From owner-9fans Sat Aug 1 11:46:13 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA18846 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:46:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18842 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808011546.LAA18842@cse.psu.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:39:45 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" Subject: re: [9fans] libretto? Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > From cse.psu.edu!owner-9fans Thu May 21 16:11:02 EDT 1998 > Subject: [9fans] libretto? > From: Digby Tarvin > > Just wondering if anyone has looked at the feasibility of running > Plan9 on a libretto? I just booted Plan 9 over the network on a Libretto 50CT and it seemed to work just fine. I could only do 640x480x1 -- it's some sort of C&T chipset, but I couldn't glean what it was (the new C&T chips seem to map their memory into PCI space, which aux/vga can't look at easily), and I didn't feel like experimenting as the Libretto wasn't mine. If anyone knows, I'd be interested in hearing. I was using a 3C589, the new ethernet drivers from David Butler, and the built-in mouse. Russ From owner-9fans Sat Aug 1 14:45:40 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA19776 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:45:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19772 for <9Fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mindspring.com (user-37kbueo.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.249.216]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA30564 for <9Fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C39AE4.C3A1DAD2@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 18:47:00 -0400 From: Erik Theisen Organization: Glenayre Electronics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9Fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans After applying all the AT&T updates to "Plan 9", I tried to rebuild the world. Several items refused to compile due to "out of mem" conditions, namely some of the larger things in libtiff. After digging around, I see that the maximum segment size is 16MB for PCs (mem.h - SEGMAPSIZE). This would explain the behavior I'm seeing out of the 8c compiler as it uses sbrk to extend its BSS segment up to 16MB before it dies. I tried bumping SEGMAPSIZE to 64 and the machine became unstable. Seems there are other hard coded limits throughout the Plan 9 PC kernel, 16, 64, 128 etc. It appears that the maximum process footprint is limited to 64MB. This is a truly sad condition for modern machines. Has anyone had luck getting the 9 PC kernel out of the 16MB gear? Ciao, Erik From owner-9fans Sat Aug 1 15:34:45 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA20113 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:34:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20108 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808011934.PAA20108@cse.psu.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:33:54 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" Subject: Re: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans This should be a FAQ. ------ forwarded message follows ------ >From cse.psu.edu!owner-9fans Wed Oct 29 00:48:31 EST 1997 Received: from cse.psu.edu ([130.203.3.50]) by plan9; Wed Oct 29 00:48:31 EST 1997 Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06748; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by claven.cse.psu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:48:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id AAA06708 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:47:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from smtp1.fas.harvard.edu (root@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu [140.247.30.81]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06704 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:47:53 -0500 (EST) From: rsc Received: from p9rsc (rcox.student.harvard.edu [140.247.81.214]) by smtp1.fas.harvard.edu with SMTP id AAA06521; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:47:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710290547.AAA06521@smtp1.fas.harvard.edu> To: cse.psu.edu!9fans Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:43:58 -0500 Subject: re: [9fans] How much memory does it require ... Sender: cse.psu.edu!owner-9fans Reply-To: cse.psu.edu!9fans Precedence: bulk This got tossed around two years ago, and I think the resolution was that you could change SEGMAPSIZE in pc/mem.h and all would be fine. The two attached messages contain the necessary bits I think. Nigel Roles said once that 8l uses 20MB to link ghostscript without any printer drivers. Russ --- forwarded messages follow --- From cse.psu.edu!9fans-outgoing-owner Thu Nov 2 13:36:19 EST 1995 From: "G. David Butler" To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: 386 maximum segment size of 16Mb Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu I hate replying to my own mail, but I guess I wasn't finished... :-) >The real question, has anybody looked into increasing this limit? (look >in /sys/src/9/pc/mem.h, SEGMEMSIZE, I think, set to 16.) Make that SEGMAPSIZE. Also several of the machines have this in mem.h: #define SEGMAPSIZE 64 /* 16 is for wooses */ This would imply that all is necessary is to change 16 to 64 in pc/mem.h, but that would be too simple... Thanks again. From cse.psu.edu!9fans-outgoing-owner Thu Nov 2 13:59:19 EST 1995 From: philw@plan9.att.com To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: 386 maximum segment size of 16Mb Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu changing SEGMAPSIZE works fine. It incurs overhead allocated Segment structures so 16 seemed reasonable for a terminal. We really dont use PC's to compile. From owner-9fans Sat Aug 1 15:46:15 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA20333 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:46:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.airmail.net (mail.airmail.net [206.66.12.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20329 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.66.5.117] from [206.66.5.117] by mail.airmail.net (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.250) with smtp for <9fans@cse.psu.edu> sender: id ; Sat, 1 Aug 98 14:46:08 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dina@mail.airmail.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:54:30 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: dina@untitled.net (dina light) Subject: Re: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >This should be a FAQ. > working on it. D i n a Li g h t e: dina@untitled.net +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Serious error. All shortcuts have disappeared. Screen. Mind. Both are blank. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-9fans Sat Aug 1 16:29:25 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA20779 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:29:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20775 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808012029.QAA20775@cse.psu.edu> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:27:28 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans a% grep SEGMAPSIZE /sys/src/brazil/pc/mem.h #define SEGMAPSIZE 512 a% --jim From owner-9fans Mon Aug 3 05:51:21 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA00705 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 05:51:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA00701 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 05:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808030951.FAA00701@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:54:27 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>I tried bumping SEGMAPSIZE to 64 and the machine became unstable. that's enough for me on dozens of machines, with no instability. From owner-9fans Mon Aug 3 15:06:27 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA07625 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:06:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07619 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME ([12.68.162.95]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with SMTP id <19980803190551.OHFH6337@LOCALNAME> for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:05:51 +0000 X-Sender: west9@postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:53:54 +0000 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: Thomas West Subject: [9fans] Need Purchasing Info Message-Id: <19980803190551.OHFH6337@LOCALNAME> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I'm planning to buy a new pc system to run win9X and plan9, and LINUX. Anyone have ordering info they can share for such a system from a US supplier? From owner-9fans Tue Aug 4 12:35:47 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA20213 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:35:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA20202 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:35:41 -0400 (EDT) From: jmk@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808041635.MAA20202@cse.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:35:16 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Need Purchasing Info Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans From: Thomas West Subject: [9fans] Need Purchasing Info I'm planning to buy a new pc system to run win9X and plan9, and LINUX. Anyone have ordering info they can share for such a system from a US supplier? We've bought quite a few systems over the years from American NorthStar Computers 19 E. Melbourne Avenue Melbourne, FL 32901 Tel: 407-728-1550 Fax: 407-777-1131 WWW: www.surfusa.com Contact: Eblan Farris, efarris@surfusa.com They build to order and are big Linux fans. I'm sure they could put something together knowing both what we like for Plan9/Brazil and what Linux is happy with. --jim From owner-9fans Tue Aug 4 14:14:31 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA22295 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:14:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA22291 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mindspring.com (user-38lcptj.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.103.179]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07992 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C78810.8A16D7FB@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 18:15:44 -0400 From: Erik Theisen Organization: Glenayre Electronics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] PC's 16MB SEGMAPSIZE limitations. References: <199808030951.FAA00701@cse.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>I tried bumping SEGMAPSIZE to 64 and the machine became unstable. > > that's enough for me on dozens of machines, with no instability. Sorry, spoke too soon. The instability wasn't caused by SEGMAPSIZE. I guess I applied the updates too hastily. :) Apparently there is some incompatibility between my #9 Motion 771 VLB card and the 9/pc/vgargb524.c hardware cursor stuff. After commenting out the hwgc entry in vgadb the problem went away. Symptoms included black screens of death when resizing windows and/or moving the mouse, sending the monitor into a out-of-sync tailspin, hanging the machine, and frying the local kfs file system. The hung machine and tossed file system seem to be a fairly strange effects for hwgc incompatibilities. I wonder if there isn't a bad pointer in the code somewhere. Any thoughts on this? Thanks. Ciao, Erik From owner-9fans Wed Aug 5 11:48:50 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA05585 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:48:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from dns (dns.irm.r9.fws.gov [164.159.176.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05579 for <9Fans@CSE.PSU.Edu>; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: mark_otto@mail.fws.gov Received: from smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov by dns (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id KAA21515; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:01:27 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.01) id AA902332155; Wed, 05 Aug 98 09:49:17 -0700 Message-Id: <9808059023.AA902332155@smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.01 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 98 11:44:15 -0700 To: <9Fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Re: Plan9 Installation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On July 30, I wrote that I was getting an .bad magic error, and the boot program for the PC installation could not find the c: drive when I started the file system installation. Jim McKee wrote that there were probably problems with my large 2GB IDE hard drive he suggested that I look for an updated copy of the bootstrap program, b.com (and kernel actually), or use a smaller hard drive. Patrick Hacker thought the onboard floppy disk controller is too fast for the software on the floppy disks stored at Lucent. He also suggested I get a later version or the 4 floppy disk set or use a SCSI controller such as the Adaptec 1542 to control the floppy drive. Tom West also wrote to suggest how I could partition my drive. I haven't been able to find an updated copy of b.com and the kernal that is updated for large (>=2GB) hard disks, and would appreciate knowing where I can find one. I have found a older machine that has an 850MB hard drive, and I am trying to get permission to use that. Thank you to those that responded to my problem. Mark Otto From owner-9fans Tue Aug 11 05:34:02 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA04376 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:34:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (root@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.91.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA04372 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 05:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (okamoto@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16364 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:43:46 +0900 Message-Id: <199808110943.SAA16364@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] updated version of ktrans X-Face: c&p4R0TJjYFjk=@bKczo{C sKKOf\&6Uit'm^\>/U$hw>Q$ME8|YGbcfnd`z Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:43:45 +0900 From: Kenji Okamoto Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hi Plan 9 friends-- I made some modifications (version-up, I hope) to ktrans command of = Plan 9 distribution during this summer vacation, and want to distribute = it to others. I named it as kktrans temporary, however, if I could have original author's permission, I'd like to keen the name of ktrans. My basic policy to update this ktrans was not to adopt client-server system which most of unix based kana-kanji conversion systems did though.= This is because Plan 9 has dynamic name space mechanism, which forced client-server systems to trash. :-) This is the same way as original Plan 9 distribution, which means my update keeps main part of original distribution unchanged. Therefore, I think I have to know = the policy of re-distribution. This is not final version, rather just a starting, therefore I have tons of TODO list but very little time tp spare for this. I attached my README.kenji file to show what are new of this version. This file includes UTF runes somewhere to show how to use okurigana in this new version, which means someone cannot read this mail. if so, = sorry). = I need your advice how I could distribute this. Kenji README.kenji (August 11, 1998) ----------------------------------------- kktrans is modified version of ktrans by Kenji Okamoto, Aug. 11, 1998 on = the = original source of Plan 9 distribution. = Newly added features are as follows: 1) have a local dictionary file for translation from kana to kanji which can easily editted by user. The default file name is $home/.kktrans-jisho 2) capital roma-ji input for a word with okurigana, which follows the ide= a of SKK system by Masahiko Sato (masahiko@kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp). If y= ou = want to translate to kanji string "=1B$BikJe!keaQ=03=1B(B, you may = input = "ugoK" and following "ctl-t". You will see the kanji rune of "=1B$= BikI=03=1B(B, = then continues to input "kasu", and "ctl-l" may follows which is ne= wly = imprimented to leave hiragana runes intentinally. 3) simple leaning mechanism has been impremented on the on-memory hashed = dictinary where most newly used kanji runes (candidate) moves to the top of t= he list of candidates. 4) as the starting .kktrans-jisho, you may reformat the SKK-JISYO.S (66.9= KB) of SKK system, which can be got from ftp.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp. The next thr= ee lines shows the short sed filter to transform from SKK type dictionary to= Plan 9. s/\// /g s/ / /g s/ $//g 5) SKK jisho, such as SKK-JISYO.S, is composed of two parts, okuri-ari an= d = okuri-nashi entries. This is greatly depend on the Japanese gramme= r, and okuri-ari may represent verb These two parts work differently in the original SKK system, howe= ver, I did not adopted that way, but rather, a simple approarch as descr= ibed in (2). Here, we have no difference between these two parts, and j= ust = to make easier to read for editting, the two parts structure was le= aved as are. = This may cause some cumbersome input for Plan 9 nihongo users. I know this. However, I intended to keep the codes compact as poss= ible for a first step to develope Nihongo input system on Plan 9. 6) tons of TODO list of course. ^_^ Kenji August 11, 1998 = --------------------- -- = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Kenji Okamoto | e-mail okamoto@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp ______ __ |__ | Osaka Prefecture University, Dept. of Earth Science,= |__\/__| /|\ | Gakuen-cho 1 - 1, Sakai, Osaka 599-8531, Japan ||_|_| | /-|-\ | alternative e-mail: okamoto@upr.center.osakafu-u.ac.= jp | voice +81-722-54-9748 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From owner-9fans Wed Aug 12 08:26:29 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA17983 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:26:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (grande.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA17979 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.11]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06110 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:24:14 -0300 (EST) Received: from dcc.unicamp.br (pinduca.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.24.121]) by amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18572 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:24:15 -0300 (EST) Message-ID: <35D18949.65C9A589@dcc.unicamp.br> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:23:38 -0300 From: Franklin <973930@dcc.unicamp.br> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] Plan 9 RPC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans How could I use RPC on Plan 9? Give me an example. Franklin. From owner-9fans Wed Aug 12 08:54:16 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA18363 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:54:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ns.dbSystems.com (root@ns.dbsystems.com [204.178.76.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18353 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gdb@localhost) by ns.dbSystems.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA08726 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:37:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:37:15 -0500 From: "G. David Butler" Message-Id: <199808121237.HAA08726@ns.dbSystems.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] Plan 9 RPC Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >How could I use RPC on Plan 9? Give me an example. open(), read(), write() close()... This is the beauty of Plan9. File I/O is the RPC. From owner-9fans Wed Aug 12 22:42:59 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA29039 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:42:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (root@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.91.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29035 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (okamoto@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21928 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:52:45 +0900 Message-Id: <199808130252.LAA21928@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] updated version of ktrans In-reply-to: okamoto's message of Tue, 11 Aug 1998 18:43:45 +0900. <199808110943.SAA16364@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Face: c&p4R0TJjYFjk=@bKczo{C sKKOf\&6Uit'm^\>/U$hw>Q$ME8|YGbcfnd`z Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:52:45 +0900 From: Kenji Okamoto Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Kenji again. First of all, please forgive me to write this to this public mailing-list= =2E I tried twice to reply to Rob yesterday, but all failed to reach you with= the error messag of "451 read error from plan9.bell-labs.com" and "Connec= tion reset by plan9.bell-labs.com". I have no other means to reach you, and t= hen, = please forgive me to include a personal letter to you attached bellow. After I wrote this e-mail to Rob, I had some improvement on this project,= and now I believe I'm in a phase to minor (I hope) bug fixing, such as memory leaks etc. I tried three sizes of kana-kanji conversion SKK dictionary (S =3D 61 KB,= M =3D 171KB, L =3D 3.7 MB) , and got a feeling that the smallest size dic= may be enough to write a short text such as e-mail. The medium sized dictionary made me much more comfortable, however, it's process size grows to 1.5MB (640KB for the smallest). Therefore, I think this implementation would be in a good level for many of Japanese text editing as everyday use. Here, I don't image naive users such as personal computers are targetting. This may fit the consept of Plan 9, I believe. :-) The new version of my README file is as follows (I wrote this in JIS code, because I'm now writing this mail on a unix machine, and it does something wrong on UTF runes(learn from the previous fail)). = If someone had problems to read this, please use tcs on Plan 9 system. --------README------ kktrans is modified version of ktrans by Kenji Okamoto, Aug. 11, 1998 on = the = original source of Plan 9 distribution. = Newly added features are as follows: 1) have a "local" dictionary file for translation from kana to kanji which can easily editted by user. The default file name is $home/lib/kktrans-jisho 2) capital roma-ji input for a word with okurigana, which follows the ide= a of SKK system by Masahiko Sato (masahiko@kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp). If y= ou = want to translate to kanji string "=1B$BF0$+$9=1B(B", you may input= = "ugoKasu". Note here the Kasu's k is a capital (important). This = is because the sound "Ka" can be "Ke" or "Ki" etc in Japanese for various usag= es. = Therefore, we need some skill to make compact the size of dictionar= y. SKK's method is very interesting, I believe. You will, then, see the kan= ji rune = of "=1B$BF0=1B(B", when you hit "ctl-t". = If you are satisfied by that translation, hit next word ( or "ctl= -l" = may which is newly imprimented to leave hiragana runes intentionall= y = unchanged). You will see the rest of the okuri-gana like "=1B$BF0$= +$9=1B(B". = If you are not pleasure with that candidate, hit "ctl-t" once more = to = see more candiate for that hiragana inputs. 3) simple learning mechanism has been implemented on the on-memory dictin= ary hash table where most recently used kanji runes (candidate) moves to the top o= f the list of candidates. 4) as the starting $home/lib/kktrans-jisho, you may re-format the SKK-JIS= YO.S = (66.9KB) of SKK system, which can be reached from ftp.kuis.kyoto-u.= ac.jp. = The next three lines shows the short sed filter to transform from S= KK type = dictionary to Plan 9. (you may proceed to make tcs -f ujis :-) s/\// /g s/ / /g s/ $//g 5) SKK jisho, such as SKK-JISYO.S, is composed of two parts, okuri-ari an= d = okuri-nashi entries. This is greatly depend on the Japanese gramme= r, and okuri-ari may represent verb/adjective etc., ie., not noun. These two parts work differently in the original SKK system, howe= ver, I did not employed that way, rather, a simple approarch as describe= d in (2). Here, we have no difference between these two parts, and j= ust = to make easier to read for editting, the two parts structure was le= aved as are. = 6) This implementation of Japanese input method is to convert one word in= a time essentially. This may cause some cumbersome feeling to Nihongo use= rs. I know this. However, I intended to keep the codes compact as poss= ible for a first step to develope Nihongo input system on Plan 9. To im= prove this, we have introduce some automatic mechanism like SKK... I've n= ot decided what would be best for us... 7) tons of TODO lists of course. ^_^ Kenji August 12, 1998 = -----personal mail----- Hi Rob-- Thanks for your quick advice on the philosophical view of Plan 9. I will update my codes to follow your advice, i.e., $home/lib/kktrans-jis= ho = for personal on-line quick dictionary. After I posted last mail to the mailing list, I got two points to inprove my user interface. One concernes on your advice of "default" dic= =2E version. I'm now considering to implement this as a slow large dictionar= y which will be read from HDD on demand. Then, this large dictionary shoul= d have only hashed table of some grouped offset address on memory. If it= = could be finished, I will put it on /sys/lib. For this dictionary, I thi= nk I can apply Ritchie-san's hlook.c algorism with very small change. Another important point to be improved concernes with user interface itse= lf. Last night, when I was in bed, I got an new idea to incorporate SKK's method to ktrans's basic scheme. I'll try it from now, because we are = now in Obon vacation, and I have time, then, I'll do this. By the way, new kktrans can be used to write short Japanese text like e-mail, which was the single reason why I did it this time, although it should be improved much to wrtite longer Japanese text such as papers. Japanese input method is essential for us Japanese who want to use Plan 9= for daily works. This has prevented me to go into Plan 9 for a long time. However, this new update may improve it a little, at least, I hope so. Kenji PS. This mail had been sent in the morning, and by some troubles, = returned to me. I've done to incorporation of SKK now. -------cut here----- From owner-9fans Thu Aug 13 01:05:55 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA00316 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:05:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (root@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.91.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00312 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (okamoto@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22399 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:15:58 +0900 Message-Id: <199808130515.OAA22399@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] updated version of ktrans In-reply-to: okamoto's message of Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:52:45 +0900. <199808130252.LAA21928@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Face: c&p4R0TJjYFjk=@bKczo{C sKKOf\&6Uit'm^\>/U$hw>Q$ME8|YGbcfnd`z Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:15:58 +0900 From: Kenji Okamoto Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans When free() the allocated memory, I got the following error messages: k.out 351: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0xa1bcbde8 pc=0x38d4. and acid pointed the error place at line # 118 in port/malloc.c. What can be the cause of this error? #118 suggests free() got the wright memory block... malloc.c source is too difficult to me to got it wright. ;_; Kenji From owner-9fans Thu Aug 13 01:29:59 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA00580 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:29:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00576 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:29:54 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808130529.BAA00576@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:26:17 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] updated version of ktrans Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>k.out 351: suicide: sys: trap: fault read addr=0xa1bcbde8 pc=0x38d4. that address looks a little suspect to me ... in this case, i'd suspect a bad pointer value was passed to free. From owner-9fans Sat Aug 15 05:13:47 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA29231 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:13:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (root@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.91.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29227 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (okamoto@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00832 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:13:14 +0900 Message-Id: <199808150913.SAA00832@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] updated version of ktrans {JIS coded] In-reply-to: presotto's message of Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:04:24 -0400. <199808131305.WAA05270@elmo.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Face: c&p4R0TJjYFjk=@bKczo{C sKKOf\&6Uit'm^\>/U$hw>Q$ME8|YGbcfnd`z Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:13:14 +0900 From: Kenji Okamoto Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I still has one more problem regarding reading /dev/kbd. In main() function of translate.c of original ktrans, I added two lines just before the line to get mp: mp = match(bp, &nchar, table);. The added lines are very simple tolower() function like this: if (table == kana && (*bp <='Z' && *bp>= 'A')) *bp = tolower(*bp); Here, I expected the behaviour such that we see "か" when I input from keyboard like "KA". However, I got kあ. I;ve read siource codes many times, but I couldn't got success to understand the reason why it behaves like that. I know my brains are reaching to my max though... Kenji From owner-9fans Sun Aug 16 02:02:20 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id CAA05550 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:02:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05546 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:02:14 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808160602.CAA05546@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] a curious process Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! I observed a curious process: The process of 'none' creates a file of 'arisawa'. Does plan9 admit such a process? The program is listed bellow. I have felt inconvenience to kill the processes of none because my system forbids login by none. So I wrote a program that is executed as none instead of me. Try something: [1] done ps [2] done 'echo kill > /proc/524/note' # where 524 is the process id to kill # you can observe that done can kill processes of none [3] done touch x # done cannot create files of none, but creates files of you! --------------- done.c --------------- /* done: do as none usage: done command example: done broke done 'echo kill > /proc/524/ctl' I felt inconvenient to kill processes of none, so I wrote. 1998/08/14 Kenji Arisawa (Kenar) E-mail: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp */ #include #include void usage(void) { print("usage: done command\n"); exits("usage"); } void main(int argc, char **argv) { int f,i,n,r; char buf[256], *s; Waitmsg w; /* --------------------------------- * we combine argments to a single string. * "arg1 arg2 arg3 ... " */ *buf = 0; r = 256 - 2; s = buf; for(n = 1; n < argc; n++){ i = strlen(argv[n]); if(i > r) { /* error. so we exit */ fprint(2,"command line to long\n"); exits("argments"); } strcpy(s, argv[n]); s += i; strcpy(s, " "); s++; r -= i + 1; } s--; *s = 0; argv[0] = "rc"; argv[1] = "-c"; argv[2] = buf; argv[3] = 0; switch(rfork(RFNOTEG|RFPROC|RFFDG)) { case -1: fprint(2, "can't fork\n"); break; case 0: /* set user to none */ f = open("/dev/user", OWRITE); if(f < 0) exits("/dev/user"); write(f, "none", 4); close(f); exec("/bin/rc", argv); break; default: wait(&w); if(w.msg[0]) fprint(2,"%s\n", w.msg); break; } } From owner-9fans Sun Aug 16 05:07:25 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA06433 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 05:07:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (root@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp [157.16.91.53]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA06429 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 05:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (okamoto@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04185 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:07:06 +0900 Message-Id: <199808160907.SAA04185@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] updated version of ktrans {JIS coded] In-reply-to: okamoto's message of Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:13:14 +0900. <199808150913.SAA00832@earth.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp> X-Face: c&p4R0TJjYFjk=@bKczo{C sKKOf\&6Uit'm^\>/U$hw>Q$ME8|YGbcfnd`z Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 18:07:06 +0900 From: Kenji Okamoto Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The problem I asked last night has been solved by myself. This is because I listened great violine music by MIDORI last night, and she refreshed my brain effectively. ^_^ By the way, I think I have done it, and will put this as boddle (please tell me how to make boddle file safely) on our Web page for Plan 9, http://basalt.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp/plan9_doc/plan9_index.html, which is our secret Web page written in Japanese since 1995. :-) This is euc encoded Japanese text, and I will make small English part to settle the boddle file (if I could make it safely). Therefore, don't be afraid of many encrypted lines. :-) The final version (I hope) of README.kenji file is attached below. -------- from here ----- This is a modified version of ktrans of the original in Plan 9 distribution by Kenji Okamoto, Aug. 16, 1998. I tried (actually learned) to keep the art level of the original codes. However, it's too smart to me, and seems beyond my skill. I'm afraid I made it seriously brain damaged. If so, I applogize, because I knwo who wrote the original. My only one excuse for this version is "it's works". Newly added features are as follows: 1) have a "local" dictionary file for translation from kana to kanji which can easily editted by user. The default file name is $home/lib/ktrans-jisho. If you want to use other dictionary file, set the KTJISHO environment variable to point to that file. 2) capital romaji input for a word such as verbs or adjectives with okurigana, which follows the idea of SKK system by Masahiko Sato of Kyoto Univ. (masahiko@kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp). If you want to get to kanji string (runes) "動かす", which is a verb, you may input "ugoKasu" from the keyboard. Note here the Kasu's k is a capital (important). You will see a hiragana runes "うごかす", and then, the kanji runes of "動かす", when you hit "ctl-t". If you are satisfied by that translation, continue to input next word. If you are not pleasure with that candidate, hit 'ctl-t' once more to see more candiate for that hiragana inputs. When no more other candidates are registered in your dictionary, you will see the initial hiragana input. 3) for Japanese "joshi", a postpositioned short word after noun, you can use another method which I developed for this work. If you want kanji string (runes) "私は", then, try to hit "watashiHA" from the keyboard. Note that the sound of "wa(ha)" is express as capitalized "HA". You will see a hiragana string of "わたしは", and then, "私は" after `ctl-t'. 4) a control sequence of 'ctl-l' is introduced to leave input hiragana runes unchanged. This is occasionally neccessary. 5) simple leaning mechanism has been implemented on the on-memory hashing dictinary where most recently used kanji runes (candidate) moves to the top of the list of candidates. This is valid only during the session you called kktrans. This is done so intentionally, because present learning method is ..well... naive. ^_^ I know this, however, I believe you can solve it by making a good dictionary best fitted to your purpose by yourself. 6) 'ctl-q' ends the session when you want to edit your kana-kanji translation dictionary by sam. I chose this only by the reason for simplicity. The dictionary is read only once at the beginning of the ktrans session. 7) change mode to kana-input is triggered by 'ctl-n' but not 'ctl-g' (original). This is by the simple reason why I feel it better for Japanese (nihongo) trigger key. I re-arranged 'ctl-g' to to greek mode. If I'm doing something wrong, please tell me. I know the feeling from Japanese, but not from greek. 8) as the starting $home/lib/ktrans-jisho, you may re-format the SKK-JISYO.S (66.9KB) of SKK system, which can be reached from ftp.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp. The next three lines shows the short sed filter to transform from SKK type dictionary to Plan 9. Before this, you should change kanji code from ujis (euc) to UTF-8 by tcs utility, of course. s/\// /g s/ / /g s/ $//g The header items are sorted in a strange order in the original SKK dictionary. Present implementation does not care the order, therefore, you can change it by yourself. 9) SKK jisho, such as SKK-JISYO.S, is composed of two parts, okuri-ari and okuri-nashi entries. This is greatly depend on the Japanese grammer, and okuri-ari may represent verb/adjective etc., i.e., not noun. These two parts work differently in the original SKK system, however, I did not employed that method, rather, a simple approarch as described in (2) and (3). Here, we have no difference between these two parts, and the reason why I leaved the two part structure remained is just to make easier to read for editting. Of course, you can change it without any side-effects. 8) This implementation of Japanese input method is to convert every one word by one key triggering essentially. This may cause some cumbersome feeling to Nihongo users who are accustomed to, say, Windows. I know this. However, I intended to keep the codes compact as possible as a first step to develope Nihongo input system on Plan 9. Furthermore, I never seen the latters worked perfectly. I think the conversion failed essentially when we see more than, say, five/six candidates for one input hiragana runes. 9) a usage example: if you want to make the Japanese text as below: 私は毎日35分以上も歩いて, 更に10分電車に乗って学校に通います. 健康の維持にも役だっていますが, なかなかたのしいものです. your keyboard hitting stream should be: watashiHA[^t]mainichi[^t]35[^l]fun[^t]ijouMO[^t]aruIte, [^t]saraNI[^t] 10[^l]fun[^t]denshaNI[^t]noTte[^t]gakkouNI[^t]kayoImasu.[^t] kenkouNO[^t]ijiNImo[^t]yakuDAtteimasuga, [^t]nakanaka[^l]tanoshiI[^t] <-- NO! :-) monodesu.[^l] whre [^t], [^l] indicates 'ctl-t' and 'ctl-l' respectively. 10) yes, tons of TODO lists of course. ^_^ Kenji August 15, 1998 ---------- From owner-9fans Sun Aug 16 08:35:49 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA07309 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:35:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07305 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 16 Aug 1998 08:35:45 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808161235.IAA07305@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 13:34:45 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] a curious process Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans the process is still attached to the original name space including the file service connection authenticated by you, not none. try calling newns to clear the association. From owner-9fans Mon Aug 17 14:10:59 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA20985 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:10:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (root@foible.proxima.alt.za [192.96.32.132]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20980 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from foible.proxima.alt.za (IDENT:lucio@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by foible.proxima.alt.za (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03778 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:08:24 +0200 (SAST) Message-Id: <199808171808.UAA03778@foible.proxima.alt.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-to: lucio@proxima.alt.za Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:08:23 +0200 From: Lucio de Re Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans OK, so what's the secret? Somewhere in my configuration of a CPU and authentication server, I have managed to screw up. Now how do I persuade the auth server not to look for itself on the network so it can grant itself access to the fileserver? It eventually gives up and uses its own password, but I dislike waiting for it to time out first. This is not the way "things are meant to be" but I can't figure out what it is that I need to change. Please can some kind soul point me to the right place (the NET db? I don't think I've broken anything in there - the KEY file, how do I remove the AUTH portion of it, without destroying it completely? what is the real address for a dummy auth 0.0.0.1, 0.0.1.0? I have conflicting values in various places :-( Thanks a lot, everyone. ++L From owner-9fans Mon Aug 17 15:39:31 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA22459 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:39:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22455 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808171939.PAA22455@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:38:38 BST Subject: [9fans] auth server to bypass self-reference Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans tell it 0.1.0.0 it ought to be 0.0.0.0 but the code doesn't always agree on it, and ends up taking 0.0.0.0 as meaning no hope at all. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 18 03:09:11 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA29070 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:09:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA29066 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 03:09:06 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808180709.DAA29066@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] 9tftpd Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! Plan9 uses tftpd to help booting. However the use of tftpd on authentication server has some security problems. So I modified tftpd. You can get the new tftpd at my ftp: ftp://plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp/9tftpd/ 9tftpd is a tftpd for plan9 and you can replace tftpd by 9tftpd. 9tftpd follows TFTPD protocols but the use is limited to sending boot files. That is, 1. 9tftpd does not accept files from remote hosts. 2. 9tftpd looks ndb and sends bootf of the remote host. 3. the name space that 9tftpd is running belongs to none. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From owner-9fans Wed Aug 19 23:50:03 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id XAA28266 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:50:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA28262 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:49:57 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808200349.XAA28262@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] /mail/lib/rewrite Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! I believe the following two lines @([^@!,]*):([^!@]*)@([^!]*) alias \2@\3@\1 @([^@!]*),([^!@,]*):([^!@]*)@([^!]*) alias @\1:\3@\4@\2 in /mail/lib/rewrite intend to convert a route address, for example, @A,@B:alice@C to another route address alice@C@B@A However we can experiment: term% upas/sendmail '-#' @A,@B:alice@C invalid address: @A,@B:alice@C term% upas/sendmail '-#' @A,B:alice@C /mail/lib/qmail 'arisawa' 'net!A' 'B!C!alice' I replaced second line to: @([^!]*),@([^!@,]*):([^!@]*)@([^!]*) alias @\1:\3@\4@\2 Then we have: term% upas/sendmail '-#' @A,@B:alice@C /mail/lib/qmail 'arisawa' 'net!A' 'B!C!alice' term% upas/sendmail '-#' @A,B:alice@C Invalid address: @A,B:alice@C RFC821 requires the format "@A,@B:alice@C" for route address, not "@A,B:alice@C". Bug in /mail/lib/rewrite? Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From owner-9fans Thu Aug 20 09:03:02 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA01749 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:03:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01743 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:02:57 -0400 (EDT) From: presotto@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808201302.JAA01743@cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:00:59 -0400 To: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp, 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: re: [9fans] /mail/lib/rewrite Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans # convert source domain address to a chain a@b@c@d... @([^@!,]*):([^!@]*)@([^!]*) alias \2@\3@\1 @([^@!]*),@([^!@,]*):([^!@]*)@([^!]*) alias @\1:\3@\4@\2 # convert a chain a@b@c@d... to ...d!c!b!a ([^@]+)@([^@]+)@(.+) alias \2!\1@\3 ([^@]+)@([^@]+) alias \2!\1 is in our local /mail/lib/rewrite. I didn't realize the distribution had something else. Thanks for pointing it out. From owner-9fans Sat Aug 22 10:22:08 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA02009 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:22:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02005 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07860 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:21:49 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16725 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:09:58 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808221409.PAA16725@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:09:57 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808200349.XAA28262@cse.psu.edu> from "arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp" at Aug 19, 98 11:49:57 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I am making an effort to feel more comfortable in a native Plan9 environment by using SAM under X on my unix system. There are a couple of things which I find a bit awkward, which keep tempting me back to vi or emacs, which I assume are probably symtematic of my not using sam optimally. I would appreciate any tips from sam experts out there. (And yes - I have read Rob Pike's article in the plan9 documents, and also the tutorial which comes with it..) The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I find slows down my editing. Is there an easy way to move backwards or forwards (or up/down) in a file using the keyboard? The arrow keys seem to jump whole screens of information. Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button. I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at cursor' key or menu option. Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more? Is there a way to get to and from the sam window without using the mouse? Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)... Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with my sam setup? Any tips gratefully received. Thanks, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Sat Aug 22 11:28:45 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA02402 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:28:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.core.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.core.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02398 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:28:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com Received: from relay.ch.genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.core.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA11250 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:28:36 +0200 Received: from stromboli.ch.genedata.com (stromboli.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.184]) by relay.ch.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA14951 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:28:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199808221528.RAA14951@relay.ch.genedata.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do > something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of > text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse > when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I > find slows down my editing. It was easy to add the left and right cursor keys to acme. forsyth had a problem with this (and reckoned that rob did too) but I didn't much care. When others asked me for this, I added it. It turned out that I didn't use it much myself. Now I use wily (which has cursor keys by default) I find I cursor about a bit more. I can't fully explain this discrepancy. > Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in > combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button. > I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at > cursor' key or menu option. What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure. > Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more? Try acme. I used to have my profile start acme rather than 8.5, and would only quit to use mothra or 5s ;-) > Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept > commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be > stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my > cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be > accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)... There's the "Send" command on the menu. Write your command where you like, select it and "Send". Or select it using button 3 in acme. > Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with > my sam setup? It's all fairly normal. sam and acme both require a certain amount of "user adjustment" (as does much of Plan 9) but, at least for acme, it's certainly worth it. I couldn't live without wily on Unix having gotten used to acme on Plan 9. Never really had much time for sam, but then I never explored structural regexps which were, I suppose, it's real advantage. -- http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ From owner-9fans Sat Aug 22 17:19:32 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA04204 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:19:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04200 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20869 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:19:24 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18264 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:19:22 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808222119.WAA18264@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:19:21 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808221528.RAA14951@relay.ch.genedata.com> from "Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com" at Aug 22, 98 05:28:35 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >> The mouse paradigm works really well when I want to do >> something that involves selecting arbitrary blocks of >> text, but I find that I keep having to reach for the mouse >> when I want do simple things like move the cursor, which I >> find slows down my editing. > >It was easy to add the left and right cursor keys to acme. forsyth >had a problem with this (and reckoned that rob did too) but I didn't >much care. When others asked me for this, I added it. It turned >out that I didn't use it much myself. Now I use wily (which has >cursor keys by default) I find I cursor about a bit more. I can't >fully explain this discrepancy. > You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of key mapping function I havn't found.? >> Cut and paste is a bit more tedious than just using vi in >> combination with X's swipe and paste with middle button. >> I guess I am looking for an 'insert highlighted text at >> cursor' key or menu option. > >What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One >True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure. > >> Perhaps I should be leaving myself in the sam window more? > >Try acme. I used to have my profile start acme rather than 8.5, and >would only quit to use mothra or 5s ;-) > I really havn't looked at acme. Assumed it was some sort of integrated edit/compile environment that is so popular in the DOS/Windows world, so avoided it. Sounds like maybe I should give it a look. I certainly havn't been converted to 8.5 yet. >> Once there, I find I frequently have trouble getting it to accept >> commands. Half the time it just accepts my command as text to be >> stored in the buffer, so somehow I need a quick way of getting my >> cursor to the end of the buffer where presumably commands will be >> accepted (preferably without more mouse reaching)... > >There's the "Send" command on the menu. Write your command >where you like, select it and "Send". Or select it using button 3 in >acme. > Ah - had forgotten about send - thanks. >> Is all of this normal behaviour, or is there a problem with >> my sam setup? > >It's all fairly normal. sam and acme both require a certain amount >of "user adjustment" (as does much of Plan 9) but, at least for >acme, it's certainly worth it. I couldn't live without wily on Unix >having gotten used to acme on Plan 9. Never really had much >time for sam, but then I never explored structural regexps which >were, I suppose, it's real advantage. > Do you recall where you got wiley from? I will have to set it up and give it a try. It is still much easier to familiarise myself with these things on a Unix machine, as that is what I use when working.. and if I take the time to learn something, I like to have it avialble in all my usual environments.. Thanks for your thoughts. Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Sat Aug 22 19:12:29 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA04949 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:12:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA04945 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:12:20 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808222312.TAA04945@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:02:47 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>I really havn't looked at acme. Assumed it was some sort of >>integrated edit/compile environment that is so popular in the >>DOS/Windows world, so avoided it. Sounds like maybe I should no, acme is an integrating environment -- even ingratiating -- not an `integrated' one, and an acme-like environment is not found in the DOS/Windows world as far as i know (outside the Oberon environment). >What you really want is acme's chorded cut & paste. It's the One >True Way. Didn't Plan 9 sam have this? 8.5 did, I'm sure. mark wilkinson did made the acme-style chording available (nearly) in sam; the changes should be somewhere on the plan9/sam lists. 8-1/2 does already implement them. acme users often have used them in 8-1/2 without realising they are there -- they have become second nature. elliott is right that i don't think all that much of adding cursor keys to a mouse-based system: certainly once up/down movement in non-proportional text is included -- the rules used by the systems i've seen that combine them seem unpredictable to me. i'm more neutral about left/right movement (but what do you do with the selection?). beginning to edit with the mouse is a bit like learning to drive: at first it might seem strange and perhaps even dangerous to have to move your hand away from the wheel to shift gears -- that's a common complaint (especially with manual transmission) -- but it's simple, and effective once you get the hang of it. at some point you cease to notice and focus on the task at hand, the road ahead. when editing with the mouse, there's no doubt that the acme chording rules make it much smoother and more natural. are there better, more natural approaches to editing? almost certainly, but i suspect they don't involve cursor keys, though they might require something quite different from a mouse. From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 01:16:53 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA06908 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:16:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA06904 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au. by staff.cs.usyd.edu.au.; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:16:40 +1000 X-Claimed-Received: from pgrad.usyd.edu.au Received: by pgrad.usyd.edu.au (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07482; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:16:40 +1000 Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:16:40 +1000 Message-Id: <199808230516.PAA07482@pgrad.usyd.edu.au> From: Gary Capell In-Reply-To: <199808222312.TAA04945@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] using mouse (was: ... using sam) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > beginning to edit with the mouse is a bit like learning to drive: > at first it might seem strange and perhaps even dangerous > to have to move your hand away from the wheel to shift gears -- > that's a common complaint (especially with manual transmission) -- One factor that _might_ make a difference is your keyboard. http://www.pfuca.com/products/hhkb/hhkbindex.html advertises a keyboard that's _much_ smaller than most, which means moving your hand less to get to the mouse. I haven't tried the keyboard myself (I think about US$200, which is a _lot_ for a keyboard), but it might make life easier for heavy mouse users. Has anyone tried it? Also on the topic of hardware for more pleasant mousing, http://www.mmm.com/market/omc/om_html/cws_html/mousing.html has some doco on a nifty mouse mat from 3M that significantly cuts down on mouse slippage. From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 06:04:09 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA08196 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:04:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.core.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.core.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA08192 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:04:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com Received: from relay.ch.genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.core.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15321 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:04:01 +0200 Received: from stromboli.ch.genedata.com (stromboli.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.184]) by relay.ch.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA05021 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:04:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:04:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199808231004.MAA05021@relay.ch.genedata.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of > key mapping function I havn't found.? by modifying the source. > Do you recall where you got wiley from? the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/ -- http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 12:01:50 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA09648 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:01:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09644 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:01:42 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808231601.MAA09644@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:52:34 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans last night in a hurry i wrote > up/down movement in non-proportional text is included -- of course i meant proportional (-spaced) text not non-proportional. cursor keys make some sense when things are laid out on a fixed-sized grid (including menu items), which is why they made sense in the vt100 and DOS worlds, from which they were imported into the bitmapped world. >my decision was to make it the null selection. there's also >the question of which end of the selection to use. i chose to >always use q0 (the start), but could see an argument for using that's what i did when i enabled left/right movement as an experiment, to see if it made people happier. the world is still a vale of tears, the weather here is worse than ever, and i conclude the experiment was a failure. From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 15:50:14 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA11070 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11061 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28603 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:50:03 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23029 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:48:24 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808231948.UAA23029@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using mouse (was: ... using sam) To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:48:23 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808230516.PAA07482@pgrad.usyd.edu.au> from "Gary Capell" at Aug 23, 98 03:16:40 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >> beginning to edit with the mouse is a bit like learning to drive: >> at first it might seem strange and perhaps even dangerous >> to have to move your hand away from the wheel to shift gears -- >> that's a common complaint (especially with manual transmission) -- > >One factor that _might_ make a difference is your keyboard. > >http://www.pfuca.com/products/hhkb/hhkbindex.html advertises >a keyboard that's _much_ smaller than most, which means >moving your hand less to get to the mouse. > Might be worth a look - I hate these klunky PC style keyboards. I almost never use any of the keys to the right of the carriage return, so the rest are a waste of space, as are the function keys. But any space that is freed would no doubt get filled, so my mouse would still end up on top of the monitor most of the time :-/ >I haven't tried the keyboard myself (I think about US$200, >which is a _lot_ for a keyboard), but it might make life >easier for heavy mouse users. > It may be more than most keyboards, but in view of how important a good keyboard is to a comfortable working environment, I don't think US$200 would be a good investment it it really was good. At my University the terminals were made in house, and nearly as much was spent on the keybaords as on the screen. If I could by something of similar quality, I would. But I would want good quality keys, with all the important ones in sensible places, not just compact size. >Has anyone tried it? > Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 15:50:18 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA11079 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11066 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28612 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:50:05 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23000 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:38:25 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808231938.UAA23000@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:38:24 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808231601.MAA09644@cse.psu.edu> from "forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk" at Aug 23, 98 04:52:34 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >From digbyt Sun Aug 23 19:04:20 1998 >Received: (from root@localhost) > by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22656 > for digbyt (9fans@cse.psu.edu); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:04:19 +0100 (GMT/BST) >X-Envelope-To: >Received: from TDC.dircon.co.uk (root@tdc.dircon.co.uk [194.112.34.200]) > by popmail.dircon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04008 > for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:02:29 +0100 (BST) >Received: from popmail.dircon.co.uk by TDC.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA11114 > (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:02:28 +0100 >Received: from mail.acm.org (mail.acm.org [199.222.69.4]) > by popmail.dircon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03975 > for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:02:24 +0100 (BST) >Received: from cse.psu.edu (majordom@claven.cse.psu.edu [130.203.3.50]) by mail.acm.org (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id LAA28758 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:53:26 -0400 >Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09668; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:02:04 -0400 (EDT) >Received: by claven.cse.psu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:01:54 -0400 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA09648 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:01:49 -0400 (EDT) >X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f >Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09644 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:01:42 -0400 (EDT) >From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk >Message-Id: <199808231601.MAA09644@cse.psu.edu> >To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:52:34 BST >Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam >Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu >Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu >Precedence: bulk >X-UIDL: 387fb39663bac79bb532d125b36f666d > >last night in a hurry i wrote > >> up/down movement in non-proportional text is included -- > >of course i meant proportional (-spaced) text not non-proportional. >cursor keys make some sense when things are laid out >on a fixed-sized grid (including menu items), >which is why they made sense in >the vt100 and DOS worlds, from which they were imported >into the bitmapped world. > >>my decision was to make it the null selection. there's also >>the question of which end of the selection to use. i chose to >>always use q0 (the start), but could see an argument for using > >that's what i did when i enabled left/right movement as an >experiment, to see if it made people happier. >the world is still a vale of tears, the weather here is worse than ever, >and i conclude the experiment was a failure. > I should probably add that, when I was asking about cursor movement, I was not really asking for 'arrow' or function keys. I would use arrow keys in preference to a mouse if I just wanted to skip over one character in a line, but in general I shun binding functions to these keys on other editors. I avoid PC keyboards when I can, so prefer not to assume they exist, and it is a pain to find arrow/function keys on some laptops. On emacs, I am happy with control-f/control-b/crontrol-p/control-n, and on modal editors like vi, I usr hjkl to move around. Perhaps I could get by with something like having ESC take me to the sam window, from which I could move my cursor and then return. That would still be easier than trying to align a mouse pointer on a laptop in a bumpy train... (although the lack of a standard for positioning things like escape, tab, control etc is another source of frustration :-/) Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 15:50:28 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA11109 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11080 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28627 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:50:12 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22840 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:42:10 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808231842.TAA22840@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:42:09 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808231004.MAA05021@relay.ch.genedata.com> from "Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com" at Aug 23, 98 12:04:00 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >> You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of >> key mapping function I havn't found.? > >by modifying the source. > >> Do you recall where you got wiley from? > >the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/ > Thanks, I will give it a try. Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Sun Aug 23 20:29:55 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA13314 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:29:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13310 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:29:50 -0400 (EDT) From: geoff@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808240029.UAA13310@cse.psu.edu> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:29:21 -0400 to: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] using mouse (was: ... using sam) Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans If you're using a `battleship' pc keyboard or a laptop built-in mouse (or worse, trackball or `glide pad', the instant cause of carpal-tunnel syndrome), I can see why you're unhappy. In my department, we've been trying various small keyboards and mice, with and without wires. We plug real mice into laptops. keyboard(6) does say Caps Lock acts as an additional control key. but some people miss that; it means that the control key is in the same place on all keyboards: to the left of the `a' key. We used to buy the Lexmark `model m4' wired keyboards, which are small and don't have much unused surface area. ~ ` is above ESC. Their main drawbacks are that they are somewhat loud and have been discontinued by Lexmark, though you could ask unicomp@lex.infi.net if they have any left (we bought 20 of their last 50). We looked for successors to the Lexmark and tried the Behavioural Technologies BTC-5100 wired keyboard. It is smaller still but key placement is just too unorthodox for most of the people who tried it. I don't have one in front of me, so I can't describe the layout, but I do recall swearing at it when I used it. Trying to find the F1, F2 or DEL key at boot time within a few seconds to get you into the bios setup screen can be a real challenge. We recently ordered wired and wireless keyboards from Sejin Electron (www.sejin.com). Apparently the standard footprint of wireless keyboards is quite small; I don't understand why keyboard makers think that people would want a keyboard the size of a piano's just because it has a wire running all the way to your PS2 keyboard port. Sejin's wired and wireless keyboards all seem to be pretty small; we ordered the spr-8630 wired keyboard at $42.00 and the spr-8695w wireless keyboard at $90.00. These two keyboards are similar, with or without wire; the wireless ones are black and the wired are white. (Sejin does make battleship wired keyboards; beware.) Drawbacks include too-small ESC, tab and control or caps-lock keys; and unusual placement of | \ ` ~ keys (it's a shame that ANSI didn't standardise ASCII keyboard layout before PCs existed). I only swear at it when I reach for ` and hit ESC instead, thus taking me out of hold mode. We are currently trying the PFU Happy Hacking wired keyboards (see www.pfuca.com). They are expensive, but their virtues include: no caps lock key; extreme small size: only 5 rows of keys with no keys right of Return, for a total of 60 keys; and cables to connect to PS2, Mac or Sun keyboard ports. | \ ~ ` are in the upper right corner, so I tend to hit ESC by mistake on this one too. There is an `Fn' shift key that overloads various keys. Fn and a digit generates the key code for that function key (e.g. `Fn 3' acts like an F3 key). `Fn /' generates the down-arrow key code, and that's a minor nuisance when you want to scroll. DEL and BS (backspace) are on the same key by default; not having unshifted Delete and Backspace keys is the biggest nuisance we've found yet. Initially, the Delete key normally generates DEL and with the Fn shift key generates a BS. `Fn `' also generates DEL. There is one switch, it selects one of four modes; two of them make the Delete key always generate a BS, and that may be preferable. We like the rest of the keyboard enough that we've been coping by typing control-H for BS (an old habit some of us developed because the Backspace key has moved all over the keyboard over the years). Logitech used to make the best 3-button mice, wired and wireless, that I have used since DePraz (the red 5620 mice). Their original wireless mice didn't suffer from `cord drag' but seemed a little less precise than their wired mice, which is particularly noticeable in acme. Since Scott Adams rewrote their mission statement, they seem to have gone bonkers (or are now designing mice for non-humans). They now make mice with narrow vestigial middle buttons, mice with wheels embedded in the buttons, mice with four buttons, mice with buttons on the *side*, mice with the buttons in the wrong order (2 1 3 instead of 1 2 3, or middle left right instead of left middle right), and mice that combine these wretched misfeatures. The number of the buttons shall be three: no more, no less. Judging from their web site, they also now churn their product line like the rest of the PC hardware vendors. When I last looked a few weeks ago (and this may be completely different now), they had no usable wireless mice. Their new wireless mice combine wrong order, side button and sometimes wheel within vestigial middle button. They do usually have one usable wired mouse in their line up, but it keeps changing model name and number and colour. The Mouseman for Notebook is fine but it needs a PS2 extender cable. The `First Mouse' looks like their original mice, but under another name. Beware of the so-called `Mountain Bike Mouse' which has a fourth button on the side that gets in the way and acts like a middle button; I think it has a wheel embedded in the fourth button too. It's easy to spot due to the wide purple stripes and nubs on the side (hence the nickname). If Logitech don't shape up, we may have to find another mouse vendor, though there aren't many contenders. It might be wise to stock up on decent mice if you can still find them. From owner-9fans Mon Aug 24 15:35:44 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA26039 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:35:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA26035 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07728 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:35:21 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29134 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:35:20 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808241935.UAA29134@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:35:18 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808231004.MAA05021@relay.ch.genedata.com> from "Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com" at Aug 23, 98 12:04:00 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >> You mean by modifying the source, or is there some sort of >> key mapping function I havn't found.? > >by modifying the source. > >> Do you recall where you got wiley from? > >the wily home page is: http://www.cs.su.oz.au/~gary/wily/ > The default download version appears to be 13.36, but there is a 13.41 which presumably a pre-release version. Any recomendation which to do for? Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?). The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't come across a Unix version. Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Mon Aug 24 17:17:06 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA27707 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:17:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27703 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:17:01 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808242117.RAA27703@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:07:47 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans >>The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't >>come across a Unix version. it's a shame that wasn't distributed separately. at the time, it might have been available in the AT&T Toolchest, but i don't know what happened to that when AT&T broke up. From owner-9fans Mon Aug 24 21:00:21 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA00218 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:00:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from crux.cs.usyd.edu.au (root@crux.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00208 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.usyd.edu.au (pgrad.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.33]) by crux.cs.usyd.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA04420 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:00:09 +1000 Message-Id: <199808250100.LAA04420@crux.cs.usyd.edu.au> Received: by cs.usyd.edu.au (sSMTP sendmail emulation); 25 Aug 98 11:00:09 EST Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:53:54 +1000 From: gary@cs.usyd.edu.au (Gary Capell) Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-To: gary@cs.usyd.edu.au Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The default download version appears to be 13.36, but there is a 13.41 which presumably a pre-release version. Any recomendation which to do for? Grab 0.13.41, it fixes a few bugs from ...36. Any more questions about wily, send them to me or Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?). The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't come across a Unix version. That covers most of the nifty user interface bits. The main thing I miss is the per-process name spaces, but that's way harder to retro-fit. It'd be sort of nice to have Alef/Limbo, too. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 04:35:46 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA03749 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:35:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.core.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.core.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA03745 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ch.genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.core.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25136 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:35:30 +0200 Received: (from enh@localhost) by relay.ch.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00061 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:34:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:34:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Elliott Hughes Message-Id: <199808250834.KAA00061@relay.ch.genedata.com> Apparently-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans you can get a Unix version of mk from the Inferno download, provided your Unix is one that you can get Inferno for. alternatively you could look at unix.c in the mk source. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 04:39:49 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA03880 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:39:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from cegelecproj.co.uk (ganymede.cegelecproj.co.uk [194.216.105.6]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA03876 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:39:43 -0400 (EDT) From: steve_kilbane@cegelecproj.co.uk Received: from vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (cerberus.cegelecproj.co.uk) by cegelecproj.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20579; Tue, 25 Aug 98 09:39:05 BST Received: from spectre.cegelecproj.co.uk (spectre.cegelecproj.co.uk [172.16.34.71]) by vampire.cegelecproj.co.uk (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA21252; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:39:00 +0100 (BST) Received: by spectre.cegelecproj.co.uk(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 8025666B.002FC101 ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:41:36 +0100 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: CEGELECPROJ To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin), 9fans@cse.psu.edu Message-Id: <8025666B.002F4E03.00@spectre.cegelecproj.co.uk> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:41:30 +0100 Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans On 24/08/98 20:35:18 Digby Tarvin wrote: > Anyone know of any other Plan9 utilities that are available > for Unix systems? (other than sam, 9term, 9wm and rc?). Arnold Robbins produced 9menu, which presents menus that exec commands/scripts in the same style as 8.5/9wm. Not strictly Plan 9, there is the es shell which adds closures, lexical scoping, function spoofing, extensibility, etc. > The mk docs mention Unix compatibility, but I havn't > come across a Unix version. I did enquire about mk's availability some years ago; prices were quoted. I can't find the original discussions (been through too many mailer changes since then), and as forsyth says, the situation has changed since then. steve From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 04:46:39 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA04057 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:46:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.core.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.core.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA04053 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.ch.genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.core.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA25184 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:46:32 +0200 Received: (from enh@localhost) by relay.ch.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA00295 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:42:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:42:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Elliott Hughes Message-Id: <199808250842.KAA00295@relay.ch.genedata.com> Subject: [9fans] 9term (was "using sam") Apparently-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans has anyone updated 9term at all? the version on the net doesn't compile on modern Unixes without hacking, and even then dumps core when text hits the bottom of the window. it doesn't support chorded cut & paste, either. has anyone fixed any of this stuff cleanly? it would be nice to have acme-style scrollbars, rather than 8.5 ones, should anyone have far too much time on their hands ;-) using xterm on Solaris 2.6 because i don't have time to fix 9term is starting to annoy... From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 05:37:28 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA04486 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:37:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailgate.cadence.com (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA04482 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by mailgate.cadence.com (8.8.5/8.6.8) id CAA21467 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 02:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from symnt3.cadence.com(194.32.101.100) by mailgate.cadence.com via smap (mjr-v1.2) id xma904037840.021462; Tue, 25 Aug 98 02:37:20 -0700 Received: by symnt3.Cadence.COM with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:37:32 +0100 Message-ID: <9E919A2F71B2D111877A006097AF45FA6DE78C@symnt3.Cadence.COM> From: Nigel Roles To: "'9fans@cse.psu.edu'" <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: [9fans] Ghsostscript Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:37:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Some kind soul mailed me a mkfile for gs5.10. To my embarassment I've 1) lost it 2) forgotten who it was. I'm about to do 5.35 (beta) and would like to incorporate it. Please send a copy! Ta. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 10:24:57 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA08084 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:24:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08080 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19097 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:24:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05970 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:24:46 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808251424.PAA05970@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: [9fans] X device To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:24:45 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <9E919A2F71B2D111877A006097AF45FA6DE78C@symnt3.Cadence.COM> from "Nigel Roles" at Aug 25, 98 10:37:30 am From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans This is somthing I suggested in a private mail, which I thought I would put to the list to see if any more experienced Plan9'ers could see any problems with my proposal. What I would like is a Plan9 display driver that, instead of talking to a display adapter card on the bus, controls a remote display using the network and the X protocol. Effectively, I want to be able to use my X terminal as a Plan9 console. This would be different from implementing Xlib on Plan9, because that would result in a situation where only X aware applications could be used on X-terminals. If the X terminal looked like a Plan9 device, then all existing applications should work unmodified, and a single Plan9 system would become multi-user in (the Unix sense, rather than the Windows NT sense of one screen per CPU). Also, if the driver were to talk to a window on the X terminal (which could be the root window), then it would be possible to use the same X term to access other operating systems at the same time. Does anyone know if there is any fundamental conflict between the types of access a Plan9 screen driver needs to make, and the capabilities of the X protocol? The other possibility that came to mind was implementing a VNC server for Plan9. That would allow users of Unix/Doze/NT/Mac to pull up a Plan9 system on their screens without having to have a copy of the OS to run.. Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 12:13:47 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA11222 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:13:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11218 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:13:41 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808251613.MAA11218@cse.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:13:19 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] X device Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans I did this for Inferno, which has a different graphics protocol but the same overall architecture, so it can be done. I don't wish the job on anyone; it's a nasty mess to get two unrelated graphics models to function together. I did it by modifying the underlying library, not the driver, although I probably had to tweak the driver a bit; it was a while ago and my memory has faded. The basic notion was to allocate a bitmap on the server for each image and then, for each operation, try to use remote operations to do the work. If they couldn't be done there, the operation was done locally and sent over as an array of pixels. Things like ldepth conversion were the hardest to handle. In the end, I lazily allocated a different ldepth pixmap (?) on the server for each image in Inferno, which I could at least use as a valid source. But X doesn't mix ldepths much, other than having special pattern operators defined with ldepth 0, so any of the myriad things we do with mixing ldepths had to be done cleverly or go slow. I did not use X fonts, but translated all character drawing into already-implemented operations, to keep things simple and portable. Getting all this to go fast involved much trickery and analysis of X internals. The result is barely satisfactory. Plus, a huge piece of the code deals with the psychotic pas de deux of allocating a screen and color map in X. When it came to 16-bit X screens, we cut bait; it wasn't worth any more time. Similar games can be done on Windows, but it's much easier there, at least conceptually, because you can write code that runs on (in X terminology) the server and also just paint data on the screen, in other words, decode the Plan 9 protocol on the machine with the frame buffer. -rob From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 13:18:06 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA12686 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:18:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12674 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09034 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:17:47 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07128 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:03:33 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808251703.SAA07128@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] X device To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:03:31 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808251613.MAA11218@cse.psu.edu> from "rob@plan9.bell-labs.com" at Aug 25, 98 12:13:19 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >I did this for Inferno, which has a different graphics protocol but >the same overall architecture, so it can be done. I don't wish the >job on anyone; it's a nasty mess to get two unrelated graphics models >to function together. > Hi Rob, Thanks for the quick and detailed insights. Did your work make it into the Inferno distribution? Have you any idea if the VNC model (http://www.orl.co.uk/vnc/) is any more compatible with Plan9? I have used it to get a Windows machine console in a window on my X-Terminal (and vice versa), although performance does suffer when using the Internet to access a remote machine in Sydney when using a display in London... Is the Inferno implementation an improvement, as in a re-design incorportating lessons learnt from Plan 9, or is there some sort of trade off whereby both have merits? >I did it by.. > You have convinced me that it isn't a good learners project :-) >Getting all this to go fast involved much trickery and analysis of X >internals. The result is barely satisfactory. Plus, a huge piece of >the code deals with the psychotic pas de deux of allocating a screen >and color map in X. When it came to 16-bit X screens, we cut bait; it >wasn't worth any more time. > Mine is a 24-bit 1600x1200 NCD - hence my preference for it over the SPARCstation 2 screen. It seemed preferable to share one good display amoungst all of my machines, rather than trying to equip then all with usable displays. Even if I could afford the latter, I would have nowhere to put them all. Of course that relies on everything supporting the same network graphics protocol, which fortunately most do, with the exception of Windows (and who cares!) and Plan 9 :-(. >Similar games can be done on Windows, but it's much easier there, at >least conceptually, because you can write code that runs on (in X >terminology) the server and also just paint data on the screen, in >other words, decode the Plan 9 protocol on the machine with the frame >buffer. > Would it be more practical to play with the X server extensions mechanism, to decode the Plan 9 protocol, the same way postscript etc is added to some X servers? Is the reverse easier to achieve - translating X protocol into Plan 9 or Inferno protocol? It would be nice if the Plan 9 and Inferno protocols could converge, and perhaps gain a wider acceptance as an alternate protocol for networking graphics. Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 13:48:33 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA13800 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:48:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13794 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:48:26 -0400 (EDT) From: rob@plan9.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808251748.NAA13794@cse.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:48:17 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] X device Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Yes, the X work is part of the standard Inferno distribution. It supports the Linux, Solaris, and other Unix ports. The Inferno graphics model is now, with minor modifications, the core graphics system in Brazil, our in-house follow-on to Plan 9, but we haven't put the X support in Brazil. It doesn't make too much sense anyway, because Brazil isn't hosted by another system. Instead, we have a Windows-based simulation of a Brazil terminal, using completely different technology than was used to get Inferno running under X. It is essentially the same, though, as what was used to get Inferno running under Windows. Again, the difference is whether you get to run your own code on the machine with the frame buffer. I cannot comment on whether you can adapt X to do anything. I learned what I had to do get my stuff working, and then went to a corner and licked my wounds. I'm not going back in there. -rob From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 14:56:49 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA15422 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:56:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15409 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16648 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:56:27 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08295 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:56:26 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808251856.TAA08295@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] X device To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:56:25 +0100 (GMT/BST) From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >Yes, the X work is part of the standard Inferno distribution. >It supports the Linux, Solaris, and other Unix ports. >The Inferno graphics model is now, with minor modifications, >the core graphics system in Brazil, our in-house follow-on to >Plan 9, but we haven't put the X support in Brazil. It doesn't >make too much sense anyway, because Brazil isn't hosted by >another system. Instead, we have a Windows-based simulation >of a Brazil terminal, using completely different technology than >was used to get Inferno running under X. It is essentially the >same, though, as what was used to get Inferno running under >Windows. Again, the difference is whether you get to run your >own code on the machine with the frame buffer. I assume the Windoze base is just so you can use the vendor supplied drivers for the graphics cards. Otherwise I would think it better to run a real operating system on the PC. Is there discussion of a 'Brazil' upgrade available to Plan 9 licencees (or better still, commercial release) one day? I guess you are asked that all the time, but so much of the industry seems to have stagnated in the Microsoft mire, reinventing the same old stuff, where requiring more memory and processing power seems to be taken as advancement.. oops, sorry - don't get me started on that. But it would be nice to think that there was some hope for the industry on the horizon.. > >I cannot comment on whether you can adapt X to do anything. >I learned what I had to do get my stuff working, and then went >to a corner and licked my wounds. I'm not going back in there. If you can program under Windows then you have thicker skin than I have :-) Regards, DigbyT P.S. The naming of Brazil wouldn't have followed the Plan 9 "what was the last movie we watched" strategy would it :-) -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 15:07:08 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA15842 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:07:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from x.bell-labs.com (speed.x.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.22]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15838 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: geoff@x.bell-labs.com Message-Id: <199808251906.PAA15838@cse.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:06:42 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html). The contents are available on a CD for $495. As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 15:27:05 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA16401 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:27:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from bio.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16393 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 17086 invoked by uid 991); 25 Aug 1998 19:26:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19980825192658.17085.qmail@bio.cse.psu.edu> Date: 25 Aug 1998 15:26:58 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] 9term (was "using sam") In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:42:56 +0200." <199808250842.KAA00295@relay.ch.genedata.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:26:57 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Elliott Hughes writes: | has anyone updated 9term at all? the version on the net doesn't compile | on modern Unixes without hacking, and even then dumps core when text hits | the bottom of the window. it doesn't support chorded cut & paste, either. | has anyone fixed any of this stuff cleanly? I have a version that seems to work ok under solaris. I'll update the bundle on my web page by the end of the week with the source I'm currently using, after checking it over a bit. Beware, I've hacked it a lot, and I don't remember the rational for everything. No diffs on chording, either. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 15:30:14 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA16553 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:30:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from bio.cse.psu.edu (galapagos.cse.psu.edu [130.203.12.17]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16542 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 17185 invoked by uid 991); 25 Aug 1998 19:30:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19980825193006.17184.qmail@bio.cse.psu.edu> Date: 25 Aug 1998 15:30:06 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] X device In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:24:45 BST." <199808251424.PAA05970@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:30:06 -0400 From: Scott Schwartz Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Digby Tarvin writes: | The other possibility that came to mind was implementing a | VNC server for Plan9. That would allow users of Unix/Doze/NT/Mac | to pull up a Plan9 system on their screens without having to | have a copy of the OS to run.. At Usenix, Richard Miller (I think) said he had VNC working in some capacity. Maybe it was in the other direction, though. From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 16:35:33 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA18350 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:35:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18337 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22961 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:35:10 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA08836 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:35:09 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808252035.VAA08836@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:35:08 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808251906.PAA15838@cse.psu.edu> from "geoff@x.bell-labs.com" at Aug 25, 98 03:06:42 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see >www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html). The contents are available >on a CD for $495. As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the >CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100. > Great - thanks. They still carry it, and I have placed my order... Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Tue Aug 25 17:46:22 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA19528 for 9fans-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:46:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.65]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19523 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (cthulhu.dircon.co.uk [194.112.45.202]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27830 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:45:41 +0100 (BST) Received: (from digbyt@localhost) by cthulhu.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09252 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:45:40 +0100 (GMT/BST) Message-Id: <199808252145.WAA09252@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [9fans] using sam To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:45:39 +0100 (GMT/BST) In-Reply-To: <199808251906.PAA15838@cse.psu.edu> from "geoff@x.bell-labs.com" at Aug 25, 98 03:06:42 pm From: Digby Tarvin Reply-To: digbyt@acm.org (Digby Tarvin) X-Face: &(//%&/WHJk7>_lW'@YYeED-qsdBV8&h3_Hpn/0.9_=}vTk}5u/2l=Mx&rX!\.i9X{(S@nk[we'a|IX#|?jmh`(j}a+\C5/> %DpYTPd<7jF2V b[Z.TjttL[FMm_$Z$^#qd62A:T.qw7}0S\o.Or_|I 2t~t0D=eCU"S?ls%(Ro X-Pgp-Key-Fingerprint: 61 E7 39 FE 4A F4 CA F3 F5 5E BB 45 26 EC 36 3C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > >The old AT&T Toolchest is now Lucent's (see >www.lucent.com/ssg/html/toolchest.html). The contents are available >on a CD for $495. As of a few months ago, the ultimate source of the >CD was Unipress at +1 732 287 2100. > Forgot to mention - 'mk' does not seem to be amoungst the packages included. Any chance it is available elsewhere? Regards, DigbyT -- Digby R. S. Tarvin digbyt@acm.org http://www.cthulhu.dircon.co.uk From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 04:19:12 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA25436 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:19:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from mail.core.genedata.com (mentolat-e0.core.genedata.com [157.161.173.16]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25431 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:19:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Elliott.Hughes@genedata.com Received: from relay.ch.genedata.com (pinatubo.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.32]) by mail.core.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28181 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:59 +0200 Received: from stromboli.ch.genedata.com (stromboli.ch.genedata.com [157.161.173.184]) by relay.ch.genedata.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA07219 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199808260818.KAA07219@relay.ch.genedata.com> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] X device Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > Would it be more practical to play with the X server extensions > mechanism, to decode the Plan 9 protocol, the same way postscript > etc is added to some X servers? this is bound to be more painful than what rob did. > It would be nice if the Plan 9 and Inferno protocols could converge, > and perhaps gain a wider acceptance as an alternate protocol > for networking graphics. but VNC goes to show that what the world really desires are Yet More Stupid Protocols. people want IMAP and POP and CIFS (SMB) and the like. it's a common belief in bioinformatics (i don't know if that's the right English word, but i mean "computing focused on biological questions") that their problems are special. that off-the-shelf solutions from the general computer world aren't suitable. so their first instinct isn't to stick their data in Oracle, it's to design and implement their own DBMS. i'd laugh at this if it weren't so prevalent in computer science in general. a variation on "not invented here", i suppose. so rather than have a decent distributed filesystem, we bungle on with NFS, admit it isn't really suitable for accessing our mail, and invent an otherwise unnecessary new protocol. (and hey, let's base it on LISP s-expressions: that'll convince everyone that we're real computer scientists who know what they're doing!) i think i saw an x-files episode where they explained that it's actually a government conspiracy to keep programmers in full-employment ready to be enlisted at the turn of the century when they'll be needed to fix all the vital computer-based infrastructure that doesn't make it past 1999-12-31... -- http://users.ch.genedata.com/~enh/ From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 04:19:34 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA25459 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:19:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk (exim@glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk [144.32.136.21]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25455 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 04:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk ([144.32.136.89]) by glenlivet.ohm.york.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for 9fans@cse.psu.edu id 0zBanP-0000Lz-00; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:19:11 +0100 Received: (from rog@localhost) by talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8/1.0) id JAA11353 for 9fans@cse.psu.edu; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:19:12 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199808260819.JAA11353@talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.2mach v148) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.148) From: Roger Peppe Date: Wed, 26 Aug 98 09:19:11 +0100 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] old bell labs software Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk References: <199808252145.WAA09252@cthulhu.dircon.co.uk> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans while we're on the subject of old bell labs software, does anyone know what became of those old 10th edition programs "dag", "grap", "pico" and "anim"? did anyone port them to plan 9? i always wanted to generate my own pico-portraits... cheers, rog. From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 05:08:26 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA25963 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:08:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA25958 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:08:20 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808260908.FAA25958@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:59:13 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] old bell labs software Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans grap is included in Plan 9. anim's source is still in netlib somewhere (i'm sure i saw it recently) but would take a little effort (probably not all that much) to get going under Plan 9; i've certainly ported it to other systems before, but not to Plan 9. dag was replaced by `dot', which was once distributed under some form of licence at least to educational sites; the university of york had a copy, which i did run on Plan 9 when i was there. dot would be very useful in the Java age to draw graphs of the API hierarchy as it changes. (a copy of AutoRoute-Java is obviously essential too.) i wonder if it is still available. >>i always wanted to generate my own pico-portraits... that's the one that would be most fun, i think. was the original ever distributed? (i know there's a PD approximation.) From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 05:09:02 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA26032 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:09:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA26027 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808260908.FAA26027@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:59:51 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] X device Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > It would be nice if the Plan 9 and Inferno protocols could converge, > and perhaps gain a wider acceptance as an alternate protocol > for networking graphics. it's just `graphics' not `networking graphics'. the `networking' comes by composition with another general facility of the system. From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 05:54:12 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id FAA26427 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:54:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA26423 for <9fans@cs.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 05:54:07 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808260954.FAA26423@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:45:00 BST Subject: [9fans] re: anim Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans ftpfs plan9.bell-labs.com 220 Plan 9 FTP server ready User[default = forsyth]: ftp 331 Send email address as password Password: % ls -l /n/ftp/netlib/research/anim.bundle.gz --r--r--r-- M 647 none none 84681 May 29 1997 /n/ftp/netlib/research/anim.bundle.gz From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 13:37:56 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA06660 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:37:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06655 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808261737.NAA06655@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:35:17 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" Subject: Re: [9fans] old bell labs software Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > dot would be very useful in the Java age to draw graphs of the there's a "dotty" that seems to do similar things and is being distributed free for personal use, etc. etc. from www.research.att.com/sw/tools. i just know it's there; i've never used it. From owner-9fans Wed Aug 26 13:50:12 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id NAA07193 for 9fans-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:50:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07184 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808261750.NAA07184@cse.psu.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:49:16 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" Subject: re: [9fans] X device Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans > The other possibility that came to mind was implementing a > VNC server for Plan9. That would allow users of Unix/Doze/NT/Mac > to pull up a Plan9 system on their screens without having to > have a copy of the OS to run.. Even though > VNC goes to show that what the world really desires are Yet More > Stupid Protocols. it is a neat hack, in that it would be a pain to rewrite most of the window systems (X, MS-Win) to generate any other protocol, be it /dev/bitblt or something else. Instead, what they've done is very inelegant but appears to work decently. I think that writing a VNC server for Plan 9 could be done quite easily, actually: write something to translate /dev/bitblt commands into a VNC transcript of sorts, and then send whatever part of the transcript the client hasn't seen yet. You could run a different 8.5 for each VNC session. The method I have in mind would maintain the screen bitmap in memory (so that, say, if the VNC client asked for the whole screen you could give it) but also kept the VNC transcript. Very little overhead... Mouse cursor changes seem to be a problem, but overall it might be an easier than trying to make 9x work (only because someone already has a VNC X client). It seems like a Plan 9 VNC client would be even simpler: I'm guessing five to ten pages of code at most. The real question is whether VNC actually feels decent enough to use. Is it a good enough hack? I don't know the answer to that since I haven't tried it. Russ From owner-9fans Thu Aug 27 03:55:44 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id DAA22767 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:55:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp (plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.122]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22763 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808270755.DAA22763@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans /* su: substitute user usage: su [user] I felt inconvenient to kill processes of none, so I wrote. Su is the plan9 version of UNIX su. Ref: Much of the codes comes from elsewhere. 1998/08/27 Kenji Arisawa (Kenar) E-mail: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp */ #include #include #include void error(char *s) { fprint(2,"%s\n", s); exits(s); } int writefile(char *name, char *buf, int len) { int f, n; f = open(name, OWRITE); if(f < 0) return -1; n = write(f, buf, len); close(f); return (n != len) ? -1 : 0; } void prompt(char *p, char *b, int n) { char *e; int i; print("%s: ", p); for(e = b+n; b < e;){ i = read(0, b, e-b); if(i <= 0) exits("hungup"); b += i; if(*(b-1) == '\n'){ *(b-1) = 0; return; } } } int readln(char *prompt, char *line, int len) { char *p; int fd, ctl, n, nr; fd = open("/dev/cons", ORDWR); if(fd < 0) error("couldn't open cons"); ctl = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE); if(ctl < 0) error("couldn't set raw mode"); write(ctl, "rawon", 5); fprint(fd, "%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; for(;;){ n = read(fd, p, 1); if(n < 0){ close(fd); close(ctl); return -1; } if(n == 0 || *p == '\n' || *p == '\r'){ *p = '\0'; write(fd, "\n", 1); close(fd); close(ctl); return nr; } if(*p == '\b'){ if(nr > 0){ nr--; p--; } }else if(*p == 21){ /* cntrl-u */ fprint(fd, "\n%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; }else{ nr++; p++; } if(nr == len){ fprint(fd, "line too long; try again\n%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; } } return -1; } /* * authenticate by challenge */ int challuser(char *user) { char nchall[NETCHLEN+32]; char response[NAMELEN]; Chalstate ch; int m=5; /* max trial */ while(m-- > 0){ if(getchal(&ch, user) < 0) return -1; sprint(nchall, "challenge: %s\r\nresponse", ch.chal); prompt(nchall, response, sizeof response); if(chalreply(&ch, response) == 0) break; } if(m < 0) return -1; return 0; } /* * authenticate by password * there may be more elegant method */ int passuser(char *user) { char buf[32], passwd[32], key[DESKEYLEN]; Chalstate ch; int n; int m=5; /* max trial */ while(m-- > 0){ n = readln("Password: ", passwd, sizeof(passwd)); passwd[n] = 0; if(n == 0) return -1; passtokey(key, passwd); if(getchal(&ch, user) < 0) return -1; strcpy(buf,ch.chal); n = strtol(buf, 0, 10); sprint(buf, "%d", n); netcrypt(key, buf); if(chalreply(&ch, buf) == 0) break; } if(m < 0) return -1; return 0; } int authuser(char *user){ char *s; /* check the host where su is running */ s = getenv("service"); if(s && strcmp(s, "terminal") == 0){ if(passuser(user) < 0) return -1; } else{ /* we apply challenge and response */ if(challuser(user) < 0) return -1; } return 0; } void main(int argc, char **argv) { int f; char *user=0; argv++; if(*argv) user=*argv; if(user){ if(authuser(user) < 0) { print("authentication failure\r\n"); exits("authentication"); } newns(user,0); } else{ /* set user to none */ if(writefile("/dev/user", "none", 4) < 0) exits("/dev/user"); newns("none",0); } putenv("prompt", "su% "); execl("/bin/rc", "rc", "-i", 0); } From owner-9fans Thu Aug 27 04:01:13 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA22911 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:01:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp (plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.122]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA22903 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:00:48 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@plan9.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808270800.EAA22903@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] su for plan9 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! Here is a "su" for Plan9. I don't know much of authentication scheme of Plan9, so I used naive method using challenge/response. Let me know if you have other methods. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp /* su: substitute user usage: su [user] I felt inconvenient to kill processes of none, so I wrote. Su is the plan9 version of UNIX su. Ref: Much of the codes comes from elsewhere. 1998/08/27 Kenji Arisawa (Kenar) E-mail: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp */ #include #include #include void error(char *s) { fprint(2,"%s\n", s); exits(s); } int writefile(char *name, char *buf, int len) { int f, n; f = open(name, OWRITE); if(f < 0) return -1; n = write(f, buf, len); close(f); return (n != len) ? -1 : 0; } void prompt(char *p, char *b, int n) { char *e; int i; print("%s: ", p); for(e = b+n; b < e;){ i = read(0, b, e-b); if(i <= 0) exits("hungup"); b += i; if(*(b-1) == '\n'){ *(b-1) = 0; return; } } } int readln(char *prompt, char *line, int len) { char *p; int fd, ctl, n, nr; fd = open("/dev/cons", ORDWR); if(fd < 0) error("couldn't open cons"); ctl = open("/dev/consctl", OWRITE); if(ctl < 0) error("couldn't set raw mode"); write(ctl, "rawon", 5); fprint(fd, "%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; for(;;){ n = read(fd, p, 1); if(n < 0){ close(fd); close(ctl); return -1; } if(n == 0 || *p == '\n' || *p == '\r'){ *p = '\0'; write(fd, "\n", 1); close(fd); close(ctl); return nr; } if(*p == '\b'){ if(nr > 0){ nr--; p--; } }else if(*p == 21){ /* cntrl-u */ fprint(fd, "\n%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; }else{ nr++; p++; } if(nr == len){ fprint(fd, "line too long; try again\n%s", prompt); nr = 0; p = line; } } return -1; } /* * authenticate by challenge */ int challuser(char *user) { char nchall[NETCHLEN+32]; char response[NAMELEN]; Chalstate ch; int m=5; /* max trial */ while(m-- > 0){ if(getchal(&ch, user) < 0) return -1; sprint(nchall, "challenge: %s\r\nresponse", ch.chal); prompt(nchall, response, sizeof response); if(chalreply(&ch, response) == 0) break; } if(m < 0) return -1; return 0; } /* * authenticate by password * there may be more elegant method */ int passuser(char *user) { char buf[32], passwd[32], key[DESKEYLEN]; Chalstate ch; int n; int m=5; /* max trial */ while(m-- > 0){ n = readln("Password: ", passwd, sizeof(passwd)); passwd[n] = 0; if(n == 0) return -1; passtokey(key, passwd); if(getchal(&ch, user) < 0) return -1; strcpy(buf,ch.chal); n = strtol(buf, 0, 10); sprint(buf, "%d", n); netcrypt(key, buf); if(chalreply(&ch, buf) == 0) break; } if(m < 0) return -1; return 0; } int authuser(char *user){ char *s; /* check the host where su is running */ s = getenv("service"); if(s && strcmp(s, "terminal") == 0){ if(passuser(user) < 0) return -1; } else{ /* we apply challenge and response */ if(challuser(user) < 0) return -1; } return 0; } void main(int argc, char **argv) { int f; char *user=0; argv++; if(*argv) user=*argv; if(user){ if(authuser(user) < 0) { print("authentication failure\r\n"); exits("authentication"); } newns(user,0); } else{ /* set user to none */ if(writefile("/dev/user", "none", 4) < 0) exits("/dev/user"); newns("none",0); } putenv("prompt", "su% "); execl("/bin/rc", "rc", "-i", 0); } From owner-9fans Thu Aug 27 10:09:21 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA26885 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:09:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from plan9.bell-labs.com (plan9.bell-labs.com [204.178.31.2]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26880 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808271409.KAA26880@cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:08:26 -0400 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu From: "Russ Cox" Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans a slightly more elegant way is to just always do challenge response, and fire up netkey when you want to use a password. having su accept a password encourages people to type their passwords over the network. if netkey is the only thing that accepts passwords (aside from the boot process), then you only have to worry about training users not to run netkey remotely. i've been using the following for quite a while. i think it's a cross between something i wrote and something tom killian wrote. it accepts a -n option to say don't reinitialize the namespace, and a -c option to specify a command to run instead of a shell. #include #include #include int debug; Chalstate chal; char response[NETCHLEN]; int nflag; void main(int argc, char **argv) { int fd, r; char *cmd = nil; ARGBEGIN{ case 'n': ++nflag; break; case 'c': cmd = ARGF(); break; case 'D': ++debug; break; }ARGEND if(argc != 1){ fprint(2, "usage: %s [-n] [-c cmd] user\n", argv0); exits("usage"); } if(strcmp(argv[0], "none") == 0){ fd = open("/dev/user", ORDWR); if(fd < 0){ fprint(2, "%s: can't open /dev/user: %r\n", argv0); exits("Sorry"); } r = write(fd, "none", 4); close(fd); if(r < 0){ fprint(2, "%s: can't write /dev/user: %r\n", argv0); exits("Sorry"); } }else{ r = getchal(&chal, argv[0]); if(r < 0){ fprint(2, "%s: %r\n", argv0); exits("Sorry"); } print("challenge: %s\nresponse: ", chal.chal); read(0, response, NETCHLEN-1); r = chalreply(&chal, response); if(r < 0){ fprint(2, "%s: %r\n", argv0); exits("Sorry"); } } if(!nflag) if(newns(argv[0], 0)){ fprint(2, "%s (newns): %r\n", argv0); exits("Sorry"); } if(cmd) execl("/bin/rc", "rc", "-c", cmd, 0); else execl("/bin/rc", "rc", "-i", 0); fprint(2, "%s: exec /bin/rc failed: %r\n", argv0); exits("exec"); } From owner-9fans Thu Aug 27 18:05:09 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA07738 for 9fans-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:05:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from pinkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca (0@pinkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.185]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07730 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by pinkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <62312>; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:05:01 -0500 To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: Re: [9fans] using mouse (was: ... using sam) In-reply-to: geoff's message of Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:29:21 -0400. <199808240029.UAA13310@cse.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:04:59 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <98Aug27.180501edt.62312@pinkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans | We looked for successors to the Lexmark and tried the Behavioural | Technologies BTC-5100 wired keyboard. I am fond of the BTC-5100C, although I don't know how different it is from the BTC-5100. One of its sterling virtues is that it's small, which means the mouse can be closer to my hands in their normal typing position. It also has what I consider a good feel. I haven't had any problems finding DEL/F1/F2 in a hurry, but then I use it all the time; people who switch from keyboard to keyboard might have more problems. The BTC-5100C has a few extra keys over a typewriter (the cursor keys, a small top row of ESC/function keys/Numlock/etc), and some useful keys (PgUp, PgDown) have to be gotten at with a special shift key. But it gives you almost everything a full-sized PClone keyboard would have, which is sometimes useful. Downside: it is a PClone keyboard, so the ESC is above ~/` and CapsLock is where the Control key should be. | If Logitech don't shape up, we may have to find another mouse vendor, | though there aren't many contenders. Logitech appears to make mice for a number of workstation and PClone vendors (SGI and Digital, for example), so it may still be possible to get sane Logitech mice by buying replacement workstation mice from applicable vendors. This may be unfortunately expensive. - cks From owner-9fans Sat Aug 29 01:02:01 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA01397 for 9fans-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:02:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01393 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808290501.BAA01393@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] tcp wrapping Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! Tcp_wrapper is one of the neat tools in the UNIX world. Our Plan9 has no special tools to wrap connections. Instead we can do more elegantly using general tool, i.e., "rc". ----------- tcp23 --------- #!/bin/rc ifs=! r=`{cat $3/remote} remote=$r(1) if(~ $remote 202.250.160.* 202.16.124.*) exec /bin/aux/telnetd echo service refused ------------------------- How can we wrap ftp? Probably you will want to allow anonymouse access to world wide, and you will want to disallow user access except a few IPs. This is possible if we have '-U' option for ftp; the option that disallow user access. Then tcp21 will be: ----------- tcp21 --------- #!/bin/rc ifs=! r=`{cat $3/remote} remote=$r(1) if(~ $remote 202.250.160.* 202.16.124.*) exec /bin/aux/ftp -n/lib/namespace.ftp $* exec /bin/aux/ftp -U -n/lib/namespace.ftp $* ------------------------- Adding the option '-U' to ftp.c is a vary easy task. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From owner-9fans Sun Aug 30 22:15:34 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA27523 for 9fans-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:15:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from ar.aichi-u.ac.jp (ar.aichi-u.ac.jp [202.250.160.40]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27519 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: arisawa@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp Message-Id: <199808310215.WAA27519@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Subject: [9fans] listen udp Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Hello 9fans! Does aux/listen support udp? I made udpXXX in /bin/services, and executed: aux/listen udp However this fails. The reason is that library function `listen' (libc/port/announce.c) requires the file `listen' in /net/udp/*/. We can find `listen' in /net/tcp/*/ and /net/il/*/, but not in /net/udp/*/. Kenji Arisawa E-mail: arisawa@aichi-u.ac.jp From owner-9fans Mon Aug 31 00:33:43 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA29168 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:33:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29164 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:33:37 -0400 (EDT) From: CyberKat75@aol.com Received: from CyberKat75@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id GUFJa24520; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <665317b2.35ea2312@aol.com>> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:14:10 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [9fans] hi Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 2 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Get over five million people to send you $2.00 without spending any money! Absolutely no junk mailing or e-mailing is involved. This complete instruction booklet will show you step by step how to reach over five million people for free, how to get them to each send you $2.00, and proof that it works. This simple technique can and will work for you guaranteed! If you are interested then this booklet can be yours for only $3.00. With your package you will receive a phone number and a personalized seven digit code. Your address is recorded with your seven digit code so if for any reason you are unsatisfied with the information you receive, call the number, enter in your seven digit code then hang up and your money will be mailed back to you automatically, no questions asked! You have nothing to lose and everything to gain! Send $3.00 or any questions to: Goldtec Publications 15030 Ventura Blvd, Suite 903 Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 You are not put on to any mailing lists whatsoever. / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / This message complies with the proposed United States Federal requirements for commercial email plus Washington State Commercial Email Bill. for information see: http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ EMailAmendText.html and for Washington State Commercial Email Bill: http://ww.wa.gov/wwweb/AGO/ sender information: Goldtec Publications, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 To stop future mailings from us at no cost to you, please CLICK HERE to send us an email and type "remove" in the subject line. \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ From owner-9fans Mon Aug 31 04:54:00 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id EAA01564 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:53:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from caldo.demon.co.uk (none@caldo.demon.co.uk [194.222.207.148]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA01559 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:53:54 -0400 (EDT) From: forsyth@caldo.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <199808310853.EAA01559@cse.psu.edu> To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:44:44 BST Subject: Re: [9fans] listen udp Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans aux/listen isn't used for udp. the few udp services announce themselves directly. From owner-9fans Mon Aug 31 09:56:32 1998 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id JAA06702 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:56:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from dns (dns.irm.r9.fws.gov [164.159.176.1]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06692 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:56:24 -0400 (EDT) From: mark_otto@mail.fws.gov Received: from smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov by dns (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id IAA18040; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:09:41 -0600 Received: from ccMail by smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.01) id AA904571874; Mon, 31 Aug 98 07:58:00 -0700 Message-Id: <9808319045.AA904571874@smtp1.irm.r9.fws.gov> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.01 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 98 09:50:31 -0700 To: <9fans@cse.psu.edu> Subject: Re: [9fans] hi MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: 9fans Broadcasting your advertisements to listserves at random violates the purpose of these mail groups. Not send mail to 9fans again. If you do I will send bulk mail about money making schemes again, I will check into the legality of your operation. I also sent a copy of your letter to AOL.Com. CyberKat75@aol.com broadcast the following message to the 9fans mail listserve. This group is about operating systems and has nothing to do with the money making scheme your member was advertising. I would like you to warn him about interfering with listserves unrelated to his business. If he continues, you should drop him from your service. I also question that his "business" is legal. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Received: from cse.psu.edu by smtp2.irm.r9.fws.gov (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.00.01) ; Sun, 30 Aug 98 22:35:48 -0700 Return-Path: Received: from localhost (majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA29239; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by claven.cse.psu.edu (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:33:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) id AAA29168 for 9fans-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:33:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: claven.cse.psu.edu: majordom set sender to owner-9fans using -f Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by cse.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29164 for <9fans@cse.psu.edu>; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:33:37 -0400 (EDT) From: CyberKat75@aol.com Received: from CyberKat75@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id GUFJa24520; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <665317b2.35ea2312@aol.com>> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:14:10 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [9fans] hi Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.5 for Windows sub 2 Sender: owner-9fans@cse.psu.edu Reply-To: 9fans@cse.psu.edu Precedence: bulk To: undisclosed-recipients:;Subject: [9fans] hi Author: <9fans@cse.psu.edu > at ~internet Date: 31-08-98 2:00 PM Get over five million people to send you $2.00 without spending any money! Absolutely no junk mailing or e-mailing is involved. This complete instruction booklet will show you step by step how to reach over five million people for free, how to get them to each send you $2.00, and proof that it works. This simple technique can and will work for you guaranteed! If you are interested then this booklet can be yours for only $3.00. With your package you will receive a phone number and a personalized seven digit code. Your address is recorded with your seven digit code so if for any reason you are unsatisfied with the information you receive, call the number, enter in your seven digit code then hang up and your money will be mailed back to you automatically, no questions asked! You have nothing to lose and everything to gain! Send $3.00 or any questions to: Goldtec Publications 15030 Ventura Blvd, Suite 903 Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 You are not put on to any mailing lists whatsoever. / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / This message complies with the proposed United States Federal requirements for commercial email plus Washington State Commercial Email Bill. for information see: http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ EMailAmendText.html and for Washington State Commercial Email Bill: http://ww.wa.gov/wwweb/AGO/ sender information: Goldtec Publications, Sherman Oaks, CA 91403 To stop future mailings from us at no cost to you, please CLICK HERE to send us an email and type "remove" in the subject line. \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \