THM 2005-04-12 Log
D1116534458
Auriel (82.182.149.46)
#! rsc9      before we get into deeper things, could someone tell
#!          me why native awk matters at all?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: because non-native awk sucks
#!          rsc9: I'm trying to do shell redirection from system(),
#!          and it's just anoying as hell
#! 
#! newsham   hey russ, I have a question for you about 9p/auth.
#!          when you read the protocol from the remote I get "p9sk1@domain\0",
#!          but it seems kenfs returns "v.2 p9sk1@..." . What does
#!          that mean? Is this part of the negotiation documented
#!          somewhere?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  yeah, like system() uses ksh
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: it just doesn't work as expected
#! 
#! rsc9      so system() uses ksh. any other problems?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  i thought the plan 9 shell was rc?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: return codes for system are also weird
#! 
#! rsc9      "it just doesn't work as expected" isn't very specific.
#!          okay, so system() is different. other things?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  exits
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: using ksh to run stuff from awk in Plan 9 is
#!          not what anyone would expect(and again, I haven't managed
#!          to get even that to work properly... but maybe I was
#!          doing something wrong)
#!          Major-Willard: yes, exits is another one
#! 
#! rsc9      okay, system and exits. more?
#! 
#! noselasd  I think it boils down to people not liking APE. On
#!          the other hand , it's easy to keep in sync with bwks
#!          AWK :-)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I think I had another one, but now I forgot :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  it's not native
#! 
#! newsham   if you used rc instead of ksh to run system(..) wouldnt
#!          that require more work when porting non p9 code?
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: if I want loonix I know where to find it
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: system() is from unix, no?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  well, on 9 you'd assume rc
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: awk is not just part of ape, awk is a fundamental
#!          tool of the system and should work as part of the system
#! 
#! Major-Wi  yeah
#! 
#! rsc9      e already change little pieces of awk rather than use
#!          bwk's distribution as is. utf handling is one area.
#!          i'm happy to hear that we should use our own system()
#!          and exit() too.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: no, in awk you really need to get into the
#!          shell to do many things, specially in "real" awk that
#!          is rather limited in functionality(and I like it that
#!          way)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I think I had some nasty problem with something
#!          else, but I'm sorry I forgot what it was, I will let
#!          you know when I remember... :/
#! 
#! rsc9      detailing specific things are just way better than
#!          "i made a native awk; let's use it".
#!          otherwise we end up in the cadt model of system development.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, I agree
#! 
#! Major-Wi  i believe it should ALL be native
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I was just a bit frustrated as my understanding
#!          is that awk was treated more as a "unix backwards compat"
#!          thing rather than a first class Plan 9 member
#! 
#! Major-Wi  is this lunix or 9?
#! 
#! rsc9      awk is a kind of middle ground.
#! 
#! uriel     Major-Willard: well, maybe we can get there some time,
#!          let's start with somethin and we will see where we
#!          get
#!          rsc9: yes, I guess it has a bit of a dual role
#! 
#! rsc9      boyd, you can be a purist all you want, but once you
#!          port gs for the 100th time because they released a
#!          new version, you get tired of it.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  awk? doesn't that get used to mk the kernel?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: still, i feel that there is no substitute for
#!          it in Plan 9 world, but then I think Rob never was
#!          a big awk fan, right? :)
#! 
#! rsc9      awk is a plan 9 utility as much as sed is. most of
#!          our awk programs don't use system() so that particular
#!          part isn't as well done. but bwk's awk doesn't do utf
#!          and the plan 9 one does. so there are accomodations.
#!          okay, enough of awk.
#! 
#! musasabi  Making more changes than necessary just makes updating
#!          ports more pain - and that time could most probably
#!          be spent on something better.
#! 
#! rsc9      musasabi: exactly.
#!          jmk is not writing a new installer. as far as i know,
#!          no one is.
#! 
#! uriel     still, awk is not such a big deal, specially if the
#!          issues with calling external commands from it and exits
#!          are fixed; I was just a bit frustrated the other day
#!          trying to get my awk code to work, so I'm sorry if
#!          I made so much fuss about it
#! 
#! Major-Wi  rsc9: ken called me 'an enthusiast'
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, that has been cleaned up, still _someone_
#!          somehow came up with the idea that he was...
#!          (thru some email that no one else has seen)
#!          Major-Willard: I think that quite deffines you :)
#! 
#! rsc9      well don't blame me for that. if you can track it down,
#!          great, but he's not.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I don't blame anyone, and I'm sorry if it seemed
#!          like it, I just think that if the process was a bit
#!          more transparent that kind of misunderstandings would
#!          not happen
#! 
#! musasabi  What I think would be quite nice would be an easy way
#!          to follow plan9 development - what is changed where
#!          and why.
#! 
#! rsc9      this is really what i wanted to talk about.
#! 
#! uriel     yes :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  uriel: i'd pissed off some guy at USG and he asked
#!          ken WTF?
#! 
#! rsc9      as far as following what has happened, /dist/replica/plan9.log
#!          is a great start.
#! 
#! noselasd  Well, if someone thought someone was writing a new
#!          installer, all it'd take was a post to 9fans :-)
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: uh, you're suggesting that no one do work without
#!          first declaring that they're starting?
#! 
#! uriel     I got a list of items I would like to see happening
#!          in the Plan 9 dev community :)
#! 
#! rsc9      boyd: and ken said "he pisses everyone off; don't worry
#!          about it."
#!          (actually i have no idea)
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: no
#!          newsham: but it's hard for people that comes new to
#!          know what is going on, or what is the dev model
#!          who is in charge, and so on, patch is great, but it's
#!          not clear who/when/what use it
#!          it's no clear who decides if a patch goes in or not(it's
#!          clear for us, but not for someone coming from outside
#!          that has not follwed things for quite some time)
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: I dont find it any better or worse than other
#!          projects (eg. cygwin or freebsd)
#! 
#! rsc9      to the extent that anyone is in charge, it's the people
#!          who work for bell labs. but mainly it feels like more
#!          of a collaboration.
#! 
#! uriel     that has some advantages, of course, as sets a barrier
#!          of entry, but I think right now that barrier is a bit
#!          too arbitrary
#! 
#! rsc9      jmk and i are the ones who apply patches.
#! 
#! newsham   in most projects an "outsider" would come up with a
#!          patch, send it to the person they think is most appropriate
#!          and either they would add the patch or not.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  ACTION thinks an applied patch should (auto) mail
#!          9fans
#! 
#! uriel     Major-Willard: not 9fans, but we need a commits list,
#!          I'm going to hack it up soon
#! 
#! rsc9      how about an applied patch appends an entry to a log
#!          on sources.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: it's easy to patch those things on top of patch,
#!          but not all changes go thru patch
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: see /n/sources/patch/applied
#! 
#! __20h__   Boyd, you never joined the NetBSD-cvs ML.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: I know, as I said, I'm going to write an script
#!          that generates emails from that
#! 
#! rsc9      patch/list applied
#! 
#! musasabi  rsc9: what do you mean by /dist/replica/plan9.log -
#!          I can only find /dist/replica/client/plan9.log which
#!          is not very helpful.. (sorry for the stupid question)
#! 
#! rsc9      musasabi: that's what i meant.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: that is not an issue, as I said, it works great,
#!          the only problem is that not all chagnes go thru patch
#! 
#! rsc9      but all changes do go into the plan9.log. if you look
#!          at the changes and can't tell why they were made, then
#!          it's fine to ask on 9fans.
#! 
#! mjl-      musasabi: you can track all file changes with it, just
#!          not the description
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: it would be nice if there was a single path,
#!          and the comments are really helpful, not everyone wants
#!          to look thru all diffs...
#!          rsc9: also it's nice to see who did the changes, to
#!          maybe comment/ask that person... but maybe that can
#!          be done with sources now...
#! 
#! rsc9      comments just aren't going to happen. i thought about
#!          it for a while, but it's not the way the plan 9 guys
#!          at bell labs work.
#!          someone familiar with the source could certainly read
#!          the diffs and maintain a changelog. uriel?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: hehehe..
#!          rsc9: well, then I guess I will try to hack something
#!          that picks up the things from sources...
#! 
#! noselasd  I would be *mad* if I had to add comment to every thing
#!          I change in projects at work..
#! 
#! rsc9      the fact of the matter is that if you care about why
#!          things were changed, then you're already reading the
#!          source.
#! 
#! newsham   is it really needed though?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: but it woud be nice to at least know who did
#!          the change, I will look if that can be get from sources
#! 
#! rsc9      ls -lm will show you who pushed it out to sources.
#! 
#! noselasd  So I actually understand adding comments may not be
#!          "doable" :.-)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: not everyone does, I know many people that follows
#!          the commits lists of various projets, and they don't
#!          reall all the src, they just read mostly the comments
#!          to know what is going on
#!          (ask Oksel)
#! 
#! __20h__   Comments? I don't even add such things into the code.
#! 
#! mjl-      i'm oksel, but under plan9
#! 
#! rsc9      so fine, then maybe someone maintaining a changelog
#!          would be a good contribution, but it won't be any of
#!          us.
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: so if you read through the patch/applied and
#!          miss out on 5 or 10% of the additions, are you missing
#!          that much?
#! 
#! uriel     __20h__: code should be slef documenting, changes are
#!          different
#! 
#! mjl-      anyway, users could easily make commit logs
#! 
#! rsc9      the bulk of the changes come from patch anyway.
#! 
#! musasabi  Usually when following a typical open source project
#!          I just subscribe to the cvs list and get mails about
#!          commits and look at the diff if the message indicates
#!          it is something interesting. Of course one can allways
#!          diff but that is not very nice to look "is this something
#!          interesting".
#! 
#! mjl-      once a simple mechanisme to comment on changes has
#!          been mae
#! 
#! newsham   if you're actively modifying code, you'll notice if
#!          there's a replica/pull that affects code you're working
#!          on and you'll know the code enough to dif
#!          if you're just trying to get a feel for "whats going
#!          on", its probably not that important if you miss an
#!          item or two
#! 
#! rsc9      okay, i think we've beat this changelog thing into
#!          the ground.
#! 
#! mjl-      yups
#! 
#! noselasd  musasabi: But what is the usefulness of that ? It's
#!          "nice to know" bot imo not significant..
#! 
#! rsc9      i'd be happy to have someone maintain a changelog on
#!          the side and email us if they want to know more about
#!          a change that wasn't done through patch.
#! 
#! uriel     noselasd9: it's more significant for people that are
#!          just starting to get into the system
#! 
#! rsc9      switching to patch acceptance criteria (and feel free
#!          to add this to the wiki).
#!          jmk or i apply patches. acceptance criteria aren't
#!          well-defined, but basically i want to see:
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, documenting that a bit would be very nice
#! 
#! rsc9      1. an explanation of what the problem is
#! 
#! noselasd  uriel: Ok - thatks a point.
#! 
#! rsc9      2. a minimal set of fixes, with no gratuitous changes
#!          3. the new code has to look like (style-wise) the old
#!          code
#!          4. if the external behavior changes, document the change
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  #2 meaning to include no whitespace or formatting changes,
#!          yes?
#! 
#! rsc9      #2 yes.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  that makes sense
#!          most other projects i know of have the same requirements
#! 
#! rsc9      if i get patches that don't do those 4, then sometimes
#!          i sorry them
#!          with a note explaining what i'd like to see in a future
#!          patch.
#! 
#! musasabi  as a sidenote would patches adding commentation to
#!          existing code be welcome?
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  gratuitous changes of that nature make it more difficult
#!          for the reviewer to actually review the code
#! 
#! uriel     yes, sounds very reasonable, just what we needed
#! 
#! rsc9      but most of the time i just bring the patch up to snuff
#!          myself, noting what i did, and then apply it.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: do you want to make a wiki page about "how to
#!          contribute"? or should someone else(me?) do it based
#!          on what you said here?
#! 
#! rsc9      o for example i edit almost all the man page changes
#!          that get submitted for english and man page conventions.
#!          i haven't edited the wiki in years. i'd prefer someone
#!          else do it.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, I will do
#! 
#! rsc9      my first letters of sentences are occasionally getting
#!          chopped off due to an acme irc bug. y'all will have
#!          to cope. ;-)
#! 
#! uriel     heh, you should try irc7, seems very popular this days
#!          :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  ACTION agrees with that despite #3, but learnt the
#!          necessity for #3 while hacking the 7th Ed sh
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  thanks, uriel. i was going to jump in, but i don't
#!          have a drawterm open ATM
#! 
#! Major-Wi  yo m4
#! 
#! rsc9      if you create a patch and then use patch/email to give
#!          us your email address, you get email notification when
#!          the patch is applied/sorried.
#! 
#! __20h__   Irc7 only supports one channel.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  rsc9: i think we can interpolate ;-)
#! 
#! rsc9      any other patch questions?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  deletions?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: "saved"?
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  rsc9: thanks for providing those guidelines for the
#!          community. from the patches i've submitted in the past
#!          (before patch), i pretty much gathered all that, but
#!          it's good for the rest of the community to know.
#! 
#! newsham   20h: irc7 is f2f's server/client? if so, you can open
#!          multiple windows in different channels, and you can
#!          still use multiple channels in one window if you dont
#!          bind the window to a channel
#! 
#! rsc9      patch/note saved/whatever-is-there will tell you about
#!          saved.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: seems a bit weird and redundant, just reject
#!          it and sugest put into sources dir
#! 
#! rsc9      saved is for things that aren't going in just because
#!          they don't fit in/feel like plan 9.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, but then why wasn't rio-bg saved? ;P
#! 
#! rsc9      sorry is for things that have been rejected. the intent
#!          is to clean up applied and sorry once in a while so
#!          they don't grow without bound.
#! 
#! newsham   btw, does patch/create work in acme? the first tiem
#!          I tried it in acme I had issues but I dont know if
#!          it was just the long delay that threw me off or the
#!          bits that make it put the rio window into editing mode
#!          (its been too long for me to recall exactly)
#! 
#! musasabi  A simple "how to contribute a patch" example could
#!          be nice in the wiki.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: my point is, why not just let people maintain
#!          external patches in their own dirs...
#! 
#! rsc9      i actually thought rio-bg was the one i saved. i was
#!          surprised earlier today when i noticed i hadn't.
#! 
#! newsham   musa: there's an example in the man page, no?
#! 
#! rsc9      patch/create assumes it can turn on hold mode. it probably
#!          doesn't work well in win windows.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: if the sources "private" dirs are organized a
#!          bit better, I think that would be a much better place
#!          for things that are not ready, or don't even fit into
#!          the main distribution, but that some people might like
#!          to keep around
#! 
#! newsham   that would be good to note in the wiki too. (and maybe
#!          the man page)
#! 
#! uriel     yup, I have in my TODO list looking over patch/*; it
#!          could use some polishing
#!          BUGS? :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  deletions
#! 
#! uriel     but should be easy to fix, I hope..
#! 
#! rsc9      boyd: fix deletions and i'll apply the patch.
#! 
#! uriel     what is "deletions"? sorry, I missed that
#! 
#! __20h__   Patch doesn't support the deletion of files.
#! 
#! uriel     ah, I see, yes
#! 
#! musasabi  newsham: that does not say anything about adding/removing
#!          files (or directories)
#! 
#! mjl-      patching files into existence works
#! 
#! rsc9      deletions are not very common so i'm not very worried.
#!          adding files does work.
#!          i moved some stuff into patch/save
#!          saved
#!          any other patch complaints?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I think nothing significant... I would say that
#!          still would be nice if the labs would use it, even
#!          without comments, but well..
#! 
#! musasabi  an email notification to a list when something happens
#!          could be nice, but by no means very important.
#! 
#! __20h__   What if I want to patch a saved patch?
#! 
#! uriel     (maybe a way to just have it apply automatically pathces
#!          if you have the right perms
#!          musasabi: I will do that
#! 
#! __20h__   There's an typo in the rio-background.
#! 
#! musasabi  uriel: thanks.
#! 
#! rsc9      it can't automatically apply patches because of the
#!          way we keep our internal source tree in sync with sources.
#! 
#! uriel     musasabi: the only thing is that with the current system
#!          I have to make something that checks both sources/replica
#!          and patch... which is a bit anoying as they look qutie
#!          different
#! 
#! Major-Wi  nah auto-application is a bad idea
#! 
#! rsc9      patching saved patches doesn't seem lke a very common
#!          case.
#!          you don't need the check patch. patch is for things
#!          pending on sources.
#! 
#! newsham   so the patch/email thing causes automatic notification?
#!          What about mailing a mailing list as well? That might
#!          be useful.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: one thing, what about keeping public the list
#!          of changes from your private tree to the public one?
#!          (if that is possible)
#! 
#! rsc9      what do you mean?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  like i said, mail 9fans
#! 
#! rsc9      mailing 9fans will drive away all the people who don't
#!          care.
#! 
#! newsham   major: i dont think everything should go to 9fans
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: jmk mentioned in his email that you guys get
#!          an email every day with all the files that are different
#!          in the distro and in your local tree.
#! 
#! rsc9      e're talking pretty trivial stuff a lot of the time.
#! 
#! newsham   but creating a new mailing list (ie. googlegroups.com)
#!          is really easy these days
#! 
#! Major-Wi  look we have 250 patches
#! 
#! __20h__   Not googlegroups.com.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, but it's small things that make the whole
#!          dev model ;)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  that"s zip compared to the spam and other crapa
#! 
#! __20h__   Google is the commercial NSA of the future.
#! 
#! uriel     __20h__: I'm sure nashi can setup some lists in mordor
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't want to make that list public. if we want the
#!          change to go out, we'll push the file. seeing the file
#!          list doesn't strike me as very interesting.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  __20h__: :)
#! 
#! newsham   20h: and patch/applied info is sensitive because?
#! 
#! rsc9      i'd be happy to append the mails to a mailbox file
#!          on sources. if people want to watch it and generate
#!          auto emails from it then fine.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, I jsut thought it was interesting if someone
#!          was working on something that had pending changes or
#!          something, but well
#!          newsham: good question
#!          rsc9: sounds like a cool idea
#! 
#! rsc9      uriel: that's not the way that list works. if something
#!          has changed in our main tree, it almost always goes
#!          out. people working on little projects keep it in their
#!          own home directories for the most part.
#!          the bulk of the files are config.
#! 
#! __20h__   newsham, it's like who cares about privacy, because
#!          they knew already everything?
#! 
#! rsc9      the only two things sitting in the tree that are major
#!          are software cursor support (waiting to finish vbe)
#!          and usb storage (from /n/sources/rmiller, and he asked
#!          us not to put it in the tree yet)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I see, that makes sense, then it would be nice
#!          what interesting work might be lurking in the corners
#!          of home dirs, but I guess that is harder ;)
#! 
#! rsc9      that's things sitting in our internal tree that aren't
#!          on sources.
#! 
#! newsham   20h: i'm not sure what the issue would be with the
#!          nsa (or any other govt organization) seeing any public
#!          mailing list. its a public list.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  deletions? how about the 0 mode 0 size file?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: there is people outside the labs working in vbe(I
#!          guess you know alreay)...
#! 
#! __20h__   newsham, it's about Google -- but that's not the discussion.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: and I know some people interested in hacking
#!          usb storage
#! 
#! rsc9      i saw some comment about andrey having special access
#!          to insider info in the logs. that's not really true.
#!          we'll talk to anyone who emails us. it's just that
#!          a lot of people seem content to speculate on irc instead
#!          of dashing off an email.
#! 
#! newsham   irc rumors are more enticing than reality.
#! 
#! musasabi  rsc9: well most newbies don't know who to send the
#!          email ;)
#! 
#! rsc9      they handed the vbe code to me to put into the tree,
#!          and i'm still integrating it. i'm working on putting
#!          it in aux/vga instead of 9load. if someone wants to
#!          help, feel free to email me.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, sorry, that is my fault, but well, one doesn't
#!          want to bother you guys too much with obvious questions...
#! 
#! rsc9      musasabi: then it's up to you old-time irc hands to
#!          point them in the right direction. or you email us
#!          instead.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: if a contact point was documented somewhere it
#!          would be nice, can we put your email in the wiki as
#!          "contact point"(maybe better 9fans)... which brings
#!          us to plan9-dev list...
#! 
#! rsc9      uriel: people who want to hack usb storage can look
#!          in /n/sources/miller and then contact richard with
#!          changes. he's heading that up.
#! 
#! uriel     I understand that some people don't feel confortable
#!          discusing serious stuff in 9fans due to all the noise,
#!          but it seems that plan9-dev failed...
#! 
#! rsc9      boyd: treating deletions as size 0 files (no need for
#!          mode 0) sounds fine to me.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  well, i like overkill
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: do you think a low-noise forum is needed for
#!          dev discusion?
#! 
#! rsc9      i'm glad plan9-dev failed. i don't like the dichotomy.
#!          i refused to subscribe for quite a while, although
#!          i wish i'd been there to help with designing 9p2000.u.
#!          i think 9fans is a fine place for dev discussion. it
#!          happens occasionally.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  and it saw your can't read it and there's nothing in
#!          it
#!          it says
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, I see, I guess people will have to put up
#!          with 9fans then, the problem I see is that lots of
#!          disucion seems to happen in private email instead..
#!          :/
#!          which leaves most people out of the loop
#! 
#! rsc9      mode 0 files are a pain because you can't even open
#!          them.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  and /n/sources? how does one get a dir?
#! 
#! uriel     Major-Willard: I was going to get there next
#! 
#! rsc9      that will happen on a dev-only list too. the only reason
#!          to have a dev-only list is that people on 9fans don't
#!          want to see the dev chatter, which i very much doubt.
#! 
#! uriel     ;)
#! 
#! musasabi  btw would making a common readline function (basically
#!          the readln function which is copy/pasted in many places
#!          make sense? (just found myself copying the code and
#!          I could submit a patch if such a thing would be wanted
#!          and I knew the correct lib for it)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I thought it was the other way around, people
#!          interested in dev wasn't interesed in 9fans noise,
#!          so they used priv email instead,,, I guess I was wrong
#!          again :)
#! 
#! noselasd  9fans doesn't seem to be the most overloaded list.
#!          Dev discussion there would fit fine, no ?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  READLINE? are you MAD?
#! 
#! rsc9      plan9-dev got created because of the ridiculous amounts
#!          in spam back in july. that's solved.
#! 
#! uriel     musasabi: over my dead body
#! +quintile
#! 
#! __20h__   Boyd, there's no GNU inside. ;)
#! 
#! musasabi  Major-Willard: not *nix readline.
#! 
#! rsc9      you don't need readline unless you want to read a password.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: good, then that is solved
#! 
#! rsc9      if you're reading from a console, read() returns one
#!          line at a time.
#! 
#! noselasd  musasabi: mouse around :-)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  i don't need readline() i have hold mode
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: souces dirs..
#!          rsc9: I documented in the wiki that to get a sources
#!          dir one should email you or rsc(I hope you don't mind
#!          :))
#! 
#! rsc9      the usual thing with sources dirs is to mail me or
#!          jmk and we'll create it. boyd is an exception.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: the thing is that there is no criteria to who
#!          gets one dir and who dosn't
#!          rsc9: that dosn't seem fair to me
#! 
#! musasabi  rsc9: but I don't want to assume stdin is a console
#!          - and the existing code seems read one char at a time
#!          till it gets to the end of the line..
#! 
#! uriel     (actually it seems plain stupid to me0
#! 
#! rsc9      jmk wasn't feeling very kind when boyd asked.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: well, are you feeling more kind today? :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  rsc9: should be a fortune "<rsc9> the usual thing with
#!          sources dirs is to mail me or jmk and we'll create
#!          it. boyd is an exception."
#! 
#! rsc9      ;-)
#!          i'll make boyd a directory but first i want to put
#!          all the directories in a subdirectory
#!          instead of the root.
#! 
#! uriel     I personally would be upset if someone that has done
#!          so much for Plan 9 was left out, I think it's just
#!          _wrong_; boyd might be a difficult person, but that
#!          is no excuse not to let him contribute
#! 
#! rsc9      choices for names? /n/sources/users/foo? /n/sources/userstuff/foo?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: contrib?
#! 
#! rsc9      i'm not getting into a discussion about boyd.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  usr
#! 
#! rsc9      there's already a contrib.
#!          usr is home directories which these aren't.
#! 
#! __20h__   home :P
#! 
#! Major-Wi  they sort of are
#! 
#! rsc9      contrib is good.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, that needs to be cleaned up a bit, there
#!          is "contrib", "extras" "cvs", ... and so on, quite
#!          messy..
#! 
#! mjl-      there already is a contrib... yeah
#! 
#! quintile  community ?
#! 
#! Major-Wi  no
#! 
#! uriel     quintile: too long :)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  contrib
#! 
#! musasabi  users and contrib sound nice.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  or wip
#! 
#! uriel     vt3 and I volunter to keep an index of the stuff in
#!          contrib then
#! 
#! rsc9      great.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: some guidelines for how to use sources dirs,
#!          similar to the ones you gave for patch would be very
#!          apreciated
#!          (mostly to keep some order)
#! 
#! __20h__   What's the 9grid dir for?
#! 
#! uriel     (and I guess somethign like http://plan9.bell-labs.com/9grid/AUP.html
#!          can be linked from the wiki)
#!          __20h__: good question
#! 
#! noselasd  Ick. did irc7 swallow a line of mine :-
#! 
#! uriel     (and links into my next question, that is what is up
#!          with *.grid.bell-labs.com.)
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey.
#! 
#! __20h__   Ok.
#! 
#! rsc9      okay, i created stuff in /n/sources/contrib. please
#!          move your fiels.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: what about *.grid.bell-labs.com then? quintile
#!          said it's still up and running, but there is no way
#!          to get new accounts?
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey.
#!          i believe new accounts only go to people contributing
#!          resources. but i know nothing. it's presotto and ron's
#!          baby, and it's mostly stalled.
#! 
#! uriel     ok, will do then, I thought he didn't know as he was
#!          around when it was discused
#!          well, I was asking because all the other 9grid.??-s
#!          poping up over the wrold..
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't know anything.
#! 
#! uriel     OK, I will nag f2f when he is back :)
#!          rsc9: about p9p and merging the docs..
#! 
#! rsc9      about sources/contrib, it's for posting software for
#!          plan 9 users. if you use up too much disk or post crap
#!          we'll probably do something.
#! 
#! uriel     Oksel: and I ahve looked at it, and it looks nasty..
#!          the changes are too many and too hard to check which
#!          ones should go and with ones are p9p specific..
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  rsc9: the perms on my dir in contrib are incorrect
#!          :-)
#! 
#! rsc9      fixed
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  thx
#! 
#! Major-Wi  methinks one dir is missing
#! 
#! uriel     my proposal is to merge both documentation, and have
#!          an extra section for p9p specific pages, and an extra
#!          section inside pages that are different documenting
#!          the diferences for p9p
#! 
#! rsc9      no.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, but I tell you, merging back and forth is
#!          unpractical..
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't want p9p to pollute the main distribution.
#!          changes aren't frequent enough to merit that.
#! 
#! uriel     I think that you will find it harder and harder to
#!          keep them in sync...
#! 
#! rsc9      if we can get them in sync to start, then keeping them
#!          in sync is easy.
#! 
#! uriel     well, if people wants to start working on the Plan
#!          9 docs, how will you merge back? it goes both ways..
#!          rsc9: it's hard for people that might have access to
#!          one but not the other
#! 
#! rsc9      i know when the last time i merged was, and occasionally
#!          i run diff to see what's happened on sources in the
#!          last (say) 3 months and then do it that way.
#!          everyone has access to the dump on sources and to the
#!          cvs history for p9p. both let you diff by date.
#!          the trick is getting them up to date.
#!          that is, in sync the first time.
#!          regardless of what solution we decide on going forward,
#!          that initial work needs to happen.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, we will try, but seems like a tedious and
#!          futile task from our POV..
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't see why it's hard to figure out, given some
#!          diffs, whether they apply to plan 9.
#!          the way i see it is this.
#!          the goal is to bring the plan 9 man pages up to date.
#!          i already identified some places
#!          where they were out of date and fixed it in p9p when
#!          i did the initial p9p man pages.
#!          diffing p9p and plan 9 man pages just points out some
#!          places where you need to update the plan 9 pages.
#!          i'm not saying you should diff the pages that have
#!          changed dramatically, like intro(1)
#! 
#! uriel     yes, but some times it's hard to tell..
#! 
#! mjl-      i've only looked at acid, and it's a bit of a problem
#!          that i've never used it beyond lstk()
#!          so a bit hard to know what applies to both now
#! 
#! uriel     you have to actually look thru the diff to see which
#!          changes are p9p only and which are p9...
#! 
#! mjl-      since i also don't use the p9p version
#! 
#! rsc9      acid is a tough one. i'd skip acid.
#! 
#! mjl-      guess that's a problem of too little experience...
#!          ok
#!          will look further then. already have some scripts that
#!          show diffs btw (if anyone wants them)
#! 
#! rsc9      if you diff all the pages and make a big file with
#!          all the diffs, you should be able to pick out the easy
#!          ones.
#!          once you do the easy ones, feel free to email me to
#!          ask about the hard ones.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: another advantage of keeping a single copy of
#!          the docs is that the implementation differences are
#!          clearly documented somewhere, that way they can be
#!          keept track of, and hopefully be reduced to a minimun
#!          over time
#! 
#! rsc9      i agree with you in principle. eventually i'll probably
#!          use cvs branches so that the p9p cvs is essentially
#!          keeping track of the diffs between the two.
#!          of course, it's naive to believe that all the implementation
#!          differences expose themselves in documentation.
#! 
#! uriel     ACTION would recomend using something other than cvs
#!          to keep track of branches, but that is a detail ;)
#!          rsc9: yes, but it's better to try to keep track of
#!          them than just ignore them
#! 
#! newsham   whats wrong with cvs branches?
#! 
#! __20h__   dho did some sort of new "cvs" -- no code yet.
#! 
#! rsc9      let's not talk about version control. more cadt crap.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: merging patches back and forth from on branch
#!          to another is quite nasty
#!          rsc9: yes :)
#! 
#! rsc9      i'm not a power user so cvs is fine. and i know how
#!          to use it, crappy though it is.
#! 
#! mjl-      rsc9: that's what i was trying with acid too (looking
#!          into the code)
#! 
#! newsham   <- likes CVS and their branch management (overall,
#!          some complaints of course)
#! 
#! rsc9      don't try to diff the acid code.
#! 
#! mjl-      will do that when writing docs (which is why i come
#!          up with these usage patches ;))
#! 
#! newsham   20h: have you guys looked at larch/arch ?
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: you are crazy ;P
#! 
#! mjl-      arch... bazaar... yay
#! 
#! noselasd  Oh - SCM fest. (/me brings the popcorn) ( *SIGH*)
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: I have, lets leave it for antoher time
#! 
#! rsc9      brb. have fun talking about version control.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: no, no, we gave up already!
#! 
#! mjl-      will go for a snack :)
#! 
#! uriel     ^_^
#! 
#! __20h__   newsham, It's not my idea. Replica and Patch is enough
#!          for me.
#! 
#! noselasd  Please. cvs vs whater. Insignificant.
#! 
#! newsham   arch has some nice properties (and seems to be tool
#!          oriented)
#! 
#! noselasd  whatever*
#! 
#! musasabi  arch is quite complex etc
#! 
#! musasabi  point.
#!          rsc9: So refactoring copy-paste code into common code
#!          is generally not a desirable change?
#! 
#! __20h__   And who implements metadata in 9p? :P
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: we can argue over arch anothter time, lets
#!          not scare rsc9 off ;)
#! 
#! newsham   i have nothing to argue about..
#! 
#! rsc9      back
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: sorry, my english sucks, I mean "discus"
#! 
#! rsc9      musasabi: don't understand the question
#!          oh, if you're talking about readline, you should be
#!          able to call read.
#!          how often do you read passwords anyway?
#! 
#! musasabi  rsc9: readline (readln and probably other names), e{malloc,free,realloc}
#!          and probably others.
#! 
#! __20h__   auth_proxy();
#! 
#! uriel     you could use a gui app for reading pass...
#! 
#! __20h__   Factotum does the password management.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: it would be interesting to know more of what
#!          are your plans for p9p
#!          __20h__: yup
#! 
#! mjl-      emalloc and stuff has already been discussed, read
#!          the archives
#! 
#! rsc9      i don't really have plans. as i need more software,
#!          i convert it. but i'm at a stable point now.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I guess I was thinking more from the POV of bringing
#!          both code-bases closer..
#! 
#! __20h__   dtLinux - stable
#! 
#! uriel     (I have heard rumours that the venti code in p9p is
#!          more uptodate than in p9...)
#! 
#! rsc9      one thing on the horizon is adding a c front end compiler
#!          so that the sources look more the same.
#!          the sources already look almost identical (acme is
#!          the big exception but even those changes are simple
#!          if tedious)
#! 
#! newsham   c->c ?
#! 
#! rsc9      yes
#! 
#! musasabi  mjl-: actually I was the one proposing it in the archives
#!          ;)
#! 
#! rsc9      http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/venti
#! 
#! uriel     yes, that is a problem, hopefully I will get charless
#!          to fix up kencc some time this century and the OpenBSD
#!          guys will take care of the porting
#! 
#! rsc9      no no no. i am not putting a real compiler in. just
#!          c->c.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: just curious, why not?
#! -pperez  
#! 
#! musasabi  8c can be compiled on *nix, but the output is just
#!          not very usable.
#! 
#! --------- 5 mins
#! 
#! rsc9      because porting a compiler requires making it work
#!          with all the system libraries and the like. it's too
#!          much work.
#!          the p9p goal is to play well with unix.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I see your point, still I hope some day someone
#!          does it
#! 
#! quintile  rsc9: the new venti include auth?
#! 
#! newsham   musasabi: wouldn't be that hard to fix it to emit useable
#!          (ie. elf) binaries (some arches already have a linker
#!          flag)
#! 
#! rsc9      besides, who really wants to keep up with all the library
#!          conventions on sunos.
#!          emitting elf is easy. emitting useful debugging is
#!          much harder.
#!          i have an 8c that can create hello, world.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  ELF -- yuk
#! 
#! newsham   blah dwarf.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I'd be interested in seeing that(even if trivial)
#! 
#! rsc9      i have yet to hear a good idea about how to do auth
#!          in venti.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: what about the venti rewrite
#!          (which I found out about by reading the notes file
#!          in rejected patches....)
#! 
#! rsc9      i'm in the middle of rewriting venti. it's a lot faster,
#!          perhaps a little buggier, and needs a bit of cleanup
#!          before it will be ready for prime time.
#!          any other projects people care about?
#! 
#! newsham   wouldnt even a very limited amount of auth be significantly
#!          better than no auth?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: just curious, but don't you think that this kinds
#!          of cases the Open Source mantra of "release early,
#!          release often", could help?
#! 
#! noselasd  What projects are there - (at the labs , if any) ?
#! 
#! rsc9      newsham: let's postpone the venti auth. i can't do
#!          multiple conversations.
#! 
#! newsham   ok
#! 
#! Major-Wi  i have a cool idea for venti, but it's an expensive
#!          venture
#! 
#! quintile  projects - cross domain auth between servers (for a
#!          grid).
#! 
#! Major-Wi  too complex
#! 
#! rsc9      uriel: release early, release often only works if you
#!          have time to keep up with the submitted changes. i'm
#!          focusing on something other than venti.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, I thought it could help with testing, and
#!          maybe someone could pick up if you dont' have the time
#!          to maintain/finish it, but well..
#! 
#! rsc9      the venti code is available if you want to hack on
#!          it. it's in the same place as plan 9 ports. module
#!          name is venti instead of plan9.
#! 
#! uriel     quintile: I think that was discused at OSDI and rejected,
#!          the current model seems good enough, otherwise I would
#!          recomend you to talk with charles about the Inferno
#!          auth model..
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: so far nobody's really picked up ron's xen stuff
#!          if you're looking for stuff to pick up...
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, thanks
#!          newsham: I know, I'm not saying that it will hapen,
#!          I'm just saying that it costs nothing to give people
#!          a chance
#! 
#! quintile  uriel: yep, just interested in russ's opinion.
#! 
#! rsc9      lucho helped me find some things. he emailed me.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: didn't kuroneko pick up your spark code?
#! 
#! __20h__   Are there plans to have more than the PC-distribution?
#! 
#! rsc9      as for venti auth, it's just not a priority.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: and didn't ericvh pick up v9fs even if after
#!          some years?
#! 
#! newsham   uriel: so far three people have approached me interested
#!          in sparc v8 stuff. I dont really know what has become
#!          of their work.. they may still be working on it.
#! 
#! rsc9      calling it a pc distribution is a little misleading.
#!          it's a full distribution, it just only installs on
#!          pcs.
#! 
#! uriel     newsham: the thing is that maybe you get something
#!          useful out of it, maybe not, but the chance is worth
#!          it, I think,
#!          anyway, just to be anoying, what about 9load... ;P
#! 
#! rsc9      what about it?
#! 
#! uriel     is someone working on it?
#! 
#! rsc9      as far as i know, not much is happening with 9load.
#! 
#! uriel     I also have heard(from third hand) of a rewrite of
#!          9load..
#! 
#! rsc9      vbe support got contributed for 9load, though i plan
#!          to move it out.
#!          jmk is working on an amd64 port, which includes cleaning
#!          up 9load some, but it's not a from-scratch rewrite.
#! 
#! uriel     ok, I guess that leave us free to fix the anoying IDE
#!          handling... :)
#! 
#! rsc9      what annoying ide handling?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: any chances we will get any of that cleaning
#!          up?
#! 
#! rsc9      any of what?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: if you don't have your ide devices in the right
#!          magic convination it wont work
#! 
#! rsc9      huh?
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: 9load clean up...
#!          rsc9: ever tries to install having your CD-ROM as secondary
#!          master?
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  yeah
#! 
#! rsc9      the 9load cleanup will come out when the amd64 port
#!          is ready. i believe the changes to 9load are pretty
#!          minimal so don't worry about it.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: its' a very commonly reported problem
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  i do it all the time
#! 
#! rsc9      does the kernel work in that situation?
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  sure does
#! 
#! noselasd  uriel: works fine. You just need to type the magic
#!          sdD1!... and so on :-)
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: it should, I would say... but IIRC it has also
#!          some problems
#!          noselasd9: nope
#! 
#! rsc9      ide probing is black magic. the sdata there is supposed
#!          to be similar to the sdata in the kernel (dma is yanked
#!          out), so feel free to compare and fix.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  all you have to do is specify a different drive to
#!          load the kernel and the root fs
#! 
#! noselasd  uriel: funny, cause I did that yesterday though..
#! 
#! uriel     noselasd9: it doesn't work, and I have gone thru that
#!          problem at least three different times, the people
#!          at the 9con can tell you, we were a room packed with
#!          plan9 users and no one could get it to work until we
#!          changed the ide config
#! 
#! newsham   m4d: isnt that because of the plan9.ini, not the 9load?
#! 
#! rsc9      ide probing is black magic. some systems have buggy
#!          bioses too.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  newsham: iirc, yes
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: yes, that too :(
#! 
#! rsc9      if you want to go after this bug and fix it, please
#!          do. trust me -- it won't go away on its own.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  ide probing is indeeed black magic. i've seen some
#!          really bizarre stuff
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: ok, thanks
#!          drawterm..
#!          who maintains it? f2f says he doesn't, even if he does...
#! 
#! rsc9      i hate drawterm. andrey is doing a good job maintaining
#!          the 9p1 drawterm.
#! 
#! uriel     I hate dt too, but it's a fact of life..
#! 
#! rsc9      brucee is busy with other stuff though i think he might
#!          have a good 9p2000 drawterm at some point.
#!          dt2k is worth using, and if it didn't crash once in
#!          a while i'd install it.
#!          eventually i want to replace drawterm with a collection
#!          of programs in plan9port.
#! 
#! uriel     would be nice if f2f's changes were in the main distro,
#!          and handled with patch, but f2f won't do it because
#!          he says "I'm not the maintainer", so he basically maintains
#!          a fork
#! 
#! rsc9      but progress is slow. i do have ssl working though.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: where is dt2k?
#!          ACTION has never seen it, but I know f2f has got the
#!          code for some ancient version of it somewhere..
#! 
#! f2f       if you notice, uriel, the binaries have disappeared
#!          from the main distro with a small note pointing to
#!          ucalgary.
#! 
#! uriel     f2f: ah, that is new, and I don't like it, but well...
#! 
#! f2f       i think rsc just doesn't want that mess in p9
#! 
#! uriel     would be nice to have it in sources at least
#!          contrib/f2f?
#! 
#! f2f       i'm fine with ucalgary until a better replacement comes.
#!          this is where the dt2k code is too, at least the latest
#!          version i have
#! 
#! rsc9      andrey is in the drawterm group now.
#! 
#! uriel     cool
#! 
#! f2f       rsc, do you want me to merge the dt changes?
#! 
#! rsc9      the 9p1 changes? yes.
#! 
#! f2f       ok, will do
#! 
#! rsc9      brucee is swamped with other work. he won't mind.
#! 
#! uriel     ACTION would like to know more about dt2k and what
#!          is going on with it :)
#! 
#! f2f       but i'll keep the binaries on the web
#! 
#! rsc9      dt2k works well enough that i use it every day to apply
#!          patches.
#!          it crashes occasionally (some x problem) and i restart
#!          it.
#!          i never got around to a windows port.
#!          i don't believe it's the right approach so i am loathe
#!          to spend time debugging it.
#!          yes please keep binaries on the web.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I think I know many people that would apreciate
#!          dt2k even without windoze port
#!          (and I know others that might fix the windoze port)
#! 
#! rsc9      google the 9fans archives for dt2k. i put it out there.
#! 
#! uriel     ok, that is the latest version then?
#! 
#! rsc9      sure.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  drawterm is pretty solid
#! 
#! uriel     ok, will do..
#! 
#! f2f       http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/dt2k.tgz
#! 
#! uriel     f2f: that is the latest version too?
#! 
#! f2f       i got this from skip and made it compile cleanly under
#!          X
#! 
#! uriel     I see...
#! 
#! f2f       that's the latest i've heard about
#! 
#! rsc9      do you use it? does it crash?
#! 
#! f2f       it crashes, yes. i don't use it because the alpha blending
#!          is messed up (BGR vs RGB i believe)
#!          and it's a bit slower
#! 
#! axelB     (what about "replace drawterm with a collection of
#!          programs in plan9port" and windows?)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  BGR?
#! 
#! rsc9      what about it?
#! 
#! uriel     axelB: ah, fuck windows! (sorry, could not restis ;P)
#! 
#! axelB     just wondering. p9p doesn't do windows, I thought
#! 
#! noselasd  uriel: can you ever ? :)
#! 
#! uriel     noselasd9: if you knew...
#! 
#! rsc9      eventually plan9port will work on windows. don't care
#!          enough right now. very happy with my mac.
#! 
#! axelB     ok. fine
#! 
#! __20h__   Cygwin?
#! 
#! uriel     axelB: buy a mac mini, they are cheap ;)
#! 
#! Major-Wi  err, p9p port to windows is a major, hideous task
#! 
#! rsc9      it's not any more work than the original unix work.
#!          i've done it before.
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  i miss the mac i had for my previous job
#! 
#! uriel     I guess another issue is p9p integration with v9fs
#!          and similar, but without eric or lucho around I think
#!          better leave that for other time
#! 
#! rsc9      my position is that p9p will not become dependent on
#!          v9fs -- it needs to work on systems without v9fs --
#!          but i'm perfectly happy if lucho and eric need hooks.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: sounds reasonable..
#! 
#! rsc9      we put one hook in already. auth_proxy tries to open
#!          /mnt/factotum/* before switching to the p9p factotum
#!          socket.
#! 
#! musasabi  Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection
#!          agains multiple #includes ? (stdio.h mainly - some
#!          headers have function prototypes with FILE* and making
#!          sure stdio.h is included just once adds many trivial
#!          (unnecessary) changes.
#! 
#! uriel     musasabi: that is a well known one, use sane headers
#! 
#! rsc9      don't include headers twice.
#! 
#! uriel     exactly
#! 
#! rsc9      if you're compiling legacy code, then use ape. the
#!          ape stdio.h is protected.
#! 
#! uriel     musasabi: feel free to add to the faq
#!          rsc9: BTW, could you update the running version of
#!          the wiki, I really need it to make the FAQ page useable..
#! 
#! Major-Wi  Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection
#!          agains multiple #includes ? -- YES, YOU are 'sposed
#!          to get that right
#! 
#! musasabi  ACTION uses the "not my code" and "uriel will flame
#!          me to death for APE" arguments.
#! 
#! rsc9      google for "follow the simple rule" pike
#!          if it's not your code, you should use ape.
#! 
#! uriel     or fix it :)
#! 
#! __20h__   Or delete it.
#! 
#! Major-Wi  rm is a swell prgramm debugger
#! 
#! musasabi  nontrivial socket code + APE was not very nice so I
#!          am trying to live with 8c -p.
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: I got some changes to the templates of the wiki,
#!          I haven't sent them because I have seen that the ones
#!          in the distribution and the ones in the plan 9 wiki
#!          are not in sync anyway...
#! 
#! m4dh4tt3  when fixing it means re-writing it, the probability
#!          that it will get done approaches zero
#! 
#! rsc9      uriel: i think i restarted wikifs
#! 
#! uriel     rsc9: let me check again...
#! 
#! [...]
#! 
#! rsc9      gotta go. forgot about another appt.
#