred while trying the build a Plan 9 partition table for the disc. The most likely cause is insufficient disc space. The hard disks have enough space to install Plan 9 but I don't know the messages causes. Thanks. Franklin. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 25 09:35:26 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA26896 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:35:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp1.fas.harvard.edu (root@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.30.81]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA26892 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:35:22 -0400 (EDT) From: rsc@plan9.bell-labs.com Received: from p9rsc.research.att.com (rcox.student.harvard.edu [140.247.81.214]) by smtp1.fas.harvard.edu with SMTP id JAA30995; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:35:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709251335.JAA30995@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:32:42 -0400 Subject: re: [9fans] Installation Problems Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans You should not have the partitions marked as non-dos. They should simply just not be there. I'm assuming you intended your non-dos partitions for Plan 9. Plan 9 assumes they are for something else, and leaves them alone. Plan 9 installs itself after the last partition, dos or non-dos. Just leave blank space there instead of blank non-dos partitions. Russ >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 25 09:43:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id JAA27146 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:43:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (msfriedl@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.2.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27133 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from msfriedl@localhost) by cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de id PAA18249 (8.7.6/7.5c-FAU); for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) From: Markus Friedl Message-Id: <199709251343.PAA18249@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Subject: Re: [9fans] Installation Problems To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199709251250.JAA24005@xingu.dcc.unicamp.br> from "FRANKLIN ROBERT ARAUJO FRANCA" at Sep 25, 97 09:50:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > The hard disks have enough space to install Plan 9 but I don't > know the messages causes. plan9 uses the free space at the end of the disk. just remove all unused partitions with 'fdisk', otherwise the install program will not find free space. >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 25 10:09:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA27812 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chico.csh.rit.edu (chico.csh.rit.edu [129.21.60.8]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27808 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (davek@localhost) by chico.csh.rit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA15485 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:09:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199709251409.KAA15485@chico.csh.rit.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: chico.csh.rit.edu: davek owned process doing -bs X-Authentication-Warning: chico.csh.rit.edu: davek@localhost didn't use HELO protocol Reply-To: davek@mcp.csh.rit.edu To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] sparc instalation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <15483.875196549.1@mail.csh.rit.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:09:10 -0400 From: Dave M Klint Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I'm trying to start a plan 9 network on a number of sparc stations (IPC's). I have a working file server, but I can't get the auth server running. I need to know what processes (if any) need to be running on the auth server exclusivly so that it can authenticate other machines booting on the network. -Dave >From owner-9fans Thu Sep 25 11:10:03 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA29127 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA29113 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (xingu3 [143.106.7.7]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00085 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:04:52 -0300 (EST) Received: (from 973930@localhost) by xingu.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29750 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:04:51 -0300 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:04:51 -0300 (EST) From: FRANKLIN ROBERT ARAUJO FRANCA <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> Message-Id: <199709251504.MAA29750@xingu.dcc.unicamp.br> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Installation Problems X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The non-dos partitions are used for Linux. My hard disks have a blank (free) space in the middle of disk. They don't have a blank space in the end of disk. Should be this the problem? Thanks. Franklin. >From owner-9fans Mon Sep 29 22:21:53 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id WAA16161 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:21:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16154 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA11059 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:15:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:15:15 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709300215.VAA11059@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] adding directory indexes to plan9 file server Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Whew, that was a bunch of work... I just created 1,000,000 zero length files in a single directory. The files are named 1,2,3,...,999998,999999,1000000. term% mkdir test;cd test term% time makebigdir 101.53u 2416.18s 14443.96r That is 69 file create(2)s a second! Remember a create(2) sends a walk(5) first and if it fails, then a create(5)... term% time cat . | wc -c 116000000 0.54u 27.15s 355.18r [yes, some magic happened here too] Don't try that with 'ls' unless you have some VM! (My DIRPERBUF is 34 instead of the usual 46 on a PC because I put NDBLOCK from 6 to 13, so the real number of directory blocks is at least 29412 instead of 21740. That is over 115Mb!) The index overhead is between 1970 and 983 pages depending on splits during inserts. In either case, the index depth is 3. That represents a 6.7% to 3.3% overhead. Indexes do not put any limits on the size of a directory. For the following times the file server is a 100Mhz Pentium w/32Mb RAM and a 2Gb disk on an adaptec SCSI controller. The terminal is a 486 DX4/100. term% time ls 0 ls: 0: file does not exist 0.00u 0.00s 0.36r term% time ls 5z ls: 5z: file does not exist 0.00u 0.01s 0.29r term% time ls z ls: z: file does not exist 0.00u 0.01s 0.05r term% time ls 1 1 0.00u 0.00s 0.03r term% time ls 2 2 0.00u 0.02s 0.21r term% time ls 3 3 0.00u 0.03s 0.27r term% time ls 4 4 0.00u 0.02s 0.24r term% time ls 5 5 0.00u 0.01s 0.22r term% time ls 6 6 0.00u 0.02s 0.04r term% time ls 7 7 0.00u 0.01s 0.16r term% time ls 8 8 0.00u 0.01s 0.15r term% time ls 9 9 0.00u 0.01s 0.06r term% time cat /dev/null > 0 0.00u 0.01s 0.02r term% time rm 0 0.00u 0.00s 0.05r term% time cat /dev/null > 5z 0.00u 0.02s 0.02r term% time cat /dev/null > z 0.00u 0.01s 0.02r term% time rm 5z 0.00u 0.01s 0.04r term% time rm z 0.00u 0.00s 0.03r On to the next project... David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 11:21:16 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id LAA26323 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:21:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26319 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA12662 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:14:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:14:58 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199709301514.KAA12662@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I would like any company that has distribution rights to Plan9 to contact me for license availability. I want to buy some licenses to use Plan9 on file and cpu servers. I have found out that Lucent will not license Plan9 for distribution any longer (Inferno is king). As far as commercial use goes, they are thinking of either a subscription charge or the same terms as before (25,000 +100 per server) without distribution rights. With that kind of pricing, I'm going to something else. Any ideas? VsTA? FreeBSD? RTEMS? QNX? Thanks David Butler gdb@dbSystems.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 12:23:51 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id MAA27994 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:23:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp2.nwnexus.com (smtp2.nwnexus.com [198.137.231.18]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27990 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coho.halcyon.com (coho.halcyon.com [198.137.231.21]) by smtp2.nwnexus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA29542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:23:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:23:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Frank Gleason To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses In-Reply-To: <199709301514.KAA12662@ns.dbSystems.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, G. David Butler wrote: > I have found out that Lucent will not license Plan9 for > distribution any longer (Inferno is king). All that excitement about a program for ordering pizza. Go figure. frankg@halycon.com >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 12:46:20 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id MAA28621 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:46:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28616 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jewel.ucsd.edu (jewel.ucsd.edu [132.239.121.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA15752 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jewel.ucsd.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12789; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:41:59 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:41:59 -0700 From: eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) Message-Id: <199709301641.JAA12789@jewel.ucsd.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:14:58 -0500 > From: "G. David Butler" > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > > I have found out that Lucent will not license Plan9 for > distribution any longer (Inferno is king). That is sad. Would've been nice to see Plan9 exploited in a field app. I wish I had money to throw at it but my bosses are pretty much hung up on junk you can buy off-the-shelf and satisfies the 80/20 solution (eech). > As far as commercial > use goes, they are thinking of either a subscription charge or the > same terms as before (25,000 +100 per server) without distribution > rights. What exactly is a 'subscription charge'? I've not heard that sort of arrangement before. > With that kind of pricing, I'm going to something else. Any ideas? > VsTA? FreeBSD? RTEMS? QNX? vsta is very raw, and graphics are nothing compared to anything 'modern' I think my problem with the *BSDs is they're still reinventing the wheel. Again. I'll probably end up using FreeBSD somewhere in my work (sort-of like ATM machines for healthcare information and imagery), mostly 'cuz it's what my boss knows, but also as Plan9 lacks 16b/32b color. Actually I have some of the 16b/32b color fixed: a compiling blit that works for 16b/32b, hooks in devvga, etc. Have to examine the other parts of libgnot, cope with the colormap stuff, and steal my Matrox MGA back :) .. probably integrate the softscreen and hardscreen somehow.. > Thanks > David Butler > gdb@dbSystems.com Regards, Eric Dorman University of California at San Diego School of Medicine edorman@ucsd.edu >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 14:20:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA00969 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:20:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00963 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8334 invoked by uid 991); 30 Sep 1997 18:20:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19970930182047.8332.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:41:59 PDT." <199709301641.JAA12789@jewel.ucsd.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:20:47 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) writes: | sort of arrangement before. | Actually I have some of the 16b/32b color fixed: a compiling blit that | works for 16b/32b, hooks in devvga, etc. Have to examine the other | parts of libgnot, cope with the colormap stuff, and steal my Matrox MGA | back :) .. probably integrate the softscreen and hardscreen somehow.. Speaking of that, has anyone thought about building chipset specific versions of /dev/bitblt? (i.e. bind /dev/ark2000 /dev/bitblt) In a lot of cases you might be able to avoid software bitblt entirely, and use the wizzy hardware instead. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 14:48:18 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id OAA01743 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:48:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01737 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jewel.ucsd.edu (jewel.ucsd.edu [132.239.121.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA29681 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jewel.ucsd.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13548; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:44:06 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:44:06 -0700 From: eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) Message-Id: <199709301844.LAA13548@jewel.ucsd.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:20:47 EDT > From: Scott Schwartz > > eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) writes: > | sort of arrangement before. > | Actually I have some of the 16b/32b color fixed: a compiling blit that > | works for 16b/32b, hooks in devvga, etc. Have to examine the other > | parts of libgnot, cope with the colormap stuff, and steal my Matrox MGA > | back :) .. probably integrate the softscreen and hardscreen somehow.. > > Speaking of that, has anyone thought about building chipset specific > versions of /dev/bitblt? (i.e. bind /dev/ark2000 /dev/bitblt) > In a lot of cases you might be able to avoid software bitblt entirely, > and use the wizzy hardware instead. Yes; that's my next thing on the long list of Things I'll Probably Be Too Tired to Do :) Another way of doing it (rather than redo all of bitblt for every hw) would be to have brains in devvga that knew about chipset features, then make gbitblt() into (*gbitblt)() (and others for gbline(?), etc) so bitblt will drop into the hw-specific code instead. Of course, might be slicker to have bitblt code in a userprocess, but would there a performance hit? Might not matter that much. I got wedged trying to scribble into the Matrox MGA from a user process because I couldn't figure out how to wire a user page to a physical address that was higher than KZERO (0x8000000).. the PCI bios tends to wire my MGA framebuffer to 0xe800000 and segattach won't allow physaddrs that high. I *could* change the MGAs framebuffer addr but I'd prefer to let PCI bios set it up where it thinks is ok (as if pci bioses always worked right, heh). eric >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 15:07:52 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA02307 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:07:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02301 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:07:48 -0400 (EDT) From: schwartz@finch.cse.psu.edu Received: (qmail 8584 invoked by uid 991); 30 Sep 1997 19:07:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19970930190747.8583.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> Date: 30 Sep 1997 15:07:47 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans approve robby.the.robot unsubscribe 9fans taweili@usc.edu >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 15:11:27 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA02495 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:11:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02487 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 8630 invoked by uid 991); 30 Sep 1997 19:11:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19970930191121.8628.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:44:06 PDT." <199709301844.LAA13548@jewel.ucsd.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:11:21 EDT From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) writes: | Of course, might be slicker to have bitblt code in a userprocess, | but would there a performance hit? Might not matter that much. QNX does that, and apparently works well. Microkernel, anyone? >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 15:13:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA02600 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:13:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from finch.cse.psu.edu (qmailr@finch.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.29]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02596 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:12:57 -0400 (EDT) From: schwartz@finch.cse.psu.edu Received: (qmail 8653 invoked by uid 991); 30 Sep 1997 19:12:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19970930191256.8652.qmail@finch.cse.psu.edu> Date: 30 Sep 1997 15:12:56 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] ouch Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans $@#$!$! >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 15:57:57 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id PAA03813 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:57:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA03807 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:57:51 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199709301957.PAA03807@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:56:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >Of course, might be slicker to have bitblt code in a userprocess, >but would there a performance hit? Might not matter that much. % ps | grep bitblt jmk 60 1:55 0:45 1304K Read bitblt jmk 61 0:04 0:02 1304K Read bitblt % >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 16:06:14 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA04080 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04075 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jewel.ucsd.edu (jewel.ucsd.edu [132.239.121.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA07871 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jewel.ucsd.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA13779; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:02:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:02:02 -0700 From: eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) Message-Id: <199709302002.NAA13779@jewel.ucsd.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com > To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:56:42 -0400 > Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses > > >Of course, might be slicker to have bitblt code in a userprocess, > >but would there a performance hit? Might not matter that much. > > % ps | grep bitblt > jmk 60 1:55 0:45 1304K Read bitblt > jmk 61 0:04 0:02 1304K Read bitblt > % That's nice, but it doesn't do _me_ any good, now does it :) eld >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 16:52:09 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA05176 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:52:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.cs.su.oz.au (lore.plan9.cs.su.oz.au [129.78.96.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05171 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:51:48 -0400 (EDT) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses From: David Hogan Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:09:50 +1000 In-Reply-To: <199709301844.LAA13548@jewel.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <199710010509.1947.out.bamap@plan9.cs.su.oz.au> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > I got wedged trying to scribble into the Matrox MGA from a user process > because I couldn't figure out how to wire a user page to a physical > address that was higher than KZERO (0x8000000).. the PCI bios tends to > wire my MGA framebuffer to 0xe800000 and segattach won't allow physaddrs > that high. I *could* change the MGAs framebuffer addr but I'd prefer > to let PCI bios set it up where it thinks is ok (as if pci bioses always > worked right, heh). Probably better to set the PCI base addrs yourself -- it's either that, or else hack around with mmu.c. I think that the current implementation only maps 128M of physical space to KZERO; this costs 128K for the pte mappings. I think I might have read somewhere that you can map ``big pages'' with a single pte on the intel arch (at least with recent versions thereof). Either way, it seems advantageous to keep the physical address allocation as contiguous as possible (which means not going with the PCI BIOS allocations). I have some code which allocates addresses for PCI and PnP cards, but it's a bit of a mess. I made this "/dev/cards" interface which allows accessing the device registers from user mode; not efficiently, though, you need segattach for that. FWIW, I have heard that Brazil has some ``improved PCI support''. Do you have aux/vga working with the Matrox Millenium? I'd be interested in that, I have one of these cards at work. >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 17:11:35 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA05593 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:11:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05588 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jewel.ucsd.edu (jewel.ucsd.edu [132.239.121.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA15291 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jewel.ucsd.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14407; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:07:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:07:13 -0700 From: eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) Message-Id: <199709302107.OAA14407@jewel.ucsd.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > From: David Hogan > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:09:50 +1000 [ I'll have to think hard about hacking mmu.c :) .. You're probably [ right about it being good to force the cards to some base address [ rather than accepting what PCI autoconf gave us. > Do you have aux/vga working with the Matrox Millenium? I'd > be interested in that, I have one of these cards at work. Not really; It seemed to me to be pointless to run the card in VGA emulation (vice native) but then I got stuck on the base address problem. One should, howver, be able to get 1024x768x8 on the card (or whatever fits in exactly 1Mb) by frobbing regs; after that it seems you have to go native since you can't map more than 1Mb of the framebuffer into the vga aperture; not enough bits in the page reg. I hope to steal my MGA back soon; I want to get a bit furthur than I did last time I plinked around with it. The docs are a tome but pretty complete at least. eric >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 17:28:13 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA06146 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:28:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from trantor.cse.psu.edu (root@trantor.cse.psu.edu [130.203.3.13]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06142 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:28:09 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com ([204.178.31.2]) by trantor.cse.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21556 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709302128.RAA21556@trantor.cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:19:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans [ I'll have to think hard about hacking mmu.c :) .. You're probably [ right about it being good to force the cards to some base address [ rather than accepting what PCI autoconf gave us. i know this doesn't do you any good (i wish it did) but 10 minutes ago i finished hacking the mmu code to let us map the pci devices where the bios leaves them. you're pretty much forced to do that if you have pci bridges. the old code just started allocating unbacked memory after the end of physical memory for framebuffers and that works ok and is fairly easy to do. the brazil code also has to deal with synchronising the changes to the kernel mappings for multiple processors and it still doesn't use interprocessor interrupts. --jim >From owner-9fans Tue Sep 30 17:50:01 1997 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id RAA06653 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:50:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06649 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jewel.ucsd.edu (jewel.ucsd.edu [132.239.121.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA19452 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by jewel.ucsd.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14484; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:45:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:45:53 -0700 From: eld@jewel.ucsd.edu (Eric Dorman) Message-Id: <199709302145.OAA14484@jewel.ucsd.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com > Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:19:28 -0400 > Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan9 commercial licenses > > [ I'll have to think hard about hacking mmu.c :) .. You're probably > [ right about it being good to force the cards to some base address > [ rather than accepting what PCI autoconf gave us. > > i know this doesn't do you any good (i wish it did) but 10 minutes ago > i finished hacking the mmu code to let us map the pci devices where the > bios leaves them. you're pretty much forced to do that if you have pci > bridges. Actually it's good food for thought. I hadn't thought about bridges and how they are referred to. I've been (perhaps unwisely) avoiding staring real hard at pci as it seems one has to pay for a copy of the spec. If it were $25us it wouldn't bug me, but the only thing i've seen is $100, which is enough to slow me down a bit :) > the brazil code also has to deal with synchronising the changes to the > kernel mappings for multiple processors and it still doesn't use > interprocessor interrupts. ? Hmm thot one would have to force the cpus to reload their page tables when they were changed by other cpus, but I'm not sure how much table state the average P5 or P6 keeps on-chip. > --jim >